Rogue's Second Political Poll- Ah, the stupidity of school...

[RogueLeader]

This isn't so much a political poll as it is my rant...

So my English teach wanted me to write a narrative essay about some event in my life. I wanted to be original, so I had the great idea of writing my paper on writing the paper (a paradox :}). By doing that I also joked about how I did that because I could not think of anything important in my life because of my sleep deprivation, which was basically my commentary on how the way our school forces us to wake up at 5:30 am everyday is unhealthy and a violation of our rights to have reasonable access to life's requirements, sleep being one of them. I also refer to the assignment, when writing about how I'm writing it, as "worthless and pathetic", which it is. It has no educationaly merit whatsoever. Its nothing more than busy work. In fact, although my paper has a somewhat humorous topic being a paradox and all, it has a lot of commentary on how schools violate the rights of students on a regular basis and how schools aren't made for education, but rather propganda camps for our government. Well my English teacher thinks that I need counciling now, because she implied from my statement that I couldn't remember anything worth writing about in my life (which was part of the joke anyway) as me thinking my life is worthless. She also got mad because I pointed out the stupidity of her assignment. She got even more mad when I pointed out to her that that is just shooting the messenger. So my poll question is, are schools just fascist indoctrination camps in which children are taught to give up their rights, accept punishment for originality, and learn to never question authority no matter how wrong that authority is?

[RogueLeader]

Oh, here is a bit more I should have gone into detail on- I am getting a 0 on the paper with a change to rewrite it. I am going to take the 0 on principle. The paper was supposed to a narrative essay. She says it wasn't a narrative. it clearly was, because a narrative includes action and writing a paper is an action, and I clearly outline my thoughts and actions in writing the paper in detail. I think it is obvious she is just mad I made her realize what a stupid assignment it was.

[jaeg]

I tried to vote, but I couldn't find the "RougeLeader is a whiney dumb piece of crap that makes us liberals who actually try to get something done instead of constantly complaining look bad by being a total fool and that this poll is further proof of his idiocy" option. Could you edit your post to add it?

[RogueLeader]

I tried to add a poll option for "I claim to be a liberal but instead support suppression of human rights and indoctrination of children into a police state" option for you but I can't seem to edit the poll. Sorry.

[Jotun]

well as I see it, you should've done the essay "correctly" and you shouldn't have ranted about the school system and how BS the assignment was. Yes I am sure the assignment WAS BS and I get those myself but do you realize how much your teacher is getting paid to take crap from students like you? Mind you my mom's a teacher and I can insure you it isn't much. All i can say is that you do the BS assignment, get a hundred on it without confrontations or anything else. There is no point in making an issue over something as little as a narrative essay...

[RogueLeader]

I wish I could do that Jotun. Unfortunatly, unlike most people, I don't accept problems as hopeless. I confront them and I am willing to sacrifice myself to solve them. As I said, I am accepting the 0. But this does nothing but prove that the schools support the suppression of free ideas, especially those critical of the school itself. What does this teach children? When you tell a child that it is wrong to oppose someone in power, that someone having authority automatically makes them right and all opposition wrong, how do you expect them to act once they are in the real world? If we have a war with China and all chinese-americans are thrown into concentration camps like the Japanese in WWII, how do you think these people will react? With support? I also cannot allow the injustice of sleep deptrivation to continue...a person in high school needs about 10 hours of sleep...limiting the time a student can sleep to such extreme levels is not just wrong, its life threatening. Extreme sleep deprivation causes death, you know. I'm not trying to insult teachers, most of them are descent people. In fact the one person I hear complain about the oppression in schools more than anyone else is one of my teachers. But if an assignment is BS, why should I not do a BS assignment? A teacher is supposed to teach and that means doing something educational. If she doesn't do her job, why should I do mine?

[BlueSniper]

Hell yeah! go rouge!

wee'l teach those teachers that school should be about learning, and not governmental persuasion!

ANARCHY!

[omen]

i probably would of given him an A or B (depending also on the quality of the work) for being so original. i also think a lot of the things they make you do in school is BS. like placing so much importance on SATs and teaching kids how to take a test instead of encouraging creative thinking. but i disagree with you when you say school is just a "facist indoctrination camp" that only exists to take our rights away. it's a complex world with complex jobs that require eduction. that's why school is here. i don't think they're trying to turn us into zombie followers or anything.

[Thrash123]

Wait a second... Your saying... waking up at 5:30 AM... is SLEEP DEPRIVATION? Son, I hate to tell you... but if you think that's too early, you need to get outta that habit. I wake up at 5ish in the mornings to get ready for school and whatnot. Sometimes I have to get up at _3_ AM to get ready for a band function (not anymore tho, I'm graduating... although there is college band, heh). You are more than likely staying up too late. If you believe in the 8 hour sleep regimend, then go to bed earlier. I usually go to bed around 10ish on school nites.

[Jotun]

ok, i do agree with you to an extent. For example, Standards of Learning tests (SOLs) are complete and utter bull ****. I hate em. They make it so the teachers cant teach upon the curriculim in which THEY wanted to teach. SOLs can burn in hell but I'm still going to take the test and I'm still going to try my best on the test. Not because I'm a little goody goody school bitch no no no far from it, I'm gonna do my best on them because of the benefactors that come from the SOLs. If I pass the SOLs I dont have to take my final exam in certain classes. Now if you take that 0 how is that going to affect your grade? Wouldn't it have been smarter and more beneficial to DO the bull **** assignment and get an A and get a good grade in the class? I supose I may not fully understand your resoning, I'm just going by what I would have done in the situation

[RogueLeader]

Thrash, lets analyze this for a moment.

Taking into account that the average teenager needs 10 hours of sleep a day to be healthy.

5:30- wake up and go to school
6:00-4:00- go to classes. sleep in study hall is not allowed despite studies proving naps during day vastyl improve thinking ability, but blankly staring at wall is accepted.
4:00- leave school
4:30- go to work
5:00-6:30- work
7:00- begin homework. average load is 4-5 hours overall
11:00/12:00- go to sleep
that means the average teen will get around 5 or 5.5 hours of sleep, about the half the ammount needed. the school year is about 180 days. Thats 900 hours of sleep lost a year. High school lasts 4 years. Thats 3600 hours of sleep lost. Thats 150 days. Almost as many days as there are in one school year. If you were to try going without sleep that long consecutivly, you would be dead by day 10. You would have gone insane by day 8.

[Thrash123]

Heh, I've gone longer without sleep. It's just convenient to have... and it keeps my mom happy ;)

Jeez, now I see where your coming from... Here, school starts at 8:30 and goes to 3:00. Nowhere have I seen your schedule before... ugh.

[Jotun]

try 8:30 to 3:30... but i get up at 7 every morning so it isn;t so bad

[jaeg]

This is downright pathetic.

[Jotun]

oh and one more thing, i dont accept things as "hopeless" that is very pescimistic and i happen to be an optimist most of the time. I do the work so I go to a good college and get a good job I'm happy with. That's all.

[AtomicAxis]

Rogue if thats your schedule then how is that you have time to post here? :)

[RogueLeader]

Right now I'm flipping back and forth between writing a 7 page U.S. history paper on the CIA's human experimentation in project MKULTA and this browser window.

[Jotun]

well Rogue Leader, why aren't you writing a 7 page essay about how THAT history essay is BS? I mean who needs history anyway! I'm sure as hell not gonna be a history teacher! So tell me Rogue Leader, WHY are you writing it?

[RogueLeader]

Because history has educational value, and it is vital to the survival of the human species. If we ignore the past, we can't learn from out mistakes, such as the mistake of giving the CIA absolute power and trusting them to not abuse it, by testing radiation, LSD, and mind control on unwitting civilians, for example.

[ThunderChunkysBoyz]

What is your problem?

Your blind faith in believing everything is wrong, and you are superior and can solve the world's problems, would amost be funny, if it weren't so sad.

You complain about sleep deprivation. Nothing is depriving you of sleep but yourself. If you have to get up at 5:30 in the morning, go to be earlier. Don't go shouting off complaining that the facist school, is robbing you of your ever so valuable sleep.
If you want to go to bed at midnight, knowing full well you have to get up early in the morning, then nobody but yourself is to blame. If you want to start blaming them for that, why not continue the trend and blame them for making you eat their food if you happen to forget your lunch? Where does it stop? Accept responsibility. You decide your schedule. If you find yourself not able to do things you want to, stop doing everything.

Apparently, you are singlehandedly trying to revise the school cirriculum because it doesn't fit your rigorous standards. You claim that you are doing your just part in opposing what you feel is a stupid practice. So be it. However, you also attempt to make it into some holy crusade showing that you are indeed stronger than "The Man." The school system is a form of mass education. This means that the cirriculum is designed for a body, and not for the individual. To criticize an assignment as stupid as you find it useless is blatantly egotistical and unnecessary. If you have a problem with how the school operates, drop out. Of course, you will be facing consequences doing such. Just remember, revolutionary drivel sounds much better when its coming from behind bars.

You are also lacking something called common sense. To compare an assignment which you took, and threw back in someone's face, essentially calling another person, who has their own feelings, prejudices, and ideas, an idiot. To compare a writing assignment, which at most takes a few hours of your time when you could be shouting at a street corner distributing pamphlets to the uneducated masses, with the imprisonment of a race of human beings. I somehow sense a difference between the severity of the two. If you are unable to see this difference, then perhaps you should rethink your position.

So, go ahead an call me an idiot because I do not see with the same clarity that you do.

[Jotun]

ok so learning pointless facts and memorizing dates that you can easily find out by watching the History Channel or somewhat factual movies (i did say somewhat) like Saving Private Ryan, is more important than learning how to speak proper english and learning how to write? I'm sorry but if i'm not mistaken MOST colleges ask for an essay when you apply and you also need to write a Senior Thesis. Knowing when the Magna Carta was signed or who killed Caesar wont help you much then

[RogueLeader]

You can't hear persuasive essays on the history channel. History isn't about events, its about why those events occur. For example: we know the people of Germany supported Hitler when he came to power. That isn't important. What is important is WHY. He primised them safety and security in exchange for their democracy and rights. Even though he gave them war instead, the youth of Germany willingly went off to war. Why? Because they were taught that speaking out against the state was wrong and that the state was always the ultimate authority. That might makes right, and sense the state has might, it is right. Where did they learn this? School.

This isn't just a paper where I right down a bunch of facts. My history teacher is one of the few cool teachers I have. He is extremely difficult (it is an advanced placement class after all) and has us write professional persuasive essays on the causes and results of events in U.S. history, not just worthless repetition of facts. He is also the only history teacher I ever had that ackowledges some of America's shady past, like the suppression of the freedom fighters in the Phillipines, that most schools like to convienently skip. Our papers have to up to the standard of a professional historian, so much so that he publishes A papers. For example, my last paper was a 12 page essay arguing that the National Security Agency is alone responsible for the Cold War because of its plan outlined in NSC-68. Tell me when I can watch something on that on the History Chanel

[Jotun]

ok, so quit complaining and just quit school then Rogue, since it's such a "Fascisit Zombie Machine". I'll be sure to flip ya a nickle when I see you lying homeless on the streets...

[Jotun]

quick qyestion, if you're so anti-fascist then why do you have a quote from the man who wrote "The Communist Manifesto"... the very man who started communism...

[RogueLeader]

You bring up another good point, jotun: The consolidation of power in the educratic system. By forcing children into school as young as 5, when they are only first forming their political beliefs, when they can molded into zombies, and then forcing them to stay for their entire childhood years or face punishment in the form of being left out of a job, no matter how qualified you actually are, the government can force children to remain in the propoganda camps and further brainwash them.

I will make a great point for you, Jotun, if you do me a favor. Read Plato's The Republic. Once you are done, read SB73. Tell me if you find any similarities as far as education goes...

[RogueLeader]

Why do I have a quote by Marx? Because communism is the opposite of fascism.

Communism
Democratic
Classless
Promotes Civil Liberties
Emphasis on the working class

Fascism
Autocratic
Ruling Class is Served by All Citizens
Belives civil liberties are threat to power of the state
working class is only there to serve the ruling class

As you can see the too are opposites. of course you have been taught that communism is fascism. Now consider, Jotun, WHERE were you taught this, and who would want you to think that...

[Jotun]

I apologize for my ignorance for this year I have a history teacher who's new to the school. I just had my facts mixed up.

[BlueSniper]

comunism is when EVERYTHING belongs to the government. you cant oun anything. all your money, items, and family belongs to the government.

the reason america is doing so well and always has is because of free will. we stay away from comunism because it gives people NO reason to live. now liberals want us to go in that direction and give away everything we own to the government. if I ruled the world, I would dispose of all things goverenment and that means me. People should work towards getting our OWN money.

comunism might sound like a good idea, but it never works! obviously!

[RogueLeader]

In communism the government owns nothing. The people own nothing. Everyone owns everything. In a true democracy there would be no government that is recognizable as a seperate entity from the people, because every single person would be the government. A republic is much more of an encroachment upon democracy than we tend to realize. With our modern technology we no longer need a republican system, we can move to true democracy.

[BlueSniper]

there will always be somebody who wants it all. and those people are those who rule the world.

"give a selfish man power and you will have a king"
-Solomon, son of david.

[RogueLeader]

As long as everyone elsa is willing to stop them, they have no chance. When you dumb the oppostion down in schools, the oppressor can make his move.

[BlueSniper]

okay you have stated the punnishment of the selfish,
what about the reward of the humble?


and besides, we are just humans.

nothing to loose our breath about.

[AtomicAxis]

Actually in the true form of Communism everything is owned by everybody not the state. Theoretically there are big warehouses with food and clothes in them. People go into these warehouses and take what they need. Electricty is free etc. etc. Communism in its purest form would actually be a cashless society in essesence with everyone working for free but getting what they need. However as seen so many times before this is never going to work for one simple reason - human greed.

***

Rogue I think that the English teacher that got you to write the essay was looking at your style and essay writing skills rather than anything else. I found that everytime there was a ****ty topic they were just making sure you could structure an essay properly.

How many people in your school? Because if there is a lot she probably doesnt know that you can write an essay (because of your history class). That is the issue I have with high schools. Because it is built to educate a body as opposed to an indivdual (thanks for that thunderchunkysboyz) it is very difficult for teachers to discuss all the pupils with other teachers. Was this a relatively new english teacher?

[BlueSniper]

thank you, atomic

[AtomicAxis]

For what?

[Jotun]

Yes but it seems as if Stalin was more of a dictator than a true communist. Take the 5 Year Plan into consideration... a plan to radically industrialize Russia which failed miserably. He also KILLED farmers who were doing well... KILLED THEM was this for the people? He killed more people than he helped and that is the sad truth... communistic ideas are very nieve and will never work

[RogueLeader]

Well, I have the essay here. She says that it is not a narrative essay so she cannot grade it. However, it meets all the requirements to be one. She seems to be mad at me because I say the subject is "insultingly pathetic", although in reading it in context I am actually refering to my own subject!

You see, the whole paper was written sarcastically. Basically, to not-so-subtly attack the lack of sleep I get beacuse of school, I do this:
My subject of the narrative essay was writing the narrative essay. The point of this paradox is that I can make fun of my own essay by saying things like, "Then I found I needed to write one more page but had nothing to say, so I decided to write this sentance to take up space.", which due to the irony of the subject makes sense. Meanwhile I criticize the school's schedule by saying "I couldnt' think of a better subject because I was so deprived of sleep I could no longer feel, or remember my name." She apparently did not pick up on this, and misunderstood my insults to my own subjects as an attack on her assignment.

And we are a big school, 3500 students.

[Jarvis Hamilton]

Ok, people. I must admit that RougeLeader does have a point. I think that project was pretty BS. But giving you a zero in the light of such a creative topic was not good. But don't attack the school system when you are only reffering to one school. In this world, many schools are diffrent and every teacher is unique. In this case, I kinda agree with you on your teacher's actions.





By the way, your scaring me again.
This makes me think that when someone under the alias "RougeLeader" bombs the white house I can say "Hey, I know that guy!"
Like I said, I'm a 100% US patriot.



By the way, also, communism cannot work due to human nature.
It looks good on paper, though.

[AtomicAxis]

I believe that is exactly what I said Jarvis.


ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH work is freaking boring at the moment.

[RogueLeader]

I'll try to use a different alias when I bomb the white house so you don't have to know it was me, Jarvis.

Ooops, you didn't read this...

[Mad_Dog]

quote
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So my poll question is, are schools just fascist indoctrination camps in which children are taught to give up their rights, accept punishment for originality, and learn to never question authority no matter how wrong that authority is?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

it depends on the school, and the teachers in the school. i went to a great high school, with great teachers, who constantly rewarded you for originality (the majority of them anyway). my composition in stage band was a guitar/drum 'n' bass instrumental, and the majority of my presentations were on censorship and free speech (taking the view of opposing censorship of any kind). every school has good and sh*t teachers, gotta take the good with the bad. also, i find now in university, you are f*cked without originality... a C at best. i've learnt the hard way:).

and rogueleader - what kind of f*cking school do yo go to? 6 am to 4 pm? jesus christ, i'd drop out and work at the local planing mill...:) mine was 8:30 to 3:00....

[RogueLeader]

For every school that promotes free expression there is a law that seeks to stop it. In Bush's budget all schools must install filetering software. In my experience with the Bess proxy at my school the only things blocked out are links to civil liberties pages from about.com's civil liberties section and amnesty international's web site. I also found that Bess blocks the word "witch". If I were a Wiccan I would be very insulted.

Another bill, SB73, allows teachers to grade parents abiltiies based on student attendance and how much homework is done. In other words, if a chidl doesn't do his homework the teacher can give the parent an F (instead of the student) and social services takes away the child.

[jaeg]

RogueLeader, I could put a bunch of rebuttals to your previous statements here, but instead I'll just leave with this:

You're a dumb piece of crap.

[AtomicAxis]

/me runs for the security and warmth offered to me by my doona.

[Mad_Dog]

i am also canadian, where we were smart enough not to elect our joke candidate, stockwell day. george w. is a f*cking stooge... i feel for ya...

i also noticed problems with my school boards web filtering... think i could look up a web page on the sex pistols? nooooo... i think some kind of filter is needed though, cause there is nasty **** that schools shouldn't allow. anyway, that is another debate...

[-Lost-]

rogue leader, you're ****ed up.

look back at history...communism/marxism/utopian socialism don't work for very long. take the owenites for example. owen started New Lanark, failed; New Harmony, failed; Mexican colony, failed before it started. The shakers were sort of communists, you could be a shaker...

[Mad_Dog]

everybody - please refrain from flaming. that ruined another interesting thread that rogueleader had started. if you're going to argue, have a point to make, support it, and avoid personal insults.

[Sebu_NZ]

Good on ya Mad Dog

Could ya post the essay RL?

[Uppity]

I really want to know what kind of school has working hours of 6-4 and 3-5? hours of homework every night.

Also I don't know where you get your figures from for 10 hours required sleep. As far as i know everyone is different in this respect but in most cases absolutely no benefit is gained from any sleep over 8 hours.

Oh yeah, sleep depravation - if you really want to know what it is, have a baby. When my son was youger it went like this:

Woken up by baby at 5.30. Feed him, change him, dress him, feed myself, change myself, bath (shower) myself.

7.00 take baby to childminders.
7.30 catch train to work
8.30 arrive at work.
5.00 catch train home
6.30 arrive at home, feed, bath + change baby
8:00 put baby to bed (constantly up and down stairs for the next 1 1/2 hour)

9.30 feed self, tidy up etc.
10.00 baby wakes up - feed him, wind him and get him back to sleep (usually took 2 hours)
Midnight go to bed
2am woken up by baby - feed him wind him get him back to sleep
4am go back to sleep
5.30 woken up by baby. Its a new day!!!

for a grand total of 3 1/2 hours sleep per day. It didn't kill me. If anything I got used to it and now only need about 506 hours sleep on a night and so can stay up late every night playing Inf :)

So maybe your teacher has a baby? maybe the assignment is all she could come up with after months of this? Maybe she was quite justified in being annoyed that a student of all people complained about sleep deprivation. Or maybe she has a sick relative which she is spending all of her time caring for?

Schools teach faschism? Maybe they're trying to teach respect - something which is sorely lacking in the younger generation. What is a law-abiding citizen but someone who respects the authority of the police force, judiciary system and government?

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but you just seem to want a perfect world and it just isn't possible. All you can realistically expect is that people try to make it the best possible worly they can - but I have news for you, life gets harder as you grow up. School is the easiest part of anyone's life (apart from maybe pre-school) and pretty much everyone else has a hard time just getting through their day without having to make the world a better place.

And what you forget - Education is a benefit to YOU, no-one else. 150 years ago you would have given anything for the chance to go to school but now everyone in the developed world gets to go. Is that an improvement in the world or what?

Uppity

[Excelsiore]

Rogueleader. I do see were your coming from. I also think that you realize what you need to do to get good grades and that choosing your battles can be more beneficial than fighting them all.

Just a little tidbit about teachers and grades. We had an english assignment to write an essay once. Two girls in my class handed in their essays but forgot to write their names on them. The teacher assumed which essay was who's, wrote the names she thought on them and graded them. When the girls said she'd mixed up who wrote which essay, not only did she change the names, she also changed the grades. Ie, she decided what grade to give based upon who wrote it. Btw, one girl was a goody two shoes, the other was more of a non-comformist like Rogueleader here. Guess who got the better grade after the names were sorted out?

A note on communsim. Everything you learn about it in US schools in a blatant lie.

Quote: "What is a law-abiding citizen but someone who respects the authority of the police force, judiciary system and government?"

Hypothetical governing body:"We have a new law. All law abiding citizens are required to gas jews."

Naw, that'll never happen. Will it????

[Mad_Dog]

Excelsiore - what a bitch! i had a teacher like that once... one of the sh*tty ones in my school. he marked rough notes for some reason, and i handed in two pages of rough notes with an assignment, first of the year. i got 7/10 on the rough notes, which was fair i thought, i didn't do too many. but i wanted a better mark, so i handed in 4 pages of rough notes with the next assignment. i still got 7/10, for twice as much work. so i showed it too him, asked for a raise in the mark and he said he'd think about it. i did get the raise, but so many teachers stick students in one mark bracket, and don't give them a chance to get out... i hate that.

[Xxaxx]

Originally posted by Excelsiore
I also think that you realize what you need to do to get good grades and that choosing your battles can be more beneficial than fighting them all.


Excelsiore - You hit the nail right on the head.

Rouge Leader - Maybe you should read Educating Rita, although it's not the main theme of the book it touches on the need to learn what is required of you and to produce it. It's also quite short so I'm sure you can fit it in somewhere. A couple of years ago I was doing the same thing as you, but it became too much of a hassle having to haggle for marks, so I now I just keep it verbal or dont even bother.
Also, just to piss you off, my school day is 8:30 - 3:30 (this is in Australia); we are supposed to do a minimum of three hours of homework a night (this is Year 12, final year of high school), I do maybe 30 minutes, and that's on a good night, but I still remain seventh in my year (out of 100 odd students).

Edit: PS, I nominated option three on the poll, mostly because I do feel that schools tend to numb people's individuality and what not, but I'm confident that I cannot be corrupted, thus this "facism" makes people just that little bit easier to understand/manipulate.
PPS, I've got some pretty f*cked up morals though, I failed an ethics test on principle, that was last year, and probably the last time I put any of me into my work. (I couldn't convince the teacher that since there should be no wrong answers in the test that it shouldn't count for anything....)

[Jotun]

I agree Upitty (i'm sorry if i spellt your name wrong). Respect in the schools is little to none it's down right pathetic. These teachers have real lives just like anyone else and on top of that they have to take crap from students all day. Instead of flaming the teachers we should be shaking their hands for all the crap they take from the student body. The teachers shouldn't be the focus of the blame if the school system is messed up...

Also I'd like to hear some remarks about my Stalin comment above RogueLeader

[Lord_Bunker]

hey rogue, instead of giving us an inheriantly biased opinion of your own work, why don't you post you paper and let others judge for them selves. i'll tell you i've done quite well doing similiar style papers, i did that for my final reflective essay for honors english here in collage. and i got a b on it. i've found that generally though negativly focused papers such as yours tend to do poorly. the tend to turn into a rant more than anything else. so surly you typed your paper in word or whatever wordprecessor you use and can just attach it here. and tell what education level your at so we have an idea of what we need to expect.

[Excelsiore]

Respect goes both ways. A lot of teachers have no respect for students point of view or thoughts or anything.

One teacher asked me who my favorite author was at the begining of a school year. I said Stephen King, dammit, shoulda said Balzac or Gothe or something. Stuck on a B no matter what I did.

I'd rather be trying to teach Rogueleader than some guy who's gonna come at me with a knife or some girl who's mom is also a teacher, which means she can do no wrong.

[jaeg]

Yes, I would like to read his paper as well.

[phatcat]

I don't know what your talk'n about but I went to a cool High School!!

I went to Westbury High School (http://hs.houstonisd.org/WestburyHS/)

It had its bad times, but most of our teachers really did care about our students

my english teachers always wanted our input on anything. and we where free to write on whatever we wanted to.

I was there during the big school scare... my teachers understood us, and never feared us. we even had students who refused to learn, and we never forced it on them, if they refused, they where flunked, not puzzy footed around.

I would like to take this time to thank my great teachers I had when I was a student 1995-1999

Mrs. Le Ware (english freshman& sophmore)
Mr. Kay (english junior)
Mr. Player (english senior)
Mr. Iltis (Computere SCI)
Mr. McDonald (Intro to Computers)

and a thanks for that teachers who where subpar and told me how to deal with *******s!

mrs. pellerin (Desktop Publishing)

High School is there for you to learn one thing....
how to deal with people!! the covert currculam of High School is far more important than the overt.

to all those who bitch about there HS I say... bahh...

deal with it, so is life.

http://hs.houstonisd.org/WestburyHS/Animation/Animation1.gif

[RogueLeader]

First of all, Lost, perhaps you should be studying history, not me. No communist society has ever existed and the places you list were communes, not communist societies, the two are different.

I like to think that I cannot be corrupted, but having just finished a paper on the CIA's mind control experiments I can tell you that brainwashing is not the kind of thing that you can simply be immune to. The human mind is a very fragile thing, and the more immune to corruption we think it is the more easy it is to corrupt it.

[nomme de guerre]

Pity I couldn't have been around to take part in this extremely lengthy and in parts interesting thread. One point before I write the equivalent of Das Kapital on Off Topic...Stalin was not a Communist and he wasn't a Socialist– he was a fascist. The crimes against humanity which he committed were many times in quantity and at least equal in to those of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. In addition to that he was particularly genocidal.

At least he helped defeat Hitler, but even then it was the Russian people who did the hard work.

[Goat Fucker]

I personally look at schools no diferently then i do the nazi consentration camps, same evil.

The things we are tought in school are the things the government deems proper, thereby efectively removing the right to a free will, i cant even start counting the essays i got flunk grades on, either because my teacher had a personal gripe with me, that he or she could not handle in a profecional manner, or because they where "total wrong, and misinformed" because it diddent take the "proper" point of view on political issues.
For every good school and or teacher, there are a thousand bad ones, and a government dictating what is right or wrong to say, do or write.
We <b>are</b> beeing censored i school, try writing a history essay on the assasination of JFK, and write it in favor of the "second shooter on the grassy knoll", u <b>will</b> get flunked, because the government has said it was Oswald who shot him alone, its in the historry book, even if the chance of it are 1 to 10000000.
U are not intiteled to say "no, i dont belive thats right, the facts in that book must be wrong" and write it thereafter.
Where are the basic human rights of free will in that?

All i have learned in school was
1) i am nothing
2) the athority is allways right
3) i am not allowed to disagree

The perfect setup for a mindrape, if i dont belive i have rights, i wont stand up for any, plain and simple.

Now who would benifit from this?

Lets look short termed first, the school and teachers themselves.

A student who does not know his or her rights, or just doesent dare stand up for them, wont:

1) talk back to a teacher
2) deny punishment such as detention (witch is classed as freedom denial, like jail is, and is not legal)
3) speak against policies or rules that he or she is forced to abide, such as discriminating dress codes, or the removal of right to practice a relegion
4) refuse to work on an asignment that discriminates his or her personal beliefs, or morals (disecting frogs and seartain essay topics comes to mind)
5) refuse to pay for seartain "service deals" that he or she thinks are a waste of money

Ok, so who outside the school wouldent mind the people not knowing their rights.

Work.
So what can an employer do, if the people working for him/her doesent know their rights, or just dont dare stand up for them:

1) working for less than they are intiteled to
2) disregard safety gear, to save a few bucks
3) how about forcing people to work overtime without paying them for it
4) women just get pregnit at some point, and cant work, lets not pay them the same as we do men
5) or why bother installing ventilation, so what if people get sick, we just cut it from their pay
6) so u dont want to have sex with me, eh?, well kiss youre paycheck goodbye
7) whoa there bubba, u have the wrong skin colour, no way am i paying u the same as real people

Or what about the government:

If no one is fighting for their rights, what is going to stop them from doing anything they damn well please.
(i wont even bother writing up points here, the posibilities are astronomical)

Theres too much politics involved with all this, and too much money, everything currupts given the right sercomstances, school has all of them, in my not so humble opinion.

Now on the topic of respecting athority, namely police...let me get this straight, when my freind got the living crap beaten out of him this monday by the police, for the horrible crime of beeing part of a peacefull demonstation against racism.
He should have showed them nothing but respect?

The fact that someone is wearing a uniform doesent change anything, we are all humans, for better or worse.

So what can we say about cops?
Well here we have a line of work the requres that u are werry dumb, u have to take an IQ test to become a cop, and u are dismissed if u score too well, the government needs dumb drones that just carry out orders.
Lets look at the job itself.
Here is a line of work that offers u power to do a great deal of things twords people, it offers that sence of beeing better than anyone else, guns and fast cars, and the right to use them.
If u ask me, the only job that provides more opertunity for coruption, and atracts more people prone to corrupt than police officer, is politician, its wrotten to the core.

Now onto the communism topic that has sprung up:
Stalin was not a communist, he was a dictator, he promised the russian people communism, but gave them poperty, genocide and war, in exactly the same way Hitler promised the german people economic stabillity, safety and freedom, but gave them genocide, mind rape and war.

There has never been a true communistic state or country, and there wont be anytime soon. Communism is one of the purest and most decent philosofies i have ever encountered, and people are such selfish, power hungry s<b></b>hit, it wont work.

[RogueLeader]

Well said, Goat.

The average person spends half their waking hours in school, learning everything the government wants them to. Government isn't known for caring about education, government is known for the 170 million killed in democide in the last 100 years.

[Sebu_NZ]

Nicely said Goat

Its interesting about what you said about JFK

Well here in NZ, I just finished an assignment on The Assasination of JFK, and there was no censourship what-so-ever, well what a surpise huh? We were allow to freely write what ever we want, it was grade on the ability to analyis etc etc, hte problems you talk about aren't here at all, lucky huh?

But seriously though, I didn't know that your, or anyother school would be like that?

That is seriously wrong.

[Mad_Dog]

rogueleader - explain 'democide' please...

[AtomicAxis]

I think that comparing schools to Nazi concentration camps is not only wrong but is insulting as well.

I mean you cant be serious can you????? As screwed up as American schools maybe you cannot possibly compare them Nazi concentration camps. Are the teachers in American schools doing degrading and painful physical tests on the students where in the end the students will probably die? I dont think so.

From what I can understand of American education system it is very biased in what it teaches. Australia is not biased we learnt about what happened to the Aborigines when Australia was conolised (this including killing and then trying to assimilate them - very uncool).

[chunky]

We had to do a "creative response" for english, which really only tests your artistic ability. anyway, my friend also decided to do a protest assignment, and handed in a crappy 5min black ball-point pen sketch and explained his thoughts in a short essay, saying that the ideas are what counted, not it's execution (along with some content hinting at the fact that english is pretty much a waste of time after you learn to write and that the teacher has wasted her life). anyway, it' now hanging on his wall with a big dirty 1/20 on it :)

[Sebu_NZ]

I cant stand english

all that

"there is no right answer" is bull****

I prefer Science and Maths, straight up and down baby!

[RogueLeader]

Atomic, the teachers are preparing students for degrading and painful testing. Schools are meant to teach children to blindly follow our government, which has some not so pretty secrets of its own in what it did with the Nazi scientists they captured and brought back to work at the CIA...

[Mason]

I think this throws a monkey wrench into the entire works: I moved around a lot (my father was a Marine for 30 years), I attended 8 different schools during grades 1-12, these included public, catholic, and schools that were on 'base'. Judging from all of these posts, the catholic school and the one on the military base (Camp Lejeune, specifically) would be the ones more than likely to be very biased in their teaching, especially Camp Lejeune since it operated directly under the government. Those fascist bastards! Just the right breeding ground for mindless zombies, right? Wrong!

The 3 years I spent at this high school were the most informative of my life. I took mainly college level courses and ALL (but one) of my teachers were very open and not only encouraged but rewarded individuality and originality. Seems to be bit of a paradox here, eh? Our history teacher even touched on the '2nd gunman on the grassy knoll theory' in a serious way..not very typical of a school that operates DIRECTLY under the government thought by many to be responsible for the death of JFK.

School is what you make of it. Of course there are going to be good teachers and bad ones, but to make a judgement based on your own limited experience and the experiences of others (especially when you seemingly only take into account the 'bad' ones) seems a bit wrong to me. You could say that I am doing the same thing, but I think I attended a pretty good 'cross-section' of schools. The list of places that I attended or visited schools in include: Maryland(2 different schools), North Carolina, Hawaii, Cuba, San Diego(2 different schools), Monterey CA, New York. Of ALL the schools I attended, the BEST were the Junior High School I attended in San Diego (encouraged MUCH individualism) and high school in North Carolina (Camp Lejeune). The absolute WORST was a high school in San Diego (mainly because of gangs).

My point here is that I have attended enough schools to be able to make (IMHO) a judgement based on a multitude of learning experiences, the base being @100 different teachers in different states. I saw more good teachers than bad, more encouragement of individuality than oppression of free thought.

I, too, would like to see the essay that you got crucified on. Are all of your teachers like this? (I know you said at least one was cool)

[Mason]

Chunky, English is not a waste of time. I used to think maybe it was but now I have to, on a monthly basis, write reports on how my class is running and the individual progress of my 'guys'. My job requires not only the ability to write but to speak well, both of which are taught in English. If I don't present my thoughts, no matter how brilliant, in a cohesive, intelligent manner, then I sound like an idiot and will not be taken seriously. By the way, I work in Human Services with mentally handicapped individuals, teaching basic life skills. I don't know how old some of you are, but for those who are still in high school, wait until you are in the work force before deciding what you 'needed' to learn in school and what was a 'waste' of time. There are several areas of school that I thought were a complete waste of time, only to realize later that they were valuable, if not completely necessary.

[Goat Fucker]

As stated before, for every cool teacher and school, there are a thousand bad ones.

We had to do an essay on the assasination of JFK, and i personally dont belive in one bullet recosheting that much, nor that any one man could have operated a bolt lock fast enough to shoot him that many times, in so little time, so i did an essay in favor of a second or even a posible third shooter.
Needles to say, i flunked, because the historry book said there was only one shooter.

I went to 3 differend schools in my time, all where pure s<b></b>hit, i only had one teacher that actually cared a little bit about what i felt or had to say, but he wasssent allowed to do anything to help me boost my grades, f<b></b>ucking byocracy.

Yes, i do compare them to the consentration camps of 1939-1945, simply because that was what they where for me all that time, a place i was locked up in, and forced to work, and tought how to be a "proper" citicen.
Ohh and BTW, im not yank, im from Denmark, and what i say regarding this subject is based on what i have seen, heard and experianced in the danish school system, i dont know "how bad" it is over there.

[phatcat]

WTF kinna schools did Rouge, and Goat goto???

I mean, I was in a very open environment! I could ask teachers questions. I could write what I wanted.

I think its relative....

or... its all in your head :p

[Goat Fucker]

So because u dident experiance it, it must be all in ouer minds.

Sorry to say it Phat, but thats the mentallity that kept the Apartheid in government for so long in south africa.

[phatcat]

no no no... Goat...

you missunderstand me

just becasue your situation was so horrid you don't need to say that ALL schools are brainwashing pits of dispair

I think some of the horrors of skool is in your head.
I'm sure you had some good experinces @ school

[Mason]

C'mon guys, there are good schools and bad schools(and VERY bad schools). I accept that not all of them are good, and some teachers should definately NOT be teaching anything at all. But to lump all school systems together, whether good or bad, is wrong. Need I remind everyone of the reaction to 'Dr. Gary' when he lumped all video games and gamers into the category of drugs and those addicted to them? This type of generalization sounds disturbingly similiar to me. I am sort of curious as to where everyone is going (or went) to school.

[CoffeyCan]

Nice words Mason. BTW your job sounds cool as well.

I have but a few words. School is what you make it, there are always ways to express your views. Just like life there are things that you have to do that you may not like, but alas you have to do them.

If you choose to make a stand, you have to deal with the consequences.

If you cant give a baseline level of respect to your teachers (or anyone) you really should not expect any in return.
CC

[Dank]

Check out Dead Prez....Rogue Leader and Goatf<b></b>ucker would like their stuff I'm sure (I love it myself).

Their CD is called "Lets Get Free"

Some good songs -

Dead Prez: Propaganda
Dead Prez: They Schools
Dead Prez & Talib Kweli: Sharp Shooters
Dead Prez: Animal in Man
Dead Prez: Mind Sex

If anyone wants any Dead Prez tracks drop me a line via ICQ or come on IRC (irc.utgames.com #anf or #infiltration) and I'll hook ya up.

[Elite_Soldier]

... I've read all of the posts in this thread (phew! :)). I am hearing some very influential ideas from both ends of this spectrum.

I am 16 years old, and I have already attended a hell of alot of schools. I attended an International school in China, an American school in Russia, a public elementary school in Maryland (Eastern United States), a public middle schooll in the same place, an international school in the Philippines (Manila), and finally an American school in Paris, France. My dad works for the United States government, so we move around alot.

In all of the schools I have been to, for the most part, the teachers were extremely kind. They would acknowledge the shadier parts of the United States history, how the ways everyone fel during the war (not to start any flames here, but did you know Hitler was almost loved by the people? He helped out*his* o****ry alot... too bad he was such a damn bastard).

However, in both of my public schools in the States, I have to admit students and myself are somewhat *pressured* into thinking a certain way or acting in some fashion. From singing the National Anthemn and "I Pledge Allegance" (amazing how many people don't know what the hell they are saying) tot eachers telling you the glory of US history, I beleived alot of it. I will admit when I left the States, I believed it waqs the greatest country on the planet.

Now that I have been aquainted wiht the rest of the world for the past 4 years, I've begun to actually dislike the UNited States. And I am also beginning to dislike school. It is sort of like a barrier; although you gain the protection it covers over you, you cannot leave it or experience anything outside of it.

School, in its purest form, is learning. It is helpful. However, when 3rd party sources, such as governments and religions, get involved in this kind of field, things go wrong. Just look at Nazi Germany with Hitler and his "Hitler Youth" programs. He controlled almsot an entire generation of people. An even better example would be Stalin. Even now, the some of the people he brainwashed long ago support him as a hero, even though he was a ruthless bastard who was just as bad if not more so than Hitler.

Oh yes, the idea of communism is simply brilliance. It is an incredible idea, if any of you have read the Communist manifesto. As many of you pointed out, however, the weakness IS the human factor. Humans are greedy and selfish, and that is the reason such a beautiful idea like communism will never work.

TO answer the original poll, I can't say that school is a fascit regime, however. If there were alot of schools under the jurisdiction of government or church I could agree, but for now I simply have to state that schools do restrict your freedom.

PS: Dont give teachers **** :) If you have a very well thought out argument, however, and really want to present it to the teacher in a calm, <b>persuasive</b> manner, than by all means try it. I have argued points against my teachers countless times, and you would be amazed at how some of them will respond. Sometimes you do get pricks who will just flunk you, but other times they may suprise you...

[RogueLeader]

http://www.indystar.com/print/asection/sat/articles/drawing05.html

This is an example of how schools try to brainwash students. What is really going on here? Do you they really want to brainwash today's youth into believing its wrong to use weapons to stop the U.S. from becoming a totalitarian nation? Do they want today's youth to support the government when it begins executing politcal dissadents? There is no other reason for things like this to happen. Mentioning "gun" in school does not kill anyone, or disrupt anything. Why ban guns from schools entirely? Not allowing trained teachers to use one threatens the safety of children. In Penn., before the Gun Free School Zones ACt, when someone tried to go on a shooting spree in a school the principal stopped him by pointing a gun at the kid point blank when he was reloading. In Israel, not only teachers but even trained studetns can carry guns to school, and crime in schools has dropped to 0 since that rule was passed. But with no guns to defend against shooters we get tragedies like Columbine, which gives the anti-freedom movement propoganda. We hear a lot of bs about trying to educate our children and keep them safe. Politics never cares about safety. Politics cares about itself. The first public schools were founded for the explicit purpose of making children "good citizens". Apparently a good citizen is one that thinks the government should kills people it doesn't like.

[Sebu_NZ]

Elite soldier, what school you at now?

[Jotun]

No comment on my reply about Stalin RogueLeader? hmmm interesting. My english teacher adores when someone disagrees with her or writes open mindly. She constantly says that prozac is gonna kill all the great writers... i have to say she has been very influential in my writing not only in English but OUTSIDE of English... I would post some of my poems but I dont want to be trendy and I feel these poems are written by me and for me (and maybe some close friends)

[RogueLeader]

What do I need to say Jotun? You admit yourself he wasn't a communist. And btw, the 5 year plan did do quite well. Russia went from one of the world's poorest nations to the second strongest on earth. Economically it did well anyway. I think the 20 million farmers (wern't the called kollucks or something like that? my memory is failing me) didn't like it as much. The reason for the killings is that the farmers were allowed to be capitalists when Lenin ruled, and it was always intended for that to be temporary. It is just another example of how Leninism fails. Lenin believed that a communist revolution could occur anywhere, which Marx disagreed with. According to Marx it could only happen in an industrialized nation. Because the farmers had not experienced the suffering of the workers in an industrialized nation, they could not sympathize with the socialist economy.

[Sebu_NZ]

Kulaks

You disappoint me RogueLeader :p

[Sebu_NZ]

BTW

Kulaks were hte "richer" peasants (the one who own 5 chickens instend of 3 for example). When Stalin ridded the "right faction" of the Politburo the turning point was when the Kulak’s withheld grain. The City workers had little food, Stalin now took the left ideal that the indsutry must take priority over agriculture. Withholding grain was now criminal offence under Article 107 of the Criminal Code.


I did an eassy on "Why was Stalin successful in repressing his opposition in the 20’s and 30’s.
What were some of the events that happened in the Great Purges of the 30’s." Last year, its pretty trashing in my standards now, but I still now enough about it.

Wierd how I can just remember Article 107 of blah blah blah huh?

[Elite_Soldier]

Sebu NZ: I currently attend ASP (American School of Paris). Its a great school.

As for the kulaks, yes they were the most wealthy farmers in Russia. Under regular communism, farmers found little need to work extremely hard, as they would have to give all their surplus goods (90% I believe) to the government. This basically means that if one hard working farmer makes 10 tons of wheat, 9 would be taken away (I am taking this from a history book). But if a lazy ass farmer would only make 1 ton of wheat, he would get to keep that at no loss. Under Lenin's NEP (New Economic Policy), farmers had to give 50% of their goods to the government, than they had to sell the rest of the surplus for cas, which in turn they could use to buy things. Therefore, the hardworking farmer would make 10 tons of wheat, give 5 to the government, and sell 4 to the marketplace, and be allowed to keep the 1 ton they have left. Whereas the lazy farmer would make 1 ton of wheat, give 1/2 to the government, and would only have HALF as much as the hardworking farmer to eat. Therefore the system rewarded hardworking and capitalism. Many communists were horrified at this preposition, even though it was only a temporary preposition. Stalin ended it as soon as he took office, and ordered the mass genocies of those hardworking farmes (who had recently become kulaks, as they now had more money to purchase better materials, some farm laborers etc.)

You can actually compare this to China. Mao Zhe Dong order the mass killing of thousands of landlords, and the courts that directed the trial were run by peasants themselves! Needless to say, the land owners always lost.

It proves again that there is never a communist government. It alwys begins nice and fluffy, but ends up as an opperssive regime.

[Sebu_NZ]

Im amigo of mine is in the American school in Minala. He went to my school until about 1 year ago.

[Elite_Soldier]

Did he mention a name? The main International schools I know in Manila are ISM (International School of Manila) and Brent (Catholic School).

Both are okay as far as schools go.

[Sebu_NZ]

WEll basicly he says there are two schools in Minalla,

One based off the American system
One based off the British system

He goes to the American

(Edit: I think his talking about International Schools)

[Elite_Soldier]

Yeah, he is probably going to ISM. That is the school which is based off the American curriculum system.

Brent is based off the British system, and is a Catholic school (though not too strict).

Hope he enjoys the school :D

[phatcat]

RogueLeader
there you go lumping people together again!!

dude, not all skoolz where like that!!

in my high school I was in the mits of the school shootings (1999) and we all played Action Quake 2 every morning and every lunch period in computer sci.

I would draw gunz ect.

you don't see that shiznick in Texas thats all I know. we don't put up with that. we'll take the federal money, but leaves your laws and strings at home!! :D

[N_R_A_1]

RogueLeader, where in the hell do you go to school? 6:00-4:00 and five hours of homework? I went to school from 8:00-2:30 and only did an hour of a homework on a night when I was being studious. As for your paper, you disregarded the assignment (write a narrative about an important event in your life) and tried to a smart-ass, witty paper. It obviously wasn't well-written or witty enough (if you post it I think we will find this out) to be given credit. Face it, you took a risk and you failed, now do the assignment again the right way. As for communism, in theory it would work and turn the world into a utopia, in execution it fails miserably, either turning into slavery, or a system where people take advantage of each other.

[RogueLeader]

So my teacher gets to define what is an important event in my life? That would only prove that schools really are fascist if they define how I think now. And btw, give me one example when communism went wrong. You can't because there has never been a communist country. And teh system of government when people take advantage of each other is called capitalism.

[Elite_Soldier]

To wit for both sides of the argument...

Communism is a great concept, but when it has been <b> attempted </b>, it has failed miserably. I placed considerable emphasis on the word attempted, as as Rogue Leader put it, it has never really been achieved.

Capitalism looks like the single most ruthless and barbaric system in the world... on paper. However, we all know that it simply works. The United States (and most countries in Europe) know this, and consequently despise Communism. In WWII, the Allied nations were trying their <b>utmost</b> to point Hitler and the Nazi's towards Russia. They wanted to use Hitler as buffer between Communism. They saw Communism as a greater threat than Hitler. How ironic that without Communist Russia, WWII wouldn't have been won. To add insult to injury, they were the first ones to enter Germany. Furthermore, they became the 2nd most powerful country on the planet, next to the United States (the big ol' atomic bomb has a way of putting others in their place).

However, now that Russia has made the change to free enterprise... well, you see the results.

[Mason]

Rogue, I still think we all would like to read the paper you wrote. I also fail to see how you could consider having to write that paper an "important event" in your life. If writing that paper qualified, to you, as an 'important event in your llife', you definitely need to get out more! :) While I think your paper may have indeed been inventive, it was not the assignment given, thus your grade(although I do believe a '0' is a bit harsh). You have been given the chance to write the paper again, abiding by the rules of the original assignment, I for one, would take advantage of the opportunity given to me.

Oh, by the way, did you send in your rebuttal to Gary's ridiculous rant?

[N_R_A_1]

Well, I think it's a pretty fair guess that writing a paper you don't care enough about to follow instructions is not an important event in your life. Again, why don't you post the damn paper on the forum for us to see?
You just proved your own point by saying that true communism has never been achieved. It will never be achieved because human nature prevents it, and that is why communism, though great in theory, is inherently flawed in execution and will never be achieved.

[N_R_A_1]

And also, that comment about people taking advantage of each other in capitalism: That is exactly what capitalism is based on and a reason for its success. It is also why communism has failed - it doesn't take into account that people will try to exploit the system and take advantage of each other.

[RogueLeader]

What success? 50% of the world's population lives in poverty. If that is your defintion of success I'd hate to see your defintion of failure.

[Jotun]

RogueLeader, you have pissed alot of people off now with your communistic ways including myself. I never said Stalin wasn't a communist so dont put words in my mouth god dammit. Secondly, the 5 Year Plan killed a **** load of Russians! Yeah, it did well alright... I'd hate to see YOUR version of bad... I would also like to know why you havent posted your paper? Does your paper not exist and you made this thread up in a futile attempt in twisting people's words and what they think while also attempting to get the attention of a handful of INF fans? I'm really just sick of a little ignorant communist prick twisting my words around to make me say something else...

[AtomicAxis]

Rogue Leader I think NRA1 reasoning of why captilism is a success is that all the richest countries in the world are based on Capitilsm and have alook at Russia now (sure it is capitilism but look what an attempt at communism did to its economy).

Also success can be ranked on how many capitlist countries there are as a percentage of the whole.

I think that is what he meant. Sure if you use other factors to measure the success of capitilism it will look like a failure.

[phatcat]

RogueLeader
you seem to be a rebele without a cause, so you create one :p

schools and the US GOV are not as bad as you paint them

[Mason]

Rogue, I think you are fighting a no-win battle right now. There are many capitalistic governments in existence right now as opposed to...what's that, no truly communist ones? The fact that it hasn't been achieved while capitalism has not only been achieved, but has thrived, shows that it is a 'workable' form of government while communism is not.

The way I see it, communism will not work for another reason besides human greed: laziness. When everyone is the same and gets the same, regardless of the time of effort that they put in, it breed laziness. Why work if you're going to get the same as someone who does nothing. That is why I dislike the idea 'everyone being the same'. Everyone is NOT the same, some people have a better work ethic and SHOULD recieve more benefits than someone who does nothing. Why bust your butt working if you can get the same end result by sitting on your butt?

This thread isn't even about capitalism vs. communism...it's about a paper YOU wrote, got a bad grade..er..NO grade..on, and complained because you felt the paper was not graded on it's own merit. Fair enough, but for us to even attempt to agree with you, we first need to..SEE THE PAPER! Now I am more than willing to say "OK, you wrote a good paper and got screwed by your teacher", but I have to (3 guesses) READ IT first! To paraphrase from the movie "Jerry Maguire":"SHOW ME THE PAPER!!" Four pages, 99 posts, and we have yet to see this 'mythical' paper that this entire topic was based on.

[Sebu_NZ]

Wow that means im the 100th

Anyhoo, communism was not entire responsible for raping Russia

The fact that those parindo bastards spend every last penny on the military says alot.

As the saying goes:

Either buy butter or guns


America has the luxery for both, but Russia has never been a huge economic power (one day baby!!! :)) and could only get guns.

[Elite_Soldier]

We all know that you can't eat bullets, tanks or missiles :D

Seems Russia and (currently) North Korea are being taught this harsh lesson.

As for Rogue Leader, yes, I think the best thing you could do now is show us the paper. I will try to asses as fairly as I can, and overall the forum will decide whether the grade it got was warranted.

[RogueLeader]

Yes but it seems as if Stalin was more of a dictator than a true communist.
Seems you put those words in your mouth, Jotun, not me. You admit it yourself, he wasn't a communist he was a dictator. The two are mutually exclusive. Communism is democratic (look at the quote in my sig if you don't believe me).

Since you seem to think capitalism has thrived, please explain to me how half the world going hungry is called thriving. Unfortunatly I'm ignorant as to how the suffering of billions is a good thing. The reason no communist governments exist is the U.S. killed all the legitmately communist movements (fearing a communist movement in America that would remove the status of the plutocrats in the government that comes with being wealthy in a capitalist society) and left the dictatorships alive. Most communist movements in this century were Leninist-Stalinist dictatorships, not Marxist democracies. Russia was the first dictatorship that tried to fool its working class into supporting it by using the name communist. The reason other "communist" nations did the same is because they were also started by the Russians, and not for the good of the people, but to secure Soviet security by creating buffer zones around Russia. If you want to look at the economic viability of Capitalism, just check out the U.S. The U.S. is a prime example of the hypocrisy of capitalism, a system that promotes the consolidation of money in the wealthy but depends on the concentration of money in the working class to survive. When money became concentrated in the hands of the wealthy in the 1920's, it led to an economic depression, because the working class, who need to buy things, had no money. Only the wealthy, who already had what they needed, had money. The lack of spending destroyed the economy. Only two factors contributed to the end of the depression:
1) World War II- people saved up money through war bonds, and after the war people went on a spending spree (since the savings finally gave them a chance to buy things, like food).
2) Socialism- Socialist based ecnomic policies, like minimum wage and social security restored the monetary balance.
There was even an attempt at pure socialism during the depression. Huey Long proposed equalizing all incomes, and would have run for president and most likely won, except some new orleans businessmen had him assasinated, fearing he would comprimise their immense wealth by feeding the starving masses. Even here in the U.S. today, where we have the illusion of being extremely wealthy, median income is only about $30000, about the minimum required to feed a family. As Marx said, the businesses would only pay their workers enough to get by on. The minimum wage has not risen at the same rate as inflation, and through no mystery of economics spending is decreasing.

So, Jotun, if I make people mad, that's unfortunate, but I'm sure the 3 billion starving men, women, and children in third world countries that are exploited by capitalism are pretty mad too. That is, if the sweat shops don't have rules about how children shouldn't waste time they could spend making clothes until their shoes fill with blood on such things as anger.

Edit: Forgot to address the issue of Russia's economy. Russia has always had a terrible economy. When they converted to a socialist economy, they became the second most powerful nation in the world. Now, they are capitalist again. Now they can't make missiles worth more than the tin they are made of. I think that speaks for itself. And before anyone tries to claim otherwise, Russia did not become capitalist AFTER the socialist economy failed, the Soviet Union fell because of nationalists in the soviet satelites.

[Jotun]

ok, so i did say that Stalin was more of a dictator than a true communist I should've said that Stalin was a true communist that acted like a dictator... Oh and about the 3 billion starving people, wont matter in about 100 years when the population has outgrown Earth and we're all dead... so have a nice day.... Also if i'm not mistaken North Korea (communist) is much worse off than South Korea (capitalist) so well that shows you how good communism is for the people...

[phatcat]

Communist must be "Industrial" & "Capitalist" according to Marx.

Russia was neither "industrial" or "capitalist"

Russia called it's self "communist" which was a lie, it was socialist at best, which may be a step to communist, but it, and every other never made it

it is impossible to get to the true communist state, why?

because the last step requires the person in power to give his power up. which is just not feasible!! people who have power typically don't give it up.

I'm sorry man, good intentions...

that's all Communism is.

[jaeg]

I still don't see a paper....

How can we evaluate you if you don't post it?

[Mason]

SHOW ME THE PAPER!!! (if it indeed exists) :p

[Sebu_NZ]

phat that true

but if the person will do it and the people around are willing then it could ok, though I don't see hat happening in the near future or until ____ (Rogue when is your commmunist coup?)

[sublime]

If you don't want to show us the paper for some reason at least let that be known. You haven't even addressed the issue even though it's been brought up in around 20 posts. Why are you ignoring it? Is it cowardice? Is it the knowledge that it really was a feeble, flippant, and half-hearted attempt? Is it the knowledge that the paper really doesn't exist and was simply used as a vehicle to spew forth your political views? We want to know.

[N_R_A_1]

Rogue Leader, instead of arguing about communism, could you post your goddamned paper that this topic was started about or at least acknowledge that you are being asked to post it and give a reason why you are not posting it.

[thornz]

i agree with Thunder. I started writing back before I wrote my response and he said everything i'd like to say (way back on page one).
Wow what a lot of posts. Observations:

a) not wanting to write a paper doesnt qualify you to claim the goverment as being fascist.
b) who the hell says 10 hours of sleep is what you need?
c) if you think a teachers job is easy, i'd suggest trying it when you get older. However I agree that a lot of stupid people who are not at all forward thinking somehow end up teaching high school. Perhaps it's because they never left.
d) just do yourself a favor and drop out.
e) believe it or not, knowing random pieces of info might actually come in handy. Again, the school system works on the grander scale. It doesnt assume you'll be a historian, but SOMEBODY is going to be some day. Hell, might be you. You mgiht find out you are interested in goverment or in law, and then knowing the details of the magna carta would be useful, if only as a springboard to something else. The whiner himself stated that the past is important as not to repeat it.
f) i would like to be a communist, I really would. Unfortunately that would also make me an idealist, which I can't accept. A communist nation would be a utopia and a utopia can't exist.
g) very few people can write a proper essay in this country. you'd be suprised how difficult it is for most people to write a single coherent, interesting thought onto a sheet of paper. If you would, i'd like to read your essay Rogue. Mail it to me at existless@aol.com
h) in my heart of hearts I am like most americans a patriot. I only wish america would/could live up to it's end of the bargain, but i forgive it.
i) there is a candian amongst our ranks and none of you have done anything about this? For shame...
j) the goverment doesnt sit there with a black marker and censor everything. FOR CHRIST SAKES, SCHOOLS ARE A HUNDRED TIMES MORE OPEN TO LEARNING AND NEW IDEAS THAN THEY WERE JUST 20 YEARS AGO!! And of course theyre are a lot of things you don't learn in school. Well, then go read a book then! There are ways of challenging a system and bending it's rules that will get you lauded and not thrown out. And college exists for a reason, namely to unlearn high school.
k) mason rules!!!
l) wow, comparing our school system to israel! Sweet! Maybe I can bring my gun to school, IF WE WERE IN A FREAKING HOLY WAR!!!!!!!! Comparing our contry to others doesnt usually work, as cultural boundaries and different points of views alter the ways that citizens respond to things.
m) you seem to refuse to post the paper, which adds no weight to your arguments.
n)
"So my teacher gets to define what is an important event in my life? "
well now you're just admitting you're a smart aleck. Would you really consider that paper to be an important event, except perhaps in retrospect? COULD you write a good paper about how in retrospect it was an important event? No.
o) you're doing a nice job of avoiding the arguments thrown at you. Instead you make statements that 2/3 of us already know about how a communist goverment SHOULD act and not HOW it has acted. Thats great. Thanks for the history lesson. But we knew it already.
p) people arent only exploited by capitalism, but by their own goverments. I'm not blaming them for starving, i'm just saying you can't say it's all Americas fault. Theres a lot more we can do, I admit, but at the same time it doesnt jusify the impossible feat of revamping the whole earths economy. And if you want to do that, again, drop out. Go and join Amnesty International, do something productive.

what this thread has taught me the most is that the seeds of discontent that have been sowed amongst our youth, that their elders have betrayed them and that there is no way out, have grown much since the 60's. It used to be the kids were angry and wanted change. Now were bitter and seething. You wonder why colombine happened? Why any school shooting happened? Because someone thought they got the short end enough, and that there was nothing they could do. The United States is a very paranoid place right now, on both ends. Teachers are scared as hell, and there have ben a flurry of suspensions lately over anything even remotely related to violence. I thoroughly think thats wrong, along with the idea that armed revolution is called for at this stage in our goverment. There isnt anything in this thread I havent thought myself before, or heard a friend state like it was some holy truth about the mission we must seek, the mission of rebellion. It's always there, and it never happens. Well, until now, and it wasnt supposed to be this way.

[Mason]

/me bows before the praise offered by Thornz.

Great points, ALL of them. I am curious to see what response is given though..

In my opinion, far too many kids have become whiny little wenches...cying about how "this isn't fair" or "I was treated unjustly". Wait a few years until you become part of the workforce, THEN you can b!tch about how unfair your life(or boss) is and how everything is a conspiracy against you. Sorry, but I am waaaay tired of high schoolers whining about these things. Not that all of you do this, you don't, but there are enough of you that it casts you all in this unfavorable light.

..and regarding all this idealistic talk about communism, I don't see or hear about anyone who is willing to give up their 'dirty capitalistic' possessions so that they are on an equal footing with those less fortunate(at least not around here). I think of this current fascination with communism as a fad, much like how several years ago EVERYONE wanted to 'save the whales' and more recently, everyone seems to be a vegetarian. It is, apparently, 'hip' to be 'against the man'..the 'man' currently being capitalism. Funny, I don't see anyone giving up their 'capitalistic' ways and living by the ideals they so 'vehemently' uphold, I wonder why?

The grass is ALWAYS greener somewhere else..but remember, the people standing on 'that' grass are looking at the grass you currently stand on and are thinking the exact same thing.

[N_R_A_1]

Bumped because I'm still waiting for Rogue to either post the paper or respond.

[sublime]

I was just about to bump this for the same reason. We want the paper.

[Mason]

Yeah! Way to go guys. I agree we should keep this thread up near the top until we get some response, whether it be the paper or responses from Rogue that don't harp on 'communism'. It's like a little 'sit in' strike! :) Rogue, where art thou? We just really want to read your paper so we can see how much of a b!tch your teacher is.

[thornz]

bumped while trying to learn how to play minor threat on acoustic guitar, which seems blasphemous in more ways than one.

[ThunderChunky]

I want to see the paper too!!!

[Mason]

PA-PER, PA-PER, PA-PER!!! Hmm..Rogue seems to have disappeared of late, haven't seen anything posted by him since the 7th. ROGUE, where art thou?!

[sublime]

Since you just posted in the McVeigh thread you seem to be back. Give us the paper.

[Mason]

Sublime: LMFAO! Great post! "..you seem to be back. Give us the paper."

[N_R_A_1]

Yes, c'mon, don't go chicken**** on us now Rogue Leader, how are you going to overthrow the US Government when you don't have the balls to post a paper with no consequence?!:)

[phatcat]

all bark, no bite.
like most "rebels" on the net.

[RogueLeader]

I'm back, was at a *ick* family reunion for a while. Had to stay in a retirement community with my grandmother...there was 1 redeeming value though- I had a beautiful nighttime view of the Warren Correctional Institute....makes you wonder what kind of sick person builds a returement community near a prison...

I will type of the paper when I have more free time, but I have a lot of AP's to prepare for at this time.

[phatcat]

ahh..

I see :p

don't ditch us, we wanna see this document you talk so much about :D

[Jason(Maser)]

Somethings I see that need to be addressed.

"And teh system of government when people take advantage of each other is called capitalism."

Taking advantage of each other is a good thing! This is called trade, mutual benefit through voluntary exchange. If man doesn't have the right to interaction then he is nothing more than zombie to be directed and enslaved.

"Since you seem to think capitalism has thrived, please explain to me how half the world going hungry is called thriving."

Where is Capitalism? Please, oh please tell me where I can find a Capitalist nation! The United States is the most Capitalistic(relative to the rest of the world's countries who outright claim ownership over it's people's minds and bodies) but not by ANY means is the current social/political/economic system based on Capitalism.

"Marxist democracies"

Please explain this concept. Pure Democracy is the slavery of the minority to the whims of the majority, sanctioned and brought about by means of government action of course.

"When money became concentrated in the hands of the wealthy in the 1920's, it led to an economic depression, because the working class, who need to buy things, had no money."

The "working class" define that please. The accumulation of wealth is essential for developing an idea, a means of production, paying wages, etc. Besides, 17% of the wealth is in the hands of the top 1% income earners, in the '20s it was 14%. Also, anti-capitalist programs had existed long before the great depression, ie centralized banks, subsides, anti-trust and many others. What existed at the time of the depression, mixed economy or "planned economy", caused the great depression.(in fact, Ludwig von Mises PREDICTED the great depression years before it took place) Please refer to the Federal Reserve for more causes.

"Now, they(Russia) are capitalist again. Now they can't make missiles worth more than the tin they are made of. I think that speaks for itself."

Yes, Russia is Capitalist just like the pope is an atheist, the Rhmer Rouge were misunderstood, and Mussolini fought for private property rights. Sure.... I see that Rouge doesn't understand the very concept he despises so much.

And finally, Fascism is a FORM of statism. Statism being the idea that man's body and mind belong to the state. Fascism is similar to Socialism in the respect that property is operated by a governing body(private ownership still exists in the former but to only by sanction of the government). Although Socialism is the complete abandonment of the free-market whereas a Fascist state is a mixed economy.

Sorry for continuing this conversation but with so many that can be influenced by this, I see it essential to reply.

[RogueLeader]

Actually in socialism property can be privatly owned. That is the biggest difference between socialism and communism is that communism is collectivists, meaning you do not have private property ownership rights. If you would like an example of this, look at the U.S. In the U.S. property ownership is not a right and your property can be taken away for public use.

[sublime]

Just so you don't forget I'm going to bump this.

[Mason]

/me waves his hand in front of Rogue Leader, saying "You WILL show us your paper". :D

[sublime]

Paper.

[hawaiian c]

i know this deals with nonthing of this thred but wow 1005 opps 1006 no wait 1007 no 1008 ahhh it keeps going. hehe

[N_R_A_1]

Paper? We're not going to let you forget this rogue. :)

[phatcat]

yeeeess... rouge...
da paper... where is da paper!!!

[RogueLeader]

I think I deleted the file, I may have to type it up again...

[RogueLeader]

Oh wait, I found it. Just a moment, I'll upload it.

[RogueLeader]

When I was given the assignment of writing a personal narrative, I had to face the daunting task of finding an event in my life worth writing about. Choosing what events in life are worth being put on paper, or even capable of being put on paper, can be difficult. Having found it difficult to remember a significant moment in my life, possibly due to my severe sleep deprivation, I feared that I would not find a suitable subject for the paper. It only took a couple of days before I gave up on trying to think of a moment in my meaningless existence worth writing about. Instead I figured out that I could just write about writing the personal narrative; or perhaps I had thought of it before and simply didn't remember it.
The next problem to solve was how to meet the requirements of the assignment. Attempting to do this would be very difficult for a paper I am forced to write, let alone one with such an insultingly pathetic subject as the writing of that very same paper. This would be made even more difficult by the sleep deprivation that has been imposed upon me by the many sleepless nights I have spent desperately trying to finish meaningless school work. The first requirement listed was creativity. Since I had resorted to the subject of writing this very personal narrative, I decided it would be a waste of time to even consider that. The next requirement listed on that evil sheet of paper was to write with feeling. Since years of losing sleep had destroyed my ability to feel anything, I abandoned this as well. Had I been able to I still would have not been able to write anything of descent quality. The writing of an essay is hardly the kind of thing a person can write about with great feeling, as even the hatred of such a tedious occupation would be drowned out by the intense boredom. Writing with clarity would be difficult. By the very nature of the subject it would be essentially impossible. Since I was writing about what I was writing, the situation created a paradox; I would have to write about everything I wrote about-then write about that. Such a recursive loop baffled my mind.
With none of the requirements having been met, I stopped before writing this paragraph to consider whether or not to destroy what little free time I had and continue writing. It took several minutes of deliberation before I decided that for once I would do my homework, even if it didn't meet any of the requirements. Had I enjoyed my free time instead the sleep deprivation would have quickly claimed those memories anyway, so such a choice would have been in vain. I continued with the production of my narrative essay.At this point it was becoming difficult to generate much more to write about. I had already droned on and on about how my sleep deprivation had already destroyed my mind and how difficult it was to write the essay, something that was manifesting itself at that time. However, the true beauty of my subject shone through when I realized I could write about not having anything to write about, which is what I am writing now. It was an excellent way to waste even more space, and more paper which could have been used for something worthwhile. I now had the difficult task of closing the paper.
Creating a summery for the narrative essay would be difficult, so I felt it would be best to write about writing the summery. However, this produced the very paradox I was trying to avoid. I had to write about what I was writing about-and what I was writing about was what I was writing about; an idea almost as confusing as the wording of this sentence. At this point I was about to go into seizures trying to sort everything out in my head, so I decided it was time to stop writing the personal narrative.

I think some of the indentation and line endings got messed up pasting, but you can get the gist of it.

[phatcat]

seems kinna short

looks liek a good 1.5 page rant. which was off the subject your teacher assinged, and sarcastic

if your a rebel more power to ya. but you should be prepared for retaliation. and it was a bad grade

IMO I think you deserved it.

[RogueLeader]

It's supposed to be short. my english teacher is the only teacher that gives us a MAXIMUM page limit. In this case the paper was 2.5 pages double spaced, the maximum it could be was 3. Now, notice how I didn't even attack how much BS the assignment was. I make fun of MY OWN topic by saying that MY OWN topic is insulutingly pathetic. Also, you call this joke (and the paper was a joke) "rebellious". As my teacher herself said when she called my parents, this assignment was supposed to be fun and imaginative. When a teacher wants an assignment to be fun and imaginative and she punishes those whos papers are fun and imaginative, it's called "hypocrisy".

[phatcat]

there is a difference in being funny, and sarcastic.

[Mason]

Rogue, excellent 'creativity', with not one bit of respect given to an individual who has dedicated their life towards the education of others. You basically 'thumbed' your nose at your teacher and everyone in the class who took the assignment seriously and wrote the paper that they were assigned. I am not really surprised at your teachers' reaction to your anti-establishment paper (OK, that might be a BIT extreme), but at least she offered you the opportunity to write a new one, I hope you reconsidered and wrote it. You could have written the same paper in a more 'positive' manner, and still gotten your message across. I found your paper humerous at first, followed by an increasingly insulting sarcastic tone. Thanks for sharing the paper with us, it was very well written(IMHO), even if it was insulting and sarcastic.

[RogueLeader]

I don't see how it insults her. Obviously, it is sarcastic, but I don't see where I say anything negative about her. And I did reconsider and wrote the assignment again. I made up the event though. I wrote about a time I told a joke to someone and they didn't get it and they thought I was crazy and insulting. That story sounds a lot like something that really did happen to me...

[Jarvis Hamilton]

Look, rougeleader, I'm getting real tired of this.
You got a bad grade on a test.
You are angry at your teacher.
And you accuse the American government of facism because of it?
That, my friend is random logic.
Go get a punching bag and write George Bush on it.
We don't need to hear your b*tching about it


JUST LET IT DROP, PLEASE!

[RogueLeader]

The suppression of creativity is only part of fascism. Suppression of free speech, random drug testing, searches, metal detectors, and propoganda are the rest. So...what do YOU call it when the government suppresses opposition to itself in the youth so that they never think to question the government's decisions?

[phatcat]

your "experession" of sarcasim is the insult rouge. you insulted her assignment that she designed, and threw it back in her face.

she obviously wanted it to be enjoyable. I would kill for HS assignments like that when I was in HS :p

but you decided to use it as a fourm for your debate that you knew very well that would fall on deaf ears.

but that your game :hmm:

[Mason]

Thanks, Phatcat, that is EXACTLY what I meant. Rogue, just because you didn't SPECIFICALLY insult someone, doesn't mean they aren't insulted by one's comments.

[Mad_Dog]

i'm not sure how to say this... but a lot of the time you have to put your own personal views aside to avoid hurting/offending/annoying someone needlessly. this isn't matter of watering down your own views or selling out, it's a matter of respect for someones personal dignity. and sarcasm, in this case, certainly wasn't respectful.