WoW Teaches Wrong Lessons?

[Harlock]

When David Sirlin (http://www.sirlin.net) speaks, I listen. He is the founder of Sirlin.net, a website dedicated to game design, and the pursuit of the philosophy of "Playing to Win," which was recently re-published in expanded book form. He has also authored articles for several websites about game design and the theory of game design.

Sirlin's latest article appears on the Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com) website and deals with the life lessons that games can teach us, relating specifically to World of Warcraft. Just a quick gaming background on Sirlin: He is a tournament winning Street Fighter player. His insite comes mostly from the fighters genre. However, it does not matter what game background you come from, as most tournaments and games are very much the same at their core.

In the article, David shares his lessons learned with Street Fighter in direct comparison to lessons learned with World of Warcraft. Two very different games. It seems that while World of Warcraft shares more popularity than any other video game on the market, we can make a case that the lessons learned in most video games (self reliance, social interaction, strategy, and improvisation) are not the lessons learned in World of Warcraft. Infact, World of Warcraft is teaching the wrong lessons. Find the article HERE (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060222/sirlin_01.shtml) and read why.

Laugh as you may that a video game can teach a life lesson. As Sirlin points out, many games teach self reliance. The ability to problem solve. The ability the think on your feet. These are all things that are learned at the very core of a game, even if the visual shell is one of cartoons, violence, and other worldly beings.

[missPoopShoot]

Time invested should count for nothing in a fair game. It might take me 1 hour to learn a few nuances and gain a certain level of skill and you 1000 hours. The hours don't matter; only the knowledge and skill matter.

Laughable. World of Warcraft is a MMORPG, and as such is like the users 2nd life. Knowledge is gained through hours of hard work. WoW is fair in so far as it aims to replicate the dedication that learning a real life task takes, even though it is in fact removing any real life dedication from its most ardent players.

In an arcade game like SF, the idea that you can be as good after 5 minutes practice as someone who plays for 8 hours a day is possible. WoW does not subscribe to this ethos. In certain games, all that matters is excellent hand eye coordination and better reactions than who you play against. WoW is not this kind of game.

1. Investing a lot of time in something is worth more than actual skill. If you invest more time than someone else, you "deserve" rewards. People who invest less time "do not deserve" rewards. This is an absurd lesson that has no connection to anything I do in the real world. The user interface artist we have at work can create 10 times more value than an artist of average skill, even if the lesser artist works way, way more hours. The same is true of our star programmer. The very idea that time > skill is alien.

Oh really? How do you think that UI artist got so good at his job? Because he practiced and learned from thousands of hours doing his job. Just like you do in WoW and any other level-based game.

If nothing else, WoW teaches us that we can't be immediately successful in everything we do, but we can improve if we work hard and put the required amount of time in. Surely that's a great 'life message'?

[Gundato]

Call me old fashioned, but if you need your video games to teach you lessons as simple as this, you probably have a few things you need to work out.

[Harlock]

Call me old fashioned, but if you need your video games to teach you lessons as simple as this, you probably have a few things you need to work out.

Anything activity you do in your life will teach you something. If it did not, why would you want to be involved with it?

[BobCobb]

Activities teach us things if we want them too or not. WoW just teaches kiddies that they can succeed in life, without being as smart, successful, or sexy as George Clooney, which we all know is a lie.

Without a sharp wit and matching good looks you might as well die alone playing WoW.

Oh wait... :con:

[Olga]

I think this article raises a few minor good points, but I believe the notion that time is worthless is rubbish. You can't be born with the ability to do something extremely well, you have to actually practice over time.

The guy in the article says that people with level 60 have an unfair advantage over level 1's with the best skills ever. Well, how about the best level 60 player going against the worst level 60 player? The levels are only an unfair advantage if you aren't that level. In RPGs in general, the point is to get to a higher level. But underlying that level is also skill, and without it, your level is useless against someone else of similar level.

Something I might agree with is items, perhaps. Getting better loot for being in a team and just sort of sitting around, versus someone taking down a giant monster alone who works very hard, only to get horrible loot, is bad. Its worthless to do things alone, this is what WoW is teaching that is bad, in my opinion. You need to do things with everyone else in order to get all the phat loot. This is fine for extroverts, but as the article states, not introverts. You can get better either way if you do any work, but if you like to explore things alone is it worth it? This makes it a unsafe learning environment for introverts.

I feel that the writer of the article is correct in some ways of his analysis and perhaps misguided in others, but stating that its unhealthy no matter who plays it is going a bit far. It should be speaking to the introverts, not everyone else.

[namu]

Knowledge is gained through hours of hard work.
I disagree. Knowledge is gained in one instantaneous moment of enlightenment, the very moment you "get it". Some people require concentrating for hours listening to explanations to reach it. Some don't.

WoW is fair in so far as it aims to replicate the dedication that learning a real life task takes, even though it is in fact removing any real life dedication from its most ardent players.
WoW is not realistic in that every task in it is designed to be doable by everyone, but everyone has first to jump through hoops for hours and hours. Everyone has to spend the same amount of time doing the same thing to be considered to have a X% mastery of it, which is completely disconnected from reality. I know I'll never be a good comedian on par with the best, not even if I dedicate the rest of my life to it. Affirming the opposite is the big WoW Lie® (and borders on communism, too :D).

Oh really? How do you think that UI artist got so good at his job? Because he practiced and learned from thousands of hours doing his job. Just like you do in WoW and any other level-based game.
I disagree here again. Toiling for hours is not all that it takes. I'll quote a former helicopter piloting instructor: "Some people simply aren't made for [piloting helicopters]. Yet they try and try again and fail, and can't acknowledge the simple fact that no matter how long they try, they won't succeed. They're also being a danger for everyone else in the meantime."
This attitude has a name, it's called "delusion" ;)

If nothing else, WoW teaches us that we can't be immediately successful in everything we do, but we can improve if we work hard and put the required amount of time in. Surely that's a great 'life message'?
In the real life one can be successful at first try. Not in WoW. In the real life one can be good at what one does no matter how others are doing, not in WoW. In the real life one can reach one's own top skill level with training, in WoW you can only reach predetermined levels that are the same for everyone.

And that's also why I don't play WoW: I won't treadmill pointlessly for hours just to reach a state of having access to the game's content. Instead I play a MMOG where there is no levels, where everyone has access to the same tools and can immediately use them to the full extent of their own skill.

You can't be born with the ability to do something extremely well, you have to actually practice over time.
I disagree again, on both points. Not only we're all born with the capacity to do at least something very well, but we each take very different amounts of training to learn to do it better.
[Edit]I'll just give one very obvious and easy to understand example:
I sing in tune. Some people can't.

In essence, what BobCobb said.

[AriTheDog]

Anything activity you do in your life will teach you something. If it did not, why would you want to be involved with it?

Because MMORPGs are achievement simulators.

[Gundato]

I agree that most activities will teach you something, but if you don't know these lessons already, you need to rethink your priorities.

While a different kind of lesson, it is like saying "Playing proffessional football will teach you how to catch a ball." People SHOULD already have that knowledge and skill by the time they play.

[missPoopShoot]

[Edit]I'll just give one very obvious and easy to understand example:
I sing in tune. Some people can't.
Sorry, but you can be taught by a singing coach to sing in tune. Therefore, if you work at it, you become successful at it. Pretty invalid point really.

Edit: Maybe I'm just misinterpretting Sirlin's comments though. It seems like he thinks about life in terms of innate abilities, not the kind of skills which people learn (career skills) which means people can earn money and live life how they want to? Man, it was late when I posted last night anyway!

[Turret 49]

Sorry, but you can be taught by a singing coach to sing in tune. Therefore, if you work at it, you become successful at it. Pretty invalid point really.

What about people who are tone deaf?

[namu]

Some people are born tone-deaf and won't ever be able to sing in tune no matter what. On the other hand some people sing in tune since birth. This is why it's a good example IMO :) The other big point where WoW is disconnected from reality is that it never takes the same amount of work for each person to learn to do something.

[missPoopShoot]

The other big point where WoW is disconnected from reality is that it never takes the same amount of work for each person to learn to do something.
Very true. Although as a counter-point, those who concentrate on learning a skill will 'learn' it quicker than others. I realise the amount of work it takes is essentially the same, but by the same token there is plenty of scope in games like WoW to build earning methods so you can learn much quicker than anyone else.

Using natural talents such as communication (bartering, scrounging etc...) will mean you're better at the game than anyone. I've made lots of sales (ergo leading to me being able to by materials to level my skills quicker) simply by using my sense of humour - something I was born with personally, but that translates to my character.

I take your point completely though. I just feel this Sirlin guy makes many statements that you can shoot down without much thought.

The Wiki on tone-deaf indicates two types of the condition. One is medical, the other can be treated by training the person to sing.

A person who is tone deaf lacks relative pitch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_pitch), the ability to discriminate between notes. Thus one who is tone deaf is unable to accurately discriminate between musical notes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_note) and is thus also incapable of reproducing them. However, the particular quality of being tone deaf is descriptive of having difficulty or being unable to correctly hear relative differences between notes, while in common usage it refers to a person's inability to reproduce them accurately. The latter inability is most often caused by lack of musical training or education and not actual tone deafness.
Pretty interesting. :)

[shadow_dragon]

Some people are born tone-deaf and won't ever be able to sing in tune no matter what. On the other hand some people sing in tune since birth. This is why it's a good example IMO :) The other big point where WoW is disconnected from reality is that it never takes the same amount of work for each person to learn to do something.

The problem with your point Namu is that, yes, not everyone can learn everything and not everyone can be a helicopter pilot.
However in WoW, not everyone can be a helicopter pilot either. For example, If you play a warrior, then you can't use magic or fire a gun or a bow as well as a hunter. If you play a hunter you'll never be as good at melee as a warrior. Many character types can't use certain types fo weapon or armour at all, ever, no matter how long they play.
So as in life not everyone can be a helicopter pilot but in WoW, before your metaphorical birth you atleast get to choose whether you can fly a helicopter and if not, whether you migh be better at boats or cars or so. There are as many limits in WoW as in life.

From what i've read of the article the guy just seems to be a bit bitter that he can't play the game on his own. It is a MMORPG. This stands for Massively Multiplayer online role playing game. If, Blizzard made the game in such a way that you could do anything and everything on your own, then why make it multiplayer at all? The point in making better loot available to 5 man, 20 man or 40 man raids is that you get to play with other people and Blizzard are puposefuly forcing interaction with other players upon you for a blindingly obvious reason. If you wanted a single player game, then go get a single player game.

I'm a largely introverted person myself and play it, i rarely party up with people and solo 99% of my play time and though i'm not too keen on partying up i fully udnerstand the reasoning behind it.
If i could go solo and get gear as good as a 40 man raid could get then i would simply not raid or party up. I imagine a large amount of playes would be similar. In fairness as he states 40 so-so scientist might not have achieved what einstein did alone. However 40 men are more likely to defeat a giant monster or an army of monsters than a single man. It's such a strange comparison. Armies exist for a reasonin real life too, if a single talented soldier could do the job of 40 we wouldn't have armies in the real world.

As for the PvP... welll, it's not a perfect system but it's also a hard thing to monitor and rank up. it's main objective originally was to deter ganking with dishonour and toput a battleground mini game in as far as i believe. The ranking and rewards are an extra. I'm fairly sure medals are awarded to soldiers for time spent in service, certificates are given to blood donors for the amount of times they donated blood. If you invest more time you will have achieved more but if you were more skilled you could probably play less time and acquire the same reweards.
He himself says that the only way to be good at street fighter is to practice.

[Sir_Brizz]

I agree with namu, as should everyone else. :p

If you don't know why, get a girlfriend or get married. The typical woman is the perfect example of what Sirlin is talking about, because they are totally not wired for the kind of thought that most video games require. Ever pop in Halo and tried to enjoy it with the wife and after hours and hours of her whipping her characters view up and down and all over the place she gets frustrated and stomps off? I have. It's something that CAN be learned but it take LOADS of time to learn, which is exactly Sirlin's point. I pick up a game and spend time learning it and doing well at it, and it takes me a few short hours. My wife picks up even the most simple of games and spends dozens of hours just trying to learn how to move in it.

This is exactly the same with any other kind of task, INCLUDING SINGING. Some people cannot be trained to have perfect tone, it's just a fact. If you've ever given voice lessons you will know this is true. Not only are they tone deaf, they also have other problems which prevent them from holding a tone.

Computer Programming? Can anyone really learn it? No. I've seen some veritable "pro" programmers (i.e. people making a buttload more money than me) that couldn't program their way out of a paper bag. And this applies very heavily to the games industry. How do you think people that have been programming games for 15 years like it when a 17 year old kid is hired to do exactly what they have been doing but better?

[namu]

I agree with namu, as should everyone else. :p
I disagree !

[Harlock]

Blizzard responds to Sirlin in the most Imperialistic manner I know of. I'll let him explain:

I think Blizzard locked and later deleted all the threads on the worldofwarcraft.com forums that had to do with my article. I see censorhip is their solution (not censorship of me, but of all the players who wanted to talk about the topics I raised). Is it their right to delete these threads? Of course it is. It seems like a pretty juvenile thing to do though. Either the ideas have merit and should be discussed or they don't and should be attacked by the other players. Either way, censorship is a pretty unenlightened way of solving a problem. Chinese government.

I hope the problem is that I'm just a little blind and can't find any of the several threads that used to be in their general forum.

If any Blizzard representitives are out there, I'm asking you locked and deleted these threads.

--Sirlin

[SlayerDragon]

Blizzard responds to Sirlin in the most Imperialistic manner I know of. I'll let him explain:

Um. Ok. So, someone posts on the Blizzard forums something that is going to cause massive debate/flamewars among the users. Thread gets locked. Big f'ing deal. :lol: Censorship. Jesus Christ get over it... it's just a game.

[DesolationUSA]

What about people who are tone deaf?

not to seem mean. But thats like a person in a wheel chair trying out for the track team....

[KillStreak]

would his chair be electric with a high powered engine?

[DesolationUSA]

neither, hand powered. Otherwise, he wouldn't have the ratio of strength and stamina required for it to truely be considered fair.

[JaFO]

btw : isn't Streetfighter one of those games where you've got to perform certain tricks to unlock extra content ?
Doesn't that mean that even SF rewards people for time spent playing ...


The system overwhelming rewards time spent playing, rather than skill.

So ?
In real life the people that spent the most time maintaining their skill-levels will get the best rewards as well.


3. Group > Solo.

It's the same in real life. How many people really are succesful on their own ?
Even someone like Schumacher needs an entire team of skilled people to be the best F1-racer there is.
There are no practical 1-man succes-stories in real life.

And what about how there's no end-game content for solo-play ?
Sure, but if you really are into solo-games then there's a good chance you weren't playing to win anyway.


5) Guilds.

Yes ... in the real world you can be part of many communities.
But can you be a part of completely opposite communities ?
Nope, unless you want to be a double-agent ...
I doubt there is anyone that would think of combining being a Nazi and a jew at the same time without seriously compromising either membership.

Terms of service ...
These examples go on and on, but the basic idea here is that Blizzard treats the players like little children who need a babysitter.

I'd dare anyone to show me a public multi-player community that doesn't act like little children. As soon as communities outgrow 'just friends'-circles rules and their enforcement are required.

Also consider that the 'no deals with the enemy'-rule in there ensures that the world is divided into Alliance and Horde forever. Without such a rule one of them would (eventually) win and that would effectively kill the Warcraft-universe.

That's just as unlikely as players picking 'good' characters in the Streetfighter-universe and deciding they won't fight because they're friends ... I seriously doubt any Streetfighter-tournament would allow for such an 'experiment' ;)

[Fuzzle]

These examples go on and on, but the basic idea here is that Blizzard treats the players like little children who need a babysitter.

Isn't that pretty much because they *do* need a babysitter? Mmog communities contain more people who are looking to cheat, exploit and grief than any other genre as far as I've experienced. Only in mmogs have I received death threats and been stalked by people who have dug up my real name, what school I went to, and names of my friends who dont even play the damn game.

I also don't agree to his "rules are stupid, you should be allowed to do anything, it's the game's fault you can exploit" mentality. Because a bank left it's vault unlocked, does that make it perfectly ok to rob it? Obviously you'll get a much lower punishment than what you would if you had forced into it, but you'd hardly be "excused".

Mmogs are technically intricate games filled with bugs and exploits, I don't see anything wrong with enforcing a policy saying "You're not allowed to take advantage of exploits" as fixing them on the spot is impossible.
"Using the terrain to your advantage" is the most common one, I think it's a blatant exploit since it gives some classes that are otherwise meant to be balanced an astronomical advantage.
If the devs wanted you to be able to "trick" monsters into geometry traps, they would have designed the game accordingly. It's their game, their rules, and they're allowed to say "we never intended this to be possible, therefore we're labelling it as an exploit, should you find a loophole which allows you to do it".

Overall I find his article pretty subjective. Group > Solo comes with the game genre. Being "alone together" sounds like a niché thing that I've never really considered.
I enjoyed the elder scrolls series for it's in-depth solo experience, and I enjoyed my 2 years of Lineage 2 for it's social, political, and group coordination experience. I feel that demanding a mix of the two would just be asking for another game genre, while claiming one of them to be "flawed" is kinda barking up the wrong tree.

The Time=Power thing is just business. If you don't like the concept, you don't play a game where such a mentality is used. You play a game like street fighter, UT, or guild wars.
If you're making a game for someone who enjoys the concept, why wouldn't you emphasize on it, rewarding those who play 10 hours a day more than those who are only able to play 2 hours?

I dunno.. He's perfectly allowed to say "this game sucks, this and that would be better", but it just comes off as "omg doom and peril, this game is flawed!"

[Harlock]

btw : isn't Streetfighter one of those games where you've got to perform certain tricks to unlock extra content ?
Doesn't that mean that even SF rewards people for time spent playing ...

Actually, the Street Fighter Series is one of the only fighting game series on the market that allows you access to all the characters right from the start of the game. There is no time released content in Street Fighter. Virtua Fighter is the same.

[Gundato]

Really? I recall having to leave my PSX on overnight when I was playing one of the SF games (so I could unlock someone).

Might have been one of the Vs games though.

[Harlock]

Really? I recall having to leave my PSX on overnight when I was playing one of the SF games (so I could unlock someone).

Might have been one of the Vs games though.

Might be Street Fighter Alpha 3 for the PSX. The PSX was the ONLY version of the game (console or otherwise) that had an unlockable character, and that was Shadow... who was just a palletswap of Charlie/Nash with nothing extra. The other console versions and the arcade did not have Shadow.

As for the versus games, there were hidden characters. They were not time released though. Once you knew the combination to get the character, you could unlook him 1 hour into the machine being turned on or 1 year after the machine was turned on.

[Olga]

Also, Street Fighter is played on the same machine, so everyone technically has access to all the same characters.

[Harlock]

Also, Street Fighter is played on the same machine, so everyone technically has access to all the same characters.

No "technically" about it. They do have access to the same characters.

[JaFO]

Having access to a certain character doesn't matter as having *time* to access (and thus practice with) a certain character does.
You're just as unlikely to win a game from the writer of that article as you are able to win as a lvl 1 character against a lvl 60 one in WoW. Heck ... I'd wager that even if the lvl 60 player made started a fresh lvl 1 character he'd more than likely waste you before you could say "WTF!" ;)

[Sir_Brizz]

Well, in WoW there is alot less of the "masher"-factor.

In most games, someone can come in and "mash" the keys and do alright, maybe even win a couple (in fighting games).

In WoW if your character isn't as developed as someone else's, you're screwed.

[Scumgrief]

I learned to take off my clothes and dance on people's mailboxes for tips from playing WoW. I have yet to see any real rewards outside of my new-found social life with the local authorities.

[shadow_dragon]

Also. The rest bar actually encourages the player to take time not playing.

[hyrulian]

I learned to take off my clothes and dance on people's mailboxes for tips from playing WoW. I have yet to see any real rewards outside of my new-found social life with the local authorities.
:lol:

[BillyBadAss]

Best ****ing came evar!!! :)

[TossMonkey]

Well, in WoW there is alot less of the "masher"-factor.

In most games, someone can come in and "mash" the keys and do alright, maybe even win a couple (in fighting games).

In WoW if your character isn't as developed as someone else's, you're screwed.
For me the thrill isnt about getting that rank, it's knowing I can kick anyones ass with my blue armour while they're decked out in epic gear. Rogues kick butt. They're not overpowered, neither underpowered but they do take skill to be any good (anyone can spam SS and evis, but it takes skill to bring down 3 foes at once, which I do on a regular basis). And therein lies the reward for me, not getting phat epic loot, but seeing my name at the top of the leader board.

[BobCobb]

Those fiction books are teaching children the wrong things.

A underwater vessel that can explore the depths of the ocean? Lies.

Sending a manned rocket to the moon? Ludicrous.

Machines so small you can't even see them. Hah!

What ever happened to values and the good old way of teaching children? We need more corporal punishment and less orcs.

[BuzWeaver]

Play WoW, You're Hired!


In late 2004, Stephen Gillett was in the running for a choice job at Yahoo! - a senior management position in engineering. He was a strong contender. Gillett had been responsible for CNET's backend, and he had helped launch a number of successful startups. But he had an additional qualification his prospective employer wasn't aware of, one that gave him a decisive edge: He was one of the top guild masters in the online role-playing game World of Warcraft.




http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.04/learn.html