Hand-to-Hand: The human way

[The-Doc]

Before you lot read the rest of this post please go here (http://games.sohu.com/fightgame/fight3.swf)



Finished???

Good.

Now, I'd like to see the ability to get into hand-to-hand without having to use a knife, or other weapon.
I think it would be really cool if you could get into a fisticuff with the enemy in the middle of a battle.

I know that the Rangers, SEALs, SAS, SBS, Spetznaz, and the Isreali Druze commando's are all taugt advanced hand to hand during basic training, so I was wondering if the inclusion of this would be possible in INF.

If it was possible, would it be added, and what moves would we be able to make???

[ElectricSheep]

One of the primary reasons Netplay didn't make into Oni (man, what a dissapointment that was) was because the nature of the combat system meant that anything short of an ultra-fast lan made syncing impossible. The problem is that advanced hand-to-hand would be even more twitch-intensive than just pure gunplay. By the time you saw an opponents attack *start*, he would have already hit you and taken you down.

[Dr.Dase]

Lag would make this impossible, plus that even though you could engage an enemy in HtH, you'd probably be better off gunning him down, rather than trying to beat his ass....

But i still resent the currect HtH system, this is ridiculous, and with lag it's practically impossible to hit a moving target.

[RogueLeader]

I think this isn't needed, at least not now, with the knife and all. Adding yet another melee fighting option might add too much to the complexity of the game, and you usually won't need to use hand to hand in real combat.

[DarkBls]

Isreali Druze commando's

And GIGN have the same hand to hand combat style than them.

I have the luck to have the same teacher than GIGN member. This guy was an Israelien commando leader.

About your Flash movie, I like it but Kung-Fu is definitly not a modern military hand to hand combat style.

Using it in the heat of a firearm is a stupid behavior !
I know none who can stop any bullet type with his body :rolleyes:

The only way to use your fighting skill is maybe for sentry removal (An armed guy taken by surprise) or an unarmed guy.

[JaFO]

Melee - combat is not completely impossible with the Unreal-engine (just look at Rune ...)
but it requires a 3rd-person view (and a fast internetconnection) to work effectively.

Even in Rune you only have a very limited amount of moves compared to real-life, and the bot-AI would need to be pretty good too.

HtH would be worse, because of the more precise movements/hitdetection needed ...

All in all it looks like a lot of work for something that's only used in an emergency in Infiltration.

[Pleuresaap]

how about just a neck break move then? it isn't really needed but it would be cool. a knife kill still makes noise when the enemy screams. sometimes a neckbreak move could be handy. it would have to be completely silent and can only be performed from behind.

[DarkBls]

knife kill still makes noise when the enemy screams.

You can kill someone with a knife without the drawback of its scream ;)

[The_Fur]

When slitting a throat you still get the gurgle, you can cover the mouth but that won't stop it as the gurgle comes from the severed windpipe and thus the neckwound.

[DarkBls]

Did I mentioned slitting a throat ? ;)

[The_Fur]

unless youwant to stab them in the back of the head which would take concidearbel strength to get trough the thick back skull as well of the danger of the knife delecting and the scream of ths soldier alarming everybody in a 5 mile radius.

[DarkBls]

Yes I'm teacher of a military hand 2 hand style, but I'm not an expert. I use to teach to beginner and keep learning myself.

I'm (till now) a civilian. So when I ask the GIGN (http://www.gign-fr.com/)teacher (http://www.krav-maga.net/images/IMRICH2.jpg) to teach me how to do sentry removal with a knife without any scream, he said I didn't have to know for now. :(

But believe me those technic exist !

The_Fur your message is like an expert in military hand 2 hand combat would post. Are you ? I don't think.

When I don't know a something I say I don't know. On this one I jsut know the technic exists.

When you don't know something just admit it.

If you want to know more about the GIGN teacher:

Kommando Magazine 1996 (http://www.krav-maga.net/images/komandos.jpg)

[The_Fur]

No, i'm not... it's just that i couldn't think of any other way of the top of my head.
Could you elaborate on how it would be done? :)

[DarkBls]

I bet it would done in one movement by striking te tip of the blade directly to the brain by entering by an under hear area.

Or in 2 movements, by first know down the sentry by striking him with the pommel of your knife and them cutting.

But it is just some suppositions !

[The_Fur]

cover mouth, stab in spleen or liver, should finish him off in a short time (Liver would mean death in about half a minute due to blood polution if i remember correct.

Hmm this is getting scary...

*runs off screamig with hands above his head*
"EEEEEEEEEEEEEKK"

:D

[The-Doc]

A quick way I know of killing someone without having a lot of blood pool out of a cut in their throat/body is to stab them in the back of the neck, severing the spinal column.

This INSTANTLY kills someone (if your good at it, that is) and you wont have the scream, gurgle, or blood on the floor that is the normal methods of alert you might find in combat.

However, if you could take out someone (ie a sniper) without having to use a weapon, then a quick snap of the neck would be best...

Even though REAL hand to hand is impossible using the UT engine, it would be cool to see it implemented...

[Pleuresaap]

you can also knife someone without sound by covering his mouth, pulling his head up as hard as possible and cutting his throat very deep and hard. this recuires a lot of strength though. i'm still all for a neckbreak move

[The_Fur]

Well, no first hand experience here, but somebody once explained that in order to break a neck you'd have to start working out 2 years agoi and stop in about 2 decades ofconstant training, then MAYBE you'd be able to snap a neck with your hands.

The military way to snap necks uses gravity to assist, the attacker grabs the victims head and holds it in a special way, then he knocks the victim over trough his knees and falls back. OR he takes the victims head and holds him by his neck while pulling him over his back and that way snapping his neck.

[DarkBls]

There are a lot of way to kill someone with your bare hand... I know some..

[OICW]

Well Shakken has said that Inf is both a normal military and special forces mod or more correctly a simulator IMO, so the team would have to choose between basic and advanced hand-to hand techniques.

Anyway, normal infantry are taught the basics of hand-to hand combat, while special forces do a lot more training.

Special forces are taught some pretty rough stuff (they cover a bit of this in normal infantry training) such as gourging out eyes, stomping of people's heads when they are on the ground, crushing windpipes etc.

Hand-to hand would be all right, but it would be too hard to properly implement it in Inf I think.

[Kuroshio Apocal]

Originally posted by OICW
Special forces are taught some pretty rough stuff (they cover a bit of this in normal infantry training) such as gourging out eyes, stomping of people's heads when they are on the ground, crushing windpipes etc.


This is what experts call "Ghetto Fighting Style". :D

[-Lost-]

no, that's the "best fighting style" if all else fails, find a hole in their head and stick a finger in it. i believe the military is taught to break necks by putting the "bad guy" in a headlock from behind and pulling him back and down, but i don't really remember. either way, it's not a very silent kill, since he would probably be kicking and thrashing the whole way down...

[OICW]

Exactly what do you mean "Ghetto fighting"? Sorry, but I'm not from the US.

Do you mean street survial, when you are defneding yourself from a mugger/rapist? If you did, then that isn't a style taught by martial artists, even "street survival" instructos.

Sure, they teach some dirty technqiues (like a kick in the nuts etc) but they don't teach you to gouge out eyes.

If in a street fight you broke a guy's arm, he'd get ouyt of there quick and would think twice before conituning fighting.

In a war, a soldier with a broken arm can still fight (though impaired), or call for help.

They don't teach this stuff in many martial art schools because there would be sevre psychological affects if you maimed a man, when you didn't have to if you could just knee him in the groin and run.

[{GD}Ghost]

Everybody was Kung-Fu fighting......da da da da da da da da da....their hands moved fast as lighting....

[Pleuresaap]

milatary and how strange it may sound especially special forces don't use karate or kung fu or anything, just rough streetfighting with gouging eyes and stuff. for example the brittish SAS (Special Air Service) are thaught streetfighting or as they call it: jap slapping because if they're operating under cover in nothern ireland and they get in a fight and do some flying bruce lee kicks and stuff, the PIRA would say: "he, he knew what he's doing, he must have been an SAS guy" and then they detonate the whole area. But if the SAS guy can make it look as just another street fight no one will suspect anything. And there's the fact that kung fu takes ages to master. however, SF troopers are thaught some special moves for silently removing sentry's involving knives and/or bare hands.

[DarkBls]

milatary and how strange it may sound especially special forces don't use karate or kung fu or anything, just rough streetfighting with gouging eyes and stuff. for example the brittish SAS (Special Air Service) are thaught streetfighting or as they call it: jap slapping because if they're operating under cover in nothern ireland and they get in a fight and do some flying bruce lee kicks and stuff, the PIRA would say: "he, he knew what he's doing, he must have been an SAS guy" and then they detonate the whole area. But if the SAS guy can make it look as just another street fight no one will suspect anything. And there's the fact that kung fu takes ages to master. however, SF troopers are thaught some special moves for silently removing sentry's involving knives and/or bare hands.

I agree 90%.
THe martial art I learn/teach from the GIGN teacher is what I would call a structured street fighting. We have no rules. Of course it is obvious to strike the eyes and groin. I cannot think to fight without that now !

: "he, he knew what he's doing, he must have been an SAS guy" and then they detonate the whole area.
ANy fighting style your use, a trained guy is easier to spot than an untrainde guy...


And there's the fact that kung fu takes ages to master.
Exactly. Commando don't have 100% of their time to learn any bare hand comabt style!

[Pleuresaap]

darkBls:
quote:
ANy fighting style your use, a trained guy is easier to spot than an untrainde guy...


i agree, although the SAS jap slapping technique is specially developed to make it look as any streetfight (a regular occurance in nothern ireland) if you watch carefully you'll see it is a trained guy. however i do think in like 9 out of 10 times they (the PIRA) won't notice because they aren't expecting it. i think you'd have to agree streetfighting is less obvious than kung fu :)

[Pleuresaap]

btw, how do you quote with those nice lines around it?

[The_Fur]

[*quote] [*/quote] without the *

[Silver_Ibex]

Maybe something like the punches and kicks from AHL4 would work but you wouldn’t want to get to detailed just keep it simple and straight forward,
It has already been done sort of for regular UT, so it is possible to with this engine

http://www.planetunreal.com/modsquad/downloads/mutators/kakutou.zip

But instead of being stunned when hit have the characters view be jerked away from hit location, the Infiltration guys already move slow enough, freezing from being stunned would just suck

[Kuroshio Apocal]

OICW, I was refering to the fighting style of American slum areas. It's designed mostly to do serious damage to an opponent, usually while he or she is on the ground. Stomping/kicking teeth, testicles, ribs, knees, ankles, wrists, and fingers are all common. And yes, techniques such as eye gouges, spitting into an opponent's eye, and kicks to the testicles are all encouraged and taught by many self-defense instructors in the US.