About pistol precision...

[Nukeproof]

About pistol precision:

My impression is that the pistols are too precisely on mid-/long distance.

To let you know right at the beginning: I have close to non experiences with real guns, but I do have technical understanding.

What INF does right now is holding the barrel of any gun 100% right angled to the screen. This means the barrel is also 100% coaxial with the outstreched arm and aiming-view.

This seems perfectly alright to me for longer rifles but reaching described precision seems allmost impossible in RL with a pistol where the iron sights are located at a distance of something like 20cm and the first part of it is at a distance of an arm-length to your eye when aiming. An angle mismatch of 2 degrees (which seems not much to me, especially in vertical direction) would translate into missing the target about 1m at a distance of 30m.

If things are meant to be the way they are to make the pistols more useful I don't complain, but for realism the angle mismatch through human imperfection should be taken into account.

[Nukeproof]

wanted to start another topic instead of replying myself...

[The_Fur]

For some reason you never have to line your sight up in inf, shooting is just too easy. Also because the bullets don't come from the weapon itself so when it bounces around it doesn't hit where it's pointed at that moment.

[Nerf Herder]

I thought the system worked on the basis of where the barrel is pointing is where the bullet goes?

[The_Fur]

nope, it's just like a crosshair only now it has the shape of the gun in front of it.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

It might be of some note that while it is a bit of a stretch on a 9mm (stetch not impossible 9mm lovers can bite me it is the truth) the 357 DE as well as other pistols (the 1911-a1 and the mk23) have a LONG range for pistols. It is not unrealistic for a good shooter with any of these to have a decent grouping at 100 yards. Most people simply dont shoot this range because of the control it takes, and the fact that most shooting rangers dont even allow for pistols at 100 yards, this is considered by modern standards to be rediculous when in fact it is not.

The 1911-A1 in fact was designed for this. The military needed a handgun capable of dropping a man with one shot at ranges up to 100 yards, so that officers and medics did not have to carry rifles. and POOF here comes the 1911 (the original was made in 1909 released in 1911 and remade into the 1911-A1 around WWII) a 45 auto capable of a pie pan size group even in (by military standards) shaky hands at 100 yards. I have seen a Marine Corp Sgt put all seven shots from the mag into a two inch hole at 100 yards while free standing. And it is rumored that Steven Seagal can put them in a half inch group at the same distance (yes he really was a Secret Service man and really does do law enforcement training)

Now if you want to go down and buy some POS el cheapo grande pistola at your local pawn shop dont expect to pull this off, but for a well made military spec piece (like for instance the auto-ordinance/thompson 1911-A1, the Springfield 1911-A1, the H&K MK23, and several others) this is a fact for modern shooters and more than possible.

The game is simply reflecting that.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[The_Fur]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the .45 known for it's suck ass performance?

Even when fired from a long barreled weapon (DeLisle silenced Carbine) it had about a reach of 100m.
Tommygunners complained about the lack of accuracy beyond 50m
The .45 could be stopped by nearly any form of armour (even read someything about two russians shooting eachother to test the gun and the bullets were stopped by their padded jackets).

[{LOD}WolfBear]

hehe yes the ammo and performance you are talking about was standard military ball for awhile (about a four year run of it in fact). Back when people thought the only thing you had to do to make ammo was stuff gun powder primer and bullet into a shell a POOF you have ammo. The original ammo for the 45 produced the desired results, but later the US discovered Russians had a means of making ammo much more cheaply and faster so they adopted it (obviously forgetting the fact that at that point in their history russians had the worst ammo in the world, so were buying alot of stuff from china) which is when the 45 got its bad rep. ANYWAY if you take a modern 1911-A1 and put good quality FMJ ammo in it you can drop a guy at 100 yards no problemo. (strangely enough the US military is so sick of the performance of the beretta 9mm which gets dirty and fouls easily they are looking into going to the mk23 for the standard sidearm which is chambered in 45 auto) btw shoot a guy at 25 yards with a 45 and even if it dont go through his vest you are going to crush alot of bones, and likely burst his heart if ya hit him right. Oh and the FBI is again equiping certain teams with Thompson Sub Machine guns. Just an FYI

http://www.auto-ordnance.com/ The Thompson gun websight.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun- THE 45 auto addict

[Nerf Herder]

Umm. The military isn't planning on replacing the M9 with the MK23. The MK23 or SOCOM Special Operations COMmand pistol is meant to be an offensive handgun. It's meant for special forces operatives. It can be used in conjunction with a silencer for taking down sentries. The M9 is supposed to be a very reliable firearm. Granted the MK23 is probably more so, but would also cost a good deal more.

And yes the FBI does have spare Thompsons however they're in love with the MP5 in 10mm.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

I will conceed the FBI is in love with the MP5s, and that Thompsons are still rather rare, the point was they are still used. On the MK23 front yes they are looking at it as a possible replacement for medic/officer weapons. and yes right now it is a special ops only piece. Them m9 is a great firearm as long as you dont get it wet dirty muddy or dusty (hrm desert storm or any water op ever done) unlike the 1911-A1 which literaly as long as your barrel is clear you are all go even if it has a turd wrapped around it. The m9 also has more parts that are easily damaged during a field strip which was not an origianl consideration (after all if it farks up in battle just take it back to the armoury right? I mean all you got to do is tell the battlefield rep you need a timeout. DUH)

Anyway the 9mm is a fine round for certain aps, but even law enforcement divisions are trying to get people to go to 10mm or 40S&W because of all the 9mm flaws. (I mean come on it is a 380 auto with a little longer hull, and a slightly heavier bullet weight PLEASE folks) What flaws? easily diverted from target by obsticals (ie glass brush etc) also while it can down a target some targets (ie drunks and folks on drugs) take multiple shots before dropping, and if you are wearing lvl IIA equivilant armour whoever shoots you is pretty much gonna piss you off more than anything else. (What constitutes lvl IIA? read up on FBI heavy cloth you will be amazed)

As for cost, yes that is probably the reason they will not implement it. The military has a cost factory that says the cost of fixing a problem does not justify its repair until the problem costs at least twice the amount the fix would or if not fixing the problem would prevent a required action. (ie how may $3500 funerals of service men and women does it take to justify reissueing every firearm the military has? Although I will give them credit probable cost counts to. IE we are going to send 1000 men here and they are going to cost us $3,500,000 to bury when they are slaughtered and we are going to lose their equipment at a cost of blah unless we issue this weapon at a cost of $1.2 mil total so lets issue.)

Being a military brat you learn ALOT of this kinda BS about the military,

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[{LOD}WolfBear]

oh just a added note Nerf Herder, you are right they aren't planning it they are looking INTO it. IE it is in a committe so when hell freezes over they might actually do something.

{LOD}WolfBEar{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[Nerf Herder]

Yeah. The whole switch to M4's was kinda surprising though. The 9mm can be an effective weapon when you get good ammo for it. Unfortunately the military can only issue ball ammo so...

[ShakKen]

/Bites {LOD}WolfBear

9mm Parabellum has a flatter trajectory than .45 ACP. And the only 1911s I know of that can do 100 yards into a man sized sillouette are not stock service pistols.

But as for the rounds, 9mm parabellum has inately better performance for shots out to 200 meters(out of a 9inch barrel subgun) Without needing too much drop compensation.

By the way. Targets in the field do not often stand still. you fire your shot at 100 meters, and it takes a third of a second to get there. Even if you DO by some miracle manage to get the shot on target with the government model's small and inadequate stock sights, if your target was so much as jogging at the time you would have missed him. So much for the 'no problemo' 100 yard shot.

Given that ballistic vests are ablative and delaminate the force of shots over a wide area, you'd be lucky to bruise the guy if he was wearing a good vest.

The 9mm has no such flaws as being 'easily deflected' or easy to armor against. If you'd check out the NIJ ratings you'd see that 9mm is one of the only handgun rounds with the capability to threaten level 3A. Expecially the Eastern steel core ammunition. While .45 is at the lower end of the spectrum.

The .45 is far more easily deflected because of it's rounder profile. Which allows it to slow down quickly in the body. The 9mm parabellum's sharper profile means that the impulse forces of contact are all dumped right at the end of that little tip on contact. Allowing it greater penetration. Simple physics. Pressure=Force/Area

The smaller your area, the greater your pressure.

The .380 auto is a 9mm parabellum with a shorter straightwalled body. The 9mm parrabellum is in origin a bottlenecked 7.65mm(.30 cal) cartridge blown out to a slightly tapered 9mm profile.

If it's lethality you want, any round does well given accurate shot placement. Anyone who complains about the lethality of 9mm Parabellum has obviously never been shot by one. This round is the first of the true modern high intensity rounds.

Anyone who knocks a round that has seen more combat than any other handgun round in the world doesn't know what their talking about. Not only has it seen combat, it's performed WELL.

Personally, I've seen it take enough bull**** from American naysayers.

[Zundfolge]

Personally, I've seen it take enough bull**** from American naysayers.

I've always had a personal preference for the .45 over the 9mm, but for reasons that have almost nothing to do with military use of a firearm.

Most firefights engaged in by civilians and police occur at under 10meters, and in this range the .45 has a better track record then the 9mm (that said, the 9mm does a damn good job too...Much better then .38 special or .32ACP). For the CCW weapon that I will carry on the streets of the real world I want that heaver round, because if I have to draw my weapon it's going to be fired without acquiring sight picture and at a range of like 25 feet. Also part of the point of a CCW weapon is peace of mind, so for me there is a psychological advantage to the .45ACP (or .40S&W).

If you use any gun in self defense and your target is 100meters away, you are going to jail :).

So I think sometimes people look at one application of a particular weapon system or ammo and try to apply that judgement to other applications, it just doesn't work (for example the 5.56mm has an even better record in regards to stopping power then the 9mm or the .45ACP, but you can't carry an AR15 in an IWB holster :) ).

Now in a military application, the 9mm is a real good choice, especially from a quartermaster's point of view. When you have to supply a company with ammo it's a good thing when the ammo you get will work in more then one type of firearm.

Also the larger capacity of most 9mms over most .45s is an advantage. If shot placement is the key to stopping power, having more shots to place is a definite advantage.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Well Shakken I will give you credit you are making it very hard not to call you an idiot. If you think a bullets shape makes it more easily deflected dont ever get in front of a 30-30 winchester or a 45-70. (and basic physics has very little to do with projectile physics due to differences in assumned velocity) Yes the 9mm has performed well, but yes it IS easily deflected (I am a military brat, I have a law enforcement background, a CCH license, I have been a security guard, and I help several of the gunsmiths around teach folks how to shoot, the 9mm is easily deflected at certain angles where the slower heavier 45 is not as easily deflected) Steel core ammo is NOT standard issue, and the standard 9mm ball can be stopped with a level IIA if you are looking at standard 9mm ball, not specialty ammo. BTW even many paramilitary groups have flak jackets which acts as level II vests for most rounds (dont shoot them with a 22 itll go through like hot butter) Level IIA is the most common jacket used for military and law enforcement, and other than the bullet hitting the trama plate a 45 at close ranger (less than 25M) is going to break bone and knock the wind out of you at best) 9mm ball round will stop, and you will get several bruises. (And no I have not been shot with a 9mm, just grazed by one.)

As for the 9mm seeing more use than any other round I would like to know how you figured that one since the 1911-series 45 auto was not removed from service till AFTER VIETNAM. (ie 9mm has seen desert storm 45 has been in use in Korea vietnam WWI WWII etc etc etc AND is still used by the navy seals. if the 9mm is such a great round why is the mk23 a 45?)

My Thompson/Auto-Ordinance WWI Pakerized 1911-A1 has a 6 inch group at 100 yard with the original sights using fmj ball with ME holding it. as for a man running DUH I dont know of many targets that stand still in combat, but if you know how to use them standard iron sights are just as effective as any other BS. As for being the first intensity rounds bud ya better check again. The germans had a 36 caliber high intensity round WAY before they ever played with the 9mm and they invented it so bite me again.

A 9 inch barrel? are you on crack? since when does ANY military handgun come standard with a 9 inch barrel? put a 45 in a nine inch barrel and you will see it pass the distances on a 9mm. The 9mm does have a flater trajectory, BUT for a shorter period of time (ie bullet drop on the little lightweight is greater than the 45 at a longer distance.) And if you are going to argue a rounds effectiveness since when do we compare high end ammo with low end ammo to try to win an argument? My 9mm steel core can beat your 45 lead ball, well no ****. and my 45 hydroshock will make your 9mm ball look sick. Compare ball against ball or the argument is invalid.

If shot placement is the key to stopping power? Give me a break, yeah with the 9mm you need multiple shots, but when a 45 will drop with one shot at the same distance (ie in that less than 10M firefight) More than one type of firearm? Lets see the 45 will work in a 1911, a 1911-A1, a mp5 (yes they do have one chambered for the 45) a thompson submachine gun, a wilson 1911-a1 carbine, one of the japanese "grease guns" will use it, etc etc etc. SO please dont give me the more than one gun approach the 45 is chambered for almost as many guns as the 9mm and the military does not use any of those either.

Now that that is all said let me change the beat here a little by saying this. Yes the 9mm is an effective round, yes it has a much higher velocity than a 45. Yes it has performed well, and Yes it is cheaper lighter with less recoil and does have a few advantages over the 45. For sheer stopping power the 45 is the way to go between the two and it is what I use, HOWEVER I would like to say that there are better rounds than the both out there.

The 40S&W has close to the same stopping power as the 45 with a velocity close to the 9mm. It has lower recoil than the 45 and only slightly more than the 9mm. The cost is about the same as the 9mm (for the military yes I know how overpriced it is in the civy market) An there are better choices than all three if you read your balistic data and study up on the rounds.

As for American Naysayers BS bud welcome to the crowd. You have just naysayed the 45 round that if it had never been invented our country would likely have lost several wars.

I would like to state I am not here to offend anybody but come on, enough is enough. I have admited the 9mm is a good round, In my opinion the 45 is better, in in FACT it deflects less easily and has seen more US military service. If you want to go beyond that there are better rounds than both why does the military not use them? Cost.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

Editited because I cannot spell :P

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Oh on the Shot At Shakken at the begining of the last post I must appologize. It WAS uncalled for. and bullet shape does have SOME to do with deflection, but only in an EXTREMELY minor way. Bullet shape has more to do with drag coefficient, and thus velocity. Also if you take a look at fmj ball in 45 and 9mm the are almost identical except for size. (IE The shape of the bullet and roundness of the nose is near identical but miniturized)

An Offical Appology from the LOD Hothead

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[ShakKen]

{LOD}WolfBear: Given that I've already been though military service, have 2 citations for marksmanship and am qualed with not only a service rifle, but also with a handgun AND submachinegun you'll forgive me if I'm not impressed.

Projectile physics is ALL about basic physics apart from the increase in the number of variables. Namely you're now dealing with a projectile with resistance as a factor variable.

However, I know from experiance that 9mm ball does NOT deflect easily. Case in point, find an empty steel fuel drum, the one that's about 2 feet in diameter, take an M1911 loaded with 230 grain ball and a Browning High Power loaded up with 124 grain ball. Start plinking away at the barrel shifting the shots off center more and more as you go with each weapon.

I garauntee that the 9mm will still be making perforations long after the .45 starts getting deflected off the side.

Steel core is military issue in Czechosolvakia, and most recently Russia, with the introduction of the 'Grach' 9mm handgun.

NIJ certifies that 124-grain 9mm FMJ at 426mps is stopped by Level 3A and at 358mps by level 2. Level 2A will stop the round at 332 mps. Now, last I checked 358mps is already in the range of most 9mm handguns. And it will perforate level 2a without complaint.

And that's the official NIJ rating. Somebody here is bull****ting.

While 230-grain .45 FMJ at 253mps is checked by level 2A.

Let me now tell you a fact that you may not know, a 230 grain bullet at 253meters per second has little more than 10 joules for muzzle energy than 124 grain ball at 360 meters per second. That's out of a 1911 and browning high power respectively. The .45 is an efficient manstopper because it's shape allows it to dump it's evergy quickly, while the 9mm parabellum tends to cut though it's targets. The notion that .45 ACP has loads more raw power than the 9mm Parabellum is a myth. A myth that has been mathematically proven.

Given the efficiency of modern trauma shields, the .45 doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of so much as bruising though a well made vest. Trauma layers delaminate the force of a .45 ACP shot over a radius of 25 centimeters. Bruise my ass.

Tell me now mister wise ass, how many countries in WW2 used the .45 ACP in their weapons. Then tell me how many countries based their weapons on the 9mm cartridge. I doubt the US uses more firearms than the rest of the world combined. Tell me of you can what was the most widely successful handgun during WW2. (hint; it's not the 1911.)

The MK23 is a .45 because it was built to and for US specifications. I doubt any other non-American agency claims the title 'SOCOM'.

Chuck Taylor can't do a 6" group at 100 yards with a 1911 and you want me to believe that YOU can. You should be competing in IPSC buddy. Next thing you'll tell me is that was a STANDING group.

Before the 9mm, the Germans were using the 7.63 parabellum. And from what I gather it was total ****e. Which is why the 9mm was introduced.

When I said 9 inches, I was clearly referring to subgun barrels and no I'm not on crack.

I seem to recall an incident where a a stray 9mm ball round went though a boys ankle outside a shooting range some 1.8 kilometers away. I certainly doubt .45 can match that at all. .45 travelling further than 9mm is physically impossible. The 9mm parabellum round has a better ballistic shape, and it starts out faster out the barrel. Less drag, more velocity, any high school grad who took kinematics can predict the conclusion to that contest.

And I do believe I was comparing ball with ball thus far. I'm not sure what your irrelevant tangent is about.

You seem convinced that .45 is some sort of magic bullet that will take anyone down with one shot. I strongly suggest that you attend a proper handgun training course and learn how important shot placement is with any round. People have taken 9mm, .45 and even .357 magnum shots though the torso and kept going. No matter which round you fire, if you don't place it well, you cannot garauntee a takedown. Any experianced instructer will tell you that. Your saying otherwise makes me doubt whether you know ANYTHING you're saying.

You find me this miracle MP5 chambered in .45 ACP. We're not talking about some fool's custom subguns here. We're talking about weapons that have seen mass production and have a reputation for taking care of business.

The 9mm MP5 is still the most widely successful SMG ever produced. 9mm still corners the majority of the subgun market. More than 60% at this time. .45 is an ever smaller minority the only ones still in production that come to mind are the Ingram type subguns, the micro Uzi, the UMP and the M16K. Once again, you're rather lacking in real information. You could easily fill a book with the number of 9mm subguns still in production.

In terms of stopping power, yes, the .45 was built for that and in a hardball to hardball comparison, the .45 has 9mm parabellum down cold. .45 also tends to have a straighter trajectory since it spins more out of the barrel. In terms of penetration and logistics, 9mm takes the .45 down with a vengeance. No round has had a greater impact in subgun development than the 9mm parabellum.

Indeed many of the new autopistol rounds are looking impressive. I've personally got my eye on .357 Sig. Or '9mm Magnum' as I personally refer to it. It's a pity that neither .40S&W nor .357Sig seem to be getting any attention as a military service round.

Wars are one by the people that fight them. Weapons are a tool. If John Browning had invented the High Power before the 1911 in the States, America would still have a fine weapon.

In trained hands, 9mm Parabellum can perform just as well as .45 ACP. If you would try my prescribed test above you'll find that 9mm ball does in fact NOT deflect more easily than .45. I've tried this myself on a bet. At the time, I was betting against 9mm. I lost.

9mm Parabellum has seen more international service than any other handgun round produced to date. The world does not revolve around America. As for what America uses I find of little consequence.

[ShakKen]

DOH! I already fired back :P

[Pleuresaap]

i think the heckler&koch pistol the US army is looking into is the USP .45. it is being considered as a replacement for the beretta.
the MK23 SOCOM wich is the offensive handgun for meant for SF ppl were talking about. they don't really differ so much. this is the heckler and koch usa website check it out: www.hecklerkoch-usa.com

[ShakKen]

BTW, I was referring to European 9mm ball with the sharper profile. US M882 tends to have a rounder nose.

The one's I favor have stainless-steel-like cupronickel jackets that come gradually to almost a point.

http://www.winchester.com/bullet_images/new_small_bullet_images/pistol/rotated/q4172.jpg

Quite similar to this Winchester ball round.

[The_Fur]

Yeah... SPANK THE US :D

[Snakeye]

It has been a while since my last post, let's look if I still know how this works..

Nice to see, that the INF forums still have that lively discussions. I guess I've seen such 9mm Para vs .45ACP discussions before, but this one became especially interesting.

After all that posts I still have two questions:

1. AFAIK the 9mm and the .45 have about the same (muzzle) energy(the .45 a bit more IIRC..); if both rounds hit a bullet proof vest, and both are stopped, that would mean, that both would deliver all their energy to the vest and the person wearing it. Is that right that far?
Now why would any of these rounds have a bigger effect on the person, when nearly the same energy is delivered?

2. I often hear US citizens complain about the Beretta M92 aka M9. AFAIK the US took the M9 because of the reliability(think I read it was the most reliable sidearm in the US army evaluation test) and because Beretta would built a factory in the US, which SIG would not at that time(don't know for sure, just read it a long time ago..). Most articles I read praised the M9 being reliable in any environment(including desert), and I never heard any other user(Italian army, the French Police etc) complain about the M9. Now is that gun really as reliable as praised and can the US just not survive the fact they use an Italian handgun, or are the US complains based on facts?

That would be it for now, answer would please me..

Snakeye :D

[{LOD}WolfBear]

actually the US does not mind using itallian or any other countries weapons (or at least this American doesn't) Tarus and Ithica are both extremely popular here and neither is made in the US (Norinco was popular until the import ban) As for European 9mm rounds being different from the US I will concede. The 9mm round you are talking about has more taper than american rounds.

As for being a wise as yes I am, and an Expert to. If you think that much of your berretta lets take the 1911 completely out and run the berretta through the same saltwater and muck tests as the MK23 and you will find you are losing ground fast.

The US problem with 9mm (and mine btw) comes from the modern round. The german 9mm made for the broom handle (exact specs are lost to me for a minute although it had a tapered caseing) was a EXCELLENT round, and the russian (I believe it is 9.62 but again it escapes me) round is also a fine round. The problem we are running into gentlemen was started by me. I assumed we were dicussing the weapons as used in the US since that appears to be the was INF is designed (please no more flames I realized all of these are used elsewhere but alas my brain was not engaged when I started my mouth) And thus was comparing it with US ammo.

In the US we run into a particular problem. Our law enforcement divisions have to care sidearms capable of dealing with people using MUCH higher end equipment. Thus the 9mm aint cutting it. (The FiveSeven is one of the arms designed to help with this problem)

As for standing and making that group no I was on a bench rest, and before you give me flak for that there are plenty of improvised places to steady yourself in a urban setting. As for how many countries used the 45 and 1911? Well lets see the US, Britian, and Australia to name three (not to mention China, Argentina and several others) (As I already appologized once I will refrain from flaming you again)

As for the MP5 chambered in 45 auto the model was tested but never released as the three calibers it was chambered in (9x19mm Luger, .40 S&W, and 10mm Auto) would suffice for most contracts and it was believed by H&K that a fourth chambering (regardless of caliber because it turns out they were also playing with a 380 version) would hurt sales. As of this last year they have gone back on this idea and have released it in 45 acp and 40S&W as the H&K UMP. so as much as I hate flaming you you deserve this one EAT **** IT IS OUT THERE. http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/ Look under military weapons and scroll to the bottom of the MP5 page.

BTW as any street cop if out there what an NIJ rating means and he will tell you it is a broad outline. (You do realize bullet proof vests expire right?) The material in a bullet proof vest breaks down over relatively little time (see most manufacturers and they will give you an idea how often you need to replace the pads in the vest) There for if you have a vest that stands up mathematically NOW and you use it in a war (say for instance you have it for three or four years when it has a date of about two) Are you really going to want to risk you life because the 9mm can be stopped by your IIIA so lets go gung ho??? (BTW you mentioned the trama plate when I specifically said if it does not hit the trama plate.)

As for qualifying on a range bud I was shooting on military qualification ranges when I was a kid. So don't even try to pull that as you are some wonder boy. A blind jacka$$ can qualify on a military range.

No the 45 is not a miricale round, but in applications we run into everyday in the US it performs better in many cases than the 9mm. Yes I agree the Sig 357 has been overlooked, as well as the 40S&W, and other rounds. DO you know WHY the germans had so many problems with the luger btw? (It aint because of the ammo) The thing had so many parts it could not be field stripped and cleaned effectively.

As for shooting competitions I have been in them, and no I have not won any for pistol know why? Because they are based on accuracy second time first (ie if you get a 12 inch group but in half the time as a guy with a 6 inch group you win) (I have won several minor ones for combat shotguns but that is a different story. (I use a plain jane mossberg 500 series pump in 12 guage no fancy BS))

I appologize again that we got off onto the wrong foot. I made assumptions I should not have, as did you. As for Americans hating this or that dont assume to much buddy. . .Most Americans that you DONT see on TV hate those you do for the same damned reasons you do. I used the best suited Firearm for my purpose I dont give a rats ass who designed it. I like an Enfield in 303 for deer at long rang, I like my Chinese SKS for hog and large varmint hunting at intermidiate range, and my very freaking favorite gun of all time is a 1911-A1 so forgive me if I like at least ONE thing my country has done right in the last 100 or so years.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

Edited because again I cannot spell

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Oh btw I will be away from a computer this weekend so I will have to pick this Up on Monday Central Time USA

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[Zundfolge]

You find me this miracle MP5 chambered in .45 ACP.
I think he's talking about the UMP .45 which is kinda MP5ish :rolleyes:

Chuck Taylor can't do a 6" group at 100 yards with a 1911 and you want me to believe that YOU can.
Not MilSpec but with an off the rack Kimber or Para Ordnance or other high quailty 1911 I believe that 6" at 100 yards is do-able by someone like Chuck Taylor (however this IS a discussion of MilSpec weapons so I guess that doesn't matter)

9mm still corners the majority of the subgun market
Subguns and pistols are apples and oranges

Indeed many of the new autopistol rounds are looking impressive. I've personally got my eye on .357 Sig. Or '9mm Magnum' as I personally refer to it. It's a pity that neither .40S&W nor .357Sig seem to be getting any attention as a military service round.
I'm leaning more and more toward .40S&W Both the .357sig and .40S&W are beginning to get some coverage in the gun press, and they are both starting to see service as a police and civilian sidearm. I'd like to fire them...can't tell much without squeezing the trigger.

People have taken 9mm, .45 and even .357 magnum shots though the torso and kept going. No matter which round you fire, if you don't place it well, you cannot garauntee a takedown.
Agreed, but if you don't have the opportunity to acquire sight picture and can't guarantee the best shot placement, then I want the largest/hottest round I can get to do the most damage possible (but that's purely from a civilian CCW/self defense position, which has very little to do with military use of a handgun)
Which gets back to my point that people look at one area where a particular caliber excels and then claim that it's the be-all-end-all best round.
I still think that as a military sidearm the advantages/disadvantages of 9mm and .45ACP make it pretty much a wash. Where I in the service I wouldn't have any reservations about carrying either of them (or the .40 or .357 either)

On a side note; I reciently thought of the old saying "A .22 in the hand is better then a .45 left at home." :)

[ShakKen]

The UMP does NOT qualify as an MP5. It's a differant series of weapon HK is trying to promote amongst US LE agencies.

"(You do realize bullet proof vests expire right?) The material in a bullet proof vest breaks down over relatively little time"

Now, seeing as this has very little to do with the conversation, I'm assuming you're using this irrelevant bit of knowledge to throw me off. Kevlar is a meshed material that is woven toghether like sackcloth it's also laminated with nylon between layers to reduce wear. after time the edges between swatches fray. That's about a year of solid use. Even then it will still stop a hardball fired from a 9mm at 10 meters. Thread seperation over time is accounted for by manufacturers when they produce the vest.

Having worn one though a 6 months worth of indoor training in a killing house, I should bloody well know.

The argument is, does 9mm pierce body armor better than .45 ACP. And I believe we extablished this as a fact. Do not try to throw the conversation off track.

"As for qualifying on a range bud I was shooting on military qualification ranges when I was a kid. So don't even try to pull that as you are some wonder boy. A blind jacka$$ can qualify on a military range."

When you qual, you run 11 kilometers slick with your weapon, field strip and reassemble your weapon within 3 minutes, zero your sights within 22 rounds, then attemp to hit 44 targets with 44 rounds at 100 meters. I doubt a mere kid has the physical endurace to last though that. Have you tried taking a timed popper after running 11 kilometers? It's not about being a wonderboy, it's about having the physical and mental ability to begin with. Being a KID, you don't have that.

I've seen people who hit the sillouettes at 400 meters miss by miles because they overexerted themselves during the run(which is timed btw). So don't pull that bull**** about being to hit the targets easy unless you've actually DONE the course. As a KID indeed.

Another irrelerant bit of trivia on something that has no bearing on the conversation. What does the Luger have to do with anything? The 9mm Parabellum was introduced as a replacement for the 7.63mm Mauser, which did the job, but had a poor platform. The Parabellum was originally a 7.65mm bottlenecked round which lacked the terminal ballistics of the 7.63 so Gearg Luger blew the case walls out to acommodate a larger projectile.

Indeed this debate would have been better had we been somewhat more patient. Admiittedly I am a little stressed because just about everywhere I look I get this horrible pimp on the 1911 everywhere I look. Mostly by fanatical Americans. It's given me a nasty stereotype, but personally I feel that for those that can carry it, the 9mm Parabellum is a superb round. And really doesn't deserve the bad rap it's been getting the past few years.

And some myths that have cropped up, such as the .45 ACP travelling further, penetrating better and so on.

The .45 is a good round, but I feel compelled to correct people that believe it is better than it really is. However, had I to buy a gun in the states, It would probably not be a 9mm given Clinton's hi-cap ban, which is a load of **** really.

I'll certainly give you that though, if there's one gun that the US had right from the start it's the 1911. My first piece was an auto-ordnance which I had lightly modified with Millet sights, Pachmeyer grip panels a reliability and dehorning job.

Despite the inconsistency with auto-ordnance guns, I managed to roll a good dice. It shot well after the first 100 rounds went throught it and I never had any trouble with it in the 3 months I had it.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Acutally SHakken I would like to say that even TODAY I could not make that 11k run then hit a thing. In the US the soldiers do a march (just march not run) to the site line up, and begin fire practice. Seeing that most ranges are with 5 miles of the barracks this is not a horribly difficult thing to do. Again I will appologize for this one (It seems I am going to start off these forums by sticking my foot in my mouth alot) as I did not specify I was speaking of US ranges. (I have also shot on the Marine corp range which is 1000 yards, with a 30-06, but that is neither here nor there.)

The bullet proof vest argument was thrown in not to throw you, but because I felt it was a relivant detail. As for the 9mm being able to piece it easier I will give you that one as well. The Argument seems to have happened here because we (At least I know I have) are sick of the other sides argument and went full guns from the git go.

The 9mm is a fine round in many applications, and by no means did I intend to argu differently. But between Clinton's BS gun laws, and the fact that we are haveing so many situations in the US in which the 9mm (much of the problem being due to the fact that most american 9mm ammo sucks) just cannot do the job.

It also pissed me off when it was accused that my problems with berretta had to do with the fact it was not made in the US. Let me state my problems with berretta are less than my problems with glock that IS made in the US, and most of the guns I truely enjoy are made outside the US.

The original 45 auto round was made to replace the 45 long colt, which was designed to drop a chargeing horse at 100 yards, but was a revolver, and slow to reload (single action revolvers dont have swing out cylinders for those who are watching this thread and dont know) and the 45 auto was designed to do approximately the same thing.

The UMP IS a different variation, and again I will give you this one. It is not an MP5 but an updated new line based off of the MP5 frame. (again the 45 version and 380 version of the mp5 were never released due to sales concerns)

As for the 9mm luger being thrown in it was as a sideline, partially due to the fact that I was trying to point out the 9mm is a valid round, but it is STILL my personnal beliefe the 45 is better, and I am too hard headed to change that.

I perfere a 45 auto to a 9mm, and considering that in my country I cannot have over a 10 shot magazine unless I am a law enforcement officer I think the preference is justified. At any rate I grew up with 1911s am confortable with them, and have a great deal of good luck with them (for the most part I owned a ballister molina, argentinian 1911 for a short while and it would not chamber two rounds without jamming)

As I have stated most law enforcement departments here are trying to get their officers to go to 40S&W due to prejudices here against both the 9mm and the 45, and quite frankly I like the 40S&W as well as the sig357, and even the 10mm. For a bit law enforcemnt (around the time the 9mm was adopted) was considering adopting the 7mm round, but it was found that several layers of heavy clothing would stop the round pretty effectively, it was just TO light to do the job.

At any rate I will drop the line here as we have so diverged from the original thread that this is accomplishing nothing.

To answer the original thread btw no the pistols in INF do not shoot to far, as many pistols are actually able to do this. Bullet drop may be a little off but to be perfectly frank who cares. The INF game is the best conversion I have ever seen for UT, and while most of us want to keep it as real as possible, we also want to maintain the amount of fun that brought us here in the first place, so lets not pick EVERY detail to death.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[ShakKen]

True that, Clinton's gun laws are a load of BS. If you don't undertsand guns you can't expect to handle them. I'm fairly comfortable with the .45, but I often feel that there aren't really many good platforms to use them in. My preferance is DAO guns and the only one with a 10 round capacity that doesn't waste space is the Glock 30. I can't say I'm a fan of ultra-compacts(I don't believe that using a magazine floorplate as part of the grip is a good solution.). So for space efficiency, If I were to get a handgun in the US it would be a CZ100 in .40S&W.

Actually, Glocks are exclusively made in Austria. Glock GMBH vehemently rejects any licence manufacture contracts. Probably because they want to keep their polymer manufacturing process a trade secret. Imo, Glock polymer IS the best ;)

On the other hand, many Beretta Model 92FS handguns ARE made in the US. This was a requirement to meet military supply of the handgun. And why Glock never competed for US service. It's an interesting fact that the first shipment of Berettas into the US from Italy were a crappy batch with poor quality metal in the slides.

Yep, .45 ACP replaced the long colt and the .44-40. Dead on there.

The UMP is not based on the MP5 frame. It's actually closer related to the G36.

The MP5 itself could not be made in .45 ACP because the recoil impulse generated by the round was not sharp enough, and they couldn't find the correct bolt weight. .380 ACP was never attempted(No point after all.) Aside from that there was never any demand for either from anyone but the US. And to put a new version of MP5 was too expensive a process without market demand.

The UMP is cheap to produce. And had the US LE market in mind. which why it came primarily in .45 and .40.

"but it is STILL my personnal beliefe the 45 is better, and I am too hard headed to change that."

Honesty I like :) Say what you believe and that you believe it, but don't turn opinions into facts. Something I have to remind myself sometimes.

Good shots fired mate, thank goodness we were both wearing our Zylon.

[Zundfolge]

Actually, Glocks are exclusively made in Austria. Glock GMBH vehemently rejects any licence manufacture contracts.
I was under the impression that Glock has a manufacturing plant in Smyrna, Georgia (the Southern US State, not the Russian state). If they have one there they would have built it because there are serious restrictions on gun imports. Most of the world's major gun manufacturers have plants in the US, because we're a big freakin market and building here is about the only way to easily access that market.


BTW, I found an article about that kid that was hit by a 9mm from 1800 yards!
http://www.plusp.com/thingee1.html

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Again I have to agree with alot of what you say SHakken (now that we have both stopped taking cheap pot shots :P) but I have to agree with Zun I could have sworn that the glocks were mostly made in Georgia (although I could be wrong)

As for the UMP I am still fairly certain it is based on the same frame, and the 380 and 45 chambered mp5s was something I heard on the history channel here in the US when they were talking about H&K.

Yeah I hated to se the 44-40 go (yes you can still buy the guns and the ammo but they are rare and mostly lever action rifles) just as I absolutely hated to see the 32-20 go (talk about a great round, If it had ever been modernized I would say it would have been one of the best, but unfortunantly even the stuff you find now in 32-20 in the US is either lead ball, or el cheap fmj shtick)

as for the CZ100 afraid you have me on that one bud. I have never fired one to my knowledge (although I have probably fondled and drooled all over some poor schmucks at a gun show) (I say to my knowledge because I went though a period of cleaning peoples handguns for pay on the side from a local gunshop. I cleaned then test fired a few hundered different guns in about three months, so other than a notable few I can't say for sure on ALOT of pieces if I have fired them before.)

I also got an email from somebody, I assume form here on the forums, who was rather pissed that I had turned my nose up at that ballister molina without even taking it to a gunsmith and attempting to get it fixed. As for that I would just like to say If I purchase a piece and it does not work properly right out of the box (we are tallking new piece as this was not surplus) I am not going to spend time and money on it unless it is truely a special piece, and the BM just was not that special to me. (Now if I had gotten instead say a german broomhandle I would have spent ALOT of time and effort on it, but not on a misfunctioning poor made Ballister Molina.) That said I would also like to say (before I get any more flames or emails) that I know of several people with ballister molinas who have had no problems. I was one of those unlucky cases that got a bad one and gave up on the line.

Another idea has occured to me Shakken. Could it be that the original shipment of Berretta's is the reason so many Americans are down on them? I mean once a people get an idea into their heads, even the truth tends to have little, if any, effect.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

-checking his trama plate for dents :D-

edited because I cannot spell to save my life

[{LOD}WolfBear]

oh and Zun I have an article somewhere of a kid being killed in east Texas from a misfried 22 two miles away (talk about bullet arc sheesh) Even the box warns it is dangerous to 1.5miles. AND it is possible to push ANY bullet WAY past its performance if you are determined enough.

Example The worlds record prarie Dog shot is from a benched shooter with a 308 rifle 1900and some odd yards away. The 308 is normally claimed to have a max accurate range of about 600-800 yards depending on who you talk to.

And I should point out (and should have kept in mind before I started this mess) that ANY bullet is dangerous in the right hands. In the state of texas it is illegal to hunt deer with a 22, in the state of Texas it is also common knowledge that for the past 30 or so years more deer have been killed with 22s than any other rifle. (Texans hate antigun laws even if they make sense :D ) I have seen people (namely my grandfather who was a marine corp sharpshooter and a drill instructor) lite matches with a 22 from beyond 15 yards (no I have NEVER been this good) and there is a man who shows up on TV here fairly often before and after hunting and gun shows that is supposed to be the fastest, and most accurate gun alive. I have seen him do some INCREDIBLE shots with a 45 colt revolver. (went to see him in person once just to see if it was real or just TV turns out the guy really can do it all)

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[Zundfolge]

Could it be that the original shipment of Berretta's is the reason so many Americans are down on them?
The complaints I heard about the first M92s was the fact that you could remove the slide from the frame just by pulling it off the front of the gun! (most of the people complaining where police officers. Imagine pointing your piece at a suspect, and having him reach up and grab the slide, pull forward and you no longer have a functioning weapon :eek: )

However that's old news... most everyone I know swears by their M92 (however I hear that the Taurus copy is to be avoided.)

[ShakKen]

Zundfolge: Do they? That's a new on one me actually 8|.

{LOD}WolfBear: I know that one lot of Berettas has slides with poor grade metal used in their slides. They would develop cracks down the thinnest portion of the ejection port, then derail explosively. One side flying off the front of the gun, the other into the user's face(O_o).

Needless to say this didn't bode well, and Beretta quickly published a report of poor metallurgy on a batch of guns. Seems like this problem has been solved though.

As for American's being down on the Beretta, I think they're just sore that the 1911 didn't make it's century in service;)

There were some reports of Berettas conking up in the Gulf war due to fine sand clogging up the mechanism, but then again, Beretta received thousands of letters from US soldiers thanking them for making such a fine handgun that didn't quit under stress.

Whether those reports are true or merely the narcissistic moans of longtime 1911 fans I don't know.

[Zundfolge]

Zundfolge: Do they? That's a new on one me actually 8|.
I saw it on the History Channel' "Tales of the Gun" It was either the one on Berretta or on Autoloaders in general. They actualy showed a video clip on how it was done.

One of my cop friends had read something about it in some LE publication and had done it himself (consequently he didn't carry his Beretta on duty after that)

I dug through every gun resource I could find on the net for a reference to this issue, but all I found was a brief mention of it here...

http://www.snipercountry.com/roster/AllArchives/duty0699_12_16.htm
(toward the bottom, in a message from a guy named Mark J. If you go to the page and do a find for "Mark J." it will take you right to it).

Not exactly a conclusive source, but at least I know I'm not loosing my mind :)

EDIT I found one more reference to it here...
http://beretta.squawk.com/technical/armclass.htm
This guy is a gunsmith...
I'll just quote what he said so you don't have to dig through the whole thing.
The takedown latch on the Beretta is the subject of much discussion due to the supposed "Jackie Chan" disabling technique, which, the urban myth tells us, allows a properly trained person to strip the slide and barrel off the gun in one quick motion. Beretta now makes a replacement takedown latch which does not have the finger shelf, requiring much more leverage and a sharp object (like a fingernail or cartridge rim) to push into the downward position. However, the original/standard latch was designed to allow soldiers in the field (where they might be wearing heavy gloves) the ability to get their guns fieldstripped quickly and easily in the event they fell into mud, etc.

It seems to have been an overblown problem :rolleyes:

[Zundfolge]

... narcissistic moans of longtime 1911 fans...

http://www.sightm1911.com/

Read their "1911 vs M9" article

[ShakKen]

Zundy: I was talking about the American based Glock plants actually.

Don't see anything in there about the Gulf war reports.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Yea basically you could rotate the slide catch on the berretta like 180 degrees and pull the slide off (which is the way you remove it for cleaning.) I would like to state while this is NOT a myth it can be done, I would not want to be the one to try it because while you are doing that the officer is more than likely pulling the trigger.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[Col.Sanders]

On topic:
I have personally witnessed a .45 stock out of the box fire 1" 7-shot groups with factory ammo at 25 yards. The shooter's wrists were supported on sandbags which were themselves rested on a wooden shooting bench.

Off-topic, on-thread:
1) The in the argument between Shakken and Wolfbear seems to wander across three issues:
a) 9mm pistols versus .45 pistols, in general,
b) the 9mm FMJ round versus the .45 FMJ round in pistols,
c) the 9mm subgun versus the .45 ACP subgun, in general.

I have to side with Shakken on these points:
The best SMG's are mostly in 9mm.
The 9mm FMJ is more streamlined than the .45 FMJ.
There is no significant demonstrable difference in effectiveness between the best 9mm rounds and the best .45's except hard-target penetration.

But I'd like to point out that both rounds are weak when compared to other rounds, like the 10mm, .45 Super and .460 Rowland which spank them both and will fit into any gun the .45 will. .45 vs. 9mm is a debate that will rage for centuries and never be resolved because they are close enough not to make a difference. Just shoot 'em twice, or use a 12-gauge.

2) And regarding the Beretta 92 being easy to take apart, it really doesn't matter, because someone who knows that much about the gun will know where to put his fingers on any gun to keep it from firing until they take it away. New take-down levers for the 92 have little pointy bits which "discourage" people who've seen Lethal Weapon 4.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Actually no the argument was which one of us has bigger nads. What don't you read testosterone? Besides try disableding a 1911 hehe you have to push the slide toward the hammer , meanwhile some redneck like me is pulling the trigger :D

And yeah I would like to see some silly SOB try to pull the slide off a modern berretta with somebodys finger on the trigger, hehe

Officer *What is that son?*
Solider *It is a gib sir, he tried to steal my slide*
Officer *very well carry on carry on*

As for any other argument it is null and void we both agreed we are to hard headed to change, and dont want to anyway.

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[Col.Sanders]

Actually, Wolfbear, the 1911 is one of the few guns which will not fire with the slide slightly out of battery. Some expensive .45's for SWAT teams have "Meat Tenderizers" on the muzzle, mounted to the frame, which prevent pressure against the front of the pistol from unlocking the slide and engaging the disconnector.
Notice how the 1911 does not always have a full-length dust cover (portion of the frame under the slide ahead of the triggerguard)?

The Glock has a full-length dust cover, which prevents the slide from unlocking when the gun is pressed into a "target".

There are too many variables when we are talking about grappling for a gun to compare designs for "un-take-ablility".

[{LOD}WolfBear]

actually we were not comparing for untakability (or at least I wasn't) the statement was about the fact that it is a bad idea to try ANY gun in ANY condition.

As for the 1911 slide statement bud I own one (a mil spec on at that) and it will fire a HECK of alot easier than you think it will even with the slide move particaly back, if you don't get that whole 1/8th of an inch or so pushed back on it (which takes about 40lbs of pressure on one with good springs in it like mine) the somebody is going to shoot you (and after all, all they have to do is pull back a tiny bit and then shoot you anyway.)

A marine at camp pendelton once tried to prove this point to my grandfather and pushed on the front of the his (the marines not my grandfathers) 45 then pulled the trigger, unfortunantly he didn't have it back quite far enough and the trigger engaged but did not drop until he let go (blowing a hole in his hand and getting him court mashalled for destruction of government property ie HIM)

(BTW every male in my family over the age of 18 owns at least two guns (most of us more than that), a 1911 and a shotgun or rifle, this statement (about the slide) works with every 1911 I have seen or messed with. eq Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Auto-Ordnance/Thompson, Charles Dailey, and a Ballister Molina. If it helps any not one of us agrees on whose is the best 1911-A1. But thats just because they all know my Auto-Ordnance/Thompson is the best :D )

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-

[Col.Sanders]

I was just pointing out design features which make the weapon more susceptible than others to fail to fire when in contact with the target.

I think we both agree that grappling for a handgun is not good for either person involved and best left for the movies.

[{LOD}WolfBear]

Yeah I agree, if you really want to talk about design flaws with that wort of thing though there was a company here in the US for awhile (cant remember their name but every danged gun the made had the word night in the name Nighthawk, Nightprowler etc etc etc) Anyway this company was real cheese and several of their little "affordable" autos had extremely loose springs in them, so loose in fact that before the US government banned their "staurday night specials" you could litterally put a thumb against the muzzle of several models and they would not fire.

They were popular in drive by shooting etc because they ran about $90 for a 9mm, and about $80 for a 32 or 380. The US shut them down about the same time they shutdown Lorcin firearms who made similar garbage. (A friend of mine had a Lorcin 380 it would jam every other shot, and set in a bench vise you had about a 3 foot group at 10 yards. His parents bought it for him when he was driving back and forth to college because of all the car jackings at the time, boy did they get ripped.)

{LOD}WolfBear{:D} -my daddy was a pistol and I am a son of a gun-