clamped mags

[Pleuresaap]

I can't imagine this was never suggested but i can't find it anywhere so here goes: I'd like to see magazine clamps for.....eh.....magazines. for example there are clampes available for mp5 mags that clamp two mags together so the first time you have to reload it can be very fast, then the second time takes as much time as usual(=now). there are clampes available for the sig that can even hold three mags. another positive effect of clamped mags is that the added weight can reduce recoil a bit (might be usefull on the sig). on the m16, i don't know if there are clamps available but you could always tape mags together as the SAS does (or at least did in desert storm)
so how bout it guys?

[Zundfolge]

/me hands Pleuresaap a helmet
You're gonna need this when ShakKen sees this :)


Seriously though, clamped or taped mags are a bad idea in military application (too much gunk and dirt gets into mags causing stopages).

Taped/clamped mags are a LE thing, not so much a Military thing.

[Pleuresaap]

hmm, didn't think of the mud......but for maps like dockside...that can't exactly be called standard military operation. i think it's more like a CT scenario. I don't think inf is just about standard army but also about specops. In a standard army taping mags is prolly seen as john rambo stuff but it really has its advantages. so then how bout dropping the taping but since the mp5 is mainly a specops weapon (yes shakken i know accept the Omani border guards and maybe also some other unit somewhere) i think it would be cool to have em for the mp5. I know for sure the SAS has used/uses them for their CT operations and in nothern ireland sometimes. however the mud is a good one, didn't think of that.

[ShakKen]

*groan*. Not again.

You don't use clamped/taped mags on field ops unless you want a chamberful of dirt, a jammed weapon and a ticket to the man with the plan. Quite a few Afghan Mujahideen found that out the hard way during the Afghan war.

Trained hands can reload a magazine from a pouch in about just as fast as one can a taped/clamped mag. But don't take my word for it, ask the SAS. Personally, I've never seen them use clamped mags outside Hereford.

A loaded magazine also tends to be fairly heavy. Having your weapon pulling itself to one side doesn't add much to precision. The SAS didn't use taped mags in desert storm. The magazines with tape strips on them were used to sort equipment aquisitions. I believe Gary Hunter(B squadron CO at the time) removed this practice long before they deployed to the Gulf. It should be noted that Gary was actually deployed to Columbia during the Gulf War. Which was considered somewhat a priority FUBAR.

In any case, taped magazines do more harm than good and clamped magazines are only used in controlled combat enviroment(oxymoron tight there). Such as a hostage rescue deployment. Which, in the battlefield type conditions were going to see in Infiltration, are not to be seen.

[Snakeye]

taped mags, clamped mags, muddy mags - how familiar this all sounds..

Fact is, that it's not (officially) used by any army I know; another fact is, that's it's practised by many paramilitary groups though - but that doesn't mean it should be in INF. I guess nobody really need clamped mags in INF - so maybe after the team is bored after finishing 5.0 we might see them, but if not I don't care.

BTW: The SIG550 series doesn't need clamps - their (20rd) mags can be put together without clamps or tape, they have a provision for that; so theoretically you could put an infinite number of mags together..

Snakeye :D

[ShakKen]

I would like to add, there are soldiers that DO deploy with taped magazines. And the consensus is: they don't know better.

[Pleuresaap]

shakken:
out of Andy Mcnab's(ex SAS guy(also B squadron), actually an ass for writing books about the SAS) book Bravo Two Zero wich is about a patrol behind enemy lines in iraq wich got discovered and made a run for syria, they were 8, 3 died, 4 were captured and 1 escaped. they were using M16A1 with M203's attached (they just called 203's) and Minimes.
"We only loaded 28 or 29 rounds in our mags to loosen the springs a bit and so reduce the change of jams. WE ALSO TAPED OUR MAGS TOGETHER SO THAT WHEN YOU HAVE TO RELOAD, YOU'D ONLY HAVE TO TAKE THE EMPY MAG OUT, TURN IT AROUND AND PUT IT BACK IN."

out of Chris Ryan's (the only B-2-0 guy that escaped) book about the same patrol: We didn't load our mags up to the maximum amount of 30, but only put 29 rounds in them to reduce the change on weaponjams, and we taped our 203 mags together in pairs to speed reloading."

as you can see, twice exactly the same but in different words. so the SAS did use taped mags in desert storm.

quote from Mcnab's book Imidiate Action:
"we had two magazines attached to the weapon (an mp5) -one that was in the weapon, and then a bracket with another magazine just to the side of it, so i didn't have to go to my main beltkit in a rush"

however, this last quote was a description of a CT exercise. they didn't use them in their famous embassy assault. i know trained hands can reload very quick from a pouch but i think letting the magazine drop in your free hand, and immediatly putting it back in is faster then grabbing a fresh mag, let the old one drop in your hand, put the fresh one in, put the old one in pouch.

but then again, i didn't think of the mud.....

btw. you must have seen this suggested millions of times shakken :)

[Kossuth]

If I might add something without sounding too stupid. During my armed service I shot my assault rifle many times in the range and quite a lot of times in assault courses that had remote controlled targets popping up from various locations, so I can fairly say that I have some experience in assault rifle shooting (no actual combat, fortunately).

Sometimes during the assault courses me and my buddies tested the taped mag system that had two mags taped together so that their feed ports where both up. It was really faster to switch and didn't add to much clumsiness or weigth to use it in those short periods. Even though the courses where mostly situated in forest we didn't have any problem with any debris getting into the full mag besides the gun. We all tested carrying those double magasines full of blanks during training patrols, but didn't like them because in the long run they were heavier. But even then we didn't have much of a problem with the debris in the gun, even with blanks that are very prone to misfiring. And we have to remember that a real military operator (not me) does absolutely everything to keep his gun clean during mission, so many times the magazines in the belt were more easily filled with debris than the gun itself. So I don't have much bad to say about taped mags, but that just might be because I didn't test them enough.

Disclaimer: This is just an opinion about taped mags, so I don't actually need them in INF, but people gotta remember there is always two sides to a story. And what comes to the debris issue, I must say that the rifle I used is one of the most reliable in the world so the dirt might not be so big problem as it would be with some other rifles. The rifle I used was Valmet 76 7.62x39mm.

[The_Fur]

*gloats*

hehehe, Pleuresaap prepare to be sued for copyright enfringement :D

anyway i'd like to add:

http://www.planetunreal.com/infiltration/images/wallpaper/wallpaper03.jpg

[ShakKen]

Pleuresaap: From The Shooting Gallery, by Gary Hunter "One thing I didn't like was the habit they had of taping two rifle magazines toghether, one in the weapon right way up, the other mag reversed. This looked very cool, very TV-news guerilla chic, but it was a really, really bad idea. Nine times out of ten the mag that was upside down collected all kinds of crap so that when it was most needed, in the heat of contact, you'd get a stoppage. Followed immediately by a one-way ticket to paradise."

He also writes: "On 22 January 1991, an eight man patrol from B squadron with the code-name Bravo Two-Zero, led my by second-in-command Andy McNab, crossed behind enemy lines." Some stuff in the middle "They went into the Nothern desert in the worse winter out there in living memory, ill-equipped and very poorly briefed."

I can therefore be postulated that what B-2-0 did, they did out of utility to suit an emergency situation. A bad drill nonetheless.

From 'Weapons and Equipment of the SAS by Peter Darman: "- the spare magazine can get covered in dirt (which causes severe feed problems when loaded, i.e. it jams the weapon), while two magazines interfere with the balance of the weapon and effect aiming and handling. In any case, tests have shown that a skilled soldier can change a magazine for one in a pouch faster than if two are taped toghether."

Got some accounts by Navy Seals around here somewhere too on the issue. As a well as a few more SAS accounts. Now if I could only dig them up.

Not to mention those photos of dead Afghan Mujahideen with jammed AKs in hand. If a taped magazine can jam an AK, it can jam anything.

[poaw]

Not to mention those photos of dead Afghan Mujahideen with jammed AKs in hand

Jeebus, scary to think how much dirt that would.

[Aequi]

:) i like how people use references and quotes to support their arguments - considering that this forum proberbly has a high rate of gunhappy people i'd have expected people to be more likely to just "call each other out" :)

...personally shakken, i'd would just have said " ...how many did you say escaped ???" but ofcuase that just me ;)

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Mkay the US Marine Corp used taped mags with M1s and BARs around the time of the Korean War (mainly because the guns were so freakin worn out at that point that you could practically pour dirt down the barrel and it would still fire) However with todays firearms (and even with firearms from that day to an extent) They are predominantly worthless. They do cause strange center of gravity problems on the weapon itself, can cause jams (you have twice the weight the magazine catch was designed to hold pulling down on it think about it) and Shakken is dead right, a trained soldier can swap magazines out faster than a cat can lick his A$$ anyway so there is no need for them.

Further up somebody mentioned they tapped together M203 mags? WTF since when does a M203 have a mag? You feed a round directly into the breech.

If you want my vote I think it is a BBBBAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD idea for tape or clamps for mags, (Although I would like to see a setting in INF where the longer you have played the faster you can reaload to a point, IE representing practice)

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[The_Fur]

Further up somebody mentioned they tapped together M203 mags? WTF since when does a M203 have a mag? You feed a round directly into the breech.

He said they would call the m16 w m203 simply 203's so taped 203 mags are in fact taped m16 mags.

[Pleuresaap]

Thank you fur, that´s what i said. Anyway, after reading all the posts again i concluded that it is a bad idea, i´ve also seen good arguments on that. ppl use them either because it looks cool or because they don´t know better.
All i knew was that B-2-0 used it, and so did B-1-0 and B-3-0. little well known but they had similar missions to B-2-0: pointing out scud locations for airstrikes and sabotaging landlines. none of them succeeded but only 2-0 was discovered.

aequi:
only one of the three dead was actually shot. the rest died of hypothermia (or whatever ´onderkoeling´ is in english, Fur? you can help me out?) it was freezing cold in iraq at the time. they didn´t have any problems with jams.

I still can´t believe reloading from a pouch is faster but if tests say so, then i don´t want clamped mags anyway because the only advantage would then have turned into another disadvantage.

btw, shakken: does it actually make a difference to only load 28 rounds in a mag, or is that BS?

shakken: the ill equiped issue you talked about was VERY bad in desert storm, B-2-0 even considered taking of their m203´s because they didn´t have any grenades, but that would´ve required a different fore end for the m16 and those weren´t available too. at the day before deploiment they managed to get hold of a few boxes grenades from an A squadron patrol wich had hidden them under the seat of their landrovers. they also raced around the base with landrovers and LSV´s to get as much clamores as they could find. it turned out later that their was a whole tent full of the things but no1 knew of them.
they may have done it to suit an emergency situation but then why the ´we taped our mags together to speed reloading´ in the books?

anyway, forget about them in inf, it´s just not needed.

[The_Fur]

Hypothermia is correct PA, Anyway after hearing this I think I've seen the movie of the book (God that sounds stupid). They really got their asses handed to them.

[Pleuresaap]

there is indeed a movie about them. little less hollywood style then most action movies. anyone know under siege with steven seagal? i just can´t get enough of that one. exept the akimbo mp5k scene lol :)

[HanD_of_DarKNesS]

{LOD}WolfBear wrote:

Although I would like to see a setting in INF where the longer you have played the faster you can reaload to a point, IE representing practice

The soldiers in INF are assumed to be well trained soldiers (or even SpecOps). As such, I think they've attained peak effeciency as far as weapon reloading goes.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

OK Hand I will give ya that one, yet another case of where I engaged my mouth before my brain was in gear. ON the 203 front about mags, yeah I can see that now, again that whole engage/gear thing keeps messing me up

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[ShakKen]

Pleuresaap: I've never had any real problems myself with a fully loaded 30 rounder. But I have heard horror stories about some of the aluminium magazines made in the USA with poor springs.

A few times I got bolt over base stoppages with an M16A1 with the front of the round nosediving into the mag and the rear end of the shell caught between the chamber wall and the bolt group about 3/4ths out of battery.

I've got a good archive of SAS material. And out of several dozen Gulf war deployment photographs, I've only got one photo of what looks like a taped magazine(Bravo-2-1). In all other photos, they were single magazines with tape around their bases, which I suppose were for aquisitions. We used blue electrical tape to mark magazines holding our training munitions.

{LOD}WolfBear: heh, finger off trigger till sights on target mate ;)

[Pleuresaap]

ofcourse the three Bravo patrols were (supposed) to be in the desert for quite some time so maybe because of the horror stories you mentioned they didn't want to take any chances. but if that's the case then taping mags is REALLY stupid.....or maybe if you just believe loading 28 helps, it makes you feel more confident when you have contact with the enemy....dunno really.

i also have some photographs of SAS in the gulf war and it looks to me that the bravo patrols were the only ones to tape their mags.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

But Shakken if I do that my life wont be half as interesting (my talent tends to be to get myself out of the trouble I have gotten myself into.)

btw What military were you in that is driving me nuts

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

Professionals methods are both predictable and counterable, unfortunantly the world is full of amateurs. . . .

[ShakKen]

Whoops, scratch that, the photo was Delta-4-1.

{LOD}WolfBear: You only have yourself to blame for those NDs then. XD

The M16A1's got you confused right? Malaysian TA. That's right, I was a weekend warrior.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

There is alot of things that I can only blame myself for in this life Shakken ;) Thats why I own a gun and a vest. But if you ain't livin you aint learnin bud.

Seriously though I think the clamped mags are a BAD idea, but that is my opinion.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[Luminuis]

Then only way I can think I would ever used clamped mags is if I was in a enclosed building, in which case it would be CT and in CT clamped mags are a big waste of energy.


If you clamped 3 M16 mags together and then tried to shoot....lol...the M-16A1 jams enough as it is, and with side by side STANAGs I'm thinking it doesn't matter HOW fast it reloads, when it jams your out of the game.


However, I have seen taped AK clips, (they seem to be REALLY long) But they were never flipped, and they were used in Afghanistan and I believe some Hamas had them at one point as well...the AKs were jammed...


All I have to say if something jams an AK then it's obviously not a good idea with ANYTHING else.

[Luminuis]

Also, in regard to taping M203 rounds, you can, it's just kinda awkward, you tape the back of them together, and it tends not to work, the second round falls off, though I have seen them stringed up together with thin fishing wire, you just wrap it tight around the butt of each case and when you pop it open you grab the shell and yank it out, sliding the next in, but it dangles and is in the way, I've only seen it done by people using the 203s for light support, like having mini-mortars,


Really it's a bad idea anyways, as all taped, strung, clamped, and otherwise linked mags tend to be,

[Kossuth]

I would like to comment that I don't really believe that clamping two AK-mags would cause more jams in the hands of a trained individual, and it doesn't really cause much problems with aiming either. A skilled person can for short periods use clamped mags for AK-type of firearms and benefit from them. But for long time use, I really wouldn't recommend them, because of the chance of getting dirt in the open mag increases if you aren't paying attention to your weapon.

[Snakeye]

The fact that clamped mags cause aiming problems due to weapon unbalancing is surely true.
Wheter or not you'll have trouble with that depends on the range you are going to use it. I don't know how many of you know about ballistics, but the barrel and aiming line of a weapon usually are not parallel. The barrel points some degrees up, which makes the bullet go high(usually about 1-2cm) until the point where it again crosses the aiming line and goes down. Now if you don't keep the rifle straight the bullet will go (slightly) left/right and low. At short range that won't matter, but for long ranges that can influence the hit probability.

Since clamped mags unbalance the weapon, they cause that effect if not compensated(which might get tireing after a while).

Snakeye :D

[Puncher]

Well I don't know what short of tiny ranges you are talking about, but the effects are much stronger over bigger ranges than what you describe. My experience is shooting the G3 at ranges from 50 - 250 m, so for example at 250m, with the sight at 300 m (since there is the possibility of only 100m, 200m, 300m and 400m) the bullet hits about 15 cm above the point you are aiming at.

Tilting the weapon can cause you to miss quite a bit. For example at 100m I slightly tilted the weapon (I didn't notice, so it was maybe a maximum of 10 degrees), and instead of 10 I hit a 4 left high (that's about 50 cm off).