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View Full Version : map specific skins. good/bad


[L]the_Countess
28th May 2001, 05:22 PM
the first day this was hell
everybody was TK-ing because they didnt know what was going on

its better now thou now that everybody knows whats going on./
good idea :)

however
the skins on EP and especialy dockside are unfair to say the least

black skins are allways unfair no mather what the other sides skin is
but to put urban (i like to call it "o shot me whites") agianst it
or "neon bright" dessert yellow....
both skins give off light for gods sake

at first when i see it i though "mmmmm?"
after playing i think
"what where you thinking? where you thinking?"

the team in black win's every round
even if they are outnumbers (as long as its not over 1 on 2)

the artis vs urban is great thou
the skins in cubandawn are pretty good (hard a long way away but you can see it)

the skins of both teams should have simeler brithness levels at the verry least

Zundfolge
28th May 2001, 05:33 PM
My only problem with the map specific skins is the choices the team made for some of the maps. Urban vs Arctic or German F vs Woodland, is too hard to tell apart. If we all had 21in monitors running at least 1280x1024 at 32bit, then maybe you could tell the difference between them at range. Even then your vision is much less then 20/20

And please don't tell me about how similar camo is in real life... if your vision was as bad as the Inf soldier (which is limited by both our hardware and the game engine) you'd be given a medical discharge.

For the sake of playability, I ask server admins to pick clearly different camo for each map.

[L]the_Countess
28th May 2001, 05:42 PM
you have difficulty telling appart urban vs artic??????????
im running 1024res 16bit (glide) on a VERRY old 17''
and have absolutly no problem with it
even on long range with only a m16 scope

unless you run 640 in software rendering i dont see it being a problem
the artic is a bit darker then the urban and dusnt have "spots" on it
its more then clear enough

{GD}Ghost
28th May 2001, 05:50 PM
I know I had the same problems with the map specific skins at first but I made me be more observant and to use more weapon control. In Real Life, its called checking/comfirming your target. Do you really think that on the battle field, the enemy makes sure that their camos stylishly contrast your own so you know who to shoot? And black camo is one of the most common camos for this type of military unit when operating at night. Those of you intent on ultimate realism, should appreciate this.

I feel your pain because it pissed me off at first, but I had to realize that I had to take the time to verifiy my target before I pull the trigger in certain cases. Don't be a lazy soldier with an itchy trigger finger. If you are in doubt, there are ways to see what camo you are wearing and what camo the enemy is wearing.

[L]the_Countess
28th May 2001, 06:14 PM
i know all that and that is also no the problem

black maybe most use camo for this sort of thing but for gameplays sake it sucks
especialy against urban and dessert camo

this being a game it should be fair for both sides and both should have a chance to win
when you are white and your enamy is black you have no chance whatsoever

who would pull on white camo to fight when its dark?
"those of you intent on ultimate realism, should appreciate this."
cant argu with that

St0rmcaller
28th May 2001, 06:25 PM
""those of you intent on ultimate realism, should appreciate this."
cant argu with that"

Damn right. But then again...Of all the places I've ever been, all I ever ha was the mighty pickle suit (woodlands). And as a side note, during the Gulf War, only about 25% of US Marine units were issued desert cammies. The rest were still in woodland camoflauge utilites.

{GD}Ghost
28th May 2001, 06:45 PM
Personally, I think the blue Levis 501 uniforms are funny as hell.

The_Fur
29th May 2001, 03:56 AM
IMO both teams should get a camo that fits the level best, that means woodlands VS flecktarn for greenish levels, black vs blue for dark levels urban vs arctic on snow levels (though generally thee is not enough snow to justify the light camos).

I'm entirely against the BS combinations like Desert VS Arctic just to make it easy to spot and target the oponents.

funkstylz
29th May 2001, 04:14 AM
Do you the problem we face emerging here ? ;)

poaw
29th May 2001, 04:45 AM
Do you the problem we face emerging here

"Hello headquarters, I need a man that speaks Ozzie, both of mine are dead" :)

------------------------

I think the problem with some of the combanations is that they require a side by side comparision inorder to see the differences in the patterns, although this problem will nullify itself as people get more familiar with the differences.

funkstylz
29th May 2001, 05:28 AM
That was plain english...but if you like, how's

"Cobber"

"Jeeeezzzzzusss"

and...

"Bloody Hell" for ya

jaunty
29th May 2001, 05:30 AM
I speak aussie.

But only around Bogans. Like mayhem. I'll speak aussie around mayhem the bogan.

The_Countess
29th May 2001, 06:02 AM
yes i do see the problem you face

:obut that black vs urban and black vs dessert would not work seem obvius from the start

did you guys even test gameplay or just if all the bugs where fixed?
if you did stuff like this would have been painfully obvius

:o now i have to point it out in a painfully obvius way

Farouk
29th May 2001, 06:46 AM
I am still thinking Woodland vs Russian Tan is the best combination for almost all maps.
Both have good camo function on most maps and are also pretty realistic as default uniforms. Things like Arctic, Desert and Urban work only in the right maps. Because they are to specialized while green/brown are fitting almost everywhere.

I also made some botmatches on 640x480x16 with low detailsettings (on my 17" monitor) and I don't think they are too hard to distinguish.
I mean if we knew the team at the very first moment we see someone just from the looks, we could as well use team bacons. A horrible idea.

The German Flecktarn would almost go into the group but I think it still needs a little work. It's really looking too washed out (in real life it isn't that washed out) and personally I'd prefer not to have the German flag on it. The flags are a little too large anyway, looks strange when the polygons move in animation and I think the uniform fits the Inf theme better without the flags.

To increase contrast turn gamma down. I've heard so often: "The skins are bad. The black uniform is gray. Everything is washed out". No, it isn't when you set a proper gamma level. The similar uniforms are easier to distinguish and the bright uniforms are less "glowing". Also it adds more to the realism.
Though I can skip games on Sicily-Night and Kosovo Village because I see almost nothing without looking through a scope (or using a flashlight). That wouldn't be a problem if all the other players had similar low vision, but most turn their gamma traditionally up in multiplayer games to get an advantage.

funkstylz
29th May 2001, 07:10 AM
*Sigh*

http://www.funkstyz.com

Go here for wisdom

DredDamo
29th May 2001, 07:21 AM
Yeah, what's up with black vs white on dockside...that's just weird. There's one more level like that, that has black vs. desert.

What's really weird is that all the other levels seem fine - that is, they have combinations that are similar and make sense. green camo on green solid, white camo vs white solid - all of those, while slighlty difficult to distinguish (slightly, mind you, and I <b>do</b> run software 640x480, thanks for bringing that up), are the most realistic. Cant' we have, I dunno, black vs dark blue on dockside??

This is such a lesser issue when compared to the prone, lean and weapon delay :p

[L]-Damodred

Tommy Atkins
29th May 2001, 08:20 AM
This is such a lesser issue when compared to the prone, lean and weapon delay

And yet it's such a cool feature when set up properly server side...

Farouk
29th May 2001, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by funkstylz
*Sigh*

http://www.funkstyz.com

Go here for wisdom

Was that meant especially for me? I'm just asking because it's directly after my post.
I'm reading your page whenever you pimp it here, though I missed the latest "stuff" before. I was just voicing my opinion on the skins. It wasn't a suggestion to scrap the map-camo idea and do it the way I prefer.
(Just improve the German Flecktarn, please. It has the stuff it needs to kick Russian Tan as my personal favorite)

What I suggested though was that the Inf players should try to turn down Inf's gamma settings so far that the black uniform really looks black.

The_Countess
29th May 2001, 09:11 AM
think about it
black camo that looks black
but shadows look black
net effect : invisabilaty

its just not realistic to ask ppl to turn their brithness down so that it looks black

the idea for map specific camos rawks

just on some maps its unfair the way the skins are set

i havent seen the urban side win ones on dockside
and the dessert on EP only one's (black was 5 ppl dessert 8)

about it being a minor issue
mmmm well with a chance to win of zero i'd like to hear that again
and its so eazy to rectify (compared to proning) by the inf team afterall they set them.

imo black is just a unfair skin even when set against darkblue

The_Fur
29th May 2001, 09:49 AM
As for People complaining about bad graphics with their gamma maxed out... TOUGH LUCK!

I say STFU, cranking your gamma up so Kosovo night looks like daylight ranks you just as low as the scumsucking losers that downloaded the asus drivers or the pondscum aimbotters.

Doing so terminates your right to speak up about any matters concerning graphics.

poaw
29th May 2001, 09:59 AM
I don't know what some of you have down to your system and/or your skins, but most of the camos on my comp disappear completely if they in total darkness and not moving.

The_Fur
29th May 2001, 10:25 AM
aint it great :) I used that trick a lot in the few times i played TO, i'd just pick a nice dark corner near the hostages and set up my ambush for any unfortunate CT's that came to get my hossies.

All they would ever see is my muzzleflsh as my 9mm projectiles ripped the life out of their flesh.


It's one of the things UT got right, you can actually hide in the shadows.

[121st]Burton
29th May 2001, 10:58 AM
The standart skin kombos are not always good.
But the admins can change this to their (our?) likes.
They just have to modify the infiltration.ini (I think).

BTW: The German Flecktarn is way to light !!! It looks like it is washed out completly.

Version(0.a)
29th May 2001, 11:26 AM
All I know is I'm tired of being TK'd on MovingDayMassace :(

People like to shoot first and ask questions later ;)

DarkBls
29th May 2001, 11:34 AM
Me I hate to be killed by stupid people who jum from the helicopter in DM-IN-Vitenam without watching where they jump !http://shoe.free.fr/msmiley/sad.gif

The_Countess
29th May 2001, 12:28 PM
@ fur
not turning your brithness up only increases the unfairness of the black skin so my main point still stands

make a poll about how ppl have set their brightness
see what that dus

now if i had a practical way of looking into shadows it whould be less of a problem
to do that now i have to use a shotgun or the p90
exectly what i dont want to do

BTW: The German Flecktarn is way to light !!! It looks like it is washed out completly.
turn down your brithness if you think its a problem :)

SoSilencer
29th May 2001, 01:02 PM
Turning up your brightness to see people in dark shadows and places is imo cheating. Your trying to gain an unfair advantage by adjusting the brightness the mapper intended. As a mapper myself with a VERY dark map everybody says it's too dark so I want to turn up the lights but I -KNOW- that people will turn their gamma way up on top of the lighting I've added.

INF should have a configuration utility. Kinda like the Adobe gamma but for in-game only. Since sometimes shadow brightness is a gameplay issue in a map us mappers really need a way to know that what we are seeing is what everybody else will see. Of course this is doing the impossible to say the least :(

As far as camo's go I think we just need more variety. For any given map there just aren't enough camos to choose from that would do a good job. For example Peru has grey vs woodland on most servers which is a great combination. They are both similar and offer good camo but they are also relatively easy to tell apart. When 2.85 came out I experimented with making skins by taking the desert camo and changing the colors to a blue-ish green/grey/black camo and using that against grey on Kosovo was great. I made another arctic skin which was one of those white with snow covered trees camo types and it was great. To combat woodland a tigerstripe camo would be nice, and there are various desert, urban, and arctic styles which would be great to use as long as they weren't too bright. Until then I think most server admins should replace urban with grey (or even arctic) cus it's just unrealistically bright.

Goat Fucker
29th May 2001, 01:37 PM
I dont think that we (all of us) will ever agree on this one, not before we all had the exact same system.

I run in the 320x240 resolution, 16 bit colour, all textures set to low, and in software mode, as you can guess, im a big supporter of using as differend looking skins as possible!
(this is one of the reasons i only play offline, i accidentally TK more than anyone, including me, can accept)

But i think mostely anyone running 1024x or above with skin detail set to high cant see a problem even exists.

So this is where i ask people to not just think about themselves (though i know it wont work, and people probably wont even care to read this, even less reply).

People on a top of the line system allready have a huge advantedge over the low-end system people, that is a given, so using allmost identical skins will only give them an even bigger advantedge, further unbalencing an unbalanced situation :(

BUT, i dont support using skins that are so drastically differend on maps, that one team gets an unfair advantedge, aka black vs white on a black map (or the other way around).

Theres allways a grey zone.....

PROMAGNUM
29th May 2001, 04:44 PM
It is a good thing, it takes much more skill to play against people almost your same skin, plus it is much,much more realistic this way. I think its time to get rid of the blue uniforms verse white only servers anyhow... this has been another one of there best add ins.

funkstylz
29th May 2001, 06:55 PM
LOL! This has exploded! Firstly, I don't right articles for any one in particular Farouk. I love you guys live a rainbow, but I aint going through that just for one comment. My point how ever was relevant here, in that there is NOTHING we can do to totaly please everyone on this issue. If we make the cams totally different, then they either look unfitting for the scenario, or one sticks out like dogs balls. If we make them fitting for the level, then obviously they're gonna be similar. It's a no win situation, but I just had an idea that may help a little.

The_Countess
30th May 2001, 04:20 AM
just do something about the extreams like black vs white and black vs dessert

[121st]Burton
30th May 2001, 05:35 AM
@ The Countess:
My brightness level is okay.
I have woren this uniform quite sometime and it did not look washed out. Black was black and brown was brown. It was not as dark as the woodland camo, but darker than it is in the game.

If you don't like the camo kombos on your favority server, then simply mail the admin. I don't understand why you are complaining HERE !

The team cannot be responsible for everything. The did the standard kombos...so what ? There are more important things for them to do, than this stuff.

The_Countess
2nd Jun 2001, 03:59 PM
well my fav server is the Limey server

but we got a skin problem and allways have
my CL (the guy that pays for it and can admin it) says if he chances anything the server will f*ck up again

i have read somewhere you can edit the skins via a .ini file
gona try to get him to try that

but still you expect the defualt to be resonable fair
black vs white seems wrong from the start

funkstylz
2nd Jun 2001, 05:08 PM
What levels are you talking about Countess? I don't recall any that are that bad? Give me examples and I'll put to the team.

-kain-
2nd Jun 2001, 06:56 PM
0.5 is the UT default brightness - the setting at which the graphics look the best and black looks black (a good thing).

In the interest of having a good game most if not all players should use this setting - and if the sunlight is shining in on your monitor and you can't see a damn thing then tough **** - you should be outside during the day if the weather is that good. :p

One thing I don't like about the mod itself is the increased gamma when you use a scope looks ugly :( maybe this could be an optional thing in the menu?

(btw of course different monitors have different settings, but they can be changed, and you get the general idea)