SUGGESTION about aiming&running

Nukeproof · May 31, 2001

First of all this is a repost according to the new 'Suggestion guidelines'

Summary:

- Introduce a THIRD POSITION for telescopic weapons -> weapon in shoulder position, BUT NOT LOOKING THROUGH THE SCOPE
- Standart aiming mode is this new position.
- Scoped aiming is combined with the 'breath control' and available through keeping the 'aim' key pressed, MOVING IMPOSSIBLE!

(note: this idea was inspired by 'beagle_one' and I had my suggestion at the end of this thread but I didn't get a single comment... and I din't see any team comments on these 3 aim positions suggestions either)

More detailed explanation:

Unscoped weapons are unchanged.

Positions:
1. Hip Position as it is now, weak aiming and recoil leading to severe inaccuracy.
2. Shoulder position, but you are not trying to focus through the scope. Your view is of course partly blocked by the scope
Recoil-inaccuracy is much lesser as no.1
Aiming isn't as easy as with iron sights as the (blurred or dark) scope is hindering perfect aiming.
3. Scoped aiming as it is now, with the difference that you AUTOMATICALLY go back to no.2 AS SOON AS YOU MOVE
(move including strafing, standing up, laying down, maybe also leaning)
You need to keep the aim key pressed to stay in this position.

I'm not yet sure if the time limit of the breathe control should bring you back to pos. no.2 or just start breath again, still in pos.3 ... maybe I favor the first possibility a little to stop people sniping forever.

Think about this, scope usage and breathe control go hand in hand in RL, otherwise they are pretty pointless.

I see the following advantages to the current system/other 3 aimposition suggestions:

- no new key required
- sniping while walking/running/strafing is IMPOSSIBLE!!!
(I seem to remember a lot of complains about this...

)
- sniping gets harder
- you won't miss shots at point blank with Acog equipped weapons which is pretty unrealistic IMHO.

I felt encouraged to repost this after I read zefrans explanation about the difference in aiming while moving with iron sights and with scope. He also gave a brief hint how one could aim with an acog equipped weapon with the help of a finger (while running)...but seems I didn't understand it exactly. (don't know if it was my lack of experience with weapons in RL, my imperfect english or my tiresome condition...

)

Zefran, maybe you could try again or comment about my suggestion.

That's it thanx for your attention

yurch · May 31, 2001

Iwholeheartily agree with your idea, although i admit that there is a LOT more who have thought about this before you did

. (the post [started by me!]: running, shooting, and chewing gum at the same time refers to this same topic). i believe that we need to call more attention to this problem, because it will change the way EVERYONE has to play. Before everyone gets too comfortable (or all leave!) with the current style of playing, we need to get some sort of fix in there. I suggested moving the gun to the hip while running. no biggie. it will piss ppl off, but then "running and shooting" will become just as much as a anticipated bug fix as leaning was when they disabled that. Your idea is good, but the problem with it is that it is rather complicated and requires alot of work. The third aiming style alone may required a change in weapon animation for EVERY WEAPON!
but im glad to see someone joined the boat for the running an shooting problem. Keep posting your thoughts.

Nukeproof · Jun 1, 2001

Of course I can't mention everyone who ever said something to this topic, but these '3 aiming position' threads (don't know the title of the second) was already 3 weeks ago and is now on page 2 or 3...

I don't want to make moving+shooting impossible, just scoped running shouldn't work...

R-Force · Jun 1, 2001

Oh, this idea is much older... I don't know why nothing has been done yet for this. It would not need *that much* work to do, simply an alteration to the current gun models, no need to redraw the player model for this... We would not notice the difference...

RogueLeader · Jun 1, 2001

I agree with some of this. I don't think we need another aim mode. If you take a scope you need to deal with it, you chose to make your weapon long range. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You shouldn't actually be missing at point blank range now. If you are, it is because of a lack of skill. Practive the shooting range with hip mode, it actually gets easy to shoot things at short range from the hip after some practice, but most people don't want to put in that effort. But I agree you shouldn't be able to aim while running if you have a scope, and aiming while running with iron sights should also be hard. In addition to the view bob the weapon itself needs to move, which would make it even harder to aim and also make the gun more inaccurate.

BrownCow · Jun 1, 2001

If you had read that army guys review of inf, you would have cought the part where it is standard to run and aim at the same time. It is what they do. The run for cover while unloading at their targets.

What is the big deal with runing and aiming? If you don't like it don't do it. Do you have trouble killing someone who runs? Want them to take out running too?

"Selling is legal, ****ing is legal.. Why isn't selling ****ing legal?!"

The_Fur · Jun 1, 2001

he also said you didn't run at full speed if you wanted to hit anything. While in inf the soldiers still set olympic records while running and are able to aim dead on up to about 100m.

BrownCow · Jun 1, 2001

I don't consider the speed at which the inf solider runs to be anything close to full speed. They are slow compared to their walking speed. But when i run with my sig or what not, i'm not aiming to kill, i'm aiming to keep them busy so i can get behind something to aim properly. If i happen to kill you on the way to cover, it was either a lucky shot or i'm playing good that day

The sites on the sig bounce around like mad when you are running. It isn't that easy to aim good while running, but if you practice you can get pretty good at it.

Nukeproof · Jun 1, 2001

I was talking of 'this army guy' when I mentioned Zefran

I agree with you BrownCow that shooting and running with iron sights shouldn't be much harder... but I wouldn't mind a little more bobbing.

In Zefrans example he was talking of running on some kind of timber-stairs while shooting, which is obviously more difficult than running on plain ground.

About hitting with weapons at point blank: I don't think it needs any practice (in RL) to hit someone with a sniperrifle at 3m while not using the the scope, so it shouldn't in INF.

Another important aspect for myself is to make sniping harder. If one couldn't stay in scope mode any longer than holding breath it might solve it.

yurch · Jun 1, 2001

i had a "good" argument, but the dang comp locked up. rrgh.

The problem here is that you can aim just as good running as you can standing still. The gun may bob, it does't matter. Ask anyone with some good inf experience, they can tell you. (It may even be possible to turn the gun bobbing off thru some strategic ini editing!!) This is a bug; it needs to be fixed/disabled. the inf team would NOT put bobbing in if they wanted you to aim just as easily running as standing still. You can put a little sticker on your monitor where the robar sights rest when standing still. When runing, the shots will land within this sticker. Its actually easier, because the breathing system doesn't effect you while moving! (sorry, i just released a robar infection on infiltration) Its kinda dissapointing i don't see more compaints about this.
I shoot while running all the time. I can't help it, its become part of inf now. But as im sure sosilencer has said many times, why live with a bug, and reduce yourself to the level of using it as well? If i wanted these running and shooting "dogfights" i would be playing regular ut (good lord, has it come to this!)
I don't want running and shooting to be impossible, i would just like to see some missed shots now and then.

Nukeproof · Jun 2, 2001

shooting and running with iron sights shouldn't be much harder... but I wouldn't mind a little more bobbing.

maybe I should have said 'appreciate more' instead of 'mind little more' ok, but CS like inability to move&shoot isn't what I like.

And bobbing takes at least some affect. Look at these pictures, they were taken with the SIG (aim position), shooting in full auto while running:

Nukeproof · Jun 2, 2001

Didn't work to attach 2 pictures...

RogueLeader · Jun 2, 2001

That isn't bobbing recoil does that. It makes move up and to the side. Take a SG 551 with the LAM. Activate the LAM and then run. Although your view changes notice that the LAM stays stationary.

Nukeproof · Jun 2, 2001

maybe the LAM is the problem...

look at this: left was standing still, right was running.

Nukeproof · Jun 2, 2001

again...

first left row was at starting distance, second right was at ending distance (of the running track)

I' m damn sure there is some bobbing effect...

Maybe some team-member can clear this up?

yurch · Jun 2, 2001

you can't use succsessive shots to prove this. There are too many factors with kick involved. Go take a robar. aim it at a target far away with the breathing control. now, without changing your orientation, run forward/backward and fire the robar once(in aimed mode!!). After the first shot, you have to !!realign the sights!! and do it again. I assure you the bullet grouping will be very tight. I have tried this on the bots in sicily, and i can peg them all while running from rather impressive distances, even while circle strafing. If you watch the sight, it will move in a little figure 8. the center point of that figure 8 is where the shots will hit, regardless of where they are pointing.

Nukeproof · Jun 2, 2001

????

I agree bobbing running & aming should be more difficult.-

But the robar is the worst weapon to check out anything we are talking about.
I think my screenshots show quite clearly some sort of weaponbobbing. If you can analyze the code or find some better proof (or make the coders comment :))

it'l be fine but until then any analysis is based on subjective impressions and I don't see any convincing hint to my pictures, that bobbing is non-existend.

brief explanation: I used the sig with scope, choosed 'full auto' and aiming mode (throug the scope), pointed the gun to the ground and started straight forward running (in running mode of course). Shortly after I pushed the 'fire button' and didn't let it go until I felt too close to the wall.
I don't know wish more factors are involved in this procedure (beside my human imperfection wich is always relevant :))

SoSilencer · Jun 2, 2001

On the contrary the robar is by far the best weapon to use as an example because in real life that would be the most difficult to fire while running. You just wouldn't hit anything. In the game you can run at a full sprint and nail somebody without any problems, and you can reload and you can do it again and again and again.

Using something like a SIG on full auto is more testing your ability to counter the recoil of the gun than anything else.

yurch · Jun 3, 2001

there may be some effect on recoil while running, but thats really not what we are talking about here. We are talking about (first-shot) weapon accuracy. Kick throws your aim off, even while running still, so it really shouldn't be part of our "experiments".
The worst part is, most high powered scopes are impossible to look through at any angle except dead ahead.

wow, me and sosilencer are becoming a little team

Nukeproof · Jun 3, 2001

Sorry guys you don't get the point...

When you read my suggestion you see that I want to make moving & shooting with scoped weapons COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE! (Keep that in mind when you come up with your robar example again I DO AGREE THAT IT IS TOO EASY RIGHT NOW

)

I was discussing the point if we DO ALREADY HAVE ANY WEAPON BOBBING!

To investigate in this the Robar is by far the worst weapon!
When moving & shooting you sometimes hit and sometimes you don't so what does this tell you ? (missing could be related to bad aiming to weapon bobbing, whatever)

What I was trying, was to take a weapon with a constant rate of fire and running & shooting WITHOUT ANY COMPENSATION OF RECOIL OR RE-AIMING!
Afterwards I analized the bullewholes (see screenshot) and you can clearly tell apart 'RUNNING' and 'STANDING STILL'. Doing this withg the Robar would be pure nonsense through is damn low rof (estimate 0.3 /sec).

So better come up with something else if you want to convince me that bobbing is not existent at all

SUGGESTION about aiming&running

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