Colt commando

[C@RN!VORE]

Ok, i know the team dont realy give a dam about weapon sugestion but i realy think a colt commando should be in the game.
First , it will be a perfect sniper side arm, cous it light, fire fast, and perfect for CQ, witch is the weaknes of the snipers.
i know this gun has a wide use in the israeli army(i saw meany soldiers with it) and in other armys.
well, think about it, and take a look at this tool

[Luminuis]

Colt Commando perfect sniper sidearm?


How is a small AR a sidearm?


is the Commando considered a PDW? If so I believe that's a bit odd, as it is nearly the same as the larger M4, of course, it is a good gun, but a sidearm should be a handgun, not a Mini-M4 PDWs are issued to Tank commanders, Fuel Crews in the Air Force, and truck drivers, because those peopel cannot carry large cumbersome ARs, a sniper should always have a partner who has a SMG or a AR of some sort to clear the way and protect the sniper in CQB.

[ShakKen]

The Israelis don't actually use their commando's as 'sidearms' per se, but as their main weapon as long as their sniper rifle is not deployed. It's shorter length makes it handy for house clearing to get to a good snipers perch.

Better weapon than the M4 IMO. Personally, I feel the M4 is a pretty pointless weapon. It's barrel is 1.5 inches too short to be optimum length, and if you're going to go any more compact, you might as well go all the way to 11.5 inches.

[CAVERNA2K]

The Commando is much like the M4... 2 guns with the same stuff... ask something differenf.

[asmodeus]

hahah2 guns the same gun? look under: 3 MP5s:)

[Dr.Dase]

The Israeli have experienced problems with their CAR-15 (which they are) because they shortened them to Colt Commando size (or about the same, not sure) and they had problems with accuracy, this short barrel together with this ammunition isn't very accurate......

They selected this weapon because they felt that SMGs were to short ranged and too low penetrative to be efficient in an urban scenario.

[The_Fur]

They selected this weapon because they felt that SMGs were to short ranged and too low penetrative to be efficient in an urban scenario

Actually it was because SMG's lacked punch and range OUTSIDE of urban environments, I'm nnot sure but i seemed to have lost the link to the Israeli spec forces page so i can't check.

[Dr.Dase]

Here's the link to the Colt Commando info on Israeli Special Forces use: http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/commando.htm

The Israeli Defence Force, ie. the regular army uses a sawn off Colt CAR-15, but that's another story...

[ShakKen]

The israelis use to slice their CAR-15 barrels down to 1 inches. Which aside from making accuraccy erratic, is below the required length for reliable funtion of the AR-15 action.

With 11.5 inches, you still have good accuraccy to about 250 meters. Plus the fact this IS the minimum length for normal function.

[HanD_of_DarKNesS]

Why doesn't the INF team implement the Colt Commando INSTEAD of the M4A1?

[C@RN!VORE]

You know what? so it won't be sniper side but its an ass kicking smg, and **** those mp5( need to remind you that 3!!!! are on the plan?!)
i want to use my colt commando as a CQ weapon, and its much better than m14.
who needs m14 if you have m16?

Btw- what do you think about the new micro Galil?

[Snakeye]

Well, C@RN!VORE, the M14(as stated in your post) is a 7.62x51mm battle rifle - I suppose you meant the M4 carbine version of the M16 - of which the M4A2 is planned for INF.

I personally would rather like to see the M4 than the Colt Commando, just because I like it more, but if the team decided to take in the Commando instead I wouldn't mind. To classify the Commando as (heavy) SMG might cause some discussion over here(I remember some similar discussions before) - I personally would agree with that; the Commando and the AKMSU(along with MP53 etc) are for CQB and therefore rather SMGs than ARs(just my opinion).

BTW: That GALIL looks a little bit overloaded with accesoires..

Snakeye :D

[Dr.Dase]

The Galil Micro isn't a very good weapon, found this on a page about the Israeli Special Forces: "due to a serious flaw in its handguards design the handguards rapidly became hot during firing, to the point that it was impossible to hold the weapon. The overheating problem especially occurred in auto firing mode and in rapid semi auto firing. "

[Pleuresaap]

Snakeye: actually the M4A1 is planned typo? :)

i think by mp53 you mean HK53 wich is in essence an mp5 chambered for 5.56mm VERY sweet gun indeed.

and my opinion is weapons like HK53, AKMSU and Colt Commando are meant to fill the gap between SMG´s and AR´s. they don´t have the range to be really usefull as an assault rifle and they are just slightly heavier than real pistol caliber SMG´s not to mention the change on over-penetration at short range, for instance shooting a hostage true a terrorist or true a wall. however these Assault-SMG´s as i call them are used by SF when they need one weapon suitable for somewhere between medium and long and also for cqb to some extend.

[C@RN!VORE]

The team should take out one of the mp5(we have to many and i personaly dont like them) and to place a nice COlt commando.
This weapon is comonly used by the SF, swat, and somethimes a PDW for air or tank crew.

i think this weapon should be in INF


btw-about the micro Galil, the problems that you quoted fixed at the guns:
"New designed the handguards aim to solve the severe overheating problem of the previous version, including a M1913 Picatinny rail on top of the handguards".

ok , dont like the micro galil? check out this butiful TAVOR:

[C@RN!VORE]

oh boy i want that Tavor!

oh , and if you think that this is a duplicate of the styer, you better read the articale in the ISW site.
"As an assault rifle design to replace the M16 family, the TAR is a versatile weapon. It can be fitted with a M203 40 mm grenade launcher, a bipod, various optics, silencer and wide range of other tactical accessories. Moreover, it field strip to only two main parts - the stock and the internal mechanism".

[DredDamo]

That looks kinda neat...but I have no idea about its perf. :) I trust the team; just wanted to comment that it looks neat :)

Damodred

[Snakeye]

Actually I meant M4A2. IIRC ShakKen once mentioned we're getting the A2, which is basically a standard M4 carbine. The M4A1 has a flattop receiver and the RIS. But could also be wrong with that.

Yep, I meant the HK53, just getting confused with this HK MP5, HK53, HK G3, HK G11 etc..

I don't think any of the MP5s should be taken out. OK, the Navy and the MP5/40 are quite the same, but then INF without a 9mm MP5 just wouldn't feel right. The PDW fills a totally different role and might be a good sniper backupweapon.

The TAR21 might look good, but it still has technical problems(according to ShakKen or Gryphon or so..).

Snakeye :D

[poaw]

What's with all the new bulpups with a 21 in their designations?

Instead of the crappy Steyr AUG how about something that doesn't suck.
The SAR-21

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.

[Pleuresaap]

snakeye: I've read shakken's post on that one, he is ofcourse right but that is the type upper reciever. The one we are getting in inf has the m16A2 reciever, there is also a M4 type reciever but we are getting the M16 one. Their are two versions of the M4 itself:
The M4: semi and 3 rd burst
The M4A1: semi and full auto

We are getting the latter in inf. with the upper reciever of the M16A2...you following? it is confusing for sure but i think this is what we're getting

[Nerf Herder]

Ah yes the IMI Tavor TAR-21. The newest gun that I'm obsessed with. Comes in three flavors:

Regular:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/tavor-tar.jpg
TAR-21

Small:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/tavor-ctar.jpg
CTAR-21

And extra crispy...I mean small.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/tavor-mtar.jpg
MTAR-21


Caliber: 5.56mm NATO
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: 720mm CTAR 640mm MTAR 480 mm
Barrel length: 460mm CTAR 380 mm MTAR 250mm
Weigth: 2.8kg emty, 3.63kg w. full magazine & sling
Magazine capacity: 20 or 30 rds
Rate of fire: 750 - 900 rpm

[C@RN!VORE]

Please, give us something cool, some futuristic weapon like the Tavor or the Sar, but not another colt or crapy H&k.

btw. great pic poaw, where did you get it?
man that Tavor looks fine!

[poaw]

That's not a TAR-21, it's a SAR-21. It was made in Singapore. It's featured in their latest recruiting commercial. And unlike TAR this one has been given rave reveiws and will actually be used to replace the M16, unlike ther TAR. Which the Israelis aren't likely to implement in favor of of M16s and M4s they get as freebies from the US.

[Luminuis]

A Singapore Assault Rifle?


I though SARs was Search And Rescuse, and that guns didn't have that Acronym because Radio usesrs might hear SAR-21 and think that it meant a Search and Rescue Operation...

/me shrugs

Even if it was made in Singapore it's a TAR, which means Tavor Assault Rifle. IF it is the same design as the Tavor then why rename it no matter where it's made?

Or is this another version....and what's the Producer/manufacturer for the SAR?

[poaw]

It is NOT the TAR, it is a totally different weapon.

It is manufactured by STKinetics in Singapore. Oh yeah, there is one variant of the TAR you forgot.....

[Nerf Herder]

Didn't have a pic of it. There are 2 more I think. A sniper and a HBAR for continued automatic fire.

Oh yeah and

IMI Tavor TAR-21:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/tavor-tar.jpg

STK SAR-21
http://world.guns.ru/assault/sar21_1.jpg

[Snakeye]

I meant M4A2 - and after performing a quick search I found that post from ShakKen:
Sebu_NZ: The m4a2 has the full 'A2' fixed carry handle receiver. Not the 'A3' rail upper of the M4A1.

The m4a2 also uses the slimmer handguard seen on the XM177E2, as opposed to the thicker, double liner handguard on
the M4A1.

While the US army issue spec M4 carbine is by default limited to semi and 3-round bursts, the m4a2 in Infiltration will have
full selective fire.

Should be somewhere there:
http://forums.planetunreal.com/showthread.php?postid=328083&highlight=m4a2#post328083

Snakeye :D

[Col.Sanders]

Shakken:

I agree with the gist of your statements on the Colt Commando; however, the M4's 14.5" barrel length was selected for two reasons:

Compromise of velocity versus compactness;
and the distance from the bayonet lug under the front handguard to the flash hider is the same as the 20" M16 so the same bayonet can still be attached to the weapon.

From the trials with the Colt XM177e2 ("CAR-15" of Vietnam fame), Colt felt the 11.5" barrel was the shortest reliable, and fitted a 2" suppressor to the muzzle to lower the blast. Nowadays, there are people making reliable M-16's as short as 7", but they use custom gas-tube assemblies and are more curiosities than effective weapons.

[ShakKen]

Col. Sanders:

Compactness VS velocity is actually a poor excuse given a measly 1.5 inches, but you have a good point about the bayonet. Technically though, M16 bayonets have a poor thrust angle. They ought to be redesigned like the new French FAMAS ones that sit to the side of the barrel.

I habe seen 7" AR-15s yes. Most of which were remanufactured to fire using blowback actions actually. Don't know what you want to hit with a barrel that short though=P

[Col.Sanders]

According to every reputable report on the terminal ballistics of the 5.56mm NATO, 2700 fps is a critical minimum velocity for maximum effect. Perhaps the 14.5" barrel, being 3" longer than the 11.5", pushed the distance at which the bullet slowed below 2700 fps to an acceptable distance.

The original XM177E2 with 11.5" barrel and ~3" suppressor could also fit a bayonet, but the terminal would have been less than with 3" of real barrel.

And we all know the FAMAS is superior in every conceivable aspect to any firearm ever or to be made.
But as we saw in Israel, if M16's are plentiful and good enough, and Galils are costly and better, cheap and OK wins.

[Snakeye]

And we all know the FAMAS is superior in every conceivable aspect to any firearm ever or to be made.

Is it possible I read a bit of sarcasm between you lines :D

BTW:
If I'm really right about the M4A2 (since no team member - like ShakKen, or so - who might have read that post commented on it, I'm not sure..) why is it still called M4A1 in the armory?

Snakeye :D

[ShakKen]

Using a ballistic calculator, this 'acceptable distance' is no more than 150meters.

From both 11.5 and 14.5" barrels, the round doesn't reach maximum stability till 100 meters, so they both have more or less the same lethality.

The M4 has only 50 more meters worth of significantly higher lethality. Rather than another 100-150 if they'd used a 16" barrel. Methinks US military planners jumped the gun on this one.

Btw, I'll let the FAMAS crack slip this time.

The only flaw I find with it, is that it is a bullpup design. And hence is not easily fired from the opposite shoulder.

Otherwise; |+ 0\/\//\/35 j00 477! 477 j00r >4rb|/\/35 4r3 b370/\/g +0 u5! :D

Snakeye: typo.

[jaymian]

Shakken, but not stirred:)
Just needed to get that outta the way.
Jaymian

[Snakeye]

Wonderful, what exactly do you mean with typo?

Typo in your post, in my post, in the armory??
I don't want to be too annoying, I'd just like to know wheter or not I'm posting wrong information..

Snakeye :D

[ShakKen]

typo in the armory

[Col.Sanders]

from the data at: http://www.bushmaster.com/images/faqchart.gif
for 10, 11.5, 14.5, 16, 20, 24, and 26" barrels, I compiled a spreadsheet and ran it through a ballistic calculator. I'd love to see their data on extreme spreads, because that might lay all of our arguments to rest. What if a "fast" 11.5-inch barrel matched or beat a "slow" 14.5-inch barrel? Individual variances would make comparisons between averages moot.

Anyway, I grabbed Excel and plotted velocity for each barrel length. I was on a roll and figured that including the 20, 24, and 26-inch lengths would show how much could be wrung from the 5.56mm.

Remember, that 2700 is the lower threshold for complete fragmentation, and 2500 is the lower threshold for partial fragmentation (two pieces).
source: http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html
specifically the image: http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/wund5.jpg (which is 84k)

The chart is attached:

[Col.Sanders]

take 2....

[asmodeus]

they look a bit too linear for me...

I mean, speed is a function of acceleration, and acceleration is a function of force...

but the friction in a high speed bullet IIRC is roughly proportional to the speed squared... then we have

v=v0+a*t

a=F/m

Ff prop v²

=>v=v0+(Constant*v²*t)/m

=>(Constant*t/m)*v²-v+v0=0

that is a quadratic equation: giving a parabolic curve

in the case of a decelrating bullet, it should be concave down.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

If I'm not, you ballistic calculator makes a false assumption of linearization!

[Col.Sanders]

The problem behind your assumptions is that the actual drag on the bullet varies according to its velocity. As the velocity decreases, the drag on the bullet decreases, and the deceleration is less-- until we hit the transsonic range, 1.2-.8 times the speed of sound, where the drag may spike severly.

And if you look, the curve is not straight, it is concave upward. Plus the entire flight time to 250 yards is approximately a quarter-second.

Not trying to be rude, but I'm glad to see someone is thinking and not blindly accepting a pretty graph! I myself have compared the ballistic calculator to other published info, which it matches pretty well -- except they don't supply detailed atmospheric info which the calculator corrects for.

[asmodeus]

woha, the cruve is pretty slight agreed on that

and yes, it was my assumption, Drag is proportional to velocity squared

[Col.Sanders]

I worded that poorly. I meant, that yes, drag varies with velocity, but you didn't mention that drag decreases as velocity decreases. So the bullet is loosing less velocity per second at 2000 fps than it was at 3000 fps.

[asmodeus]

yes, it does decrease, I said that Drag is proportionnal to velocity, that means that wehn velocity decreases, drag decreasese too:)

[The_Fur]

but does it decrease with the same proportions as the speed? If it does the effect will remain the same.

[asmodeus]

it means that roughly :

Drag=Constant*v²

so if velocity doubles, then drag is multiplicated by 4.

and if velocity is cut in half, so drag is divided by 4

PS:

The constant is 0.5*Area*air density*a_shape_coefficient

Area=(pi/4)*Diameter²

now the shape coefficient would probably be similar to a cone, that is roughly 0.5

this is only valid for subsonic flows though and gets much more complicated for supersonic flow, although I don't remeber much about that...

[Col.Sanders]

The point is, and these are totally made-up numbers, that at 1000 m/s, a bullet might shed 50% of it's velocity per second, but at 600 m/s, it may shed only 25% of it's velocity per second. So at 1000 m/s it is slowing at 500m/s per second, but at 600 m/s it is slowing 150 m/s per second.

[asmodeus]

hence the not straight curve

[6mm]

For the love of Ice-Cream, INF TEAM PLEASE put in the M4A2 please please, soon, please please. Forget about the commando, we allready have 3 MP5s. Just please dont leave out the M4A2.

[Cardinal]

Technically, NO M4A2 exists as far as the military concerned. It's a term invented by civilians, like the "M4A3"
Of course Colt will be happy to install the fixed carry-handle on a current M4. But it is not called M4A2, it would be Model R09xx.
Btw, the first production runs of the M4 had the fixed handle.

Current productions runs:
The M4 is a flat-top and safe-semi-burst selector
The M4A1 is a flat-top and safe-semi-auto selector

Incidently, the US SOCOM is switching to a heavier barrel profile on their M4A1's, because the barrels didn't last as long as they thought when using full-auto fire.

[ShakKen]

Cardinal: We're following the commercial designation as given by Bushmaster. Not the designation given by the US military.

If they had it their way, every peice of hardware would have the designation 'M1'.

[ShakKen]

And the lifespan of the barrels is a moot point when they tend to EXPLODE around 150 rounds of continues full auto.

[Cardinal]

Shakken: Ok.

Personally I don't like fixed handle version anyway. The flat-top is much more flexible. Put a Yankee Hill rear sight on it with the Aimpoint Comp M2 in front. Then add the KAC RAS with the Sure-Fire M900 underneath, Beta C-Mags and the ITT 6015 on-top of the RAS. Now you got my kind of a gun. :D


And DO the M4's barrels explode after 150 rounds on full-auto? If so, I'd say the quality of the barrels needs improving significantly.

[Col.Sanders]

Cardinal: the question is, does adding a flat-top M4 significantly increase our ability to kill people? I don't think so.

Secondly, the mess about the 150-rounds-and-the-rifle-explodes. I read the memo someone else linked to here, don't have the URL offhand, but it sounded like a training restriction: don't put mags through the rifle as fast as you can reload and mash the trigger. The memo mentioned a recommended rate-of-fire of 4 rounds per minute, which sounds like a shooting range, not combat. Also, it seemed to be describing an accelerated wear issue, not a "spontaneous disassembly" event.

[ShakKen]

Cardinal: The flattop is aftually rather stupid considering the frontsight of the weapon get's in your line of sight. The M4A1 is pretty much a half baked weapon.

They couldn't be bothered to change the bayonet or handguard so they'd be able to use the optimum length 16" barrel, the piccatinny rail requires the carrying handle to be detached with is to say in the least inneficient and logistically unsound given one might LOSE the carrying handle and the fact that the frontsight get's in the way unless you employ an optic that raises the view of the shooter to the point you might as well have mounted it on top of the carrying handle.

Makes you wonder why they didn't bother make the picatinny gas block part of the package.

And oh god are the flip up iron sights flimsy garbage.

http://www.lepsa.org/Trainer's%20Archives/Firearms%20Safety/M16%20cookoffs.htm

Incidentally, US SOCOM is NOT employing heavier barrels because none are in production. They are simply retraining their personnel to fire more conservatively.

Which is a load of balls because when you need full auto in a firefight, you need it BADLY.

[The_Fur]

lol, they sure do make crap weapons don't they :)

[Cardinal]

Shakken:

The Yankee Hill rear sight is NOT a flip up sight. http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/scopes/Images/yhm-641.gif


The M4 wasn't designed for the US Military, it was designed for a middle eastern country.




And the heavy M4 barrel is in production. I've seen them for sale on ar15.com several times.
Quote: "Colt has supplied several thousand M4 heavy barrel carbines and spare barrels(RO921HB) to SOCOM units over the current fiscal year. Since the SOCOM troops tend to be issued M4A1 auto carbines, the heavy barrel makes sense. Marine sources told me the USMC is in the process of buying 35,000 M4s from Colt for general issue to almost every Marine, replacing the M16A2, A3 and A4 rifles. Since the Navy/Marine command prefers the burst weapon, I am not sure which M4 barrel type they will be acquiring."
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=18378#lastPost

[ShakKen]

Cardinal: That's even more redundant since the REAR sight will get into whatever sight picture you have though a scope.

The M4 was designed in 1983 on request of the United States Marine Corps. Which is a derivative of the model 653 m16a1 carbine. Middle Eastern country indeed.

ALL M4s are built with heavy barrels with a step cut. There are no heavier barrels available apart from the ones that are current issue. I've seen too many people mistake a model 653(which have light barrels) for an M4. Which is probably what's happening here.

The cookoff article I've posted refers to the M4A1 that is issued WITH a heavy barrel by default.

Which still blows up.

[ShakKen]

http://www.gunsmoke-inc.com/barrels/14_m4.gif

The item mounted in M4 carbines.

http://www.gunsmoke-inc.com/barrels/14m4bbl_small.gif

You won't find THIS issued to the military because it's wider than the mount for the M203 allows.

[Col.Sanders]

Such a shame. I have witnessed hundreds of rounds fired through a heavy (no M203) barrel in a few minutes with no cookoffs, jams, or barrels exploding.

The M4 may be a half-baked weapon, but other, superior configurations exist, and they can be dropped on in seconds. Then again, it's not a light machine gun and never will be.
But I think Shakken's devotion to his FAMAS will never be shaken. :)