what's you're religion? [Archive]

Keiichi

3rd May 2001, 03:28 PM

Seriously though, I never met an athiest until the Internet... what does that mean?

That most people (at least that I know) are too scared to admit that they're atheistic in anything but the anonimity of the internet, so they simply lie and say they're a Christian (or Buddhist, Muslim, whatever). If I were to tell my parents that I'm an atheist, they'd probably lock me in the attic and call a priest over to "fix" me. It's a whole lot easier to simply pretend that I'm a Christian, at least while I'm in front of them. It's kind of odd when you think about it. You people, a bunch of [technical] strangers on a game forum, know more about who I really am than my parents do. Wierd, ain't it?

-Keiichi

Eliwar

3rd May 2001, 03:43 PM

agnostic and athiest are different, they shouldn't be in the same catagory on the poll. I'm agnostic myself.

DLL

3rd May 2001, 04:26 PM

All you guys that don't believe there is a God or are unsure of it... what is the primary reason for this?

I once had a conversation with an athiest over chat and found that her reasons for being an athiest had nothing to do with her belief in God... it had to do with her belief in Christians. She had seen so many Christians do and say so many un-Christ-like things, that she decided that Christianity was a false religion and therefore there was no God.

So, do you guys beleive in good and evil, right and wrong? Do you beleive in evolution? Do you beleive we cease to exist after we die?

xirus

3rd May 2001, 05:17 PM

I'm an atheist (althought I'm officially christian...)

here in belgium almost nobody goes to the church or believes activelly (on TV they seem to go to the church in the US?)

A religion is just born cuz peeps couldn't explain things (thunder, death,...) but now they can so why would we still believe?

yes all you believers will say 'we don't know **** and jadajada...' but you have to admit--><h2>people made religions and god, god didn't make people...</h2>

and now believers will say: what is the purpose of life then? and then I will answer: there isn't any, humans are here for no reason, our existance is coincidence..... if you want a purpuse in your life, you shall have to make one-->raise a child, make a lot of money, be happy, go to bed with +1000 women...

The good things about religions are the values (be kind to each other etc), so if that's what religion is about, it would be good. But as my teacher once said: The church raped the believe. So all this god noncence.....and the church did some VERY bad things in the medieval ages...

when we die, there is NO soul that continues living, or we DON'T go to heaven... we just euhm...die, nothing of os continues living, our brains just stop

what do you mean by evolution? you mean like the big bang, that we come from monkeys etc? yes, I don't believe god created us :D

KOFFEYKID

3rd May 2001, 05:25 PM

go to bed with 1000+ women. Well i'm supposed to be cristian but i'm unoficially atheist. Well i dont really beleive in god. Although the bible is the most historicaly correct book in the world to date. But i mean sereously. i need proof. like a big guy in the sky saying i'm god. folllow me. Otherwise there is no way to know the truth. some guy could have made up god and people blew it out of preportion. But then the thought of no god is kinda scary. Knowing that when you die you won't be a thinking entity. You'd be wasted energy and matter. Just dust flying through the sky in no particular direction.

My morbid thought for the day.

Mad_Dog

3rd May 2001, 05:36 PM

i'm an archaeology student, so i am a firm believer in evolution, but despite all the reading and lectures, no one can explain how it started. big bang? where'd that come from? everything has to come from somewhere... ouch my head hurts, gotta stop for a bit. :)

BlueSniper

3rd May 2001, 05:50 PM

I believe that there is a force of goodand a force of evil. None of wich are live beeings, but more of auras.

I believed that humans labeled this unknown force as a being, there fore it needed a name: GOD is wat they called the force of good, Satan is what they called the force of evil.

I do not believe in god as a being, rather as a way of doing things. how many would agree?

NotBillMurray

3rd May 2001, 06:04 PM

Athiest, but my dog tags say "no religeous preference".

I simply don't say, and have rarely been asked.

Nick_Drake

3rd May 2001, 06:39 PM

I'm pretty much with Xirus on this one. I've never believed in god(s). Ever. My parents were in no way religious, never went to church, and never talked about god(s).
I've been asked many times about my religion/beliefs and I always tell the blunt truth.
I don't believe in god(s).
I believe in evolution.
death is the end.
good and evil exist only in our minds (making them no less real IMO).

RogueLeader

3rd May 2001, 06:44 PM

Wow, its pretty cool it see a lot of other atheists here. I live in Indiana so everyone here is a fanatically conservative christian (we have the largest population of klan members in the U.S.). Here if you say the earth revolves around the sun you get burnt at the stake...

Nihilizst

3rd May 2001, 07:06 PM

Hi DLL, I wouldn't mind sharing a thing or two regarding your questions on atheist and agnostic beliefs. Speaking for myself, the primary reason for which I do not believe in a god or gods comes to the question of what people define as god(s).

There are many - the Christian God, the Greek gods, the Norse gods, the Asian gods, the Islamic God, the African gods and so forth that I do not choose to put more weight on any one deity. I recognize these figures to serve as models; as higher beings to look to for guidance and security in the lives of believers. I understand that the outlines of a religion provide people with a sense of meaning in their lives, a provision of morals, a sense of brotherhood, to ease the fear of death and the encouragement to abide by religious conduct in preparation for a good afterlife.

I am not lost without religious ties; my life is no less meaningful without church, and I can still choose to be any sort of person from one end of the extreme to the other whether or not I have religious affiliation. To me, there is no god. But that doesn't make someone else's belief in one to be invalid.

I think that religion gets a bad rap. I don't really think religion is evil and disappointing than the failure to recognize that we as individuals allow ourselves to lose responsibility and direction in our lives when we see ourselves as little maggots in the eyes of some supreme being or decide that since there is no god, or at least god doesn't care, we can be apathetic and cynical for the duration of our lives. Human nature is not to be discounted. We fight constantly. As costly, tragic, and high-tech wars can be, it's still Rover and Fido having it out on who gets to mark his territory on Mr. Roger's lawn. Animal behavior at its best - or something.

So anyways, yes, I believe in right and wrong, good and evil - as in standards, not in the belief of a heaven and hell. I believe in the left, the right, and everything in between. I believe in evolution, and I believe that there are innumerable things we have yet to discover and understand. Death would most definitely be agreed upon to mean "ceasing to exist" for the most part...but I suppose in memory, anyone you wish can live forever within yourself and those you put an impression on.

TheShiningWizard

3rd May 2001, 07:21 PM

I don't think about what happens when we die. Nobody knows, so just see what happens. No point in thinking about it.

I'm kinda caught somewhere between Athiest and Agnostic (leaning towards Athiest). I don't believe in "God," and I don't really care if there is one or not. We came from somewhere, and someday we'll die. Who knows what will happen next, and frankly, why bother caring?

The only people around me that don't know I'm an Athiest are my GRANDparents, since they (Grampa in particular) are SUPER Christians who would prolly kill me if I told them, or at least not buy me stuff anymore (And I need to get stuff from them soon, since Mom and Dad are getting divorced and the wallets are vulnerable. Hey, I'm poor, I need to mooch off them.)

Anyway

I'm perfectly comfortable telling people I'm an Athiest if the need exists. I don't run around yelling "HEY EVERYBODY! I'M AN ATHIEST! JESUS HATES ME! YAY!!!!!!!!!" or anything.

I was a Christian for 12 years, a Muslim for 3, then I gave up on religion and it's uncomfirmed beliefs. Why bother caring if there isn't proof?

None of my friends care what my religion is, anyway. They see me for the person I am.

RogueLeader

3rd May 2001, 07:21 PM

Religion isn't the problem, its the people that twist it to meet their end. People like Robertson and Falwell who try to twist Christianity into bigotry where there is none, or the Klansmen I have to deal with so often here in Indy. But most Christians I know are tolerant modern people who are still comfortable with people even if they disagree with them.

BTW, I heard the FUNNIEST THING EVER yesterday. Jerry Falwell called someone ELSE a bigot! Thats like Hitler calling someone else a murderer...

Nick_Drake

3rd May 2001, 07:29 PM

I like a lot of what you say Nihilizst.
I especially like:
I am not lost without religious ties; my life is no less meaningful without church, and I can still choose to be any sort of person from one end of the extreme to the other whether or not I have religious affiliation.

In fact, I often feel that the lack of religious ties (beliefs) helps make my life more meaningful. I know that I have a short time to live and that death is the end. This knowledge makes me enjoy each day. Life is about living. That's it. I feel no guilt about enjoying my life and living the way that I want to. I am the ultimate judge of my actions. It's very empowering.

Nihilizst

3rd May 2001, 07:43 PM

Right, I don't make a point of making sure everyone knows my religious disposition or lack thereof. My parents are devout Christians (my grandfather was a pastor) and they do know I am atheist.

I remember having a discussion with my father on the role that christianity played in his life a few years ago, and being the 16 year old pseudo-worldy idiot I was, tried to argue with him on the non-existence of God.

My father then told me, "It doesn't matter whether God exists or not. What matters is that living by Christian conduct makes me, in my eyes, a good person, and I enjoy my life. I'd like for you to see that one's personal beliefs on the right way to live does not make him better or worse than anyone else..." So that pretty much gives me the respect or at least tolerance of anyone holding non-atheist beliefs :p

Keiichi

3rd May 2001, 11:14 PM

I, for one, find the idea of nothingness to be far more pleasurable than the thought of an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent God sitting in judgement over me once I die, rating my life on a scale of good and evil, and damning me to an eternity of torture in hell if I don't measure up to His standards.

-Keiichi

Dank

3rd May 2001, 11:36 PM

I am a Buddhist. :D

TheShiningWizard

4th May 2001, 12:38 AM

*Applauds*

I'm glad you guys were able to keep this thread civil. I've encountered plenty of fundamentalist *******s, both on the web and in real life, who have nothing better to do than run around telling everyone who isn't a *Insert monotheistic religion here* that they're going to burn in hell for all eternity.

Does anybody here get e-mails that try to threaten people into joining their religion? Those are so bloody annoying.

Ballistophobia

4th May 2001, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by Keiichi
That most people (at least that I know) are too scared to admit that they're atheistic in anything but the anonimity of the internet, so they simply lie and say they're a Christian

Not me, most of my friends and of course my family know I don't believe in god, but I don't make myself out to be a grandiose, officious moron about it. I've yet to ever bring up religion with anyone, it's always started by someone first before I'll throw my $.02 in. It all doesn't really matter to me, I know what I know and I'm content with others believing whatever the hell the want to believe. They'll probably live happier than me with what they believe so why ruin it for them?

Originally posted by Keiichi
I, for one, find the idea of nothingness to be far more pleasurable than the thought of an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent God sitting in judgement over me once I die, rating my life on a scale of good and evil, and damning me to an eternity of torture in hell if I don't measure up to His standards.
-Keiichi

When I used to say to myself "there is no heaven" and all that, it came to me one day that there really is, it just depends on how you look at it. We put RIP on the things of the dead, so to me heaven is nothingness, eternal rest. Maybe that's why we feel more comfortable with coffins, even though I don't believe energy is as exponential as some, I really don't know anything so the matter that we're composed of could carry on, even though I highly doubt it. So maybe that's why humans have subconsciously chosen RIP.

<a href="http://www.tribes2review.com/"><img src="http://jrock628.homestead.com/files/otsig.jpg" border=0></a>

AtomicAxis

4th May 2001, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Ballistophobia

It all doesn't really matter to me, I know what I know and I'm content with others believing whatever the hell the want to believe.

I agree with you. The problem I have with religon is the people (not all I know, but some) who try to convert me. Sure they can try but I say no they should leave it that. They keep trying and irritates me.

I think its alot easier downunder as religon seems to be a more personal thing. Most people I know are either Athiests or Agnostics. If they do believe in a certain religon then it's not really discussed. Which is fine with me. What I think of you as a person doesnt have anything to do with which religon (if any) you believe in.

Mad_Dog

4th May 2001, 02:06 AM

EnVy1049 - outta curiousity, what were the circumstances where you were a christian for 12 years and a muslim for 3? not too common...

omen

4th May 2001, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by Mad_Dog
i'm an archaeology student, so i am a firm believer in evolution, but despite all the reading and lectures, no one can explain how it started. big bang? where'd that come from? everything has to come from somewhere... ouch my head hurts, gotta stop for a bit. :)

then where did god come from?

see the problem :)

DLL

4th May 2001, 03:00 AM

Thanks for the candid answers guys.. and thank you for not trying to ridicule my beliefs.

I respect your beliefs, but I am saddened by them. Please don't think I'm trying to be condescending, because I'm not. I cannot "prove" to you that there is a God. God has proven Himself to me many times in my life, and I'm sure I could share some of my stories and while some of you might be touched by what I had to say, you still would not have the concrete proof that you seek.

I do think that a lot of people choose to not believe in God, yes the Christian and Hebrew God, because of the way that professed Christians have acted.

If my beliefs seem somehow tragically misguided and naive, I ask that you respect them as I respect yours. Who knows maybe I'm right..? I believe so with all my heart. And I will never tell you that you're going to hell. To do so would be unwise, and beyond my knowledge to determine. All I can say is live your life justly, do good, and perhaps you don't need to find God... perhaps He will find you.

Ballistophobia

4th May 2001, 03:19 AM

Thanx AtomicAxis. Once I was riding to meet my friend somewhere and this guy almost knocked me off of my bike just to give my a god flyer or whatever they are. I yelled at him while I keep riding and I saw my friend so I rode over to him and like 30 secs later that bastard caught up with me and tried to give me the flyer. I can't stand that.

omen, I've said the same thing. Like when people say something had to create us, but if something created us what created it? Eventually you run into a wall where something just had to be, and that's us. Also, if there was a "heaven" think about 500 hundred years there, then think about 1 million, then think of a billion. Imagine how sick of things you'd be. That's why I like the thought of nothingness more.

<a href="http://www.tribes2review.com/"><img src="http://jrock628.homestead.com/files/otsig.jpg" border=0></a>

OICW

4th May 2001, 03:45 AM

I am Catholic and I go to church regularly. I believe in God, and his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy spirit..

I do believe in a heaven and a hell, though I do sometimes ask myself whether there may be an after-life. But we all doubt, so I am not too disturbed by it.

Not to try and convert you Ballisto, but I have been asked that question before (about how long it would be) and I said this:

"It may sound like a long time to us here on earth. But my view of heaven is that is will be nothing like Earth. There will be no evil or wrong things in it, but eternal life there will not seem like a long time at all. We cannot imagine an eternal existance because we are not living in one. Eternal life in heaven will seem like no time taken at all, and we cannot imagine that here."

Well, at least we know one thing. we'll all find out whether there is an after-life or not, but unofrtunately once we know, we cannot do anything about it. If there is nothing, then that's it.

Mad_Dog

4th May 2001, 04:57 AM

omen - thats where my beliefs come in... i am a believing catholic, though not as practicing as i should be, and to me god started it, and if it ends, he'll end it. where god came from, i got no clue, but i like to think i'll get the chance to ask him someday. :)

and this is a great thread everyone. i didn't know what would happen when i started it, but i, and i hope the rest of you, like what i see. :) the INF commmunity rocks!!

Sebu_NZ

4th May 2001, 05:46 AM

My belief is that

1) We naturally evolved from Monkeys (or whatever)
so the whole God created us is scientifically disproved millions of times, Im a scientific person (get that from me momma :) )

2) It is physical impossible for a human-being to magically "heal" people.

I grew up in a Catholic family, Church very Sunday, This is my belief, my parents respect that, I openly state I don't believe in God there is no shame in that.

Nanodragon

4th May 2001, 02:31 PM

Strict and official atheist.
Theoretically I'm Jewish (my mom is Jewish) but I don't believe in any god or religion.
I hate racist people, because you can't judge someone by his/her religion. I have had many discussions with racists in other internet forums.
Thanks for keeping this thread clean
Dragonfly

xirus

4th May 2001, 03:18 PM

If everybody who has officially a religion, but doesn't believe, quits his religion officially...how many peeps would be religiouse then?

I actually shame myself for the peeps in the future...they will think: those peeps all believe in a God, hahahaha... And they don't really know that we don't believe, but they will base theirselves on numbers.

(ps, that hahaha...I don't have anything against peeps who believe, nor do I think they are dumb or something, if they do, that's their choise, and I won't try to pull them over to athiesm...)

Buddy_Pickle

4th May 2001, 03:23 PM

Quoted from Keichi:

-------
"I, for one, find the idea of nothingness to be far more pleasurable than the thought of an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent God sitting in judgment over me once I die, rating my life on a scale of good and evil, and damning me to an eternity of torture in hell if I don't measure up to His standards."
--------

I would rather believe that smoking twelve Cuban cigars a day actually improves the condition of my respitory system, but that doesn't mean it does.

The idea that I could eat two Big Macs, three pizzas, and a foot long hotdog every day at lunch would make a slim, trim vision of manhood is MUCH more pleasurable than the thought of it contributing my early death due to heart disease / obesity.

I also find what is "wrong" to be sometimes much more desirable than what is "right", but that does not make it any less wrong.

So with the idea of "nothingness", vs. the existence of a God or Creator being a better setup, what the hell would be the point? And if there IS no point, then who cares? Why should I care that there are people somewhere in this world that want to molest my daughters, or some guy that wants to set fire to my house? Why don't we all just dump video games all together, meet in a deserted warehouse somewhere full of over-sized crates and boxes, and play standoff mode till all but one of us is dead?

I am not trying to say that any of this makes the existence of a God more likely, nor am I attacking you Keetch, but I am curious how a preference for nothingness provides a sense of purpose or quality to ones life...other than a way to justify immoral or abhorrent behavior. Or how nothingness is any more the probable reality than the God scenario? Is it because its the easier choice? Just my thoughts....

DLL

4th May 2001, 03:43 PM

Very well said BP.

Also, as far as science goes...

I have faith in God, but I have little faith in man's knowledge. Big bang, and evolution theories don't mean anything to me. Yes, they are the expert opinion's of today's scientists, but let us not be blinded by our own glory.

A few thousand years ago, the world's top scientists believed the earth was flat. To believe otherwise was to incur ridicule. I can imagine some scientists a few thousand years from now slapping each other on the backs and laughing "Can you believe they used to think we came from apes?!" /laughter erupts

"ah, here it is, So-crates. 'the only true wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing.' that's us, dude."
-ted (to bill)

Keiichi

4th May 2001, 04:13 PM

I would rather believe that smoking twelve Cuban cigars a day actually improves the condition of my respitory system, but that doesn't mean it does.

The idea that I could eat two Big Macs, three pizzas, and a foot long hotdog every day at lunch would make a slim, trim vision of manhood is MUCH more pleasurable than the thought of it contributing my early death due to heart disease / obesity.

I wasn't trying to say that, because I find the idea more pleasurable, that it makes it true. What I was trying to convey when I wrote that was that I have no need to fear death. Many people ask me, upon realizing that I'm an atheist, that death must scare me sh*tless, because I don't believe in an afterlife. That's not the case. As I said before, if it came down to being judged by God or simply being nothing at all, I'd choose nothing.

So with the idea of "nothingness", vs. the existence of a God or Creator being a better setup, what the hell would be the point? And if there IS no point, then who cares? Why should I care that there are people somewhere in this world that want to molest my daughters, or some guy that wants to set fire to my house? Why don't we all just dump video games all together, meet in a deserted warehouse somewhere full of over-sized crates and boxes, and play standoff mode till all but one of us is dead?

I'm not sure just exactly what you're trying to say, but I'll take it to mean that you want to know what the point of living is if there isn't a God and, subsequently, an afterlife. The point of living, for me, is simply to live. The idea that, because I don't believe we go to some magical happyland when we die, means that I don't care if my daughter is raped is ludicrous. I care because I'm a good, decent person.

Before anyone uses the age-old argument that there can be not good without a God, because God created morals, I'd like to quote an article that I read about this very issue:

Taken from Atheist.org (http://www.atheist.org):

Plato showed long ago, in his dialogue Euthyphro, that we cannot depend upon the moral fiats of a deity. Plato asked if the commandments of a god were "good" simply because a god had commanded them or because the god recognized what was good and commanded the action accordingly. If something is good simply because a god has commanded it, anything could be considered good. There would be no way of predicting what in particular the god might desire next, and it would be entirely meaningless to assert that "God is good." Bashing babies with rocks would be just as likely to be "good" as would the principle "Love your enemies." (It would appear that the "goodness" of the god of the Old Testament is entirely of this sort.)

On the other hand, if a god's commandments are based on a knowledge of the inherent goodness of an act, we are faced with the realization that there is a standard of goodness independent of the god and we must admit that he cannot be the source of morality. In our quest for the good, we can bypass the god and go to his source!

You can find the full article here (http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/ethics.html). It's a pretty interesting read.

-Keiichi

Nick_Drake

4th May 2001, 04:19 PM

I am curious how a preference for nothingness provides a sense of purpose or quality to ones life...other than a way to justify immoral or abhorrent behavior.

I don't personally need to believe in god(s) to make me want to be a good person. I 'm a good person because I want to be. I don't need the fear of Hell or the aspiration of Heaven to make me behave appropriately. I don't murder, lie and steal because I don't want to. Just like my friends (atheist or otherwise) don't want to. My purpose is the same as yours. To live my life the best I can.

Or how nothingness is any more the probable reality than the God scenario?
My belief is; God is not necessary to explain the Universe.

is it because its the easier choice? Just my thoughts....
I personally don't think it is the easier choice. The world scares me sometimes and faith might be comforting.

DLL

4th May 2001, 04:33 PM

Keiichi,
I don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion that there is no God because it is logical.

While I do see the logic in that article's arguement, it is still only an opinion.

Here's my logical explanation of morals:

God created us in His image and in His likeness. "Morals" as we see them are nothing more than God's sense of right and wrong, which he imparted to us. God does not change. Therefore our morals will never contradict God, and God will never contradict them.

Do you beleive that we have morals because we are intelligent? Why do animals lack morals? Do you beleive morals evolved? Are they taught or are they instinct? Do you intinctively know the difference between right and wrong?

Heb:10:16: This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

To explain those who lack morals:

Ro:1:28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

omen

4th May 2001, 05:42 PM

i do not need a god or a religion to tell me what is right and what is wrong. a moral system or "conscience" is a thing most of us are taught from birth. so as long as you were raised in a law-abiding community, you will get a sense of what's wrong and right. you will feel guilt when you do something "bad." an athiest or agnostic will not go doing anything he pleases just because he believes there is no god or holds it highly improbable. afterall, there is always the fear of punishment. moreover, everyone does what they please at some point. i don't think anyone, whether fanatically religious or hardcore athiest, has never indulged in an inpulse they considered "wrong." we are all guilty of what some of you religious folk call "sin." i may think the existence of god or some other supernatural force is highly improbable, but i still have my moral system. i know when i do something bad because that's what my parents taught me. this is necessary in modern society. i should also mention my dad is an agnostic and my mom is not a very religious christian.

Sebu_NZ

4th May 2001, 06:35 PM

My belief is; God is not necessary to explain the Universe.

I agree with that totally.

The Whole meaning of life thing, What is the meaning of monkeys life? Reproduce eat sleep etc etc

Just because we have evolution above them doesn't mean we have a radically new purpose. With modern society and civilization we are disillusioned as to what are purpose is.

Buddy_Pickle

4th May 2001, 06:46 PM

Keetch: I was just throwing out ideas, based on a few you threw out...so nothing was meant to be aimed at you...I think you know that anyway.

But lets make this interesting. There are a few categories of people out there, I believe:

1. Those who fear death because of guilt placed on them by peers / family / religion, and them feeling they did not live up to these "standards" while on earth. (Therefore, fear of Gods judgment.)

2. Those who fear death because of the unknown. Is there a God? Is there not one? Are we just mutated pond weeds? A simple case of fearing the unknown.

3. Those who DON'T fear death because they lived up to the standards they committed to while on earth, (and in a Christian belief system), feel that anything that was lacking is sufficiently stamped out by the saving grace of Christ.

4. Those that DON'T fear death because the feel life is nothing but a temporary state of being, where our intelligences only tarry for a certain time, a random time, and then cease as quickly as they materialized. So whets the point in worrying about where we are going, just as long as they had a good time while they were here.

Now my guess is there are a few #1's, a whole BUNCH of #2's, a few #3's, and some 4's. (Personally, #4 is the most dreary and depressing of the bunch, but that might just be me.)

Now, what I wanted to say was this: The highly religious among us believe that their stance is made of "truth." Those among us who believe in no God, or don't care one way or the other, also believe their stance is made of "truth". It really is no different. In a way, not believing in Godly stuff is just as much a religion as the other side...maybe just with less work to do on Sundays...:)

My stance? Believe what and who you want. I don't care. Just do what you think is best, and don't block out other possibilities just cause they are not your own. At the end of all this, when you are nigh to death, it will be YOU, and only you. Its then that you will very acutely evaluate what you REALLY believe, or desire for that matter. I hope we all end up where we want to be. (Unless you believe in re-incarnation, and come back as a cat....unless of course you WANT to be a cat...) :)

Shag

4th May 2001, 07:11 PM

I'm a Buddhist, and here's why.

You don't have to believe anything, you just learn about your mind and the world by learning to pay closer attention.

Without some effort toward untangling our minds, we are just a collection of genetic and behavioral patterns. We think we make choices, but really we just react. This is a form of slavery and leads to much suffering.

Buddhism is more a method of inquiry than a religion, so there is no need to "save" anyone to your point of view.

By just paying attention to how your mind works, you become more and more free from self-deception, and discover that underneath all that crap is a compassionate energy just waiting to express itself.

Call it God if you want, or not, it doesn't matter, because it contains its own reward. A clearer understanding, a greater appreciation of beauty, and a kind of fearlessness.

Compassion is the ultimate value. Not the mushy, sentimental kind, but a clear-eyed understanding that we are all in the same boat, and that balance doesn't come easy.

Buddhist practice is great for anyone who wants to investigate themselves and the world, but doesn't want to buy a bunch of dogma wholesale. You don't have to believe in God, you don't even have to be a Buddhist. All you need to begin is curiosity.

RogueLeader

4th May 2001, 07:12 PM

DLL- your definition of morality is based on the idea that the morality is something is based on its creator's morals. But where did God's morals come from? Was he created?

And BP, how can you say that #4 is necessarily the most depressing? If anything a temporary life makes it even more valuable, knowing that you have to treasure it while it lasts. I think it would be impossible to live forever anyway, because without death there is nothing to compare life to- therefore there could be no life.

DLL

4th May 2001, 07:27 PM

RL-Where did God come from? I don't know. I am content that I don't know. I know that answer is probably very frustrating, but it's the honest truth.

I just realize that there are some things beyond my comprehension... that my mortal mind cannot grasp. Can you grasp eternity? Infinite space? Can you fathom that if you traveled through the universe in a straight line that you would never reach the end? There are many things that I have pondered in life. Some of them I've tackled with my intellect and triumphed. Some of them elude my understanding again and again. Where did God come from is one of them.

You may as well ask where did everything come from. The Big Bang theory explains how our current environment came about, but it does not explain where all this matter came from. Where did the universe come from. Has it always been? Will it always be?

Cap'n Beeb

4th May 2001, 07:33 PM

Good points made out across this whole thread, and nothing aggressive said, huzzah! :)

Anywho, /me is Wiccan. And the shit storm I get for that from some people is incredibly disgusting :mad:

Los Pescados

4th May 2001, 07:38 PM

CANADIAN HOCKEY

It's a fantastic religion. Involves having each and every weekend off (during hockey season -- saturdays are official holidays, and sundays are the 'get outside and play' days), much beer drinking, and then you reach a religious orgasm when the stanley cup is won.

:D

DLL

4th May 2001, 07:41 PM

Everyone gets very passionate about certain subjects, and the topic that tops that list is probably religion. Wars have been fought and people have died for their religions (however misguided their actions were).

Probably the second subject on the I-might-get-my-nose-bloodied-talking-about-this list is politics and/or government. Communism vs. Capitalism and so forth…

I've seen both of these subjects discussed on these boards without anger and with much sincerity and maturity.

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate that. These boards rule.

Los - That's simply disgusting.... lol /me shakes his head

GunGirl

4th May 2001, 07:47 PM

i'm an atheist as well, my mother was a very strict catholic, when she was only 10 she was sent to a nunnery where she was rapt and tortured by the nuns, i wonder why there are people like that :(

Los Pescados

4th May 2001, 07:51 PM

Seriously, though.. if I was religious, I would probably be Buddhist. I find that to be quite an intreguing religion, and actually parallels many of the personal beliefs I have, and ideas that I have worked out through deep, serious thought and research, even before I learned what Buddhism was about.

But for now, at my young age, I don't feel the need to try to appeal to a higher power. Perhaps one day I will find religion.

RogueLeader

4th May 2001, 07:52 PM

Actually DLL, you would reach the end if you traveled in a straight line. The universe is finite but unbounded- at the edge space and time are infinitly curved and you would actually end up going backwards in the opposite direction but you would have never turned. By going in a straight line you actually can end up going in a different direction. The human mind is quite capable of dealing with infinite. I can do math with infinite in my head quite easily, without even having to look up mathmatical laws relating to it. The only thing the human mind cannot truly grasp is the laws of quantam mechanics, and that is because on such a small scale the dimenions created by the curvature of strings is different than the 4 dimensions we are used to, so we cannot think in anything other than 4 dimensions. However, with a lot of mental training, you can learn to deal with the idea of more than three dimensional space even without understanding it.

LifesBane[4C]

4th May 2001, 08:48 PM

To Keiichi (BTW, I'm not attacking you, or trying to convert you, I'm just showing my POV based off a quote from your post):

---------------
I, for one, find the idea of nothingness to be far more pleasurable than the thought of an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent God sitting in judgement over me once I die, rating my life on a scale of good and evil, and damning me to an eternity of torture in hell if I don't measure up to His standards.

-Keiichi
-----------------

In my oppinion, this is how the Christian religion gets perceived SO wrong. Many people think that to be a Christian, you have to be all goody-two-shoes, bouncing up and down, spreading love and joy all over the world. Because if you don't, you are going to go to hell.

But, if people read more into the religion, that is ABSOLUTELY incorrect.

According to the Christian religion, to get into heaven, one has to believe that Jesus Christ, son of God, died on the cross to save us from our sins and eternal damnation. That's it.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, and who soever belives in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life". When you go to heaven, God will not sit there pointing at you, telling you everthing you did wrong. Why? He doesn't even "know". When Jesus died on the cross, he saved us from our sins.

Lets say, I go out and murder someone. Then, I feel truely remorseful for it, and realize what a terrible attrocity I just commited. Ask God for forgivness, and you have a clean slate. He won't even "remember" it happened, if you want to put it that way. Now, this doesn't mean you can go out and kill someone, ask for forgiveness, kill someone else, repeat. Because, if you really loved God, the creator, you would probably not have the mindset to do that. It's like the Law in the US. If you love your country, you don't go around breaking all of it's laws, right? But, no matter HOW harsh the sin, even nuking a nation, >it can be forgiven<.

The way many people see it is that everything we do counts towards or against us. But, really, that is not the case.

LifesBane[4C]

4th May 2001, 08:52 PM

Rouge Leader:
-----------
Actually DLL, you would reach the end if you traveled in a straight line. The universe is finite but unbounded- at the edge space and time are infinitly curved and you would actually end up going backwards in the opposite direction but you would have never turned.
-------------

Heavilly debatable topic. The farthest objects in all exsistance are Pulsars. These are believed to be at the edge of the universe. But, since we cannot get out there, we have no way of telling what happens when you get to the end. Is it like in the movie "The Truman Show" where he just hits a wall out in the ocean? Or, will we "wrap" around to the other side? No one knows. (or at least that's what I'm told, hehe)

GunGirl

4th May 2001, 08:57 PM

:):D god, i love astrophysics :D:)

TheShiningWizard

4th May 2001, 09:32 PM

Whoever it was that inquired about my change from Christianity to Muslim to Atheist:

I was brought up as a Christian, sent to Church, Sunday school, etc, so naturally it was pounded into my head that there is a "God," "Jesus," etc. This might wrinkle some noises, but I, like most of my friends, was practically "brainwashed" as a child, simply because I thought my parents were right about everything. You know how it is when you're VERY young.

When I was 12, my older brother converted to Islam and convinced me to do the same. I'm not going to get into detail, but at the time Islam seemed like a much more valid way to worship "God."

When I was 15, and actually started thinking for myself, I decided that nobody knows or will ever know (at least, while they're alive) what the heck's out there, as far as "Gods" go. I'm a blend of Agnostic and Atheist (Leaning towards Atheist... that may not make sense, but either you understand what I mean or you don't.) While I won't COMPLETELY rule out the existence of a "Higher Power," I don't think that the monotheistic religions know a damn thing about it.

BP: I don't agree with your number 4 being the most depressing. What's so bad about someone just wanting to live their life, not knowing (and therefore not caring) what will happen to them when they die? Maybe I'll re-incarnate, maybe I'll go to an afterlife of sorts, maybe I'll just completely cease to exist. I have no way of knowing until I'm dead, so I'm not going to waste my life, my "guaranteed existence," thinking/caring about it.

I have no problem with other people being religious, as long as they're not bigoted fundamentalists who have nothing better to do than run around trying to convert everyone.
(Any girl I go out with HAS to be Agnostic or Atheist. I've gone out with religious girls, and I always end up getting sick of their attempts to convert/influence me, and break up with them. Or, of course, their parents simply hate me. After all, <SARCASM>Atheists are evil.</SARCASM>)

Another thing. Most of the "religious" people I know aren't truly religious; they're simply "Monotheistic," meaning they believe in 1 "God." Simple as that. They'll say they're Christian/Jewish/Islamic etc, but they do NOTHING religious aside from simply believe in "God." If we took a poll of everyone in the country, and they all answered honestly, how many people do you think would be Monotheistic, but not religious? Something to think about, perhaps.

Anyway, that's pretty much all I have to say, or will ever have to say, about religion.

I'm 16 years old, if anyone's wondering.

TheShiningWizard

4th May 2001, 09:48 PM

The "Atheists are evil" remark was sarcasm, in case I didn't make it obvious enough.

OpFor

4th May 2001, 09:54 PM

hmmm, this topic ain't gunna end well [christians, most I've met abused/threatend/vandalized me and my property, for what I believed]

wiccan.

Don't start with "your a goth!you worship saintan!you kill people for sacrafices!" because none of it is remotly true, most of us are good people, and guess what, more than likely, your neighbor, or the guy down the block is one, you just don't know because we would like to live without being shunded, having some preist wave a cross over us in public, and being abused/threatend/etc. So don't start because I believe in something you don't. Like I said, we are normal people, we love nature, and life, and we are not evil.
Most people assume that wicca is "evil" it's not.
So shut your ****** mouth, or I might "put a spell on you" phhhh, ya right, it comes back three fold.

OpFor

4th May 2001, 09:59 PM

I guessing someone wil IP ban me now because I'm "evil".

and envy, I know exactly how you feel.

Cap'n Beeb

4th May 2001, 10:08 PM

Couldnt of said it better myself OpFor, I too have been vandelized from such people. People fear what they dont understand, and sometimes, they hate what they dont understand, sad really.

Sebu_NZ

4th May 2001, 10:16 PM

I'm #4

In no way am I depressed, 95% I'm happy enjoying life getting along with fellow humans, living my life by MY morals (which indeed are similar to Christians:) )

I have no physically hurt anyone, and Don't see the need, why because it pointless, I could never in any situation end the life of another human-being. (Oh BTW im not whipped either :) )

(NB: The following does not say i cant fire up and swear in large amounts when angry :D )

TheShiningWizard

4th May 2001, 10:21 PM

Opfor: I'm not Wiccan, but I know how it feels to have people yelling that "You're evil!" **** at you. Depending on what I feel like wearing, I look like something from either The Matrix, KoRn, or Marilyn Manson. I don't get it much at school, since my friends can see past that (My school's 99% Abercrombie-preppy, but the kids are really nice), but when I'm walking around my neighborhood (15 miles from my school) I've been yelled at, shoved around, and occasionally, even jumped. It probably wouldn't be quite as bad if I wasn't half-black (my neighborhood's a big time ghetto-wannabe "Hey look at how thuggish I am!" place with scrubby black kids running around annoying the **** out of everyone who isn't like them. Naturally they'll pick on a black kid who "acts white." Excuse me for sounding a tad bitter.)

I won't comment more on this, because I've vented about it before. Don't let me get you off topic, folks :-)

I don't think you'll be banned or anything. The mods and regulars here are pretty open-minded most of the time. Nobody's really been flamed so far.

Mad_Dog

4th May 2001, 10:34 PM

no one will ban you opfor, but please don't assume this topic won't end well. a lot of the posts in here are written by christians, and no one has insulted or flamed anyone else yet.

so please don't tell us to "shut our f*cking mouth" when we haven't said anything yet. don't worry man, you're respected here.:) and you if cast a spell on me, goddam it, i'll exorcise you ;).

LifesBane[4C]

4th May 2001, 11:21 PM

"christians, most I've met abused/threatend/vandalized me and my property, for what I believed"

Two things to clear up:

1) Most Christians who act like that are really just people who claim they are Christians and give the true Christians a bad name

2) Just in case some were confused, Catholocism and Christianity are often thought to be the same. Fundamentally, there are many similarities, but Catholocism relies more heavily on the belief of Mary, and the things like Confessions, which in my oppinion are added extras which the Bible does not enforce. I know many people who I've talked to who have said "Christian, Cathloic, same thing right?"

BTW: I think a big accident just happened outside, heh. I'm sitting here typing this (live next to highway) and I hear this big "SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH" but it sounded like 3 different screeches :) Hope the people are okay :)

LifesBane[4C]

4th May 2001, 11:26 PM

Re-reading over my post, just making sure people notice I said "MOST people"...there are still some that are Christians that will do things like that, but they are wrong for doing that. Even though someone may believe something completely contradictory to you doesn't mean you should hurt/main/kill them. Think about it...Republicans and Democrats; they hold contradictory oppinions. Although there is a lot of mudslinging between the two, they don't go around in total physical war :P

And if anyone was wondering, I'm 15.

Iceman

5th May 2001, 12:19 AM

Lets have a big Astrophysic's thread :) i love that stuff :)
And someone said something about the meening of life? well i belive that the meening of live is to find the meening of live, we just keep going around and around in circles :)
Just my 2 cents.

Iceman.

OICW

5th May 2001, 12:37 AM

My reply to RL is that we cannot truely understand everything on earth.

Science might explain a lot now but it cannot explain everything. We now scoff at the people several hundred years ago who thought the earth was flat, but in 500 years people will laugh at us saying "They believed in photons, atoms and molecules!"

Where did God come from? I believe that He has always been here with us. I also believe that He created the universe, and that I believe He did it by evolution.

Some people will point out that Genesis says something totally different, but scholars are now thinking that the Book of Genesis is more of a poem, a metaphor of the beginning of the universe.

The most important thing is your belief in God and Jesus, not whether your view on how the universe was created is right or not.

Science may try and explain everything but the truth is, it can't. Nothing will ever be able to explain everything.

That's life. All we can do is live our lives and be happy with what we have accomplished in them.

NotBillMurray

5th May 2001, 01:15 AM

Well behaved thread!

OK, here goes. I was raised in a Laissez Faire religious situation. Let me figure it out myself. My thinking is that I currently don't believe that there are any gods/a god. I say currently because I can't disprove it, meaning no evidence that he/they couldn't exist. I can disprove just about anything contained in religious text, but that doesn't really prove anything about any theological existence, just the fallibility of human beings. However, because I find fault in the logic and beliefs of the religions I've looked into, and the steady advancement of science in proving things thought unprovable, I find the possibility of a higher power to a number approaching zero. So close in fact to assume it is zero. At this point, I give the same credibility to leprechauns and faeries as I do to any form of god.

That said, I seem to always receive the "what's the point then" question. This has many variations, the most popular of which is "If there is no grand plan or reason for us being here, why go on?". What I am amazed at is that they can't see the reason to go on all around us. Look at what out species has managed to do! We've created machines to modify our world! We've travelled off of the planet we originated from! We are on the brink of being able to direct our own genetic evolution! Everything I do is indirectly helping my species improve itself and continue to evolve. Because I spend money on devices like computers, I help fund the next level of technology that will enable us to reach new plateaus previously unavailable to us. Who knows, maybe we'll pass along our achievements to the machines we create and let them take over where we leave off. I say be proud of you species and all that it has been able to do.

On mortality -
I honestly am propelled forward by a desire to see what we can accomplish next. As we have approached the level of atomic sized machines, we may soon be able to cross into the quantum layer of our world and peel back the curtain hiding the mechanics of our universe. And consider what may lay beyond that. I fear pain and dying more than I fear death. When my life winks out, theres no real possibility of regret or reflection. But that is a real possibility if I were to be injured but not killed. So that is the reason I don't decide to rush from my spawnpoint guns blazing.

On morality -
Is it really that different to receive your morals from your parents and society than from a book or a pastor? I understand the sociological impact of stealing and murder, and choose not to do them because it doesn't jibe with how I wish to live my life. I believe I would kill to protect those that I love from danger, but I've luckily never been in a situation where that choice was necessary.

And in closing...because of the method of analysis and the impossibility of disproving the existence of a god/gods to a scientific fact, I don't have any need or desire to challenge anothers beliefs. The possibility always exists that they may be right. What I do have a problem with is being held to the moral standards of someone whose specific religious beliefs forbid actions that our global society has not deemed illegal or wrong.

I was initially worried about this thread, but I'm glad it's been kept civil and I've enjoyed all of our differing opinions stated so clearly. Thanks, and lets keep this genial.

RogueLeader

5th May 2001, 08:30 AM

LifesBane, we can tell what is at the edge of the universe. We can use mathmatics to learn all sorts of laws about the universe for anything larger than an atom. So far the math has yet to be wrong. And btw, pulsars arn't necessarily the edge of the universe, they can be anywhere.

chunky

5th May 2001, 10:20 AM

I am not religious although i'm not against it. i'm one of the "i'd like some proof" people, and if god (in whatever form) went to all that trouble for us, wouldn't he give us a little proof that he's there?
Both religous and non-religios people run into the same problem: how was the universe created (non religious) or how was god created?
I loosely believe the following: you are born, you live your life as you want and you die, everything of you stops and you become a soft smelly rock for a while.
Human life will be about for an infinitely small amount of time and will disappear and time shall move on unchanged. People should live good lives for themselves and others around them, but ultimately, no matter what actions you can possibly take, 100 billion years from now it will have no consequence. So it doesn't matter if you enjoy yourself or commit yourself to a life of work or pain or unhappiness. Might as well enjoy yourself.
Without life to observe, how can anything exist? How can nothing exist?

BTW, some scientists believe that the universe was originally energy, and following E=MC^2, some of it was converted to matter and anti-matter, which was somehow seperated.

Buddy_Pickle

5th May 2001, 10:40 AM

When I said #4 was the most depressing, I did not say it was for everyone, I said it was for me. There is more to me than this 75 year stint, or however long I get to live here. All I am saying is, to state that a person is sure there is no afterlife to speak of, is no different than a person who is sure there IS an afterlife. You both claim a truth that are in conflict, yet you each claim them as truth.

Claiming that religion is false in all its forms, (meaning there is no truth to its various tenents of faith), is in itself, a show of your own faith. A faith that nothing more than random flesh and lucky genetics over millions of years are responsible for your existence. It is JUST as valid a belief system as any Christian, Buhdist, Satinist, or Jew out there.

Reminds me of a lesson I teach to the 17 year old sunday school class on Sundays. "Does Japan Exist." I may explain that later in this thread, its pretty interesting.

Nanodragon

5th May 2001, 12:26 PM

No matter what we think, do or say, we all are equal.
This is a fact, and nobody can prove me the opposite.
Dragonfly

TheShiningWizard

5th May 2001, 02:42 PM

BP: If you were responding mostly to me, then please re-read my post, and focus harder on what I was saying.

Buddy_Pickle

5th May 2001, 03:16 PM

Not at all...Just speaking generally.

omen

5th May 2001, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by OICW
My reply to RL is that we cannot truely understand everything on earth.

Science might explain a lot now but it cannot explain everything. We now scoff at the people several hundred years ago who thought the earth was flat, but in 500 years people will laugh at us saying "They believed in photons, atoms and molecules!"

scientific theories are not proven over night. just because scientists were wrong hundreds of years ago, does not mean they are wrong now. it takes time to gather evidence to prove a hypothesis. so, you're telling me that just because some ancient theories were proven false, you will completely disregard science? obviously science has some "truth" in it because we have things now that we didn't have then. (space exploration, math, computers, etc.)

TheShiningWizard

5th May 2001, 07:21 PM

BP: Alrighty :cool:

RogueLeader

5th May 2001, 07:46 PM

Actually OICW, we are probably within a decade or two of finally discovering a unified field theory. With the unified field theory, if we were to know every variable in the universe, we could know everything. The only limitation science has and ever will have is discovering thsoe variables that are subatomic, because of the uncertainty principal. Everything else is scientifically attainable.

Sebu_NZ

5th May 2001, 07:56 PM

I can see your point there BP (and as a result I have called off Spetsnaz)

Omen, excaltly what I was thinking, the "scientists" back then did little research, If they did an experiment to prove or disprove their theory that the world was flat, im sure it wouldn't be so widely accepted as the truth (but of course with the technology (ships etc) it wasn't possible)

RogueLeader

5th May 2001, 09:00 PM

Another interesting fact...it was because of religion that people thought the earth was flat. It says it is in the Bible. Before medieval civilization it was accepted that the earth was round. The Greeks used their expertise in geometry to estimate the diameter of the earth to within a 1000 miles of what it really is, by using only two sticks. That isn't half bad for a people that lived 4000 years ago.

OICW

5th May 2001, 09:48 PM

I meant that theories are changing and that our current theories may be wrong (not all of them) in a few hundred years.

Science IMO (not all branches) tries to explain everything when the truth is we will never be able to.

Sebu_NZ

5th May 2001, 11:28 PM

Gr33k5 \/\/3r3 1337 g30/\/\37157!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah the Greeks rocked!

I put all my faith in science damnit!

Are you threatening me OICW? :D

DEFkon

6th May 2001, 03:32 AM

non-practicing buddist.

I was originaly raised as a christian, but being the type that valued science, and logic i found it difficult to maintain faith and eventually converted to Zen Buddism, because it didn't controdict any science/logic that i know of.

Personally while although i don't belive in a "God" or similar entity, i do believe that the universe or whatever term you'd prefer to describe "the whole picture" does have a nature( set of basic and general "rules" which cause similar paterns or behaviours in multiple systems) . I find it interesting to no end the simiarities between the atom, and the solar system, cells, societies, ect ect.

time for sleep

RogueLeader

6th May 2001, 08:35 AM

And since you use atoms as an example, OICW, I should also point out that the Greeks and Romans had similar ideas of the atom. In fact the Roman belief of the atom was, considering the time, remarkably close to reality. They believed that every person was made up of their own kind of atoms, and that you see people because that person's atoms go to your eye. That is very similar to how we see, except we know that rather than a unique particle for every person we see with light particle/waves, and that we are made of the same types of atoms just arranged differently. The theories you refer to as failing were not scientifically attained, so I don't see what they prove.