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DividedSky
11th Sep 2000, 12:10 PM
Recently I've gotten frustrated with UT. For a loooong time, every since I started playing, in fact, I was consistently improving. I'd take on a new skill, incorporate it into my repertoire, and become a better player. Recently, though, I've hit a big plateau. I'm not getting better anymore. It's a bit unsettling because I always want to improve. I've been playing since January and I'm starting to wonder if I've peaked. It's also frustrating because I'm miles and miles behind the really good players. It'd be nice to be able to improve to their level, but I'm starting to wonder if I've maxed out my UT ability.

Are you guys still improving? ... I'd be curious to know, especially you *really* good players. Because I want to get as good as you guys :)

|H|Alarion
11th Sep 2000, 12:17 PM
Sky, I feel too that I am on a plateau... I *know* I am slowly getting better, but I am not where I think I should be. I have been playing since the tail end of march, and yes, I am DEFINATELY better than when I first started.

Just keep playing man.. maybe you need to step up the competition (erm.. well, you allready play with some of the better guys... hmm)

I keep trying to get |C| to recognize me *lol* but that's a long way from happening :D

Just keep it up man, I have played against ya before, and you are pretty damn good =)

Stosh
11th Sep 2000, 12:24 PM
I know I've improved tremendously since I started. Lately though, it seems like I still have a tough time against the better players, expecially lpb's.

It just seems like I have not improved in the last few weeks. I'm trying a few things. One is to play with weapon hidden. I think it's improving my aiming, but too early to tell yet.

Since I joined the pufladder 1on1 DM, I have yet to win a match. That is pretty disheartening. Playing 1on1 though, I think has helped me quite abit.

Just keep trying....

GunnerX
11th Sep 2000, 12:36 PM
BAH!!! I've been on the plateau but, I get to the edge and slip off. Then, I have to climb it up again. Can't seem to find that other hill on top of the plateau! Grrr!

DividedSky
11th Sep 2000, 12:58 PM
Alarion: Thanks for the praise, you're a pretty damn good UT'er yourself :)

I suppose the bottom line is that I'm still having a lot of fun playing, whether or not I can see noticeable week-to-week improvement.

Troll|PuF
11th Sep 2000, 01:04 PM
Everyone hits plateaus, gets frustrated, etc. For me, that's the best time to learn. Because you're in a frame of mind where you WANT to improve. When you get like that, go force yourself to 1vs1 anyone who will hold still long enough.

And the better skill level of the people you toss yourself in the midst of, the more you learn and the more you have no choice but to meet head on. :)

[ACE]Revenant
11th Sep 2000, 01:28 PM
I haven't hit my plateau yet.....(Is my skill that bad?).....I keep improving.......

But I did find something about my skill.......it improved when my opponents skill improved.......practicing against great players gives great skill......


You can also improve by playing more hours against improved godlike bots....... (has anyone ever beaten a godlike bot with max skill adjust,accuracy,alertness,etc. at instagib? (I (finnaly) did!)

Well,have fun plateau climbing.......

-Revenant

-BHS-Snowdog
11th Sep 2000, 01:29 PM
Sometimes, the hardest thing is to identify specific areas that you feel you need to improve upon. It's not necessarily intuitive what one's shortcomings might be if you're receiving a general smack-down on a given night. Sometimes getting constructive criticism from your buddies can help alot, as well as watching demos of your performance and being critical of it. In-game play is far more intuitive after you've been playing for a while, and sometimes the mold needs to be broken to move the next 'level'.
A perfect example was my use of dodging. Until recently, it never happened, ever. Jumping, yes, dodging, no. When a clan-mate pointed this out to me, I made it a point to focus on it, and I've gotten a bit better at it. Nowhere near what some players do, but still, and improvement. I'm to the point now that I want to disable my jump key and play for a week or so without it, forcing myself to rely on the dodge. But until this was pointed out, I never really thought of incorporating it.

Weapon dependency is another problem that I have, in that I generally rely on only a few weapons in a game (unless I'm forced to diversify.) Some may disagree, but I think it's more important to be generally competant with all weapons, than to be a master of one or a few. In light of this, I try to spend some time weekly on the various weapon arenas, in an effort to become more comfortable with all of them.

As has been mentioned already, playing (or better yet, speccing) some of the really masterful players can help lots, if you concentrate on the nuances of their games (selecting the correct weapon for a given situation, for example.)

When you get to the point where you can't figure out what else there is to improve upon, you will then be assured of hitting your plateau, whether you truly have or not.

Tetris L
11th Sep 2000, 02:29 PM
After 1/2 year of UT I reached that pateau too. Just continue to play as I did before didn't improve my skills any more. Then I did quite exactly what Snowdog said (I still do!) and this way I keep improving slowly. Very slowly indeed, but there is still a little progress. I can now master moves that I couldn't do 3 month ago. Especially with dodging, hammerjumps and xloc.

As Snowdog said:
- Watch demos of top players or spectate them.
- Watch demos of yourself and identify your weak points
- Have buddies spectate you and tell you your mistakes
- Force yourself to use weapons that you normally don't use. (You hate the bio gun? Fine, play some Gauntlet or Caves and use it exlusively!)
- Try to dodge.

I might add:
- Force yourself to play maps that you normally don't play. Ask yourself why you don't play them and question your reasons. (You hate LavaGiant cos it's so wide-open? Fine, play it for a week!)
- As a CTF player: Force yourself to play positions that you normally don't play. (You normally play defense. Fine, attack and go for the flag for a week.)
- As a CTF player: Force yourself to play DM sometimes. It may be boring, but it hones your dogfight skills.
- As a CTF player: Try to use the TL as much as possible for moving around. Try telefraggin.
- Try to use hammerjumps.

lunchblaze
11th Sep 2000, 02:42 PM
well, ive been playing guitar and violin for 25 years, and one thing i have found in that time is that once the initial straight upward curve starts to level out, each really bad down cycle is a signal of an upcomming improvement in your abilities (kind of along the lines of what troll said).

having only been playing UT (and fps's in gerenal for that matter)for about 2 months, i'm still on a fairly upward path. although lately, i've been hitting some downcycles and while i initially get frustrated, i eventually settle down and remember whats coming in the days ahead. sure enough, i'm better with the xloc now, and only kill myself 80% of the time with the rocket launcher as opposed to my customary 100% suicide rate when i first started playing.

i think the key is to remember the larger picture of your entire progress path and don't get bogged down and negative while your in the downcycle, just look forward to the improvements that are coming.

of course, all the tips on spec'ing and focused practicing are essential as well.


out.

:)
11th Sep 2000, 02:59 PM
well,

you can only be so good depending on your comp 20fps is worse then haveing a 400 ping you want to have over 50 fps if you can get it so turn stuff off until you get it that will help alot

and remember in ctf your only as good as your team


the best thing you can do to impove your game play is to watch other players closely all players have habits find them and exploit them :)

hobart_paving
11th Sep 2000, 03:57 PM
i think sometimes you don't really notice your improvements. like staring at yourself in the mirror everyday, you don't notice that you've gain 10 pounds till one day it just hits you. :)

the worst is when you have a bad game(and we all have them) and you feel that you've regressed skill-wise. :(

personally i know exactly what i have to work on to get better. i've gotten to the point where i can play with dodge enabled without killing myself too often, but i still can't dodge to save my life. i can't use the shock rifle very well and my accuracy in general leaves a lot to be desired(that's why i love rockets so much :D). i can play decent ctf now and then, but my dm game is amazingly attrocious.

we all improve with time whether we see it or not. i don't remember when i first saw you on a server, sky, but i do know that the last few times i've played you you were much improved from before, if that means anything. :)

DragonAsh
11th Sep 2000, 04:25 PM
Welp, I have definately improved after joining |C|

But I will really test out my skill in my upcomming LAN match. Im a CTF'er, not a DM'er, so this will prove interesting. I've been practicing against godlike bots. SO lets see the results ;p

Arkive
11th Sep 2000, 04:52 PM
Man...does this post ever hit home. I know *exactly* how you're feeling Sky. It's like, you know how to aim, you know how to use the weapons and all of their secondary functions and which situations warrant which ones, you know how to do every move in the book, but still, you keep coming up short against certain players (btw...everytime I said "you", I didn't mean you specifically Sky...I just mean players in general, ya know? :) ). I think we all get to a certain point skill-wise, and the rest is just tuning in our instinct, patience, knowing the map, anticipation, and most importantly...awareness. When I say awareness, I mean knowing where your attacker/FC is, what weapon their wielding, the most amount of health/armor they could have based off how much damage you've seen them take, and their general tactics and fighting style (if you've played them before). After awareness, it's all about anticipation...guessing what they're gonna do next and reacting before they do, while at the same time, leaving yourself with the least amount of exposure and maximizing your chances for success. For example, don't back yourself into a corner just to get the ideal angle for a combo if he has a chance of nailing you with one himself or a barrel full of rockets. Get yourself into a position where you have a good chance of getting him, while at the same time minimizing his chances of killing you. Like always, the situation will warrant how agressive/pensive you should be with your efforts. A lot of this is learned as you play a map over and over...and at a much faster rate with more experienced players (you'll learn a LOT of things *not* to do on certain maps after playing good opponents...not doing them *again* brings instinct and awareness back into the picture).

After playing UT for a few months now, I'm realizing how much of this game is mental, and how little is really physical and reflexes. Sure, nailing your opponent with a sniper rifle from 200 yards with no zoom on a regular basis takes tremendous physical skill and practice, but being able to avoid an attack, or prevent yourself from being killed long enough to take the other guy out is just as important.

Jeff

Watchdog
11th Sep 2000, 05:14 PM
I thought this too, but I'm finding that players that used to be pretty tough aren't anymore. It's justa perspective thing, at the beginning sure you progess with leaps and bounds, but now that you're getting competent, you don't notice teh little things that are improving.

-[BHS]-Firewall
11th Sep 2000, 05:38 PM
There is always room for improvement. More than likely, you only use a couple of weapons. So add some variety to your weapon choices. Any weapon is powerful in the right hands. You can also pick up a different mod to play on. For me it was 1on1 and I'm still improving in that department. Basically, all you have to do is add a different twist to spice UT up again. Currently in my opinion, I'm in a UT slump. But I've always eventually gotten out of it and seemed to improve immensely.

~Cobra~
11th Sep 2000, 05:43 PM
i always say this when ppl ask me how to get better... and that is... don't worry about it.... if all you're concerned about it is being 'the best' then the fun dies out... cause you're just gonna get even more frustrated... i know it..

i joined the 1on1 ogl open ladder w/o have ANY 1on1 experience... and this was when i was on 56k... i figured it would help out my ctf game... well i'm currently 3-13(or some crazy #, i forget)... if i felt i needed to be the best i woulda dropped outta the ladder from embarrassment(sp?) a LONG time ago... but right when i was 2-6 i realized 1on1 was way too fun and those were the only 1on1 games i could get... i still lost but i won one :D... but i also had fun... and i got better in the process...

there's nothing wrong with being competitive and striving to be the very best.. heck, i fall into that mode at times... but what happens when you fall short? what happens when you're not 'improving' anymore? does the fun stop then? only some people can get to the top but no one can take away your enjoyment of the game.. and some are eager to lose the fun tryin to get up there... hope this helps...

Inferno.org
11th Sep 2000, 05:48 PM
I am always getting better. If it is your aim that you are messin with i suggest playing some Instagib. I have only played that since i started UT and my aim is real good. I can't even play IG anymore without being called a cheater. My clan that i was in broke up because of it. If ya want some practice ICQ me and i'll be glad to help anytime.
lata
Inferno
66375122

Selerox
11th Sep 2000, 05:50 PM
In the last month or so, I've improved a lot. I'm still a worse player than most of PuF, but I am getting better. Latly, I've been playing DM almost exclusivly and I am a better player for it, but in the last week, I've been getting angry with myself about my horribly inconsistant play.

I'll be playing well, and sometimes winning (something that was unheard of with me), and then after a while I'll loose it COMPLETLY. Nothing. I can't frag a thing for 5 minutes. Maybe I'll get the odd couple of kills here and there, but overall nothing. This screws up the game for me, and I get angry with myself cos I blew the game.

I know it's only a game, but it's really pissing me off :(

HuFlungDung
11th Sep 2000, 05:58 PM
Its the 425 and 428 UT patches that are to be blamed for a lot of present "plateaus", IMO. I've proven it to myself many times over lately: I can kick ass on a 413 or 420 server, but look like an absolute, untrained idiot on a 428 server. I can't get a handle on where or how much to lead my shots, or if the server even gives a damn anymore. Grrr. And, more and more servers are upgrading to 428 every day.

The_Inflictor
11th Sep 2000, 06:14 PM
My UT experience can be split into two periods:

1. When I was at uni playing online instead of doing my Finals: I had a very nice broadband connection and was doing well in the ngStats thingy-ma-jig (I think I reached the top 95th percentile in April). However, my skills weren't that special due to the 50 ping that I had...

2. When I moved back home and downgraded to 56k: I struggled tremendously for about a month or so. In that time I played Cobra 1v1 on Malevolence and got beaten by some stupid score (30-2 springs to mind :)). It was a scarey experience because I would respawn and be dead in a matter of seconds, but seeing that he could do It with a 56k connection meant that I could as well with a lot of practice.

Since then, I've definitley got better, although I know that I am far from an elite player. A couple of things have helped me out:

a) moving (eg jumping, dodging, strafing) in unpredictable ways,
b) my knowledge of certain maps has improved. Learning the "control points", where players tend to go, etc...

There's a demo of Voyd vs Cobra floating around, watch this to learn some tricks on Deck16 :)

c) being able to shock combo on the move. I don't how I developed this, but 50% of the time I can dodge, jump and pull off a combo (a real life saver :)),
d) there's almost definitly more, but I can't think of them :D

I've hit this plateau everyone is talking about, but I expect it. I know that during my cricket or football season, I will hit troughs but I'll also hit peaks as well. I'm also having a crappy problems with my connection which doesn't help also (packet loss is the bain of my life at the moment :().


I hope to enter a third period when I move back to uni. This is when I hopefully manage to get ADSL. From there, I hope to translate some of the skills developed whilst being a HPB to LPB-land.

BTW Sel, those 5 min periods really do suck. I still suffer from those :(

-[BHS]-Redfrost
11th Sep 2000, 06:39 PM
I think that one of the most important things to do to improve is as Snowdog and Cleaner said earlier, to watch demos of top players in their prime, and learn from them.

To give an example, I recently downloaded the demo of MMSS vs DFB in Orbital. Although I'm not a CTF player by clan choice, I do occasionally play it. And I have to honestly say, that I learned more about flag running watching that demo than I ever could have taught myself by trial and error. Everything from weapon selection, to routes to take, to jump boot usage in certain areas to throw off the pursuers were tactics that I improved upon just from watching this one match.

Also, if you're a lpb, play on some insta-gib servers. Your accuracy is always something you can improve! :)

DividedSky
11th Sep 2000, 06:41 PM
Redfrost: Any idea where I can find that demo?

Thanks.

DividedSky
11th Sep 2000, 06:43 PM
Never mind ... I found it at cached.net

http://www.c-sports.net/q3/q3demos/download.php3?dl=ut/mmssvsDFB-ogl1.zip&title=mmssvsDFB-ogl1.zip

Krypton|BuF
11th Sep 2000, 06:53 PM
Good point Inf, to compare UT with sports.

I had this "not improving anymore" - feeling too, both in sports and in UT.
In sports, I reached a level where i din't get better anymore, not even a little. I completely changed the style of my training, the points i focussed on, and (by now) even the team i'm playing with. And it helped me a lot. Got new trainers, mates, who help me/show me things i never thought of before.
In UT, it's exactly the same. Not that i'm a good player, no. But i downloaded tons of demos, just to see how the really good players fight. This was very impressive for me. It helps you as you see some tricks/predicting skillz and a lot more, things which bots (of course also the godlike ones) don't / can't do.

(But there is still much work for me to do in UT (NOT in sports, hehe. There's at least one thing i am very good at...). And, as the others posting here, i can't get rid of all the days/periods in the game where i really suck and can't even hit the floor with a redeemer...)

~Cobra~
11th Sep 2000, 07:16 PM
i also think that... as watchdog or someone has mentioned.. that it's a matter of perception as well... you might be improving just that everyone else is improving around you...

hal
11th Sep 2000, 07:44 PM
Man, I've never seen a thread more near and dear to my heart! DividedSky, I feel your pain.

All of this advice is absolutely dead on. Cleaner hit some of the high points in nice short bullet points. Everyone else expanded on it.

But when it gets down to it...practice time is at the top of the list. You have to have the ability to leap, turn and shoot with absolute precision. You have to know the levels inside and out... and those things take massive amounts of time. The best players practice the most, because when you're out there doing it, you're always learning new tricks and improving in some area.

How do I know this? Because I'm living it. When UT came out, I was able to spend hours a day playing it. I was already familiar with the weapons because I was an Unreal junkie. I could spend all my time learning the maps and the subtleties of the new game types. I improved on a weekly basis. Believe it or not, until earlier this year I was ranked Quarterly in the top 100 with a 99 percentile.

...and then it happened. :(

Real Life hit home, my job caused me to travel a lot and I was able to only play an hour or so a week. The mouse and keyboard that had become my alter-ego began to feel awkward and clumsy in my hands. I began to do worse in pick-up matches than I ever had. Think that's bad?

It got worse. :( My job required me to move from my home state to a new area that doesn't have cable or dsl like I was used to using. That has just compounded the problem.

Yes, I know I'm whining. I don't do it much, so sorry if it is too annoying. I really do love to play UT and other team games. I will find a way to do so. But for now, take it from me...quality practice/playing time (along with all of the other suggestions) is what counts.

BTW, having played you before, I can say that you are a very good player. Don't be so down on yourself. It could be worse..... ;)

Ineffectual
11th Sep 2000, 08:02 PM
Yeah, I feel like I've hit a plateau too... I only feel like I'm improving when I play heartless CTF matches with DA or someone else of higher caliber.. I know there are some things I need to work on (dodge springs to mind instantly), but I never really take the time to do it and that's probably what hurts me the most.. (Oh, BTW, this is a question that I've been meaning to ask, is there a latency period between dodges? ie: you dodge once and you have to wait 5 secs til you can dodge again in ANY direction?)



'Fect

lunchblaze
11th Sep 2000, 08:14 PM
i don't want to sound like i'm ass kissing here, but Cobra's first post in this thread is just about the most poignant thing i've read since i've been reading these forums.

Cobra, for some reason, i got the impression somewhere that you were fairly young (could be wrong about this), if so, your insight is all the more impressive.



out.

Alpo5
11th Sep 2000, 09:26 PM
I know exactly how you feel. I've been playing since
December and have progressed very little since May.
I'm playing at the adept level and that seems to be
as far as I'll get and win consistently offline. I can't
seem to get the hang of dodging. Ever run into some of the
UE clan guys? Forget dodging,
or anything else they literally run circles around most.

Online play did improve for me however after I upgraded
my processor, optimized my connection, and changed my
server. The largest increase came from upgrading my processor.
After upgrading, my kill ratio doubled from
an average of 4 per game to 8 per game. I didn't always
lose those close encounters, IE coming around a corner,
Flak Cannon verses Rocket Launcher. (BG) I went from a 500
PIII Secc II to a FC PGA 700 coppermine. Vast improvement
for the money. I've got it midly overclocked, and it was a
worthwhile investment. So if you are awesome offline, might
want to consider some of these improvements.

On the other hand, I don't take the game too seriously.
Some of those clan guys and girls are just bloody unreal.
The level of skill that they enjoy is a true spectacle to
behold, even if the results are you end up in a million
gibs all over the map. Not to mention some of the other more
colourful individual players.

The best I can offer you is to practice and watch what the
Dominating and Godlike players do. How they manage to run
circles with the minigun like they do, I'll never know.

I've had my butt kicked by you,(and everyone else) and you
are definitely heading in the right direction.

darklite
11th Sep 2000, 11:24 PM
Also, if you're a lpb, play on some insta-gib servers
even if you're a hpw.. play on instagib servers. my average ping on the servers I play on are pretty near to unplayable for me (270-325), but I still have a blast most of the time.
just cuz I'm bored, I'll post some ig ctf servers for the nth time:
dogz (unreal://12.27.229.252) - almost my "home" ut server, but is usually somewhat empty.. although it was pretty full today
shreve (unreal://208.206.76.88) - I've been playing here more than any place else.. gamemode is set to turbo. - both of those servers are prone to lag pretty often.. just a word of warning
fat's (unreal://209.123.198.156) - this is probably the place to go if you want to get better with your aim. I, pardon the term, own most of the time on shreve and dogz but I'm constantly reminded on fat's that I'm no where near the best.. I probably should play on there more.. but oh well
Oh, BTW, this is a question that I've been meaning to ask, is there a latency period between dodges?
yup; you also aren't able to dodge right after you land from a jump.

UE clan guys? Forget dodging, or anything else they literally run circles around most.
as in the unreal engine clan? heh, I was in a clan with someone that supposedly joined that clan; I saw him today with a UE nick. if these guys are as good as you say they are, I really don't know how this guy got in because I can whup his arse any day of the week :( weird thing is, this guy was from an IG CTF clan and I only knew him by playing IG CTF.. and by what I can gather from their webpage, they're a normal weapons TDM clan?.. oh well

Watchdog
12th Sep 2000, 02:49 AM
i know there are things that i can improve upon in my game, but my interest is starting to wane for UT. Red Alert 2 is looking more and more appealing (i think i need to get away from FPS for a bit).

[MUTTS]ImagoX
12th Sep 2000, 05:09 PM
What a great thread... It's for reasons like this that I keep coming back again and again to this community. There are some really great insights here.

I think the whole idea of the mental game cannot be stressed enough. I recently was camped firmly on the plateau that everyone is describing, and I was really frustrated. I'd go into an open server (CTF, DM, Team DM, it didn't matter), and score in the dead middle most games. No matter what I did, I could not break the mid-point barrier.

Then someone posted a great link to an article on these boards about three months ago, detailing what makes a great brain surgeon- the ability to think ahead and perceive time in chunks, just like athletes do. The idea was compelling to me, in a formless way, but it did not bear fruit until a few days later...

Later that week, I was fragging in Hyperblast, and it was weird, but I suddenly started wondering what the OTHER guy that was shooting at me would think about what I was doing, and it was like a light went on in my head- I knew what *I* would do, and where *I* would go if I were him, and based on that I started lobbing flak secondary grenades into ramps and corners. It was freaky- I'd shoot, and BAM, someone would step more often than not right into my shot. It was nearly telepathic, that wonderful "groove". Since then, I've managed to slip into that groove more and more easily, and find myself fighting the controls less, and fragging better. Not always, but more, and that's fun. :D

The mental game applies to other situations as well. I recently did some 1-1 matches with some of my fellow team mates, some of which have near Jedi-like reflexes. When trying to match them in their own game, their younger twitch-reflexs beat my old-man skillz hands down. BUT, when I started doing things to change the rules (running, retreating, chipping away at him bit-by-bit, dodging), then it was a whole new game. I ended up loosing in the end, true, but the score was MUCH MUCH closer, and I had a great deal more fun.

Hope that helps someone.

lunchblaze
12th Sep 2000, 05:14 PM
just like chess.
play the opponent, not the game.


out.

HuFlungDung
12th Sep 2000, 05:36 PM
RE: dodge time restriction: don't dodge, use manual strafe left and right, there is no time restriction:)
Anybody who has a config like WASD is handicapping themselves, IMO, because you can only get 3 fingers on those 4 keys handily, and you probably won't be ready for instant forward and reverse. Just a thought.

The_Inflictor
12th Sep 2000, 07:13 PM
Anybody who has a config like WASD is handicapping themselves, IMO, because you can only get 3 fingers on those 4 keys handily, and you probably won't be ready for instant forward and reverse

Point taken and I think everyone would agree completely, but seeing that you have a solution, what is it?

(Please don't say PantherXL :()

DividedSky
12th Sep 2000, 08:23 PM
W00t! Thanks for everyone's replies ... it appears I'm not alone in my plateau-ness. I think the thing I could really improve on is dodging in a firefight. It doesn't come naturally, I have to think about it, and when I do I forget to fire my weapon :) I think "Okay, I'm gonna dodge now" but unfortunately I don't possess the mental capacity to actually shoot while thinking that. I've learned that not shooting isn't a good way to stay alive :)

bodkins
12th Sep 2000, 09:34 PM
Hi DS,

Boy, another one of these threads. Good stuff. I have a solution to the wasd dilema. I'm a mouse runner, soooo;

right mouse is forward.
spacebar is back
f is strafe right
d is strafe left

I always hold the right mouse down. To stop, I hit space.(forward+back = stop). At that point I can move in any direction not by pressing a key, but by releasing a key. Ever so slightly quicker. It may only work for me.

Now on to the thread topic. I feel your pain DS, well honestly I don't. It's difficult for me to feel the pain of a player that is better than me who has plateaued. Just kidding .... as far as you know. Step back from this just a touch.

When you started you needed to learn the game (weapons, movement, maps etc). That's a lot. When you started you needed to develope the "hand eye" thing. That's a lot. But when you started you knew something that you may have forgotten. And that was the "point". In a melee the "point" is the frag, not the dance. Keep it simple. If you can get a frag while standing stock still, essentially an execution, then that is ideal. If you are dancing with your opponent, then something didnt work and your opponent is fighting back. The point is not to demonstrate your dancing skills. It is the frag. If you focus on all the skills you have learned to this point you WILL end up in a dance.

What's the difference? Thought. IMO, the better players dont dance (although they can). They quickly pick the right weapon, either manouver to the right location or manouver you to the right location, and then kill you.

In my opinion, having played you, you are at a place where simple demonstrations of your "dancing" abilities are out of place. You can dance. The next level for you involves a little more simplicity. Size up the situation quicker. Make decisions that will setup the killing shot without setting up your opponents killing shot. And kill them.

On orbital once I was playing {318}Foo! (and others). I saw him and attacked. He quickly ran. Ahh, I'm thinking he must be hurt. I persued. Right into a combo in the kisser. I was the Foo!, not him. He recognized that I had the advantage and quickly changed that and killed me; no dancing.

What you need now are not skills really. You have those. You need good decisions.

BTW, I have seen the better players avoid complex movements. They have the right weapon, manouver only as needed and AIM the shot to kill. Simple and deadly if executed well. When I see someone hopping and straffing like mad, it is usually someone that just developed that ability. How can you accurately aim the killing shot while doing all that. That type of movement seems defensive to me, and THAT means you have just given your opponent the advantage. Kill in one or two shots or empty your weapon at your opponent dancing with him. You choose.

I'm going to define several things (as proposals)

Level 1 - learn physical coordination, weapons maps etc.

Level 2 - learn to make good DECISIONS that allow you to apply the skills learned in level 1.

DS, you are already at level 2 and may not realize it. I don't think focusing on level 1 skills will help you. You need to focus on level 2 skills, although level 1 skills will probably continue to impove anyway. You need to change "what" you do not specifically "how" you do it.

And finally, thank you sooo much for the server. My ping isnt great, but it is at least smooth. That's good for me. I plan to play there much more often.

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com

Temporary Account
12th Sep 2000, 09:56 PM
Wow...now THAT's some good advice. Damn.

Watchdog
12th Sep 2000, 11:36 PM
yeah ive noticed that too--great players make it look easy.

Blatant Bastich
13th Sep 2000, 12:11 AM
Everyone in this thead has made some simply awesome points! But I feel Hal said it best, there is no substitute for hardcore playing time. I remeber three months ago when my gal and her son were gone on a two week vacation. I played UT day and night and made progress in leaps and bounds in very little time. Now that my playing time has decreased I feel I too have reached that dreaded plateau :(

I have tried the hardware route to improve: new mouse and vid card.

I have tried the tweak route: lose the weapon view and change mouse sensistivity.

But the only thing that seems to be working is the IDGAF method :)

By implementing IDGAF I have noticed recent improvement. I will try to continue this method for the rest of my playing days. No more gripping the mouse with IDGAF, no more getting pissed a llamas, and not caring about my personal score in team games. YES, with IDGAF I'm back on track of improvment :)

Just remeber if you die "IDGAF" respawn and try again!
Some one being a wiener "IDGAF" ignore him and go on!
Is someone way out classing you and making you feel dumb "IDGAF" learn from them!

See if it helps you!


.
.
.
.
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oh yeah IDGAF = I DON"T GIVE A F@CK ...like you needed to know ;)

HuFlungDung
13th Sep 2000, 12:52 AM
Wow, Bodkin, that is quite the mouse setup you've got going! That would throw me for a loop. What do you do for alt fire and translocator and weapon switch?
I can see what you are driving at in your advice about dancing, but I disagree mildly. I just long for the moment when the enemy stops moving for an instant, because in the next one, he's catching a flak grenade or a bullet to the head. The only time I get killed by a stationary opponent is when he has anticipated where I am going and he's got a combo ready! Anticipated shots are great to pull off, but they are not the mainstay of the game. If you are playing with lag, the reason for the dance is because your lead is off a bit. There is often not enough visual feedback to see where the shot went. So, the uncertainty factor is the main problem I deal with.

So far as keyboard binds and WASD, just spread out the keys a bit, it doesn't really matter which ones you use. I think it is important to make use of all 5 fingers of your left hand, (even that is not enough). For example, I use left pinkie on shift for forward, Z strafe left (4th finger), X strafe right(middle finger), C reload (for games that require it, index finger),left Control for crouch (laying pinkie down across both shift and Ctrl if required), back is thumb on spacebar. Jump is on S. Walk is on A. I can't jump AND strafe right with this setup, but I haven't figured out anything better yet. If your keyboard has a decent sized left shift key, you can fairly easily keep your little finger busy, while still moving your middle three fingers to the row above ZXC. Keeping your pinkie planted on shift helps to keep your hand in the proper place.

hal
13th Sep 2000, 01:26 AM
I just love the insight everyone has about playing this game.

bodkins, in addition to having the most unusual keybinds I've heard of, you hit on some important points. Not everything you can improve on is physical.

There is a definite mental game as has been pointed out. What you discovered was the combo-bait. You saw Foo! run away and figured you had an easy kill - and found out you were wrong. It is a BAD idea to chase an opponent because you don't know where they are going...but they sure know where you are going. Most likely they'll greet you there with some heavy artillery.

Don't overlook the repetitious nature of the game, however. You have to play a lot to even get to your second level and retain those first level skills.

That dancing you were talking about is important if you are within deadly range of whatever weapon your opponent happens to be wielding. If you are in said range, you'll need to be sure you are moving as unpredictably as possible or you'll find out why you should be. If you are out of that range or are able to retreat to a place where you will be, feel free to stand still and shoot away.

The best players:

*Shoot/avoid you before you have a chance to even see them.
*Bait you into chasing them so that they "position you".
*Remain at full armor/health.
*Know where you are or will be going.
*Are able to "dance" effectively when all else fails.

All that takes massive "in-game" time and an intimate knowledge of maps, weapons and strategy. No small feat.

bodkins
13th Sep 2000, 05:07 AM
Hey,

I couldn't agree more. If I gave you the impression that defensive movement was bad, then I gave you the wrong impression. When I'm under intense attack, I hop like a bunny.

The "dance" that I was referring to I also call the Thresh square dance. That is, two players circle strafe and hop like mothers while trying to shoot each other in the feet with rockets. Stupid.

I move constantly by the way. I have trained myself to "aim" while moving and strafing. BUT I try not to "hop" while I'm on the attack. It throws off my aim and destabalizes my weapon. I reserve that as a butt saving manouver.

I only used the stationary shot as an example of something ideal. That is, you manouver SOOO cleverly, that your opponent has no idea where you are and you simply execute him. That's rare. Usually, you need to move in combat. Clearly.

I played a guy at Swine the other night named Goku|LAO|. Wow. He didnt jump once. He moved like a hawk on a pursuit course for a rabbit. And in one or two shots he had me. DAMN. He was just playing around most of the match. Untill finally I said to him "are you gonna play micro FFA's or CTF". He laughed and said ok, I'll play CTF now. He was good.

When I see someone coming, running, and when they see me they start to hop like crazy, I KNOW I have them. Because I know that the only thing they can do is the "Thresh square dance". Very limited. Using the right weapon in its primary range is very effective. Hoppers just LOVE alternate rockets all over fired by a retreating defender.

Which reminds me. A simple retreat in the face of fire, (Firing while retreating backwards) is remarkable. The blue stairs on november are trivial to defend this way.

And finally, you are also right that UT is a game that MUST be played. You cannot just think about it. The detatchment mentioned in an earlier post makes great sense to me also.

Really good comments here.

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com

P.S.

Online I suck. Offline I'm a little better. I learned offline; speed, accuracy, precision etc. None of that works online for me. I have majorly tweaked bots. Nasty bastards. They will headshot you out of a boot jump. Sooo, I have learned how to set up my shots without giving them too many. At least offline. If I ever get DSL, maybe I'll still suck online. -)

bodkins
13th Sep 2000, 05:23 AM
Ooops,

One last thing. I actually use the tloc as a means of movement. Even then I don't always use it. The reason? You cant shoot someone without a weapon. If I am even a little unsure of my surroundings, I change weapons constantly to fit the situation as I run, aiming in the general direction of greatest threat. That way, if something happens, I have a gun in my hands pointed in the generally correct direction.

Some people seem to prefer tlocing to walking in all cases. I'm not sure I agree with that. I have killed MANY tlocers (hydro mainly) that tried to blink past me.

Just a thought.

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com

P.S.

The telefrag is a sucker shot. It generally only works if you don't see it coming. By sucker shot I mean it requires surprise. Not that the user is a sucker. -)

Ghode
13th Sep 2000, 05:34 AM
wow ive just read the thread, i alway used to think i was a crappy player, but all the suggestions people have made i always assumed everyone did them. but i have used these tactics for ages and i have to admit it improves your game loads. i think the post i most agreee with is the mind game post. i am primairily a flag runner, which means that i have to judge where the defence will be, when i enter the base, and also where they will most likely be when u exit the base. when i first started i would just leave the base gunsblazing, but now i use all different tactics. for example on coret if i am leaving the upper exit i will and i get to the Amour ramp i let off a few grenades, chances are some1 will be there, what this does it makes the NMe move backward tryin to get away from grenades, also if it hits them they loose health so u can whip out a flak to finish them off when u dodge down the ramp.

i think anticipation is one of the most important factos in this game. even if u dont have a good aim if u can anticpate where a player will be u can use the UT spam tactics to take them out.

Practice also helps since the more you practice the more u will learn how other players thinks, since on most maps there a key defensive point u will allway know to fire rockets/flak in that direction. only practice with humans can teach u this.

Ineffectual
13th Sep 2000, 01:22 PM
Ok... I think this is one of the major reasons for me not wanting to learn dodge then... If there is such a latency time, what good is it to dodge constantly (like I've seen some members of |C| and other clans do)? Do they just have an impeccable sense of timing and know when the dodge can be used again? My other problem with dodging (which is probably due to lack of use) is that while dodging, I can't walk/run forward normally... is this really just due to lack of use or is there a trick to that too?



'Fect

-BHS-Snowdog
13th Sep 2000, 01:35 PM
Well, I've found that dodging is best used when the situation calls for it, i.e. when you see a shock secondary on the way, rather than as a constant action. However, I would imagine that with practice you can get the timing down after a while, and be able to instinctively know how far apart continous dodges can be executed. I'm not to that point, but I'm sure there are folks that are.

I think one of the most effective uses of the dodge is to throw off other player's timing, however slightly. There are some spots on the Dom maps that I know so well, I can time rockets or shock combos just by getting a glimpse of a player. If they dodge a couple of times before they come into my killing zone, it can throw off the timing enough to cost me a frag. Same concept on Coret, shock bombing the flag carrier going out high from the flag holder: two forward dodges when coming off that jump pad is enough to affect the timing and save them (usually.)

DividedSky
13th Sep 2000, 01:36 PM
'Fect:

The moving forward thing ... I just turn 90 degrees and dodge sideways. Maybe not the best solution, but I'm getting used to it.

Learning to dodge is kind of dodgy :) When I decided to take the plunge and turn on dodging ... well, I definitely took a plunge. In my NGStats, into lava, off of the tower in Face, etc. It takes a while to get used to and you'll do lots of dumb things that will drive you mad. I mean, I'd just be running along one of the bottom catwalks on Lava Giant and accidentally tap a key twice to adjust my direction and *SIZZLE*.

Without consciously doing anything, I'm now used to it and hardly ever "accidentally" dodge. As I stated previously, I'd still like to become more natural at it when fighting someone. I use it a lot when running around, but my brain's multitasking abilities (or lack thereof) prevent me from using it effectively in combat situations.

Despite all the frustration I went through, I'm glad I turned dodging on.

UT Lobo
13th Sep 2000, 01:41 PM
I posted this on another thread too, but after reviewing some of this 'good stuff', I thought I would place it here also

Not kidding, maybe I drank too much coffee or just wasn't in sync with game lag, I don't know.

First the background, then the questions:

Last night I was pummelled ungraciously by some truely superior players. The first time I have ever backed out of a game before it was finished.

Now this really came as a shock to me, I am normally within the top three of any CTF match I am in, so my ego took a good bruising.

I had the misfortune of running across:

1) a great team

I am team orientated but have never been part of a clan officially, so team communication is not my forte, this means I couldnt get back-up while the bad guys swarmed over me. I managed to get their flag no less than 5 times and inevitably when coming back for the cap, nailed by two or three bogies in sync. It was neat to see, but not at all cool to receive their special attention.

2) a really good combo shooter (Fargo...he is skilled beware)

Now I have been blasted by combos my share, but not like last night. For a while I felt like I was just using up the shooter's charges, 4 at a time. I probably accounted for 52+ shock rifle charges in 15 minutes. For the first time I think I spent more time dying than shooting.

Not cool.

On ctf lavagiant the bogies would have 2-3 players that would hassle our team as they spawned. No big deal...happens all the time right? Well what if one of these guys can somehow time those combos perfectly? And what if another is very skilled at dishing out telefrags?

I usually couldn't even get a weapon, it was that quick.

I have to give alot of snaps for their skilled playing but D_A_M_N!!

3) Teletrainers and Telefraggers:

Well I already touched on that. They were as good as I have seen, and combine that with their team skills...ouch.

************************
So my questions are:

1. Tips for getting better with Shock rifle combos? when to use them, and how to move when using them. I have always used combos to great effect on short ranges, stationary.

Any good ways to improve dodging combo shots? Do you watch the direction the guy is pointing, or the ball as it is coming? does jumping or crouching help? Trying to xloc the feck out o' there?

Next time I see one should I just do a hump dance and get it over with? (hah...be funny to see)

2. Tips on xlocs, I have gotten fairly skilled with practice, but is there anything you all notice from your practicing? I have pieced together that I can teletrain like a fiend, but have a diffult time landing once airborne. When I rack up a telefrag it is either luck, or a bad guy that doesn't move giving me the second or so I need to aim.

3. Tips on universal codes for flag runners? Any way to macro in sayings, or bind commands/info to keys?

I have seen a few suggestions but never see them in use. And of course typing while running to cap a flag is tough. Also codes for giving backup to a runner? Or is this something that comes with a clan? I so, how can I meet some of you fellow [PuF]ers,I like your style and would be happy to add the tag to my handle and work out with yas. The strategy and the teamwork bring me as much, if not more satisfaction than the kill count.

*********************


Now I am going to spend some time over the next few days with the bots and work on some new key bindings to improve team playing and spend some time just x-locing and combo shooting.


I you have any tips, let me know so I can test them out.

Thx

Morety
13th Sep 2000, 01:44 PM
Dodging's a great tool for flag running. turn a bit to the left, dodge right. Turn a bit to the right, dodge left. Gets a bit of extra speed for a no x-loc run. It's a timing thing too. "Dodge and a one and a Dodge and a two...cha cha cha."

I use is sparingly in a firefight.

Ineffectual
13th Sep 2000, 02:05 PM
Well, I've always had dodging turned on, so I hardly ever dodge into lava or whatever accidentally, but I can't seem to wrap my mind around when it's appropriate to dodge on purpose... ;) I've seen players that do it constantly and I know most players don't do it at all... Anyway... I think maybe I need to corner some people that I've seen do it and beg for their tricks/reasons... ;)



As for CTF binds... I pretty much have a set for every map... I use the textfile route, where you can set a number of keys to be specific to each map and at the beginning of a map, you type 'exec textfile.txt' and it loads those binds... (You have to set the binds like this 'SET INPUT key teamsay blahblahblah' - the SET INPUT is important.) Now the keys that I generally replace every game are the numpad and the left/right brackets because I do defense and those are flag carrier directions. One thing that's important for offense to note is which DIRECTION their binds are from... (ie: facing the enemy base or coming back from the enemy basee). Lots of flag carriers simply have "I have the flag" or "I need some backup" bound, but since those are voice binds you can't say them too often, so I've also seen people with "<--- I am here with the flag (and a beer)" bound or "I have the flag and am low on health".



'Fect

Temporary Account
13th Sep 2000, 02:39 PM
As far as directions with binds go, all my Incoming and Flag carrier leaving binds are from a position in our base facing the enemy's base. These binds are to alert defenders of where they need to be/go, so it's important their orientation isn't screwed up. My "I'm leaving with the flag left/right/etc..." binds, however, are just the opposite, as I don't have time to think about reversing directions when I'm running with the flag.

I just have generic keybinds that I use for all maps, as follows (note, I don't know the actual speech commands offhand, so I'll use what you say)

=speech "Incoming" | teamsay [--Enemy ABOVE--] (Right/Left/Below)
=teamsay [--Leaving HIGH with flag--] (low/left/right)
=teamsay [--Enemy FC going HIGH--] (low/left/right)
=teamsay <===I'm here with the flag.
=speech "I need some backup" | <===I am here

This group of keybindings will get you through most situations. I also use GameCommander, so I don't actually have to hit any of these keys.

If you want to look at my actual .ini, the relevant portions are available at my clans website in the Roster section.

DividedSky
13th Sep 2000, 02:47 PM
Yeah, Morety's right. For movement purposes, doding is mostly applicable as a flag carrier, since if you don't have the flag you'll most likely be TL'ing.

So 'Fect, considering you're a defensive player dodging for movement might not come in too handy if you seldom have the flag.

UT Lobo
13th Sep 2000, 02:49 PM
good tips crusher,

we've fragged before and I have heard your bindings on the teamsay.

so do you bind the left/right/above stuff separately fromthe teamsay: 'Im coming with the flag'

I'll stop by your clan site, thx fer the tip.

HuFlungDung
13th Sep 2000, 03:09 PM
Correct this impression I have, but if you dodge using the game's built in dodge function, do you not somersault at the same moment? If so, I very seldom see people dodging, they are all left/right side strafing, just like I do.

DividedSky
13th Sep 2000, 03:15 PM
Depends on the model. I might be wrong, but I think the male/female models only somersault with a forward dodge, and not a left/right/back dodge.

Arkive
13th Sep 2000, 03:39 PM
I use a dodging a *lot*, so I'll list my reasons, and I encourage others to add to it.

1) For the most part, I learned dodging when I was playing Instagib exclusively...because without dodging in Instagib, you might as well kiss your arse goodbye because someone with a reasonable level of skill will easily incinerate someone who is just jumping (for the most part...in Instagib). Also, when you do find yourself "dancing" with an opponent, it is a very good tactic to dodge every once in a while. That, with the occasional jump, pause, and strafe will help throw off their anticipation and give you a little bit longer to drop a few rounds into them...assuming you can keep your aim true while doing all of this. As someone else pointed out...hopping around and dodging is useless if you can't keep a bead on the opponent while you do it. Learning how to keep your aim while dodging is probably one of the hardest skills in my opinion to learn, one I'm still struggling with, but once learned will prove very helpful in battles.

2) This has already been touched on, but dodging to avoid taking damage also comes into play, especially when confronted with an opponent with the shock rifle. Now, it won't keep you from taking some damage, but it will definitely reduce the amount you incur. You see a shock ball coming at you, make a quick dodge and drop some ammo into them just before (or after) you dodge. This is also very useful when you feel someone's minigun nipping at you. A quick dodge is very useful to get the bead off you and give you a chance retreat or return fire.

3) Again, as a flag carrier, the dodge is also really useful for speeding up your trip back to base, especially on levels with sloped surfaces. Once I clear the peak on the middle of Face where the keg is...I can usually make two quick dodges and I'm right in front of my base because the dodge gives me much more forward momentum then a regular jump. Also works well on getting down stairs faster...or juking out your opponent on the getaway (i.e. running up one of the sloped edges on Bolwerk after grabbing the flag like you're gonna take the side exit, then dodge over the lava and make a beeline for the front door).

4) It's really good for coming around corners...especially on tight maps. It's also good for getting the jump on campers who are waiting for you to come around the corner. Just load up on some rockets before you reach the turn, dodge around the corner, and let them have it. Or, strafe around the corner, fire, and then dodge back out of the way of their fire.

BTW...just as a note, like DS mentioned, I also almost never forward dodge...I too turn 90 degrees then dodge using the opposite direction key if I want to dodge forward. Forward dodging just doesn't feel natural, however, left and right dodging comes very natural for some odd reason...go figure. Maybe my middle finger just doesn't like doing anything other then flipping my monitor the bird when DA or Cobra (or anyone) shove a rocket cluster up my hiney. :p Anyway...hope some other ppl will add to this, and ppl who aren't using the dodge, will decide to pick it up....it's a pretty damn useful function in my opinion.

Jeff

5150
13th Sep 2000, 03:57 PM
Great thread!
This may not work for everyone,but if your really hardcore ie. play EVERY day for hours and hours.
Try not playing for a couple maybe even three days(I know it's hard).It can do wonders to un frazzle your brain and give you a fresh perspective.

[MUTTS]ImagoX
13th Sep 2000, 04:05 PM
In regards to this quote by Bodkin;

>>>The telefrag is a sucker shot. It generally only works if you don't see it coming. By sucker shot I mean it requires surprise. Not that the user is a sucker. -) <<<

I'm afraid I MUST disagree... I was playing in an open CTF server on Hydro against someone (don't remember the name, but he had a clan tag) that used the xlocator almost EXCLUSIVELY to move AND ATTACK!! He'd run accross the brigdes xlocating really really quickly (wich I knew how he did it so fast), and then he's run after me and telefrag me. He did it like *10 or 15 times* in a row, often wiping out 2-3 defenders in the courtyard- we could not touch him- all our shots missed him as he was porting all over the place. The trick seemed to be that he would fire the beacon and then teleport a fraction of a second later... it was really humbling to see.

In addition, I've certainly seen many good players out there that can do the "bunny hop" while killing at will- it's not just a tactic employed by people that feel they need to go on the defensive... :)

Morety
13th Sep 2000, 04:28 PM
I've got my numpad4 set to say incoming. My Delete key is "LEFT or ABOVE", my Page Down key is "RIGHT or BELOW". Since I'm sending these to the defenders, I always give them from our flag facing out.

I also have a button that says "I died, #@$@$", but that wouldn't be of much use on a public server, as attacks are rarely coordinated.

I love to dodge around corners. Dodge-run the flag. Occasional dodge in a dance to keep from being totally unpredictable.

After you cross the peak in Face, try a hammer jump if you have the health. ;)

hobart_paving
13th Sep 2000, 04:31 PM
on hydro, if you x-loc that fast it pretty much means you're going in a straight line. that's what snipers at the end of the bridges are good for. :)

as for hopping, i find it's really useful when you use rockets. it gives you two advantages:

1.) you get a better angle to the ground. i NEVER shoot a rocket at a person. i always shoot the ground where i think they'll be. that's hard if they're not right near you on a large flat map. if you jump you get a better angle and you can hit where you want to with more accuracy.

2.) in a close-up fight, jumping lets you fire closer to your position without taking splash damage.

i jump-fire rockets without even thinking about it. and i'm jumping even when i only expect that i might have to fire rockets soon. i guess if you watch me play i'm like a rabbit hopping around everywhere. i don't necessarily consider that a sign that i'm a defensive newbie or anything, though. ;)

hobart_paving
13th Sep 2000, 04:35 PM
oh, and i've gotten enough telefrags where the other guy knew i was coming. it might be a luck shot, but you can't always stop it even if you know well ahead of time that it's coming...

bodkins
13th Sep 2000, 05:36 PM
Hey,

Hobart, the difference is you are using the hop for a specific purpose. You aren't just expending nervous energy. You are right in the way you use the RL and the hop. I've seen your melees, they don't last long. A few shots generally ends it one way or the other. That's more of a tactical manouver and less of a dance I think. It's a fine point.

And the tloc, respectfully I dissagree. If you are in close with a hyper-tlocer you get what you deserve. Get the hell out of there dummy (j/k). What's he gonna do shoot you? NO. He doesnt have a weapon. If you are not in close, they have a long shot and you only have to move a VERY small distance. They have the more difficult task it seams to me.

Keep tlocers at a distance, they have no weapon so dont worry much about getting fragged. Just stay out of their way. Stand still, and it's as easy for them as shooting a column. I don't stand still. Just think of the LARGE number of frags in a typical match and the small number to tloc frags. Check ngstats if you dont believe me. By comparison, tloc frags are uncommon.

In CTF, engage them at a distance. They arent a threat until either they pull a piece or get the flag. The equation changes then. With some players, the 187 guys for example, it is easier to let them have the flag and then fight them. Or kill them at the flag, eh Ineff, combo babe?

A comment to Ineff. I think it is possible to move well without using dodge. I dont use it. I want to control what I do. There are several things you wont get. That dodge speed increase and a net connection advantage. Online I have problems getting control input to the server because of my connection. Dodge "mimics" a complex sequence of control inputs without requiring them to be sent to the server. A savings for hpb's. And you're not an hpb, (unless hpb means "Hot Ph33rsom3 Babe"). I have no idea how to spell like that. My keyboard, unfortunately, has all the keys.

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com

Ruffrider
13th Sep 2000, 08:18 PM
This plateau some of you are speaking of has hit the almighty ruff one to. Instead of a Increase in skill, I see myself as decreasing in skill. Alarion tells me im wrong but I still see myself as getting worse by the day until know. I noticed that as I got better, I would get accustomed to that skill level and be very upset when i wasnt at it. Now that Im staying at one level I feel that Im getting worse... when im really just as good as I was before. The thing I think thats gone wrong is my way of thinking. If you think your going to destroy everything like I did before, well than your going to have a tough time when your losing in your mind, but in real life your actually just at the same level. I have decided to go into a game a little more conservative thinking, Im going to try my hardest, and as long as I know im trying, than eventually I will improve. Sure improving has been going slower and slower, but at least Im still improving at a slow pace instead of being stuck in one spot.

hal
13th Sep 2000, 11:58 PM
If you don't use dodging in UT, you'll be in big trouble. It's perfect for flag carrying and up-close melees.

[MUTTS]ImagoX
14th Sep 2000, 12:09 PM
In reply to ideas about combatting an attacking xlocator;

1) Can't run away- the disc moves faster than you can run, so running is not an option- you will be overtaken. Besides, running really is NOT an option- this is a CTF scenario, and if everyone scatters from the courtyard in panic when this guy shows up, then your defense is gone, right? I want to KILL the bastich!

2) Fast xlocating in a straight line- No NO NO... he was xlocating all over the place, side to side, in circles- it was really something to see. I'd retreat and dodge to the sides, but due to his increased speed with the disc, he'd always catch up to me. I don't suck at UT, and I know how to avoid more shots than most, but nothing I tried helped very much against this sort of attack. Any ideas?

GunnerX
14th Sep 2000, 12:35 PM
Be one with the Bunny Man!!

Dodge and jump around a lot while moving. Not many people can telefrag me (specially when I have the flak or asmd). I'm sure you've seen what I do. I jump around sideways but, hardly forwards or backwards. It's a lot harder to get you when you are constantly moving sideways and in a circle. Also, you can change direction ASAP and be hard to get.

Here's another hint. If all else fails, use the impact hammer. :D

[MUTTS]ImagoX
14th Sep 2000, 02:09 PM
To get away, or to frag the bastich? How can I hammer the guy when he's porting all around me? Guess I'll have to just keep practicing... :(

bodkins
14th Sep 2000, 07:55 PM
Hi,

I think you missed my point. You don't have to flee for your life from a tlocer. My point was, NO ONE is going to tloc me unless they are VERY close or I don't see it coming. Long range tlocs, maybe 30 feet and out, are just VERY difficult. You seem impressed with the speed of the disc. I'm not. Once the disc is shot it flies in a straight line. I only have to move 2 FEET, and the disc misses. Easy.

Stand in close, or stand still, and you deserve to be tloced.

You said you wanted to frag the bastich. Well, ok. That's your business. I'll take a few area shots as he passes and not worry to much about him "fragging" me. I'll get him when he pulls a weapon or gets the flag.

GunnerX is right. And he IS a Mutt. -)

Thanks, from a dog fancier.

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com


P.S

You can dodge a rocket can't you? I'm not sure a disc is as fast as a rocket.

hal
14th Sep 2000, 08:22 PM
Well the best weapon I've used for combating crazed x-loc'ers is the Flak Cannon or the ShockRifle alt-fire. An x-loc'er that misses you close up is probably gonna die when you hit him with Flak from close range.

Boom
14th Sep 2000, 08:55 PM
ImagoX, I was having that problem with one of your [Mutts] bretheren (I don't remember which Mutt it was :() Everytime he would approach me, he would up the pace of his teletraining and telefrag me. I tried everything. I would dodge sideways, I would jump like a bunny, I would flak him, I would shock at him. I was killing him one out of five times and he was telefragging me the other 4 times. I tried what Bodkins said too. Bodkins you are missing one important factor. Ok, you said stay far away from the guy. That makes sense, nobody can telefrag me from 20 feet away, the telethiny flys too slow in the air. So he throws it at me, and I move two feet away, just like you said in your last post. BUT THEN HE IS ONLY TWO FEET AWAY FROM ME!!!! So then he starts teletraining at me, and I try to get far away again, but I can't! You can't outrun someone who is skilled with the telethingy. And you cant stay 20 feet away from someone who is skilled with it. No matter what you do, if he wants to get close to you, he will. And its hard to kill him while he is still far away, because by the time your rocket/flak/whatever gets there, he is already not there anymore. So whatever I do this guy gets close to me and I dodge, i jump, I flak, I shock, etc etc etc. Still he gets me 4 out of 5 times. *sigh*

ImagoX, here is my advice. Figure out which MUTT I am talking about (he was really cool, good sport, nice guy, fun to play with and stuff and super skilled with the X-loc. Come back to this thread and name a few MUTTS and I will tell you who he was. Whoever he was, it was a pleasure to play with him. Fun guy, even with the frustration of being turned inside out all the time :)). Get on a private server with him and tell him to try and telefrag you while you try and kill him. You will probably be able to get him 1 out of 5 times like me. But if you keep practicing, you may be able to up that a bit and use it against other telemonkeys. If you figure out anything in particular that works, TELL ME!!! ;)

hal
14th Sep 2000, 09:32 PM
This is crazy! We're talking about a teleporting device wreaking havoc on the UT battlefields. Does anyone still say that there is no problem with it? Some limitations are still needed.

Temporary Account
14th Sep 2000, 09:41 PM
I don't have a problem with the t/l. :p

bodkins
14th Sep 2000, 09:42 PM
Hey Hal,

I agree with you. All weapons will inflict team damage. Except the tloc. You can kill yourself will all weapons. Except the tloc. (Even if your tloc gets damaged, just walk over it and harmlessly pick it up). Notice a pattern here? What are you gonna do. (Personally, I would make the tloc TOTALLY non-leathal. But then we would have to listen to Cookie whine. Just joking Cookie.)

In a team game, it's not as likely that a tlocer could focus on just one player. But hey. Maybe. I would like to try Boom's idea. Not to prove anything. Just to see for myself.

There is another solution. If a player had a suicide redeemer up his butt, that would do it.

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com

bodkins
14th Sep 2000, 09:51 PM
Hey Soul,

Your post came in while is was posting. I've seen you tloc. You're right. You don't have a problem with the t/l -)

Truthfully, the only problem I have is either when someone goes TOTALLY overboard with it or with Epic for not thinking this through and allowing people to go TOTALLY overboard with it.

Yesterday, while playing good bots, I found myself ONLY using combos, sniper rifle and tloc. So much for everything else. And you know, if the redeemer were as plentiful as the tloc, guess what people would go TOTALLY overboard with.

Other than hurting my frame rate, you have never abused the tloc that I can remember. (I don't know about your tail though. It wiggles saucilly).

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com

GunnerX
15th Sep 2000, 12:52 AM
Boom, I shall name 2 member of muTTs in which one of them will be the culprit.. :)

[muTTs]Alarion
[muTTs]NeuralizR

My guess would be Al since he's a teletraining mofo. :D

wiggum_pi
15th Sep 2000, 03:28 AM
Make friends w/ a really good player, and ask him to do a couple of skirmishes with him. Just go to a map like LavaGiant, and ask to some SR vs SR fights. Maybe do this for 20 minutes, then a different weapon for the next 20 minutes, etc. Hype and I do this all the time, and I think it helps both of us alot.

hal
15th Sep 2000, 09:49 AM
Cookie, you'd be a good tutor.

wiggum_pi
15th Sep 2000, 01:48 PM
Haha, nope... prior to yesterday, I hadn't touched a computer in 10 days. Right now, I'm Newbie Cookie, and I'm rapidly losing interest in UT :/.

DividedSky
15th Sep 2000, 01:50 PM
I've often wondered if, as UT ages, the l33t players will grow bored and move on to other things, leaving us less-than-l33t players to suddenly be the l33t players by default.

[MUTTS]ImagoX
15th Sep 2000, 02:50 PM
Thanks for all the good advice...

To clarify however; I generally have little to no trouble with xloc-whores, using the advise presented above (moving, jumping, etc.). It was just with this ONE PARTICULAR player that was somehow able to launch the disc and then 'port extremely rapidly (like 4-5 times a SECOND!!!- I didn't know that was possible).

I suspect from practicing myself that what this guy has going is a custom bind (I know I've seen a few on these boards in fact), where whe he presses a button the disc flies, and when he releases it, he ports, making his teleports as fast as he can hit a single key... I use two mouse buttons (Primary/Secondary fire) to launce/'port myself, and no matter how fast I click, I can't get HALF the speed this guy was displaying. Now I'm thinking more than ever of creating this custom bind for my layout, just so I can defend myself against this in the future.

Thanks again all!

Oh, by the way, I think there's something to the idea that the fun of UT wanes over time, and people leave the game. But, last time I checked there were still HELLA lots of people playing Quake 2 and Half-Life (two much older games than UT), and I know from personal experience that some of those people are REALLY GOOD. I've played in lots of open UT games, and I still get thumped about half the time, despite my ever-increasing skills. So, I think it's a bit disrespectful to say that the current "elite" of UT players have just "inherited" that status undeserving... Just my $.02.

DividedSky
15th Sep 2000, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by [MUTTS]ImagoX
So, I think it's a bit disrespectful to say that the current "elite" of UT players have just "inherited" that status undeserving... Just my $.02.

Maybe, but that's not what I said :)

Boom
15th Sep 2000, 03:01 PM
It was Neural!! I remember now. Ask him if he remembers that game. It stands out in my mind because it was like a 2 on 2, so we kept running into each other. He may remember it, because we were chatting alot. It was on Hydro, so I would have a lot of time to type questions for him by the time he got to my base again. I kept asking, "How come you are able to kill me when I try to telefrag you, but I can't kill you when you telefrag me. I know I'm doing something wrong but I just cant figure it out." He was actually very helpful. I think he told me he was shooting rockets at my feet, rather than directly at me when I was telerunning towards him. That would at least knock me off course. I tried to do that to him, but he still kept getting me. What it came down to was that he is just much better then me at telefragging, and at defending against the telefrag. One time I saw him teletraining at me and whipped out my tele to try to tele away from him like a scared little chicken. I wound up telefraggin HIM!! *LOL*. We both were cracking up. He typed in something to the effect of, "Well I guess you found one way to stop my telefragging." But clearly I just got lucky.

hal, I agree that it sounds weird to read a post like my last one in this thread. I like the way you put it, something like "a transportation device causing havok on a battlefield". It does sound wrong. But don't use me as a guide to whether the weapons are inbalanced. It may be true that the weapon is overpowered, or it may just be that I am particularly bad at defending against that particular weapon. Although lots of other people have made similar complaints, so my post may be a good example of the xloc problem. I really don't know. I am approaching it as a challenge and a skill that I need to master (defending against crazytrainers). But if Epic decides to address it in the 430 patch, I will certainly think they are justified in doing so.

[MUTTS]ImagoX
15th Sep 2000, 03:03 PM
... so what was the "leaving us less-than-l33t players to suddenly be the l33t players by default." quote all about then? My point was that I don't think there's any degradation of ability happening here, quite the opposit in fact. Sorry if I misunderstood you...

DividedSky
15th Sep 2000, 03:12 PM
Sorry if I was unclear ... the time frame I meant by "as UT ages" was the future, not the present. Let me try it again: "I wonder if, in the future (six months to a year from now), the l33t players will move on to something else leaving us less than l33t players to become the l33t players." It was not meant as a diss to the current l33t crop.

hal
15th Sep 2000, 03:16 PM
I think what he was saying was that the players now that are eilte may leave for new challenges. When they do, the second tier of players will by default, then be the elite players.

I don't think he meant it as a knock on the current skilled players. In fact, it was a bit self-derrogatory. I've played DividedSky and I can attest that the self-derision is somewhat unfounded.

DividedSky
15th Sep 2000, 03:18 PM
Pssst ... hal ... thanks, man, I'll wire you the $100 I promised you for saying that :)

Boom
15th Sep 2000, 03:25 PM
ImagoX

A little info on the telebind for ya.

The bind you are refering to is from cleaner's site and is very useful, but you can't teletrain well with it.

Press the button selects the xloc and fires it, releasing the button teleports you. It is very convenient and works pretty intuitively. Its a great bind. You hold down the key to throw your thingy, and when it is where you want to be, you simply let go.

BUT YOU CANT TELETRAIN WITH IT. If you start pressing it too fast, it stops working right. I think you have to hold down the button for 1/2 sec or so for a "release" to register. You can telerun with a nice rhythm with this bind, but you can't teletrain with it. Even I can teletrain faster manually than with the bind, and I can't teletrain all that fast manually.

There is another bind. I refer to it as the "crazytrain bind". I'm really not comfortable with posting it here, as it is very controversial. All I will say is that it involves an alias. I'm not saying anything bad about those who use it. I don't think its "cheating". But I know that lots of people frown upon its use and I don't want to be the dork who posted it on the PuF. Please don't ask me in chat, or privately either. It makes me feel really bad to say "no" to people, but I have made up my mind not to tell ANYONE about this thing. If it spread around and everyone started using it, I think it would be a negative thing for the UT scene. I haven't even shared it with my clanmates. I do not use this bind myself. Again, not because I think it is "cheating", I just don't feel comfortable using it. Also, its not necessary. Guys like Sonix from the z2 clan can teletrain just as fast manually as people who use this bind (I think Wiggum/Cookie's clan admits to using it. Nothing wrong with that, binds/aliases are specifically allowed on ladders and tourneys. I may be wrong about that, and I'm not trying to dis any clan, Cookie is a good guy :)). If I want to be a crazytrainer though, I prefer to go Sonix's way. Just my personal preference.

If any admin or moderator type reads this thread and thinks I may be putting out info here that may negatively effect the UT community, I give you permission to just delete this post. I don't want to start everyone on a quest to figure this "crazytrain bind" out, and I certainly don't want to hit a CTF server in 2 weeks and see everyone using it.

bodkins
15th Sep 2000, 10:20 PM
Hi,

Boy you guys let DividedSky off the hook pretty quick. I think I would have let him squirm for a few more pages. j/k.

Sometimes when you find the game is a little to easy, you get bored. Things like specialized binds that do a small part of the playing for you might make it just a little easier. And you might get bored. I'm still trying to get better with my mind and my fingers.

Hey DS, does that mean I have to wait until you leave to become elite -(. Actually, I care more about a well played teamgame than what anyone thinks of my skill. Honest. I have played in matches in which someone, sometimes me, who isn't that good manages to do something that makes a difference for the team. To me, that's the good stuff.

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.ocm

P.S.

DS, have you played D2 yet? I hear it's great.

Xayd
16th Sep 2000, 03:16 AM
Wow, great thread.

I'm a DM player, never really cared for CTF, so I guess strategies vary there. From a pure "killing the other guy" standpoint, I've improved greatly over the last few weeks (just started playing about three months ago since I got DSL).

It seems to progress from "knowing the maps" to "knowing the weapons" to "knowing the best routes of movement" to "knowing your opponent". Once you know all four, it becomes mental, which is my biggest hindrance at this point.

I doubt it was planned this way, but UT works out alot like Golf. If anyone here plays they know what I mean. It requires total concentration, at all times. If you slack off for an instant against a better player, you're dead.

I find that the first couple of games I play every day are average, with me ending up middle of the pack in a team game, then after four or five games, I start to end up at or near the top each match, then from that point my last few games end up with me having as many kills as everyone else in the game combined. I suppose some of that is taking a few matches to nail the techniques of your opponent, some of it just "getting in a groove".

One thing I've done to improve the end result quite a bit, is study the maps intensively. For each map, there's a route of movement and technique that's overly common. Once you've figured out what those tendencies are for other players, take an alternate route to surprise them. If I get first look at another player, he better be damn good to get me in that little skirmish that ensues. If I'm taking odd routes throughout the map, chances are I'll stumble across you before you stumble across me, therefore I have the advantage. Against equal players I'll win by a few, against lesser players I'll own. Against better players I can hang with them, and hopefully luck into a win here and there with this method.

I guess my rules of thumb are never get caught without three weapon options to choose from, never get snuck up on while standing still, and if you ride a lift or round a corner once, don't DARE ride or round it again within 10 seconds time.

BTW, I use number pad for navigation, arrowed keys as movement, 7/1 and 9/3 strafe, with plus key as jump and insert/home/page/end/del buttons as weapon binds. Mouse buttons for fire/alternate fire.

Xayd

DividedSky
16th Sep 2000, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by bodkins
\DS, have you played D2 yet? I hear it's great.


Nope, I only have time for one computer game obsession at a time :)

Temporary Account
16th Sep 2000, 05:40 PM
Tell me about it. I bought D2 (got it signed by the Devs and everything), played the first 5 scenes of act 1, then found I couldn't play it AND UT...so I uninstalled it :) It was fun and all...but not all that compelling...I have the Vampire game that I'm thinking about installing..but again..I just don't have the time!! :(

Survey_Says
13th Nov 2000, 03:43 PM
I don't know what the general consenus is on bringing up old threads... but I gotta say something. I read this whole thing and not one person mentioned anything about the boots when trying to justify why you need the dodge in your reportoire (sp?) :) of moves. Maybe that just shows how underutilized the boots are. Having the boots on is like being invincible. You can fall from great heights, you can make superhuman jumps. They are a huge advantage you have over your opponent, what can't the boots do? :D If you don't want to waste your boots and have the flag what do you do? Just run? I don't think so.

Dodging lets you make moves that aren't possible with a normal jump. Like the center lava pit in bollwerk. Or on lava giant, dodging from the center bridge to the main island in front of blue base. It lets you move faster down slopes if you have the flag. And it helps keep the snipers from predicting your movements.

If you want to be better at getting flag caps, you utilize the boots on every level that has them, you learn how to dodge, and you learn how to hammer jump. And above all you have to be patient, don't be predictable. Run around for a while and confuse the enemy, if you're lucky backup will arrive to run with you, or they will clear the defenders out of the bottlenecks where enemies usually hole up and wait for you. :)

KingKobra|PuF
13th Nov 2000, 05:04 PM
Okay i got the gmae in february, suckedd at it
by april i was getting good but i quit
now it's november and i started again in october, and i suck

{L}OutZ{JEDI}
13th Nov 2000, 06:42 PM
I have improved drastically I'd say.

I first started out on regular DM, never played CTF b4, until the demo of UT came out. I was hooked, I couldn't stop playing it.

I'd say the thing that helped me improve the most was the bots, I increased their level and pushed myself to beat them. Then I just went online and adapted to techniques ect.

I've never hit a plateau, I'm always getting better, I'm always looking for a challenge "aka ass woop'n".

You can probably ask quite a few people on here and they'll tell ya I don't mind getting my ass wooped, I say "Can we play another?"

Shai'tan thought I was crazy :D

The only way you can improve yourself is by facing someone better. I know that I will never become a top player for many reasons, and you gotta think to yourself, what kind of system/connection are they getting, and what do you have? You can only expect yourself to get as much as you pay for.

I myself am limited by my computer/connection, but that'll change very...very soon :) I'm finally upgrading this November 25th, and I'm throwing away this piece of **** Pentium 166mhz :P

AS for connection...Early next year baby!

I'm no wear near where I want to be, and I know when I got my computer and connection up there, I'll be improving drastically.

The main thing is never give up, and never cry about it, just fight and give it your all. You might not beat the person but you'll definately learn something. It's just part of a learning expierence :D

JuiceEggsMcKenna
13th Nov 2000, 11:24 PM
Yeah I love the boots. Jumpmatch is my favourite mutator :) But you know, I don't think I've ever actually tried once to dodge with the things on. Nice one Survey.

bodkins
13th Nov 2000, 11:35 PM
Damn Survey, that was supposed to be a secret.

I play defense, (I mean when I used to play), and I would rather little offensive tactics like that not be widely known :) . But now that it is out, you are right. One of my favorite things (as a defender) was to always grab our boots and waste them. Letting the attacker have a fresh pair of boots in your base is just madness.

Suvey_Says: Boots are good :( . Damn.

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com

OshadowO
14th Nov 2000, 01:23 AM
Agreed on the boots. I usually play defense on CTF cos I suck at it. One of the things I like to do, especially in Lava is whore the boots. If the base is empty and the boots are there I'll grab em.
In DM those babies are awesome. Levels like Deck 16 are where the boots give you an amazing advantage. Yet nobody uses them. This is a very good thread to resurrect IMO.

Survey_Says
14th Nov 2000, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by bodkins
Damn Survey, that was supposed to be a secret.

Suvey_Says: Boots are good :( . Damn.

I hope you aren't really mad at me :) The game has been out for a year now...

Maybe I was just in a giving mood since so many nice people have been showing me some neat tricks lately. ;)

There's always more to learn and there is no such thing as a plateau. :D Gotta be creative, I'm not called "sneaky" without good reason I suppose.

Survey_Says
14th Nov 2000, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by JuiceEggsMcKenna
Yeah I love the boots. Jumpmatch is my favourite mutator :) But you know, I don't think I've ever actually tried once to dodge with the things on. Nice one Survey.

ewww... I don't know about the jump match thing. That bugs the hell out of me. Especially on closed levels like Coret. :)

Thanks though, I like to help people out, make the game more enjoyable for them. I always answer questions or try to help if someone asks me while I am playing. (Except *one*) :D

bodkins
14th Nov 2000, 03:36 AM
Mad at you Survey? Hmmm. I'll think about it a while and see if I can think of anything to be mad about. :)

I found that the key to boots (as a defender) in CTF is to:

1) Never let the enemy have yours
2) If the flag carrier has boots, make him "burn" them in melee quickly. I hate it when boots aid in escape! Eg, guard the ground level entrances in lava. {DJ}LJ has a bad habit of NOT using the boots on the wall and opting for a ground level exit instead. Guard that entrance, and maybe you can make him burn the boots in melee for example. If you can do that, no flag carrier on earth is going to outrun a defender with a tloc :) .

Thanks

Jim
bodkins@prologic.com

_Zd_Ringi_
14th Nov 2000, 09:01 AM
Nice thread DS. I play UT for a few months now and haven't yet met the ceiling. When starting to play UT online I wondered if I could ever manage to stay alive for more then 5 seconds with all those godlike players around.

Now I play for a clan which is specialized in DOM and though I'm not a superb player, I can get along with the better players. But again, I don't see the ceiling yet, I'm still improving. But I notice very often that games differ so much. One night you get y'r ass kicked by every bastard you meet and go to sleep with a bad, bad feeling. Hope my wife's asleep otherwise we'lll end up in a fight :) Other nights you can "predict" what others are doing and you end up on top of the lists with rampages and dominatings all around.

Can't put my finger on it. Of course, state of mind, amount of sleep, etc. is important, but that's not it. And of course, fun is important, but who has fun when you suck?

I will also meet the ceiling and I hope I still will enjoy UT then as much as I do now! Coz I think that those nights when you suck and feel bad are as good a part of the love for UT as a good fight with your partner is a part of the relationship with her/him.

By the way, I dont't think hardware is that important. Maybe it is in the beginning, but you if you learn to use it, it makes no difference. I use A P350 and a 3 button mouse:
a=strafe left, s=back, d=strafe right, space=jump. mouse butons: alt-fire/fire/forward.
Makes forward/backward and jumping while strafing possible.

OshadowO
14th Nov 2000, 12:06 PM
ON the whole cieling issue, I've found that every time I've hit a cieling it's because I stopped paying attention to my game.
Example, I lulled in newbie land for a long time 6 months till I started paying attention to my gameplay. I picked out mistakes and made rapid improvements.
When I switched from lpb to hpb I noticed I sucked because I wasn't used to the pings. I payed attention to leading and stuff and got a to a semi decent level again. Lately I hit another plateau, and have only again started to pay attention to how I play.
I think the plateau is a point where you feel you're pretty damn good in temrs of knowing how things work and thus fail to notice your mistakes. Then when you realise it you start improving again. I have no idea what happens when you get to super l33t status though.

Chimley
14th Nov 2000, 12:47 PM
Pretty cool thread. I myself have suffered from the same problem. In fact, I hit my plateau mid-summer, and I haven't really improved since then. It becomes so disheartening. I played my games in the prescene of the "Elites", and was considered as such.

Then, I started a skid. I noticed that players I used to smack down with ease starting to take me down in greater numbers. Eventually, it dawned on me that it wasn't that I was sucking.. and my skill was dimishing.. it was that other players were getting BETTER. And the sad thing was... I wasn't.

After nurmerous verbal exchanges, forethought, and the like, I decided that there really isn't anything more I needed to accomplish with UT. I've been #1, played with the big boys, pissed people off.. ect :p

So, when I had my spat with DFB, I chose a clan where I could live out the rest of my UT Career in relative obscurity and just play the game. For me, my plateau destroyed my ego..and with that some joy of the game for me (it's no secret I was/am sometimes an egotistical bastard).

Here's a little hint I can give ya. Since most of you play CTF... change you're style to a different position. For the whole year I played UT, I was a defender.. in sYn, I'm offense :D. It's a whole new ball of wax and I found myself improving for the first time in months.. it basically resurrected the game for me..

oh.. and get them S3TC Textures!!! That'll make ya forget bout your plateaus!

DividedSky
14th Nov 2000, 01:40 PM
Interesting resurrection of this thread. Funny how two months ago when I started the thread, I was on a plateau, but I think I can safely say that I have improved since then. Then again, the word "improvement" is too powerful, especially in UT. There are so many different facets of the game that are "improveable" ... I think I've improved since then with my shock skills, my dodging, maybe my sniper skills ... but I definitely feel that right now my rocket ho abilities have been better. So ... improvement in some areas, not so much improvement in others.

And now I'm stressin' because I go on vacation for two weeks on Friday ... no UT for a while. Hope I can shake off the rust ... you know you like UT too much when you wonder if your vacation is too long because your UT abilities might erode. :)

One more thing to add to this ... and I mentioned this in the thread about how to become good at UT. I'll just copy and paste:

"Another point about becoming good: Half the battle is believing you can play. Self-confidence plays a huge role. Sometimes I go into a server, get killed a few times quickly, start thinking I totally suck and don't belong, and sure enough I really do end up sucking. Other times I kill a couple of big name players, start thinking I'm hot sh!t, and sure enough, I *am* hot sh!t after that Believe in yourself and what you know you can do :)"

Troll|PuF
14th Nov 2000, 01:47 PM
/me gives a big round of m0rety's clap to ChimChim

agreed. The LoL boys recently put me on Offense and it's totally changed my game. I found my DM skills finally came into play full force. Being Offense has also helped my Defense in that I notice myself getting way more flag returns, I'm better at getting out of the base and cutting off the carrier, and find myself playing a combination of mid and O assist naturally.

Boots are a must. I didn't really get the concept until recently, when I started working Offense. But even on Defense, boots can make the difference between getting the carrier and not getting him. Boots on Orbital, chasing the carrier, means you can follow him/her. I've actually started to do what I call the Troll Death From Below. I load rockets, jump up, and lauch right in the carrier's face who's on the ledge or walkway above me. Because you're jumping so high, it's very hard for them to pull off a combo or otherwise get you. And they don't expect you to come barrelling up from the depths of hell with jumpboots and a rocketlauncher. :p

hal
14th Nov 2000, 03:25 PM
/me recalls a certain fairy tale about a Troll living under a bridge and wouldn't let anyone pass. :)

5150
15th Nov 2000, 01:48 AM
That comment had me LMAO Hal!!!!!

JuiceEggsMcKenna
15th Nov 2000, 06:44 AM
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! :)

loserkid
15th Nov 2000, 10:06 PM
I think i've gotten worse and worse at regular weapons..

I almost exclusively play InstaGib now..

I have to pratice more I guess

Robo-Junkie
15th Nov 2000, 10:49 PM
I think I've improved enuff to where I'm as good as I'm gonna get while being a high pinger, though I suck at DM offline as well as on as I hate the whole idea of having to go searching for my weapons while having to worry about those armed with a RL.

Big giB
22nd Jan 2001, 03:36 AM
I think I'm on my plateau...for now. The last 2 months of playing, I havn't noticed any increase in my skill. I get whiped up good in the Roost as usual. I guess it's because I play more UnF lately.

Stosh
22nd Jan 2001, 07:59 AM
since then, I think I've improved quite abit. I joined a clan, which helped quite abit. I have really improved with the RL. (I rarely, if ever, kill my self with it)

I'm much better with the shock rifle. Making better decisions in general. I still pretty much get owned against the better players, but staying competetive much more often.

Playing 1on1 has helped alot. I'm kind of in a rut again, have not improved much at all recently. I'm sure I'll never be an elite player, but that doesn't matter. As long as I'm competetive and have fun. NEVER QUIT TRYING.

BTW, My Optical mouse has made a huge difference!!!

CrazyCougar
26th Jan 2001, 04:38 PM
I just read this entire thread... so I'll just bump it to the top for a bit.

I had a weird problem... I'll call it the killing spree plateau. I get 5 kills then hear killing spree and I'm lucky if I get another kill before getting toasted... LOL

I got my first monster kill lastnight. That relic of redemption comes in handy in a crowded room...

I also jumped a 6 rocket attack and killed the guy with my rockets.

One move I didn't see anyone mention here yet was the jump-turn. Lastnight I was against some tough competition and the guy was almost unstoppable. We were playing the Tempest and I had just grabbed the ripper and was on my way to the goo gun when this guy comes up behind me. I knew I wouldn't make it around the corner without eating his rockets so I did the jump-turn and fired my ripper at him... it was the luckiest headshot I've ever gotten.

I haven't hit that plateau yet myself but I've had growth spurts lately. I've been working on shock combo(which is how I found this thread) since lately I've been going up against a lot of guys that have been using that on me. My worst problem is my aim though. I've done that dance way to often just trying to get my shots into the right position.

Lastnight I had my butt handed to me repeatly but by the end of the night I was going one on one(plus 2 bots) against a guy that was getting me during regular DM a lot... and we ended that match with me killing him more than he got me so it pays to stickout those really tough matches. My NGstats really dived lastnight but my game improved a lot and I even managed to get a ramapage for the first time since I noticed my killing spree plateau hit(no relic involved in that one either).

Peregrine
26th Jan 2001, 06:03 PM
No one can beat me! Hehehehe

afkik
26th Jan 2001, 06:57 PM
what is everybodys favorite weapon to play online? I like the enforcer because it is accurate and can take somebody out, my second favorite is the ASMD cause if sombody is on a ledge, just blow em off the edge, and plus i like to use the 2nd fire and then shoot it with primary to clear the way if people are grouped up in a team game, and 3rd of all for long distances.......the rife (duh)

Krayz23
27th Jan 2001, 07:32 AM
i felt that my game had hit a plateau
for about 3 months my game didnt really improve much at all
that was until a clan mate of mine was tearing apart the public servers with the sniper rifle [CS]Subside
since then thats all ive basically been using in CTF matches
and damn it is so powerful
ive always found that being good at all weapons is so much more important then being a rl or shock whore
but i guess there r always little things to work on, for instance working on dodging and comboing at the same it
just things like that which would come in handy :)

{L}OutZ{JEDI}
28th Jan 2001, 03:22 PM
http://meisterplanet.com/images/misc/olderthandirted.png

Robo-Junkie
29th Jan 2001, 04:13 AM
While I may not be too hot with my pc & it's piece o' crap connection, I have a very good feeling that my mediocre fragging skills shall prove to be more than enough when UT DC hits!

*laughs like a mad man*

Moooohahahaha! Moohahaha! Moo.....

*realizes how stupid he sounds & runs*

:P

Scuzzbuster
29th Jan 2001, 04:40 AM
God can we all feel this pain or what? Ups and downs buddy, that's what its all about. Spend three nights trolling CTF servers and dominating the games, then all of the sudden one of these enforcer type power players just schools the hell out of you time after time. I marvel at the skill of some of these players.
To echo again, the sentiment, weapons diversification and map familiarity are key. I used to hate the Bio Rifle...just friggin hated the thing, but I made conscious effort to use it more and more and now I can be a real pain in your ass in ETERNAL CAVES. I'm still not hot at shock rifle, but good shock players can dominate, and I really respect that. Personally, I love high mouse sensitvity so I can turn faster and be more aware of enviornment, but if your using weapons like Shock and Sniper that require more accuracy, high mouse sensitivity can hurt you. I have hard time learning from game demos bcause what you see doesn't always automtically tell you what that player was doing at the time, though there are some tips you can pick up from them. Man, hang in there, those plateaus can seem to last forever, it spurts some times...go a couple of weeks and feel like you haven't improved or even digressed, then have real good couple of weeks when you feel yourslf improving. Most importantly, remember in team games, skill is only the SECOND most important factor. Even players with the most basic of skills can help the team. If you can take a frag for a flag carrier and give them four extra steps out of the base, you've helped the team. Body block for your carrier, engage the enemy as long as you can to distract them from the the carrier...you may get fragged, but you've taken that particular enemy out of the way for a a few seconds. In Deathmatch, that's pure combat skill, and you'll find that a good DM player isn't always the best CTF or even Assault player. A lot of DMers play too selfishly in CTF and end up scoring high but with their team losing. That's why I like team games better, it takes a little more smarts...engaging the enemy head on is not always the best way.

(TD|Kain)
30th Jan 2001, 10:03 PM
Yeah, I gotta post here too. And I gotta say I'm completely disillusioned with my gameplay. I was playing a game with my clanmates recently and got my ass kicked from here to New Mexico! (and going to New Mex. from the moon is a loooooong way, my friends). I just couldn't stop thinking, how would I be able to help at all when I was playing with my clan against others if I can't even play well against my clan? I've since cooled down, but that wasn't why I wrote this post (heh.. heh.. um). You know what I really hate? I hate when people change teams in the middle of a netgame and use the excuse "My team sucks!" This has happened to me more than once, and the switching person was on my team before he switched. Then my team, dubbed the "losers", got constantly ragged on by the other team. "Blue sucks!" And other such things. And that really pisses me off. What happened to good sportsmanship? It's bad enough that people win against me all the time (I am, after all, a relative newbie to UT), but then they shove it in my face and tell me to buzz off. And that is the type of thing that would cause me (and others, I'm sure) to stop playing UT for long periods of time, if I didn't love the game so much! :D But anyway.. just to put an end to my inane ramble.. I just had to get that off my chest.

Pillsbury Flow Boy
31st Jan 2001, 05:02 AM
I've watched and spectated some of the best players from all around, UTC, I've even watched some of you guys here (You may not have seen me, but I've been there :D) and I've noticed that even the best players, have there faults... like not strafing when they should've been... but one thing you have to remember is, no matter how good you are, there is always somebody better... cliffyb may be able to own you on a lot of maps... but there is that ONE map that he doesn't play as well... use these things to your advantage... I'm gonna compare this to Ultima Online... because I know it so well...

When I first began playing Ultima Online... a bunny was a threat to me... well I played... and I played... and day after day I got slowly better... starting moving up the food chain slowly moving up to killing ettins and ogres... and finally beating a red dragon... well the fact is... if you fight bunny's all day, what skill do you gain? none... you need to get out and fight that monster that you thought you couldn't kill... I though an ettin would eat me alive... when I finally decided to take one down, it took me 6 hits to kill it... the first time I ever fought one... I didn't do any damage to it...

I'm nowhere near the best player... but I'm good, I just need to practice with the rocket launcher a little more... I've been shockwhoring so much, I forgot how to work the other weapons :) A HPB shockwhore... hehe... and the godlike bots with max everything sucks... I can usually come in first place... but that's only on deck16, liandri, and curse... maybe agony... instagib is insanely difficult.... I have only tried it once... and after a miserable loss... I said never again... but that was a while ago....

Scuzzbuster
31st Jan 2001, 07:40 AM
Okay, maybe I just totally suck and have never really played the "Good" players online. I can usually hop into random severs and post good or top scores 80% of the time. But GODLIKE with everything setting max. I am always skeptical when people make this claim. I think this this is crap. I have no doubt that there are some players out there up for that type of challenge, but if even 50% come out to to say that that is no problem for you, I'll consider quitting the game all together.
Unless you pull the cheesy ****: Piston/Spawn camping, cheating/aimbot/cheat codes, exploiting map bugs or such, how and the hell? The bots with accuracy maxed are pretty much one shot one kill no matter how fast you can move. So when someone says something like "Oh, I'm a decent player, I can almost always beat Godlike bots with everything maxed..." I have to chuckle. Someone who can do that consistently will own my ass.
I'm the first to admit, I still get taken to school by some great players online, but not that damned often. Some one beating Godlike with all settings maxed shouldn't get fragged online, EVER...and apart from funbot (and other hack) cheaters--those players are few and far between in spite of all the accusations that go on all the time--I have rarerly if ever seen someone of that caliber playing, And I've logged thousands of hours in the pubs.
Anybody else feel this way?

CrazyCougar
31st Jan 2001, 12:12 PM
I've been spending more time lately specing that I used too. On some servers I spec because the guys that play they are just plain cool and great sports(I was specing one match where one guy was busy typing and the other guy came up and started dancing infront of him... I'm sure we were all laughing at it and sure enough the guy dancing ate some rockets but it was priceless). On the pubs I'll watch the guy that's dominating the game since I've either played them already or will play them eventually. What I've noticed is that there is definately something to be said for knowing a map.

For instance: I hated pressure. I'd get beaten so nailed by guys running around with rockets all the time. I eventually figured out what I was doing wrong... basically I was ignoring the Flak Cannon(didn't know it's exact location and couldn't get to it consistently). I also wasn't using the rocket launcher at the top effectively either. Once I realized that I noticed that there are times when it's safe to make the dash into the trap for the powerups too...

Once I started to use the map properly I was getting at least 7 kills per game with the flak just as many with the rockets and I was even getting the powerups more too.

Now I'll even join a server when Pressure is the current map instead of waiting it out... LOL

lunchblaze
31st Jan 2001, 12:25 PM
you know, i see this claim often too - and i have to doubt it.

1v1 - maybe - because a ridiculously skilled player could use his map/chokepoint knowlege combined with the bots predictability to a pretty decent advantage.

but if you're telling me that on liandri, with 5 or 6 godlike bots maxed accuracy, aggressive, jumpy, and strafing behaviour that you can beat loque with the mini gun, tammerlane with the sniper, another with the alt pulse - so on and so forth - then i'll just have to see it to be convinced.

i mean first of all, there is NO human that can work the hitscan weapons as well as a godlike maxxed out loque or tammerlane - none.

not to mention that in an ffa with these settings, the bots are just killing the hell out of each other faster than you can fire!

i don' t know, maybe it can be done - it just seems unlikely in a ffadm setting.

i did get a double kill one time against novice bots though - w000000t!

out.

Scuzzbuster
31st Jan 2001, 05:57 PM
Thanks for backing me up, Codpiece, I kept think that I was going to get home today and have 40 replys saying, WTF? You can 't beat maxed Godlike bots?!?! YOU must REALLY suck!

Pillsbury Flow Boy
31st Jan 2001, 07:45 PM
'usually' is the key word here... If I'm having a bad day... well then bottom of the list... but I've also changed all the bots skills and stuff around... so I don't have any bots running around with the chaingun and an AMP kicking my ass all the time... I've only got 3 of the top 8 with jumpy behaviour and one with sniper rifle as favorite... but I'm always camping the shieldbelt\redeemer hallway in Liandri... so it's quite easy once you get moving... there's health and the trouble thing... dodge back... launch the redeemer, and run around a corner... I've also played bots so much that I know the way they work... deck16 is really easy once you get the pathing down... just don't let them near the sniper rifle and it's ok :) Agony, you use the wide open area by the shock to your advantage... if your good with the shock... then kills should come easy... Any other map though and I get decimated... it's hilarious to see my score on peak... -10 at the end of the match and 50 death ;) I've only got a few really god maps... like liandri Deck16, and Agony... I'm pretty good at running the map on Curse... but it's pretty big to do that... It's just that when I get online... I have alot of troubles because I got so used to the predictability of bots, that it comes as a shock when somebody drops down to a lower level and then shock combos up at me... I just think "Hey... I didn't know you where pro... oh wait," It's just the fact that I lag so bad... and I wanna play UT, so I start up a game with a bunch of bots... and start playing... I'll say it again... I'm WAY not the best player... most people here could probably beat me... but it's just the fact that There's a couple maps that I play so much... that I got so used to knowing every nook and cranny, and knowing exactly how to jump to get everywhere... But only on a few maps... and don't ever catch me on Hyperblast... I suck on that map :)

afkik
31st Jan 2001, 08:16 PM
you know what, this thread is really really long...lets keep posting on it then!

Scuzzbuster
1st Feb 2001, 12:20 AM
Great Idea...lets keep posting to this long-assed thread til we crash the PuF servers!

Who's Game?

(Uhhh, Just Kidding PuF dudes)

Peregrine
1st Feb 2001, 09:35 AM
This thread has served us well.
Let us let it die in honor!

:)
:)
:)