Screw biodiesel

[TWD]

I'm all for saving the environment and all, but this is exactly the kind of crap I've been worried about. Everybody jumped on the bandwagon before we really looked at the downside. Now not only are carbon emissions going to go up, but there will be negative economic consequences as well.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602099&sid=anmEvzMVw3eA&refer=energy

[thewalkingman]

But I love the smell of french fries that our biodiesel fueled city buses give off.

[Latent Image]

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Problem solved :D

[Larkin]

I hate to sound rude, but DUH.

I would go more into it if I felt I wouldn't get all mad.

[SlayerDragon]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/Bandwagon.jpg

[Jacks:SmirkingRevenge]

Don't forget about the ethanol bandwagon and the way it's causing the price of grain to skyrocket as well as greatly reducing the world's overall supply.

Filling up 1 average sized vehicle's tank 1 time with ethanol uses enough corn to feed a single person for an entire year.

I think our farm animals eat that stuff too, and you know how much we love's us some beef n' chicken :rolleyes:

[N1ghtmare]

But we can grow more crops, we can't make more fuel. So what the hell are we going to use in 30 years when we run out of oil and gas?

[thewalkingman]

But we can grow more crops, we can't make more fuel. So what the hell are we going to use in 30 years when we run out of oil and gas?
Perpetual motion machines. The plans are locked up in Exxon's vault.

[Continuum]

But we can grow more crops, we can't make more fuel. So what the hell are we going to use in 300 years when we run out of oil and gas?

fixed

Also they have recently started manufacturing portable (semi trailer) units that use to flush or force air into old abandoned wells which allows them to get out something like 1/3 of what was already pumped from the wells. So we have like 100+ years worth of oil wells that only were pumped for 2/3 of what was there. Unfortunately they can't produce the trailers fast enough to keep up with the demand. They have also found that oil is still being produced underground even though it is a slow process. Plus there are all sorts of places that have more oil than the middle east it's just more costly to drill in remote locations or build the infrastructure needed to support it and since there isn't a shortage why bother spend the money.

[JohnDoe641]

fixed

Also they have recently started manufacturing portable (semi trailer) units that use to flush or force air into old abandoned wells which allows them to get out something like 1/3 of what was already pumped from the wells. So we have like 100+ years worth of oil wells that only were pumped for 2/3 of what was there. Unfortunately they can't produce the trailers fast enough to keep up with the demand. They have also found that oil is still being produced underground even though it is a slow process. Plus there are all sorts of places that have more oil than the middle east it's just more costly to drill in remote locations or build the infrastructure needed to support it and since there isn't a shortage why bother spend the money.
The problem is that we shouldn't still be dependent on something so privative and toxic as oil.

[dragonfliet]

A lot of this is bullcrap unfortunately. Biofuel crops are NOT the same as food crops, just as animal crops are different than food for human consumption. Yes, destroying the rainforest to make way for biofuel crops is a load of idiocy, but there are millions and millions of tons of food that is deliberately left to rot because there is no market for it. Stopping subsidies to farmer producing worthless crops and forcing them to switch to biofuel will simultaneously increase biofuel output, and decrease government spending on worthless subsidies.

We don't need an increase of crops, we need repurposing of existing crops and requirements that it be sustainable farming practices.

Obviously it is no panacea, but it is an effective stopgap to slow the depletion of oil reserves while we research and develop more effective alternative fuels.

~Jason

[Sir_Brizz]

Besides, biodiesel isn't completely about reducing emissions, it's about finding something to replace oil when it runs out in 20 years.

[Sirius]

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Problem solved :D

That is bad-a$$!

[Larkin]

Yawn......

It fails because of quantity, land size on the planet, production cost, and most importantly efficiently when making the product(uses gallons of natural gas to make one ounce of ethanol).

[Iron Archer]

There has not even been conclusive proof that CO2 causes global warming. One thing CO2 does do is aide in the plant life process of photosynthesis, converting solar energy into food, fiber and other types of biomass. The only thing CO2 does for sure is make Al Gore richer when people buy the farcical "carbon offset credits" from his company.

[thewalkingman]

Carbon dioxide is produced by all animals, plants, fungi and microorganisms during respiration and is used by plants during photosynthesis


Ban all CO2 producers!

[SlayerDragon]

A lot of this is bullcrap unfortunately. Biofuel crops are NOT the same as food crops, just as animal crops are different than food for human consumption.

Right, but corn farmers are just switching to a different kind of corn. It's more lucrative for them.

[16MentalTempest]

Stopping subsidies to farmer producing worthless crops and forcing them to switch to biofuel will simultaneously increase biofuel output, and decrease government spending on worthless subsidies.

I watched a show on TV about the 'disaster pay-off' subsidies and how much money taxpayers were gouged for to fill the wallets of a bunch of farmers in the Midwest claiming that the shrapnel from the shuttle explosion negatively affected their crops and livestock.

On top of that, a white diesel truck in front of us punched the gas and blew a plume of thick black smoke out the side. I swear I could hear the car vomiting. I could not help but laugh.

[Sine Deviance]

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Problem solved :D

I want one. Now.

[Big-Al]

Don't forget about the ethanol bandwagon and the way it's causing the price of grain to skyrocket as well as greatly reducing the world's overall supply.

Filling up 1 average sized vehicle's tank 1 time with ethanol uses enough corn to feed a single person for an entire year.

I think our farm animals eat that stuff too, and you know how much we love's us some beef n' chicken :rolleyes:

good old mouthwash :)

[Jackal]

I would rather use anything that gives decent HP and is cheap. I do not care what it does to the environment because I won't be here in 100 years.

[Jacks:SmirkingRevenge]

I would rather use anything that gives decent HP and is cheap. I do not care what it does to the environment because I won't be here in 100 years.

While I would normally love to agree with that mentality, it's that sort of thinking that got us where we are. Those in power are only concerned with their short term financial gain. If it doesn't make them money before the next election they won't do anything about it. If it's only going to cause a change for the future they don't care.

A few years ago I'd have been laughing along side you while I tossed my beer bottles on the side of the road, it now worries me a little to think what sort of condition we're leaving the planet in for our family/children.
:hmm:

[N1ghtmare]

There has not even been conclusive proof that CO2 causes global warming. One thing CO2 does do is aide in the plant life process of photosynthesis, converting solar energy into food, fiber and other types of biomass. The only thing CO2 does for sure is make Al Gore richer when people buy the farcical "carbon offset credits" from his company.

There might not be global warming, but we need to focus also on finding other sources of fuel because the current one is of limited supply! I don't want to screw over our children.

[Sir_Brizz]

Who cares about our kids? That's something that's going to come sooner rather than later, the best guess estimates say around 20 years till our current main source of energy is gone.

[N1ghtmare]

Um most of us will still be alive in 20 years.

[Haarg]

I think that's his point. This isn't something that will only effect our grandchildren or children. It will be happening much faster than that.

[Mister_Prophet]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/Mister_Prophet/back_future_mr_fusion.jpg

[TWD]

I think any estimate on how much oil is left in the world is utter BS. A few years ago they said there was 100 years left, now there's only 20. I high doubt these numbers include newer sources such as oil shale, new discoveries, and this stuff Continuum was talking about. Fact is we haven't discovered all the oil in the world. We will have moved on to other sources of energy long before we run out of oil. The issue as JD stated is not that we're going to run out, but that it's just toxic in general.

[hal]

In the future, we'll all have flying cars:
http://www.flyingmachines.org/ritchel03.jpg

[Sirius]

I think any estimate on how much oil is left in the world is utter BS.
QTF.
But, then again, who are we supposed to believe? It would be nice to have someone impartial, who doesn't have an agenda to just tell everyone the truth.

[phatcat]

Biodiesel is stupid
Ethanol is stupid

1. The world can barely sustain itself with food based on agricultural technology vs demand. Why would it make ****ing sense to trade fuel for food. Even if we made high yeild corn, we are not making an impact, and we are damaging the world econemy. Notice how gas prices have risen, and food too? No corn for feed for live stock, and less land for other crops that aren't corn. Bio Fuel is RETARDED.

2. A key issue is refinment of fuels too! Not just the absence of "easy" oil. even with the recent Brazil off-shore find, we need refineries. (its also my opinion that the US needs to tell the Eco-nuts to STFU and allow the constuction of new refineries).

3. You can't miracle it away. It will be a decade or more before hybrids become common, and even longer before we can use other alternatives like hydrogen fuel cells, unless...

4. The USA and other countries need to look more into nuke energy. France supplies itself, and other Europe countries with power with its plants. The USA is way behind in nuclear plant technology. And by utilizing new systems, hydrogen can be produced during the process, making fuel cells easy.


Biodiesel & Ethanol are destroying the world's agriculture industry & the world economy. Its also a fact that the production of biofuels is just as harmful if not more so than crude oil.

[TWD]

Biodiesel is stupid
Ethanol is stupid

1. The world can barely sustain itself with food based on agricultural technology vs demand. Why would it make ****ing sense to trade fuel for food. Even if we made high yeild corn, we are not making an impact, and we are damaging the world econemy. Notice how gas prices have risen, and food too? No corn for feed for live stock, and less land for other crops that aren't corn. Bio Fuel is RETARDED.

2. A key issue is refinment of fuels too! Not just the absence of "easy" oil. even with the recent Brazil off-shore find, we need refineries. (its also my opinion that the US needs to tell the Eco-nuts to STFU and allow the constuction of new refineries).

3. You can't miracle it away. It will be a decade or more before hybrids become common, and even longer before we can use other alternatives like hydrogen fuel cells, unless...

4. The USA and other countries need to look more into nuke energy. France supplies itself, and other Europe countries with power with its plants. The USA is way behind in nuclear plant technology. And by utilizing new systems, hydrogen can be produced during the process, making fuel cells easy.


Biodiesel & Ethanol are destroying the world's agriculture industry & the world economy. Its also a fact that the production of biofuels is just as harmful if not more so than crude oil.

I think you bring up some really good points. The reason gas is so expensive has almost nothing to do with limited supplies right now.

[Sir_Brizz]

Right now it has to do with speed of production which is governed by OLPEC. They SAY how much goes out.

[dragonfliet]

1) The world can sustain itself just fine. Certain parts of the world have starvation because of a number of things such as transportation costs, distribution issues (guy with guns being high on that list) and cost and corruption. The food is rotting. Yes, the price of corn has certainly risen, I'll give you that, but I would LOVE to see some actual figures linking any sort of agricultural decline because of biodiesel

2) Refineries aren't at full capacity by any means, but the amount of crude is not being increased.

3) The point of Biofuel isn't as a panacea, but a way to cut down on oil consumption while shifting subsidy money away from worthless crops into productive ones. It is a stop-gap measure, not a solution. By investing in biofuels now, we are more able to sustain ourselves until other methods become somewhat practical (who really thinks we're going to see Hydrogen cars in the next 10 years apart from the occasional oddity?)

4) While I agree that nuclear energy is a terrific source of energy, it has very little to do with oil. Most electricity in the US comes from Coal. Dirty, dirty coal.

The reason that gas is so expensive if that OPEC has no reason to increase oil output, but oil consumption in the world is increasing steadily, particularly in counties such as India and China. By using Biofuels, the amount of money exported is cut and that money is instead rerouted into the economy.

Biodiesel is certainly NOT "destroying the world's agricultural industry & the world economy." Here is a much more informed (http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/magazine/15-10/ff_plant)(if on the overly optimistic side) article on the subject.

~Jason

[Sine Deviance]

Correct me if I am wrong but are you guys actually suggesting that Nuclear fission would be a good fuel source for a car?

I'm sorry but I honestly see no way for them to make that safe or economical. Sure it would produce as much power as you'd ever need to push an electrical car with little to no emissions but it's a radioactive isotope. Instead of your car catching on fire and exploding it'd be catching on fire and unleashing a mini Chernobyl. Not to mention having to get new Uranium fuel rods every so often... and speaking of that, isn't Uranium already rare?

IMHO cars like the Tesla Roadster are the way to go. Keep the fission plant away from my house and let me plug it into my wall. Mind you, they don't all need to have supercar performance like the Tesla, but the general idea is where we need to be heading.

[Azura]

Looks are now turning to algue as an alternative source for biodiesel:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Biodiesel_from_Algae_Oil

Oil Yield

* Cultivating Algae for Liquid Fuel Production (http://oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm)

Gallons of Oil per Acre per Year
Corn . . . . . . . 15
Soybeans . . . .48
Safflower. . . . . 83
Sunflower . . . 102
Rapeseed. . . 127
Oil Palm . . . . 635
Micro Algae . .1850 [based on actual biomass yields]
Micro Algae . .5000-15000 [theoretical laboratory yield]

4. The USA and other countries need to look more into nuke energy. France supplies itself, and other Europe countries with power with its plants. The USA is way behind in nuclear plant technology. And by utilizing new systems, hydrogen can be produced during the process, making fuel cells easy.

Belgium has actually decided to close it's nuclear plants down, silly as it may seem.

France happens to be one of the countries that are the forefront when it comes to nuclear technology and there's a project to build the first fusion reactor (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power ). The downside to these new reactors is that an initial power source is needed to transform gas into plasma so I guess nuclear reactors won't be disappearing just yet. As for risks, a plasma leakage would instantly vaporize anything it touches.

[phatcat]

1) The world can sustain itself just fine. Certain parts of the world have starvation because of a number of things such as transportation costs, distribution issues (guy with guns being high on that list) and cost and corruption. The food is rotting. Yes, the price of corn has certainly risen, I'll give you that, but I would LOVE to see some actual figures linking any sort of agricultural decline because of biodiesel

Norman Borlaug (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1970/borlaug-bio.html), world renown agricultural scientist has said "we will have to double the world food supply by 2050." based on the info that 'the limited potential for land expansion for cultivation—only 17% of cultivable land produces 90% of the world's food crops'.[1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug)]
He also mentioned this durring an interview on the Skeptic TV show "Penn & Teller's Bull****". Its a resonable theory that if we are going to have issues with food production by 2050 (this is not an instant thing, but over time mind you) why should we put undue stress on the situation by making a poor attempt to grow fuel too.

2) Refineries aren't at full capacity by any means, but the amount of crude is not being increased.
It doesn't mater, refineries are the bottle neck in the system. They don't ship gasoline, they ship crude. If your destination can't convert it fast enough, your in trouble. I think the USA needs to desperately reevaluate oil refinery infrastructure.


3) The point of Biofuel isn't as a panacea, but a way to cut down on oil consumption while shifting subsidy money away from worthless crops into productive ones. It is a stop-gap measure, not a solution. By investing in biofuels now, we are more able to sustain ourselves until other methods become somewhat practical (who really thinks we're going to see Hydrogen cars in the next 10 years apart from the occasional oddity?)
Subsidies are a poor idea, it setting up farms into a "gold rush" to make fuel based crops, or shift crops that would have been sold as food as fuel instead. [2 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/09/foodanddrink.renewableenergy)
Biofuel has effected the amount of extra corn that used to go to help countries that can't produce enough food [3 (http://craigeisele.wordpress.com/2007/09/25/food-prices-buoyed-by-biofuel-affect-aid/)]


4) While I agree that nuclear energy is a terrific source of energy, it has very little to do with oil. Most electricity in the US comes from Coal. Dirty, dirty coal.

Which is exactly my point. I don't understand why you would bring up the obvious use of coal. As for Hydrogen from nuke power, you can read more here :
http://www.physorg.com/news8956.html

The reason that gas is so expensive if that OPEC has no reason to increase oil output, but oil consumption in the world is increasing steadily, particularly in counties such as India and China. By using Biofuels, the amount of money exported is cut and that money is instead rerouted into the economy.

That may be the case, but using Biofuels is like robing from peter to pay paul! And I have seen only harm come to the US economy because of Biofuels. Global food prices have gone up 40% in the last 9 months and Biofuels are a key culprit in this! [4 (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/mar2008/food-m12.shtml)]

Biodiesel is certainly NOT "destroying the world's agricultural industry & the world economy." Here is a much more informed (http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/magazine/15-10/ff_plant)(if on the overly optimistic side) article on the subject.
Future advances in agricultural scientist may provide more efficient bio to fuel exchanges, but based on what I have seen its harmful to the world economy, and at best is a band-aid for a artery wound. And at worst, its pushing the world into a downward economic spiral, that will crush the 1st world's consumer based economy and decimate the 3rd world's agricultural based.

[Balton]

first off the name "biodiesel" should be changed to something suiting. exploiting the bio tag to scam consumers :tdown:

[phatcat]

stupidiesel?

But bedsides that, why not Biodiesel?
Its a vegetable based diesel product.
Would you prefer "vegidiesel"?

or are you trying to be silly and say that all diesel was bio at some time. :rolleyes:

:D

[Lostsoul]

There is nothing wrong with biodiesel, it is the people that are stupid. You don't need to use corn, you can use weeds that grow where crops don't. You can use waste oil. The product it's self is fine, it is the government sticking there nose in it that is ****ing it up.

Government forcing it on us is bad, current diesel vehicles can not run well on it, they are not designed correctly for it. I am having a bio heating oil system installed myself, it will be great :)

[Azura]

stupidiesel?

How about vegetable oil ?

[Jackal]

How about vegetable oil ?

Well since 60% of people are retarded, they would go to the store and just pick up veggie oil used for cooking and try it.

[Azura]

I guess so, but it is possible to modify an engine to use that sort of oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_vegetable_oil

[Vers Vlees]

There is nothing wrong with biodiesel, it is the people that are stupid. You don't need to use corn, you can use weeds that grow where crops don't. You can use waste oil. The product it's self is fine, it is the government sticking there nose in it that is ****ing it up.

Government forcing it on us is bad, current diesel vehicles can not run well on it, they are not designed correctly for it. I am having a bio heating oil system installed myself, it will be great :)

w0rd hell you can even make it by crushing chicken bones and another animal waste. In Africa they have the Jatraapa nut which can even grow on barren lands. Did you know you can use a Liquidfied Petroleum Gas system to drive on Cow ****(even human poo) LPG is quite common around here. Algea was mentioned here.
However its the governement overhere which has crushed most of these projects. Partly because they want to have an excuse the ECO tax and the environmentalist lobby who simply hate progress and cars.

To the farming story:

There is enviromental EU leglislation that DEMANDS that farmland gets destroyed in favour of nature reserves. There is a certain percentage of land were nations have to do this, which is quite retarded in a small country like the Netherlands. Infact they want to create a 20 KM wide nature zone in my province straight through several farms. I mean for gods sake my province was created for farming. (I bet Cornelis Lely creator of my province is spinning in his grave now) Although the worst plan is actually blowing up dykes to flood farmland in the province Zeeland. Eventhough the national governement denied it now environmentalists *******s are bitching by the EU. Not to mention farmers over here are seen as scum by the environmental lobby and they are bound by extremely strict environmental leglislation.

Then there is unfair competition from the West towards 3rd world farmers. They cant export to the West because of various import barriers. And the West/EU dumps all of its agricultural surplusses in these 3rd world nations against a much lower price then the local farmers. Would you take up farming when you cant sell you products in your own lands because foreigners are dumping there surplusses against prices you cant compete with? (infact Ghana for example used to be a major poultry producer)

I bet the world can produce enough food for everyone its all the barriers, politics, whining environmentalist, lack of farm knowhow in the 3rd world that's preventing it.

[JaFO]

...
Biofuel has effected the amount of extra corn that used to go to help countries that can't produce enough food [3 (http://craigeisele.wordpress.com/2007/09/25/food-prices-buoyed-by-biofuel-affect-aid/)]
...
So what ?
Given that they receive tons of food for free every year they have lost the need to do so to begin with.
It's about time we stopped shipping 'expensive' food to them in order to sleep at night.
Those programs never were meant to help those countries.
In fact all they've done is make sure they are on permanent life-support and can't develop any further.
Add to this that because there's 'free food' the farmers in those countries can't even hope to compete.

IMHO it's about time the population on this planet decreased until it can maintain itself.
Using a resource that can't renew itself is beyond stupid.
Why wait thousands of years for plants to form oil/gas when you can use the same source with a shorter production-cycle ?

And as for nuclear power ... sure, as if one Tjernobyl wasn't bad enough.

[hal]

Between the new breakthroughs in solar using nano ink and the untapped possibilities of geothermal, we can stop trying to turn our food sources into fuel, which is ridiculously inefficient anyway.

[Azura]

It would perhaps be a good idea to avoid doing so with the likes of Monsanto around.

[shadow_dragon]

... I've always wanted a car that runs on steam... I'm not sure if i could afford to pay a boiler boy to feed the furnace though... Or get permission to drive it on the road... but that'd only be because i'd want to build it like Ash did in Armies of Darkness. ;) Cars are too easy to drive these days in my opinion.

[Adelheid]

Correct me if I am wrong but are you guys actually suggesting that Nuclear fission would be a good fuel source for a car?

I'm sorry but I honestly see no way for them to make that safe or economical. Sure it would produce as much power as you'd ever need to push an electrical car with little to no emissions but it's a radioactive isotope. Instead of your car catching on fire and exploding it'd be catching on fire and unleashing a mini Chernobyl. Not to mention having to get new Uranium fuel rods every so often... and speaking of that, isn't Uranium already rare?

IMHO cars like the Tesla Roadster are the way to go. Keep the fission plant away from my house and let me plug it into my wall. Mind you, they don't all need to have supercar performance like the Tesla, but the general idea is where we need to be heading.

Apparently fourth-generation reactors are different from older designs because they incorporate safety features that make meltdown impossible and produce less waste and use fuel not suitable for making weapons.

But until I've researched this I share your concerns.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor
At least one of these designs is too like the Chernobyl gas turbine design for my liking, but aside from that the theory seems sound... if they can make one small enough for a car.

[Vers Vlees]

... I've always wanted a car that runs on steam... I'm not sure if i could afford to pay a boiler boy to feed the furnace though... Or get permission to drive it on the road... but that'd only be because i'd want to build it like Ash did in Armies of Darkness. ;) Cars are too easy to drive these days in my opinion.

I was watching a car show on discovery channel. There was a guy who had a collection of classic cars from the early 20th century. He also had a steam powered car which ran quite efficient.

[Wulff]

You mean Jay Leno, Vers Vlees.

[dotnetbeast]

Um most of us will still be alive in 20 years.

Yea most of you all. I dont think I will live past another 5.

[Vers Vlees]

You mean Jay Leno, Vers Vlees.

Could be I kinda forgot but still that steam car was pretty pimp. IIRC you didnt have to feed it coal like in them steam trains.

[Adelheid]

Could be I kinda forgot but still that steam car was pretty pimp. IIRC you didnt have to feed it coal like in them steam trains.

No, camping gas apparently.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml==/motoring/2006/10/07/mfsteam07.xml&DCMP=EMC-mot_11102006
Surely they'd use a smaller driver?

[haslo]

I would rather use anything that gives decent HP and is cheap. I do not care what it does to the environment because I won't be here in 100 years.

You're obviously not planning to have kids.

That being said, the big issue with "Biodiesel" or whatever you call it seems to be that rainforests are chopped down for it. It adds to the grain distribution problems we already have worldwide, so it's definitely not worth going after as an alternative right now...

Nuclear energy has its own set of problems, most notably the fact that its waste doesn't degrade and just keeps being a risk for future generations for millenia to come. Not the kind of thing I'd want to leave behind. But there's plenty of other alternatives that will be ripe eventually ... water is working great here in Switzerland, wind, sun, there's plenty of alternatives available. Biodiesel might not be the right thing to pursue, but it's certainly a move into the right direction, albeit executed without the thought those things require.

But then, what is.

[Azura]

That being said, the big issue with "Biodiesel" or whatever you call it seems to be that rainforests are chopped down for it. It adds to the grain distribution problems we already have worldwide, so it's definitely not worth going after as an alternative right now...

Apparently some of the crops that have been taken into consideration lately can be grown in arid ground. I like the idea because you could kill two birds in one stone so to speak: produce a renewable energy source and tackle desertification.

[JaFO]

You're obviously not planning to have kids.

That being said, the big issue with "Biodiesel" or whatever you call it seems to be that rainforests are chopped down for it....
That's not because of biodiesel ... it's simply cheaper and easier to clear a forest for new land if you don't have access to all the high-tech chemicals we use to allow us to grow food every year on the same patch of land.
Oh ... and also add to this that we're still using quite a lot of the wood from those regions despite having more environmentally safe alternatives.


Apparently fourth-generation reactors are different from older designs because they incorporate safety features that make meltdown impossible and produce less waste and use fuel not suitable for making weapons.

I don't trust this for several reasons. The most important one being that such safety features are rarely if ever tested until it's too late.

And then procedure and the use of cheap materials has degraded the effect of them to such a degree that they aren't quite as effective as they could have been.

Heck ... just watch all those 'seconds from disaster'-features where they investigate the causes of accidents. You'll see that the 'Titanic'/'Chernobyl'-style disasters always are the result of multiple 'small' incidents that under 'normal' circumstances never caused any problems.

As a result I'd rather not have a nuclear plant in my backyard as the waste they produce is something we can't get rid of no matter how small amount it is. The best solution would probably involve shooting it into the sun, but even the results of that are unknown and untested (if you ignore the problem of a rocket exploding during or shortly after launch... )

[Vers Vlees]

No, camping gas apparently.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml==/motoring/2006/10/07/mfsteam07.xml&DCMP=EMC-mot_11102006 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml==/motoring/2006/10/07/mfsteam07.xml&DCMP=EMC-mot_11102006)
Surely they'd use a smaller driver?

I was referring to this type of steamcar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car) Read the part "Early 20th century steam cars" of the article.

btw they should really use a smaller driver. That woman is wider then the cockpit.

Also I think its idiotic that everyone is blaming the highfood prices on increased biofuel usage. (sure it does have a impact on the food prices)There are other reasons aswell. Like the upcoming middleclass in nations like India and China. Think about the high oilprices? You think those combines and tractors run on pixie dust? Fertilizer anyone? All these things contribute to the increased price of agricultural products. Atleast the high food prices made people realize that we kinda neglected agriculture.

[Azura]

Atleast the high food prices made people realize that we kinda neglected agriculture.

That's quite an understatement. Being a farmer in the western world used to be the most secure job out there. Now farmers with small exploitations practically rely on subsidisation and the job is far from popular with the newer generations. This trend is surreal as the population relies on them as a major food source. Perhaps someone could explain why this is happening.

[haslo]

That's not because of biodiesel ... it's simply cheaper and easier to clear a forest for new land if you don't have access to all the high-tech chemicals we use to allow us to grow food every year on the same patch of land.

Yeah, I entirely agree - which makes the whole thing a bit paradoxical. In the end, the big problems pointed out with Biodiesel aren't actually about Biodiesel itself, but about the way it's resources are grown, which is not a Biodiesel problem but an agricultural one. So while there are problems, they're not actually problems of Biodiesel, but of Biodiesel creators and essentially, problems of capitalism yet again (where externalities aren't part of any equation whatsoever by default, unless government intervenes, and as such the economy as a whole and particularly capitalistic profit optimization basically relies on the persistence of the delusional bubble that resources are unlimited and externalities don't matter).

Mankind will horribly fail eventually, the question is not if we do, but when we do.

Reminds me of that old joke: Two earths meet in space, one asks "how are you doing?" - "not that good, I've got a bad case of mankind" - "ah, don't worry, that'll pass quickly".

[Vers Vlees]

That's quite an understatement. Being a farmer in the western world used to be the most secure job out there. Now farmers with small exploitations practically rely on subsidisation and the job is far from popular with the newer generations. This trend is surreal as the population relies on them as a major food source. Perhaps someone could explain why this is happening.

Well several reasons have been mentioned for both the 1st and 3rd world farmers. From dumping, insane environmentalist laws(especially in the EU), protectionism, agricultural grants and politics.

I also get the impression that farmers (especially those in the bioindustry) are viewed as polluting scumbags by the public. (On the other hand biological farming is quite hot)

Then there is the insane leglislation concerning farming nowadays but I think this would mainly apply for the EU. The heavy workload and long hours(sure you have all the fancy farming machines) I think that most people have the impression that farming isnt financially rewarding. (I'm sure this might differ per nation/size of ones farm)

I"m sure there are more reasons people can think off.

[TWD]

On digg today. Ethanol results in worse mpg.

http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/593644.html

[GotBeer?]

Because of expansion, you also can't put as many gallons of ethanol in your tank as you can regular gas. So, fewer gallons carried at fewer mpg = stuck in the middle of nowhere with the deliverance theme playing in your head.

Subsidies have always held the ethanol here at $0.08 less per gallon than regular gas, but now that gap has jumped to $0.12. :mad:

[Vers Vlees]

I'ts true there is increase in fuel usage with bio ethanol (or E85 mixture of gas and ethanol). Here is another thing about E85 it eats away you fuel system lines. (IIRC its just like with biodiesel)
btw liquefied petroleum gas has a even worse mileage although you can compensate that with a 100 litre gas tank.

[TWD]

I was watching President Bush's little address yesterday, and he seemed to be very much into using ethanol supplements simply because it's a way for us at home to increase our gasoline supply.

I thought he had a really good comment when he talked about ethanol increasing the price of food. He said that we're paying farmers not to farm so that food prices are high enough for farmers to make money. If we want to lower food prices the answer is for the US to revise it's farming policy.

Ethanol still sucks though...

[Iron Archer]

If this guy's invention could be used/refined, we could all be putting salt water into our cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGg0ATfoBgo

[N1ghtmare]

Well theres two problems fixed

:tup: to that guy.

[GotBeer?]

Cures cancer and solves the energy crisis? This man has to die.

[Iron Archer]

dunno if he perfected the cancer part of it.

[Hanover_Fist]

As Azura has pointed out, biodiesel can be made from algae:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i82CXQX4yq4

it's very simple and people are already doing it.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/04/algae-farm-to-p.html

I'm on my way to using biodiesel myself, I'm proud to say i've made a liter of it in my garage using this method: http://www.kitchen-biodiesel.com/

I've been pricing old mercedes (diesels) for a while now....
I'll be using WVO (waste vegetable oil) as fuel. I just need to source some large quantities of Methanol (racing fuel).

By the way, the Diesel engine was DESIGNED to run on peanut (vegetable) oil.
The only real problem with pouring veggie oil in your diesel is that at low temperatures it gets fairly thick and needs to be warmed to run thru the fuel lines. Otherwise the engine runs fine on it. As far as it being clean..it's supposed to be much cleaner than regular diesel fuel.

pretty soon, everyone will have their own algae reactor in their backyard.....



http://www.energy-enviro.fi/images/biokingalgae_reactor_sharp_400.jpg

[ilkman]

Biodiesel, to me, seems to work quite well on a small scale; that scale being on an individual basis as Hanover demonstrates.

However, when it is required to feed billions of people in their various needs on a continuous, daily basis it just does not scale well and falls flat.

It'll only work if a more efficient means of creating the substance can be found. Algae seems very promising.

One fear I have though, as with solar and wind power, is that now huge plots of land will be required to 'farm' this stuff to make fuel and end up turning the land scape into an eyesore.

There are already a few places in CA that have hundreds of wind propellers up and its an ugly site to behold.

[GotBeer?]

Biodiesel, to me, seems to work quite well on a small scale; that scale being on an individual basis as Hanover demonstrates.

However, when it is required to feed billions of people in their various needs on a continuous, daily basis it just does not scale well and falls flat.

It'll only work if a more efficient means of creating the substance can be found. Algae seems very promising.

One fear I have though, as with solar and wind power, is that now huge plots of land will be required to 'farm' this stuff to make fuel and end up turning the land scape into an eyesore.

There are already a few places in CA that have hundreds of wind propellers up and its an ugly site to behold.I was always killing the stuff in my fishtank. I could have been fueling my car! And I don't even want to think about the amount I killed off in my little pool last year.

Imagine massive ponds filled with algae, or massive greenhouses if you go vertical, dotting the American southwest. Maybe combine the wind and algae farms so as to minimize the impact. But is it really any uglier than massive oil rigs?

[Hadmar]

So that's how humanity will die. No nukular suicide. No alien species test firing it's new and shiny Stellar Converter. No Captain Trips (New and improved version! Now with 1% more death!) laughing at our immune system. No mad scientist pushing the red button on the doomsday device. No zombie uprising.

No, we will die because of a failed attempt at producing biodiesel that will create a fraking huge mutated monster algae that covers the whole planet. Phew, man, that's good to know. I was worried about the other options for a moment or two.