Lance Armstrong using drugs ??!!

[Azura]

http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/4801648?GT1=6773

W.T.F ?! This is a guy I was looking up to as a pure athelete. If this turns out to be true, it would catastrophic for Armstrong but also for the Tour de France also. I mean, if even a 7-time champion uses drugs, what's stopping other cyclists doing the same thing ? All I can add is **** drugs, **** money and **** the people who are turning sports into an absolute joke :mad:.

[Discord]

Oh, man. Normally I'm not into the whole sports- figure- as- role- model thing, but this looks at first glance to have enormous suck potential. I don't even want to know, TBFH.

[Rukee]

Sounds like the french don`t like an American coming and dominating their sport and are willing to do anything to tarnish the guys rep....
why are they just testing the `99 sample now....like we`re suppost to believe it hasn`t been tested 100 times already just after the race or what?? why was this missed at the time of the race?? are they that incompetent?

wasn`t back in 99 when he was being treated for cancer??

[Azura]

Yeah, all this business about testing samples dating back to 1999 sounds very odd indeed. And bringing this up when Armstrong has decided to retire is really bad taste. If EPO testing was perfected in 2001 then they should have announced their findings then.

[W0RF]

They are testing non-frozen "B" samples from years ago, and are not following any of the standard testing protocol that validate the test. Without a valid test of the "A" samples (which have since been destroyed), there is no official disciplinary action that can be taken against Armstrong. It's also worth noting that he won the tour not once, but seven times. IN A ROW. Even if, incomprehensibly, this were actually proven true, while it would be devestating for his reputation and would wipe out one of his tours, he still won six others, even after they began testing for the substance the paper claims was found in his old sample.

This report was published by a paper that doesn't have the best opinion of Lance to begin with:
Never to such an extent, probably, has the departure of a champion been welcomed with such widespread relief.
Incidentally, Armstrong has submitted himself to valid testing, probably more than any other athlete on record, and come up clean every. single. time. That's good enough for me.

[JaFO]

ah come on ... it's pretty obvious that that entire sport relies on the athletes walking a very thin line between medicine and drugs.
So I wouldn't be too suprised if Lance and others had more than the legal amount in their blood/urine at that time, simply because they couldn't even test for that drug ...

It's easy to submit for drug-testing when you know that any drugs in your system can't be found by testing at that time.

[GotBeer?]

L'Equipe reported that six urine samples provided by the cancer-surviving American during the 1999 Tour tested positive for the red blood cell-booster EPO. The drug, formally known as erythropoietin, was on the list of banned substances at the time, but there was no effective test to detect it.

The allegations surfaced six years later because EPO tests on the 1999 samples were carried out only last year - when scientists at a lab outside Paris used them for research to perfect EPO testing...Would suck if it were true, but I tend to believe Armstrong.

[Azura]

ah come on ... it's pretty obvious that that entire sport relies on the athletes walking a very thin line between medicine and drugs.
So I wouldn't be too suprised if Lance and others had more than the legal amount in their blood/urine at that time, simply because they couldn't even test for that drug ...

The sport itself requires that you perform without any artificial aids. Now, it is true that the pressure from sponsors is enormous and it isn't just about winning an event and competitors have to push themselves to the limits, making the use of drugs and other boosting medecine very tempting.

Note that there's also talk of a contract between Armstrong and a Texan firm involving large sums of money if he won a race. I can't remember the details but, apparently, Armstrong got $1 million in 2001, $3 million in 2002 & 2003 and was supposed to get $5 million in 2004 but didn't. It sounds like the firm in question didn't expect Armstrong to perform so well. I also heard that he'd have to pay them back $6 million if it's proved beyond doubt that he did take EPO.

[O.S.T]

W.T.F ?! This is a guy I was looking up to as a pure athelete.
really? I never did, because before he had cancer, he was very average, but after he beat cancer he took alot of different drugs and tadaaa! one of the best biker!
people presumed that the drug cocktail he took worked as doping
I'm not saying that it works like doping, but it might be true

[Rukee]

So you`re saying cancer treatment drugs are performance boosting drugs???
Well, yeah okay, only cause not dieing is better performance then dieing. :rolleyes:

[little darlin]

The fact that Armstrong has submitted to years and years of testing and not yielded a shread of evidence that he has used performance enhancing drugs matched with the fact that this newspaper has, if not a vendetta, at least a huge amount of financial and nationalistic interest in publishing this story makes me skeptical. Isn't it a little too convenient that these allegations surface now, after Armstrong has retired and there is no possible way to refute these past interpretations of results with his future performance because he won't be riding or consequently be tested ever again.

[Iron Archer]

What does everyone expect? It's the French.

[Clayeth]

They're testing the old samples now because they can find more of the enhancing drugs than they could before. If he can't trace this stuff back to his cancer treatment somehow (don't know, could be possible. That happened with one of the olympic swimmers a few years ago), then he at least has a huge black mark on his legacy.

[O.S.T]

So you`re saying cancer treatment drugs are performance boosting drugs???
Well, yeah okay, only cause not dieing is better performance then dieing. :rolleyes:
I never said it works that way(tbh I laughed, because after I wrote "I'm not saying that it works like doping", you wrote "So you`re saying..."), but it might be that some side effects could do the trick, who knows?

btw. is there a difference between than and then in the american? I know that there is one in the english, but recently I've noticed that americans don't use "than" :hmm:

[W0RF]

Not sure if your being sarcastic, so I'll play it straight.

"Than" is comparative, "this more than that".

"Then" is sequential/time-related. "If X, then Y" "He farted, then pooped" "I was a child then".

Crossing them up is grammatical laziness, nothing more.

[Agent_5]

So you`re saying cancer treatment drugs are performance boosting drugs???
Some are yes. IIRC, there's drugs to help combat the anemia you experience during treatment.

[missPoopShoot]

What does everyone expect? It's the French.
What does everyone expect? It's an American sportsman. Drug taking is not an option, it's essential!! Win! Win! Win! USA! USA! USA! ;)

[Clayeth]

Some are yes. IIRC, there's drugs to help combat the anemia you experience during treatment.
Yep. They do monitor both white and red blood cell counts, and use treatments to increase each if they get too low. Some people don't need them, others may only need them occasionally. But, the question is would he still have traces of it in his blood stream that long after his treatments were over if that was the only reason he had been taking them?

I don't know when his battles with cancer were over, but it would've have surely taken him over a year to get back in shape to win a race like that. And I find it hard to believe that the drug would still be in his system from cancer treatment.

[.altan]

Cancer doesn't always bring your system to a complete halt. I don't know anything about Lance Armstrong, but when my mother had thyroid cancer it took two months to have the majority of the treatment over, and the rest was just routine testing.

[Clayeth]

It all depends on the type and location too.

My dad had pancreatic cancer and did 2 chemos and 7 radiations per week for 9 months. He never had problems with his blood cell count, and would still get out and mow the yard through most of the treatments, but after the treatments his body just remained in that weakened state, never could take back off; so the cancer was able to take hold again. All in all he made it about a year after he was diagnosed.

There are a million different ways that the cancer and treatments can affect a person. And as far as I know they've never given any details about what his was like at all.

[Rukee]

^^Lance had testicular cancer.


What does everyone expect? It's an American sportsman. Drug taking is not an option, it's essential!! Win! Win! Win! USA! USA! USA! ;)

I think just the opposite is true, athlets are so afrade that anything they take will make the pee test go off that they are not willing to take anything that may jeopardise their legitimacy.

[missPoopShoot]

^^Lance had testicular cancer.




I think just the opposite is true, athlets are so afrade that anything they take will make the pee test go off that they are not willing to take anything that may jeopardise their legitimacy.

Check out the wink on the end of the sentence :D It's pretty much all sarcasm, just pee-taking DP's aping of the French.

Although... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/3757673.stm

[Iron Archer]

What does everyone expect? It's an American sportsman. Drug taking is not an option, it's essential!! Win! Win! Win! USA! USA! USA! ;)

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[Bean316]

THe whole bicycling "sport" is a big fat joke. I remember watching a bit on real sports about blood doping. It's basically where you infuse yourself with someone else's red blood cells to increase the oxygen in your system. Problem is...test doesn't work. Believe it or not, there is this crazy little phenomena where you retain some blood from your mother's womb or a possible twin in the womb. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but studies done have found this happens with a really strange regularity (some doctors claim up to half of all people have traces of blood different enough to be detected as blood doping). Anyways, the point is, they never bothered to listen to countless doctors and just banned the guy.

That and there is no hand-eye coordination. So boo.

[MÆST]

THe whole bicycling "sport" is a big fat joke. I remember watching a bit on real sports about blood doping. It's basically where you infuse yourself with someone else's red blood cells to increase the oxygen in your system. Problem is...test doesn't work. Believe it or not, there is this crazy little phenomena where you retain some blood from your mother's womb or a possible twin in the womb. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but studies done have found this happens with a really strange regularity (some doctors claim up to half of all people have traces of blood different enough to be detected as blood doping). Anyways, the point is, they never bothered to listen to countless doctors and just banned the guy.

That and there is no hand-eye coordination. So boo.
It's competitive fitness.

[W0RF]

Hand-eye coordination is hardly the line in the sand I would draw for sport/non-sport. Anybody who can spend three weeks riding 100+ miles per day up and down the mountains will not here any protests from me if he calls cycling a sport.

[Rukee]

The WB morning news just reported that the sample that was tested possitive was not Lance`s actual sample, but the French some how say they can link the sample to Lance somehow. :rolleyes:

[Zarkazm]

Believe it or not, there is this crazy little phenomena where you retain some blood from your mother's womb or a possible twin in the womb. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but studies done have found this happens with a really strange regularity (some doctors claim up to half of all people have traces of blood different enough to be detected as blood doping).
I find that hard to believe - as well as to google - as the lifespan of blood cells is short and they don't reproduce. So where would this blood come from, assuming you are talking about tests on adults?

PS: CS is teh 1337 sport, lots of hand-eye coordination and ****.

[Spacelord (GER)]

I presume Armestrong innocent (although I hate him for beating Jan Ulrich & Co since '97 :mad: )
But hey, it`s bicycling...he wouldn`t be the first not last biker who doped. :(

[Rukee]

Lance is the most tested guy on the planet and has never tested possitive, considering the conditions of facts presented, the timing and the source of the allegations, I tend to believe Lance myself.

[W0RF]

Lance is the most tested guy on the planet and has never tested possitive, considering the conditions of facts presented, the timing and the source of the allegations, I tend to believe Lance myself.
And several of the guys he bikes with/against HAVE tested positive in that same time span. One more reason benefit of the doubt goes to him: not only is he tested constantly, and has never failed, but others around him DID fail.
The WB morning news just reported that the sample that was tested possitive was not Lance`s actual sample, but the French some how say they can link the sample to Lance somehow.
The tests are assigned with some sort of ID number so as to keep the test results anonymous (unless of course you test positive and get your ass banninated, that's kind of hard to miss). The paper that ran the story apparently got hold of some of Lance's old medical records or something and matched up the medical ID numbers or something. But again, the test was of an old, unfrozen "B" sample with none of the regular protocol being observed. The Euros touting this as a "proven scientific fact" seem to have gone to the Tony Blair School of Mathematical Certainty.

[Bean316]

I find that hard to believe - as well as to google - as the lifespan of blood cells is short and they don't reproduce. So where would this blood come from, assuming you are talking about tests on adults?

PS: CS is teh 1337 sport, lots of hand-eye coordination and ****.

Here ya go buddy:
Wikipedia: Chimera Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28animal%29)

It's called being a chimera. I know it sounds crazy, but it happens. Now, confirmed cases are relatively low, but that is because not many people ever test for it. The actual test for it is extremely rare, so detecting the phenomena is consequently also rare. It also could be a reason why sometimes a body rejects an organ, even if it is a perfect match from the donor...because of the chimera effect. I remember catching a show on TLC about it too...some poor mom was in a court battle where she was about to lose her kids because their blood didn't sync up. But she was chimeric, but the court refused to believe it...

The bicyclist was Tyler Hamilton, and he got nailed for blood doping...with less than 5% foreign blood, which isn't even enough to make a difference. Scientists who know about blood doping talked about how ridiculous it would be to put that little blood in you. If you were really blood doping, you would be doing 10-15%.

But as I said before, people generally don't want to acknowledge this because it seems so crazy. Quite a few people stand to lose a lot if it is proven that being chimeric is something that occurs frequentlly...

Edit: Lance is still awesome, but it isn't just hand-eye. I forgot who mentioned it, but I didn't know before, but he doesn't participate in the other major bike events either. That's like a team in the NFL just skipping straight to the Super Bowl without playing other games. He's supremely awesome, but everyone will go back to not caring about bikes anymore in 5...4...3...2...

[W0RF]

I think it's more like golfers who only play in the majors, or racers who only race at Indy and Daytona. Although most of them can't afford to only golf/race a couple times a year since the stakes are their main source of income. I don't know how that works with cyclists.

On the other hand, half the people here would probably say, you don't sweat in golf, and racing is just drive fast, turn left, and so neither of those are sports either. :rolleyes:

[Bean316]

On the other hand, half the people here would probably say, you don't sweat in golf, and racing is just drive fast, turn left, and so neither of those are sports either. :rolleyes:

They aren't (except rally racing...just because). Not that I don't respect them, but they aren't. When the best driver is NASCAR brags about how out of shape he is, and golf...well...you pointed it out...you don't even sweat (and when Michelle Wie is on the brink of domination...). Just like a pro gamer...they are awesome and I admire them, but nobody is confusing them with an athelete.

[Azura]

On the other hand, half the people here would probably say, you don't sweat in golf, and racing is just drive fast, turn left, and so neither of those are sports either. :rolleyes:

No, I personally think those are sports although they involve limited use of the body. Sports car racing, especially F1, is a lot about reflexes. I also heard somewhere that the drivers heart beat goes up to something ridiculous like 200 bpm. As for golf, it's a bit like sharp shooting in the sense that you need to estimate distances and know how a projectile will behave. Sport can also be about training the mind to do things.

[W0RF]

They aren't (except rally racing...just because). Not that I don't respect them, but they aren't. When the best driver is NASCAR brags about how out of shape he is, and golf...well...you pointed it out...you don't even sweat (and when Michelle Wie is on the brink of domination...). Just like a pro gamer...they are awesome and I admire them, but nobody is confusing them with an athelete.
Both sports utilize intense amounts of hand-eye coordination. They fulfill the requirement that YOU PROVIDED.

[Hanover_Fist]

meh, it's the French....

First Recumbent bicycle blew away the "hour" speed record in 1933 held by a frenchman. 1934 the Recumbent bicycle was banned..........by the "UCI (Union Cycliste International)" (ie: The French)

It's not a "real bicycle"....

http://afchap.home.mindspring.com/BentHist.htm

[Balton]

meh, it's the French....

First Recumbent bicycle blew away the "hour" speed record in 1933 held by a frenchman. 1934 the Recumbent bicycle was banned..........by the "UCI (Union Cycliste International)" (ie: The French)

It's not a "real bicycle"....

http://afchap.home.mindspring.com/BentHist.htm

damn right they were :D

[Hanover_Fist]

damn right they were :D

:D

glad you're on my side.




if you read the article it wasn't really all the french's fault....

however

- i'm an avid cyclist
- i'm a rucumbent fan
- i'm an american
- i don't like the french

so i'll wildly sling mud around if it involves the french

[Bean316]

Both sports utilize intense amounts of hand-eye coordination. They fulfill the requirement that YOU PROVIDED.

I had a post here, but I really don't want to make this some endless dissection of posts, so check your PMs if you want W0RF. Otherwise, we can just settle on disagreeing.

[W0RF]

well, to sum up my PM, athletes are those who play sports, and sports are competitions based on physical prowess. I give credit to any sport that has at least some of those qualities, you discredit them if they seem to be lacking in one area or another. That's really all it comes down to. Others can agree or disagree as they see fit.

[Crazy_World]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/3757673.stm

This article says it all...if you have a good medic and the money, you are some years in front of any kind of testing...


Just check how many records on endurance sports fell since the apparition of EPO, amazing!

Concerning bike, according to someone I knew who left junior pro, there is a "story" about how to know if a biker is doped or not...the one who arrives in Paris at the end of the Tour de France are the doped, the other abandonned well before. Altough a bit exagerated, he thinks 90% of the guys finishing the Tour de France are doped beacuse this competition became much too hard.

BTW, Pantani was never tested positive on the Tour de France yet we know now he was doped...

I think we should think it otherwise: instead of baning substances, let's all athletes use them, sponsorized by drug corps. Furthermore, it would help medical research and the athletes will be much better monitored.