Mark Rein At EIEF

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hal

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HEXUS.gaming caught up with Epic VP Mark Rein at the Edinburgh Interactive Entertainment Festival to get his thoughts on a variety of subjects, including UE3, Unreal Tournament 2007, and a little bit of hardware.

Finally, we asked Mark his thoughts on the current gen GFX cards and what gamers would need to get the best from their games. Interestingly, Mark is a firm believer in playing a game the way a developer intended it to be played, with as many of the graphical options tuned on as possible. Mark feels that the competition gamers who knock all the detail setting off while playing on a 7800GT SLI rig are essentially cheating. His argument is that if a developer has made a game where textures or leaves work against a player spotting another, that’s just part of the game. Knocking down detail levels to make opposing players stand out more is just a form of cheating.
 

Retodon8

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Due to the fact this form of "cheating" is in-game without the use of any third party tools or exploiting bugs, this is always a sensitive subject to the people that turn off those details.
Maybe even moreso for the people that do play the game as intended and are thusly basically treated unfairly.

But yes, I'd have to agree with Mark; turning off advanced features is a last resort for people with inferior rigs, not a ways to try and get the upper hand without doing any hard work.
Usually, luckily the difference isn't that big, although it is annoying getting shot at by people who couldn't possibly have seen you in the thick undergrowth (or in plain sight, depending on the computer).
As Mark said, this kind of tactic is part of the game, and eventually hardware will advance so much, developers won't have to let people turn off features anymore.
Once that happens people that want bright, open levels can just play on bright, open levels.

Well, that's my 2 pence worth.
 
D

Duiveltje

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could be me but in ut2004 hiding is kinda pointless :p

big brother is watching you;)
 

Sir_Brizz

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Amen, Mark. Too bad the competetive community only wants to have to point and click everything.
 

Caravaggio

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I don't know if I'd say that, if anything, lowering the artistic aesthetic of any game elevates the strategic level more since you're not thinking in terms of your role in an immersive world but in terms of positioning and the layout of the map.

If they were so worried about it, how big of a hit would it have been to lower end rigs for them to have just not made mipmaps for foliage textures? Why let that particular detail box affect online games at all? Seems like rein might have just been beat a few times over the weekend after his bush-camping techniques failed him. /jk :p
 

JaFO

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Caravaggio said:
I don't know if I'd say that, if anything, lowering the artistic aesthetic of any game elevates the strategic level more since you're not thinking in terms of your role in an immersive world but in terms of positioning and the layout of the map.
...
It's sad how you turn an argument for having maximum graphics into one for having a minimum amount.

If strategic-positions were that important to you then you'd add as many possible variants as possible.
 

Caravaggio

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You're equating "varients" with graphics? What I'm saying is that it was really epic's fault for blurring the line between the pretty pieces that make up the atmosphere of the world and the actual geometry that changes gameplay. When considering strategy, isn't it always about boundaries and placement? Are there platoon leaders that really plan their assault based on which house has the best paint job or which bunker has the best color coordination of front yard floral arrangements?
 

UnrealGrrl

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i dont believe its cheating, but it is sad imnsho...
understandably, players who play only to win and are good at it want every advantage possible. but, if you have a machine thats capable of handling the game as it was designed to be played then i just think its sad that some ppl still claim to prefer to play that same game with no details etc. whats the point then? play pong...
i remember wallking into a fairly high level clan match at a lan one time and not even recognizing UT for a sec because the graphics were so toned down.
having the options available to play at any level of detail is great, ill just never get the desire to want to turn stuff off if you dont have to...
 

Majik

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I wouldn't call it cheating per se since cheating seems like such a harsh word for something that is directly available for all users via the options menu. However I would call it cheating if the user went to extra lengths to make enemies stand out more etc, like editing configuration files in ways that weren't supposed to be possible (whether or not the developer could've prevented it is irrelevant imo) or of course using 3rd party software.

But I'd agree it's cheap.
 

Bang_Doll

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Caravaggio said:
You're equating "varients" with graphics? What I'm saying is that it was really epic's fault for blurring the line between the pretty pieces that make up the atmosphere of the world and the actual geometry that changes gameplay. When considering strategy, isn't it always about boundaries and placement? Are there platoon leaders that really plan their assault based on which house has the best paint job or which bunker has the best color coordination of front yard floral arrangements?

Paint job? Well, after having played MGS3, I know some brick-camo-wearing platoon leaders would do just that >_>

When has subterfuge and keenness of eye not been a part of any type of warfare?
 

Retodon8

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My second reply...

Majik- said:
I wouldn't call it cheating per se since cheating seems like such a harsh word for something that is directly available for all users via the options menu.

We agree, it is a bit of a harsh word for what it's happening.
However, you can drop below the terrain to gain an unfair advantage in some levels without even leaving the game to open the menu.
In both cases it's pretty obvious the game isn't supposed to be played like that; I doubt many will disagree with me on that.
Having to do a relatively small amount of work to get the upper hand doesn't really make it any less cheating... rather the opposite if anything.
Getting good at the game should only happen through lots of practice, taking up lots of time instead, thinking up good strategies, team play, and to just use the default word: skill.

I'm not saying people that remove these things aren't any good, I realise they simply choose to play without them, but it's still not an even playing field that way anymore.
As I mentioned above, I'd much rather having different levels, so people that don't like foliage, flares, confusing textures, or whatever can choose to only play those, or deal with their disadvantage in other, more busy-looking maps.

Then again people with really fast hardware can turn up their resolutions, something I can't myself (delaying buying new stuff until UT2007 comes out), and gain a slight advantage there...
Until all hardware is so fast there are only slight differences, if any, and we reach a situation like different Xbox players competing, if that will even ever happen, we'll have to live with things like this.
 

edhe

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Most people adjust details down to get the framerates required for a good sync, this will naturally improve their aim.. It's not cheating, it's system configuration. I have a pretty good config for 2k4, xp3200+ and a 9800xt on a gig of pc3200, but i don't play max details because every so often (in the most important furballs) my FPS will drop, and that pisses me off :)

So he has a point, but then it's up to the mappers/designers to make sure their eye-candy isn't game-affecting, or that their 'world-detail' settings are considerate of this.
 

SkaarjMaster

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It's one thing to turn down your settings when you have a Ti4400 and quite another to do it when you have a 7800. Let's just say what Mark was talking about is just not good sportmanship.
 

hal

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I'm a foliage haxx0r, I confess. I have a reasonably fast PC (AMD 64 3200) but only a competent, but aging, video card (9700 PRO).

In my opinion, a game should first be able to run at an acceptable rate. To me, that is a steady 60+ fps with no dips. I can run deathmatch maps at that rate all day at nearly full detail, but when I play larger and more complicated CTF or ONS maps, then it's an absolute must. Having a pretty picture, but an unacceptable frame rate does not increase the enjoyment factor of my game. Forget about Assault, because those are fps killers anyway.

So, unless I want to spend time switching detail between maps (I do not), I am going to set the game to a level that allows me to play without feeling like I am taking part in my own personal slide-show.

Now, here's my personal request for UT2007... please include all of the detail setting options... but ALSO include four or five general settings (low, medium, high, highest)... OR BETTER YET - make user-configurable general settings. That way we can easily switch between them without having to make 7000 tweaks in order to play each gametype properly.

Then we can talk. :)
 

Sir_Brizz

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I have a relatively fast machine (p4 3ghzx, 1gb ram, 9800pro) and I play with just about everything maxed out. The lowest I ever hit on FPS is about 50, and I don't know how anyone can complain about 50+ all the time. Everyone says 60 is the magic number, but let's be honest, anything that is consistently over 35fps is not going to be noticeable choppy (with vSync enabled).

I play with details maxed because I'm a purist, I guess. I like to play the game the way it was meant to be played. I guess that's why I hate UTcomp and newnet so much.
 

edhe

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hal said:
Now, here's my personal request for UT2007... please include all of the detail setting options... but ALSO include four or five general settings (low, medium, high, highest)... OR BETTER YET - make user-configurable general settings. That way we can easily switch between them without having to make 7000 tweaks in order to play each gametype properly.

With background loading ..

Surely they should be able to enable an 'FPS' counter that uses the ingame statistic to balance out the texturing level, the physics level, the world detail level in accordance to the framerates that you're getting, in accordance the preference you've put in your settings.

IE you shove in 30 (as most people who still believe that 30 fps = all an eye can see will do) and you'll get around 30fps, with as many details as possible without it dropping below that (for long). It would adjust details levels accordingly. Same line, say you want 60 fps... 80 fps...

*that* would be handy :)

I believe that (at least the first) UT has a dynamic adjustment of world details for framerate in the .ini anyway. Can't see an issue about putting it into the GUI, making it a little more advanced in accordance to the engine.