M82a1, Oicw?

[RogueDog]

what i want to see is an m82a1 barret .50 sniper rifle in another game other than delta force land warrior. god i love that thing... i guess it's not a very practical weapon for a game like INF, because there really aren't many extremely wide open areas that are good for that kind of weaponry. ah well, just a thought....

i think i just want to see the gun ingame to see some bodies fly through the air as the bullets connect.

aside from the "light fifty", i'd also like to see an OICW. as ugly and bulky as they look, i really like them.

ah well, i'm sure you've probably thought about these before, and i doubt you'll take these requests seriously (i wouldn't....) but i'd just like to say that INF is the best mod i've ever played for UT by far, keep up the good work guys :oD

[poaw]

Somebody back me up on this one.


Weapon suggestions are generally.........

[Edge(Tribe)]

welcome but disregarded.

[HanD_of_DarKNesS]

Weapon suggestions are generally disregarded by the INF team, though the encourage us to discuss such ideas anyways (that's the official word on these new forums).

regarding the OICW, it isn't expected to hit service until 2006-2007, and thus won't be implemented into Infiltration until that point (The INF team is decided on only implementing weapons currently in military service: the Desert Eagle and H&K G11 are sole exceptions due to previous plans).

As far as the M82A1 goes, a semi-auto .50 BMG would unbalance the game (even despite the massive bulk value). INF already has a .50 BMG bolt-action (the Robar RC50), and a 7.62x51mm NATO semi-auto (the H&K PSG-1).

Finally, regarding the bullets throwing people into the air upon being hit. IRL (as opposed to Hollywood) it just doesn't happen. Remember that the shooter of a weapon takes just as much force to himself, as the bullet is capable of transferring to the target minus the negating effect of any recoil-suppression built into the gun). In reality, a target hit by a bullet will likely just drop like a rock after being shot. Even something like a .50 BMG won't lift a man up and throw him around. The only thing close to an effect like this is a target in motion being hit and losing balance: falling over.

[ElectricSheep]

Finally, regarding the bullets throwing people into the air upon being hit. IRL (as opposed to Hollywood) it just doesn't happen. Remember that the shooter of a weapon takes just as much force to himself, as the bullet is capable of transferring to the target minus the negating effect of any recoil-suppression built into the gun).


This isn't always the case. Remember, force is a function of acceleration, and the acceleration of the bullet out of the rifle is not likely to be the same as the decelleration the bullet experiences when it hits a target. I would venture to guess that the impact forces are signifigantly higher than firing forces.

Momentum, on the other hand, is conserved for the entire system (shooter, gun, gases, bullet, target, etc...). So, if your shot imparts enough momentum into a man-sized target to throw it through the air, your in for a helluva ride yourself....

I would guess that in most cases, people fall after getting shot because they are either dead, or the shock of getting hit by a rifle caliber round caused disruption of muscular functions in the area of impact. Non-working leg muscles generally means your going to find yourself eating dirt in a short period of time...

[Pleuresaap]

OICW is a piece of crap!
at least that's the way i see it.

[jaunty]

Its been said once, i'd like to say it a 2nd time....

May ShaKKen have mercy on your soul.

[ShakKen]

I'm too busy working on the Remington 870 at the moment. Feel free to fill in for me.

[CoffeyCan]

Explantion of the conservation of momentum, and why people dont fly when shot:
http://drumright.ossm.edu/physics/gun-momentum.htm

the thread from which it came:
http://forums.planetunreal.com/showthread.php?threadid=40406

Read and enjoy.
CC

[RogueDog]

good god, i didn't really expect to have that much of an elaborate reply there... when i said "fly back" with the m82a1, i didn't mean literally, and as for the oicw being a piece of crap, well what's your reasoning behind this? i agree, the gun looks like a lazer tag or a squirt gun, but i wouldn't make fun of the gun when someone was pointing it at me (of course i wouldn't make fun of anything about the person if they had any sort of gun pointed at me, but that's beside the point)

[ElectricSheep]

Well, you have to remember that many posters here consider Infiltration a hardcore realism mod; a squad level combat simulator, if you will.

Statements like "see some bodies fly through the air as the bullets connect. " are going to trigger responses as to why you will <em>never</em> see this in Infiltration (or IRL, for that matter). There are three reasons I can think of as to why a body would be flying through the air after being shot:

1. The guy getting shot was in the air to begin with
2. You shot the guy in the ass and he jumped up grabbing his wounded gluts and screaming in pain.
3. The 'bullet' was actually a 120mm HE shell that didn't really hit him, but just landed at his feet.

I think the likelyhood of any of the three occuring with any sort of regularity in Infiltration is pretty slim.

[Sebu_NZ]

When you fire a gun your muscles would absoub the force wouldn't it?

[Puncher]

Well kind of. You definately jerk back (the amount depends on the force delivered by the weapon and your bulk), but you wouldn't necessarily recoil straight up, but more random, for a single shot on some position to rest the front of the rifle the recoil would perhaps even force the rifle's aim down.

[RedStorm]

I certainly don't want to take an OICW on a field trip. When sand or something else comes in the gun, it's totally screwed up. And this is discussed thousands of times before. Just go and look for the one million people who suggested this before.

[Luminuis]

With the barret if it hit something harder than it could pierce the speed and power of the round would easily move it a medium distance, I'd say 3 feet at MAXIMUM though,


Now, about the Barret, it is INCREDIBLY heavy, which negates MOST of the recoil, it also makes the gun quite easy to aim on a tripod but without a tripod makes it nearly immpossible. The Barret cannot, I stress CANNOT be fired by most human beings while they are in an upright position, the recoil withit it being attached to the ground by a tripod is enomous, From what I have seen and personal experience, I'd sya the Barret is just way too bulky for an INFer to carry about, it also has a two man team of spotter and sniper, because the gun is disassembled to be carried, and only the spotter carries a handgun, as the barret is meant to take down light vehicles, not human beings and a sniper with one should never let the enemy get close enough to shoot at him...


As to the OICW, what a piece of movie grade ****... a 20mm high explosive round? ICK!

[Sebu_NZ]

The Israeli (very few, im don't think its the standard issue, im sure of that) snipers use it.

It has great accurate to 1 mile I think.

[RogueDog]

yea, the israeli military is using it against the arabs, and i heard it's accurate up to a mile and can blow a hole in a manhole cover that's big enough to fit your entire arm through from 500 yards away (i think 500...) i can see how that would make the game unbalanced.... el well, it was worth a shot.

[Dr.Dase]

The Israeli uses the Barret as a HTI, ie. a Hard Target Interdiction rifle, not a sniper rifle, they use it against hard targets, such as armored vehicles and bunkers etc. Here's what it says on a page about Israeli Special Forces: "The Barrett “Light Fifty” Model 82A1 is the most popular 0.50 caliber rifle in the world was originally designed for extreme long range sniping (over 1000 meters). However, its semi auto mechanism combined with mediocre human engineering and the lack of proper 0.50 match grade ammunition contributed to the fact that the M82A1 is a rather low accuracy rifle.

Therefore, the weapon's destination was switch from sniping to Hard Target Interdiction (HTI), hence shooting at Armored Personal Carrier (APC), cars, through walls, etc. "

Here's the addy to the page: http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/barrett.htm

[Dr.Dase]

As for the OICW, it's one helluva peice of machinery, don't be fooled by it's bulky appearance or it being in Delta Force: Land Warrior, in DF, it's basically a combat rifle with a grenade launcher. In fact, it's a lot more. The weapon is practically a H&K G36 with a 20mm cannon and a kickass scope on. The scope is a lot more than a simple magnification thingy, it's a targeting computer. It has a laser rangefinder, and this data can be transfered to the 20mm cannon, and the ammunition can be set to explode after a set range, so if an enemy is hiding in a foxhole 50 meters away, you can set the ammo to explode after 50 meters and aim over his head, and it will explode over the poor guy. It can also be set to explode after penetrating a set number of obstacles, such as walls, so if an enemy is hiding in a house, you can set the grenade to explode 1 meter inside the wall.

Simulated combat trials have shown the OICW an awesome improvement of the M16A2, but i can't find the data i had on this....

[The_Fur]

[quote]Simulated combat trials[quote]

Let's see how well it holds itself in not so simulated dirt, mud, rain and other such nasty anti-electronics stuff.

[RogueDog]

well fur, i think they took those things into consideration, it's not like we're the best military in the world or anything. i still think the OICW is impressive.

[RogueDog]

let's also not forget that the OICW is manufactured by Heckler and Koch, so we're not talking about 3rd world country weaponry here.

[Draco-1]

Actually, if you could muscle the nose-weight of a Barrett 82A1, it would be easier to fire than the robar from a standing position. The robar fires the same round, with the same load. This means identical recoil. Except that the Barrett has a chevron muzzle brake to reduce recoil, along with a retractable barrell. This eliminates roughly 30% of the recoil.

Now the gun I'd like to see instead of the Robar, would be the Barrett M95. It's a bullpup, bolt-action M82. THough i don't think it's in any real military use. :(

[Snakeye]

The OICW is basically a G36 with a 20mm cannon??

I don't know your definition of cannon, but mine denies one being shot by a human while shouldered. For me a cannon fires a projectile at rather high speed. 20mm like the M61A1, and the vast amount of 20mm autocannons from WWII to the present are all mounted weapons -> they need some kind of platform(i.e: tank, aircraft etc) to be fired.
The main difference between a 20mm GL and a 20mm cannon is the way they do damage:
A 20mm GL relies in the HE load rather than on kinetic energy.
A 20mm cannon relies rather on KE for armoured targets and on HE for soft targets, though it's HE rounds have much more KE than those of the GL.

I know, that there are some(very few) rifles that chamber 20mm cannon rounds, but AFAIK no military uses them, since they're even bulkier than a M82A1.

So if the OICW has anything in 20mm, then it's a GL. I don't know enough about the OICW(just what I read on this MB), but since it's not in use by now, it won't be put into INF anyway - and regarding most MB experts agreed a M4 with M203 does basically the same job, only lighter and cheaper, I don't see any reason wanting one in INF. Perhaps this discussion would make sense, when the OICW enters service..if it ever does..

Snakeye :D

[Dr.Dase]

Of course you're right, i agree fully, no use in Infiltration, the weapon hardly even exists :)

The reason i call it a cannon because that's what i've read, it fires cannon rounds and not grenades, the exact difference is not known to me, but i suppose it has to do with the velocity, grenades are generally fired at low velocities in high arcs, while cannon rounds are fired at high velocities in low arcs. If you look at the barrel of the 20mm cannon it's very long, much longer than a common rifle barrel, and the rounds will probably have high velocity exiting.....

I wish i could find the page i got all this info, if anyone can find it, please post it here! :)

[Luminuis]

Simulated Combat Trials are always less than one day, and usually only a few hours, or less,


A gun in combat may be used for several MONTHS, even with proper care and cleaning, those electronics will get knocked about and dirtied pretty well.


The OICW is just not a gun that I see in INF, especially since it won't be in service tille 200(6)

The Barret's mechanism is actually pretty good, but there is no good ammo for it,

And humans are the main reason it is a rather low accuracy at long range rifle, a human can only be so accurate, a rifle can be infinitely accurate if it was fitted with lasers and cumputer controlled, a human is what screws most shots up.

[Sebu_NZ]

Add to that its hella UGLY!

AKs have it all damnit, looks reliability its making me moist just thinking about it.

[Snakeye]

Hope this works:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw-002.jpg

If that worked you will see a comparison of the 20mm GL rounds to a 5.56; anything that short can't be a cannon round, though the projectile itself could be taken from a 20mm cannon round.(if that didn't work check http://www.fas.org).

Though the 20mm GL is supposed to have greater range than the 40mm currently in use, it still doesn't qualify as cannon IMO. Just take a look at a real cannon barrel(M61A1 or so) - they are usually longer than the whole OICW.

Snakeye :D

[Dr.Dase]

Does it really matter what we call it? :)

Anyway, here's a page with info: http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/sci/9809STMIM.html

[Snakeye]

Yes, it matters what we call it. A 40mm cannon is something very different to a 40mm GL; imagine a M42 Duster with twin 40mm AA guns, now imagine a soldier with a M79 40mm GL. See the difference. I guess some parts of weapon classes are really more or less the same - wether you call a Colt Commando a heavy SMG or a short-carbine doesn't really matter, because it stays a weapon for the same purpose. But a GL and a cannon are something very different.

The article is quite interesting, I found one sentence, which I especially like:

If the demonstration project is successful over the next several years, the Pentagon plans to make an initial purchase of 45,000 OICWs, to be in the hands of elite light-infantry units by 2006. The weapons will cost between $10,000 and $12,000 each, plus $25 to $30 for each 20mm air-burst round.

Now guess why I wouldn't like to see one added to INF until long after 3.0.(hint: 2006; 10,000$).

BTW: I don't want to know how often you can drop one of these to the ground until you hit nothing anymore..

Snakeye :D

[Dr.Dase]

Well, i've seen pistols classified as handcannons, and a chinese rifle classed as a carbine, and a carbine classed as a rifle. Names are just something you put on things to know what they are, but the same name can mean something completely different to someone else. To me, a cannon is a projectile weapon firing at high velocity in low arc, and a GL is the same, only low velocity, high arc. Anyone has a correct terminology for this?

[Luminuis]

You drop an OICW once and you can't SHOOT anything anymore from what I've heard.


I hope they make it more durable

[Snakeye]

That handcannon was surely something big and the person designating it that way wanted to let it seem even bigger. The difference between a rifle and a carbine is rather small.

Now for cannon/GL:

20mm cannon round:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m50-20mm.jpg

Compare the 20mm round with the one of the OICW I posted before; keep in mind the projectile is the same diameter and try to compare the cartridge length/size. Now which one will have higher velocity/lower arc?
Since I didn't find out how fast the 20mm projectile of the OICW travels, I suppose, because of it's range of 1,000m, it isn't too fast - 20mm cannons have an effective range more than twice that.

Snakeye :D

[Dr.Dase]

Yeah, but that's for like a helicopter gun or similar autocannon, right?

[Snakeye]

I start to get hope you finally understand my point:

Yes, this is for CANNON(don't know which one exactly, at FAS there only stood it was a tungsten core APDS). I guess it's for the M61A1 or similar. I couldn't find any exact velocity for 20mm cannon rounds until now(can't access most weapon related pages from my university's network..), but I'm sure it will be much higher than that of the 20mm GL of the OICW(will try to get some range info too..).

Additionally you could take a look at the OCSW(or so..) which is basically a AGL with the 20mm round of the OICW which should replace the Mk19 and the M2HB. At FAS they describe it as:
The Objective Crew Served Weapon (OCSW) is an integrated machine gun system which couples the firepower of air bursting munitions with optoelectronic fire control to provide all-environment operation and enhanced lethality.
Note they said machine gun, NOT machine cannon/autocannon. Seeing it that way the 20mm weapon of the OICW could also be described as low pressure 20mm gun, which is (more or less) a GL.(Don't like their expression MG, since a MG usually relies on KE rounds, not on HE, but whatever..)

Will post again as soon as I find velocity/range comparison..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I couldn't find anything on the net if my life depended on it. The only thing I got are some velocities of 20mm cannon used on helicopters - these usually have lower velocity than those mounted on aircraft or armored vehicles, still all of them were significantly over 700m/s some even above 1000m/s one Oerlikon even exceeding 1300m/s with HE ammo. I suppose the OICWs 20mm cannot come near this(you find pictures of the gun, ammo, how much one 20mm round costs and how fast a 5.56 travel approximately, but no ****ing muzzle velocity for the 20mm..). Maybe anyone over here knows more..

Snakeye :D

[CAVERNA2K]

man, c´mon... did´t u notice he was not saing that the GL of the OICW was a cannon... He said it like, check this out: Quake, about the super nail gun "Eats ammo like popcorn". The SuperNailGun did not eat ammo, much less popcorn... The same can be inferred about the "cannon" of the OICW...


-just think when reading... Make my live more easier.

[Snakeye]

No. 1:
The weapon is practically a H&K G36 with a 20mm cannon and a kickass scope on.
No. 2:
..and this data can be transfered to the 20mm cannon..
No. 3:
If you look at the barrel of the 20mm cannon..

Do I really have to continue? Now I don't know how bad my English is, but to me it sounded like he called the GL a cannon, and this in more than one post. Since I suppose you're not the same person, I guess only he knows his motivation to do so, AND if he really meant it to make that GL seem bigger than it actually is, he could have told me that after my first post, and this whole discussion wouldn't have taken place.

Snakeye :D
PS: I suppose you misspelled my name on purpose..if not the right way to spell it is left of this post..