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Wowbagger
20th Jul 2005, 05:13 AM
I cant help notice the complete absence of Epic people on the forums (even their own)
It didnt use to be like this.

Fansite Friday Look at Anet (Guild Wars (http://www.guildwars.com/)) they have had a Fansite Friday for almost a year now.
Fansites all over the world can ask questions and get them answered, EVERY Friday. This puts focus on even the smallest fansite if even for a short time.
See FF#51 Here (http://www.gw-nl.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=157) as an example.

Guild/Clan of the week As if that isnt enough they have a Guild of the week where they present a specific Guild (Clans for us)

Weekly Wallpaper: And they have a Wednesday Wallpaper where they mostly use some of their concept art to make a WP in all the proper sizes.

Now i dont ask for Epic to do all this for us Unreal fans but it does make you wonder why Epic that is so big now cant have a Community Relations Manager like Gaile from Anet.

Epic, see this as a hand stretched out from the community, come on in and join the party :)

edhe
20th Jul 2005, 05:46 AM
Fair point, other fair point is:

They're Busy Working. ;)

PR people should really be getting involved in such things but UT is the least of Epic's plans at the moment, they're off making (probable) fortunes selling UE3 to xbox360/sony ps3 devs.

Wowbagger
20th Jul 2005, 05:55 AM
Well they have always been busy working havent they? ;)
And im sure Anet has been busy working too and STILL had time to keep the fans WELL informed.

I get the feeling like you say that Epic is more interested in selling the engine.
Just look at their website, http://www.epicgames.com/index_2k4.html
Its all about the new licenses.

-AEnubis-
20th Jul 2005, 05:56 AM
It's a touchy subject that is totally different in this genre of gaming. Since they don't make constant updates to a world, there is a lot more "stress" on how each game release is precieved and handled.

They don't seem to like to say a whole lot, or be to forth coming in certain aspects of their community feedback, because as with any "art form" they want their work to be somewhat left up to interpretation. Take the "camping" issue for example, the idea of setting yourself up in some elevated area where you can hide and pick people off without them knowing where you are etc... The concept is mostly accepted as "not something very Unreal™," yet, it's not something Epic will come right out and say, because of how that will reflect to some of their fan base.

It's a crude, and quick example, but basically, the moral is, things are different in the FPS world. Devs have to be more open ears, and let their work speak for them, because people tend to mis-interpret words much easier then they do changes in a patch, or sequel.

Said kind of feedback would be nice, but I've seen how this community handles it before, and am at total peace with why it doesn't happen anymore.

Mr.Magnetichead
20th Jul 2005, 06:25 AM
I'll say what I said on the Epic boards.

Yeah, I mean **** it's not like they're working on two ****ing games at the same time or anything. Wowbagger you haven't changed. You're still an *******.

Wowbagger
20th Jul 2005, 07:36 AM
It's a touchy subject that is totally different in this genre of gaming. Since they don't make constant updates to a world, there is a lot more "stress" on how each game release is precieved and handled.

They don't seem to like to say a whole lot, or be to forth coming in certain aspects of their community feedback, because as with any "art form" they want their work to be somewhat left up to interpretation. Take the "camping" issue for example, the idea of setting yourself up in some elevated area where you can hide and pick people off without them knowing where you are etc... The concept is mostly accepted as "not something very Unreal™," yet, it's not something Epic will come right out and say, because of how that will reflect to some of their fan base.

It's a crude, and quick example, but basically, the moral is, things are different in the FPS world. Devs have to be more open ears, and let their work speak for them, because people tend to mis-interpret words much easier then they do changes in a patch, or sequel.

Said kind of feedback would be nice, but I've seen how this community handles it before, and am at total peace with why it doesn't happen anymore.

Yea that is true and this community HAS gone more "cold" over the years so i could understand why they dont interact so much with the community.
I do think its wrong to "give up" all together tho.
They do have a PR guy (is it still Mark Rein?) but i dont see him do much (or hes more towards the Licensees).

I honestly think an more open and positive atmosphere between the fans and the devs benefits the final product.

MuLuNGuS
20th Jul 2005, 07:36 AM
the best games in the world will be made without hype and without a yelling complaining community(take that in take this in, damn this is a must, **** no take that out of teh friggin' game)

Wowbagger
20th Jul 2005, 09:32 AM
the best games in the world will be made without hype and without a yelling complaining community(take that in take this in, damn this is a must, **** no take that out of teh friggin' game)

Sure, some of the whining is unbearable but a PR dude (or whatever) should be able to stand above the worst of it.
And sometimes when many complain it could be worth rethinking.

Looking at the two games im playing the most atm, BF2 and Guild Wars, theyre both great games but so different when it comes to feedback.

In BF2 the Demo had a, what can i say, unbelievable crappy, useless Server Browser (no Favorites, freezing, 90% of the servers showing 0 or 999ping etc)
There was ALOT of whining ;)
Then comes the retail with the EXACT same browser.

If you want to change your nick you have to make a new account with a different Email at gamespy. (alot of people like me probably thought this was for the Demo only)
Lets say this guy works his Medic character up to 25000 points or whatever and unlocks all the good weapons for the Medic. (ALOT of work)
And then a Clan wants him to join and to be able to wear the clantag he needs to make a new account under a new email LOSING all the points forcing him to start all over again.
It sounds like a joke but it isnt.

My point is that with a closer relationship between the Devs and the players this could have been prevented.

In Guild Wars the launch was flawless.
No big show stoppers, alot of quick small fixes tho.
I think it has had 2 downtimes with 10 minutes each since launch.
I think its the least troublesome game ive played.

Funny thing is that both are great fun to play :)

EL BOURIKO
20th Jul 2005, 10:56 AM
Fair point, other fair point is:

They're Busy Working. ;)

PR people should really be getting involved in such things but UT is the least of Epic's plans at the moment, they're off making (probable) fortunes selling UE3 to xbox360/sony ps3 devs.


In addition I want to believe that those who are not working hard must be on vacation at this time of the year...

jimb0
20th Jul 2005, 11:12 AM
1. They're busy doing their work.
2. The game is big. It's not like they can spare some time with their "fans" because the game is a niche game. Instead, they probably already get tons of emails from people, ranging from the people that say "OMG X SUCKS, DO IT LIKE Y" to the people that say "OMG X RULES, MAKE Y LIKE IT NOW".

In the end, I guess no developers would say it that way, but the community of AAA FPS titles sucks. All of them. It's too much effort for too little reward. Of course, there's the people who are worth a talk, people who can help, but let's face it, most of a game community is a bunch of smacktards who think they're know what's right and they just expect the developer to listen to them and do exactly as they're told.

Epic wise, I'd say they read the forums as usual. They probably lurk a lot. They just don't take part in many discussions because the signal to noise ratio is too high and it's not worth it, and when they do post something, people jump on them.

And PR people are probably more busy with journalists then with people who will pay $40 for the game. Seriously, and it couldn't be any different. IMO, if they answer Q&As from the modding community once in a while, it's all good. For the rest, they know what they're doing.

EL BOURIKO
20th Jul 2005, 11:54 AM
1. They're busy doing their work.
2. The game is big. It's not like they can spare some time with their "fans" because the game is a niche game. Instead, they probably already get tons of emails from people, ranging from the people that say "OMG X SUCKS, DO IT LIKE Y" to the people that say "OMG X RULES, MAKE Y LIKE IT NOW".

In the end, I guess no developers would say it that way, but the community of AAA FPS titles sucks. All of them. It's too much effort for too little reward. Of course, there's the people who are worth a talk, people who can help, but let's face it, most of a game community is a bunch of smacktards who think they're know what's right and they just expect the developer to listen to them and do exactly as they're told.

Epic wise, I'd say they read the forums as usual. They probably lurk a lot. They just don't take part in many discussions because the signal to noise ratio is too high and it's not worth it, and when they do post something, people jump on them.

And PR people are probably more busy with journalists then with people who will pay $40 for the game. Seriously, and it couldn't be any different. IMO, if they answer Q&As from the modding community once in a while, it's all good. For the rest, they know what they're doing.

it makes sense, I see in the different forums that many people have different opinions and meanings concerning the game (and we re all fan). In fact we do believe that in our most honnest opinions we all have the truth (Actually we all have our own truth for ourselves indeed).
So the best way to move forward for EPIC is surely to check the forum just in case some very good ideas or points are sent there, but they should not tell anything about their choices until the work is completed at about 50-75%.
Let s face it, whatever they do, it will always be some people to say: OMG that s damn good! and some other to say: FFS, that s damn ****!
My conclusion would be: let s trust Epic, they know how to handle their business and they have now a strong experience about what is working or not to come up with a new entertaining, challenging and good UT Opus.

JaFO
20th Jul 2005, 01:29 PM
Sure, some of the whining is unbearable but a PR dude (or whatever) should be able to stand above the worst of it.
And sometimes when many complain it could be worth rethinking.

Looking at the two games im playing the most atm, BF2 and Guild Wars, theyre both great games but so different when it comes to feedback.
...
My point is that with a closer relationship between the Devs and the players this could have been prevented.
...
(1) BF2 was released by EA (money first, shareholders second, customers *eh* we've got their money why don't they shut up)

(2) you didn't need community-feedback to detect those gigantic design-problems ... just a little look at what Gamespy itself had been offering.
I'd even would bet that the in-game browser was crippled as a result of their allegiance to Gamespy ... (ie : again money from Gamespy was more important than players)

(3)
Guildwars is a MMO such things require daily support just to be worth playing.
UT2k7 only needs some support at release (to cover bugs and major security issues). Anything else isn't even profitable for Epic except as a little karma for their next release in a few years time.

Selerox
20th Jul 2005, 01:42 PM
Anything else isn't even profitable for Epic except as a little karma for their next release in a few years time.

The way Epic's karma still stands after UT2003, they're coming back as dung beetles in their next lives ;)

SharKTanK
20th Jul 2005, 04:33 PM
From the posts I've seen, Gaile appears to come off as being very full of herself. But hey, I can't blame her, if I was a CRM I'd probably shove it in people's faces too ;)

What I think you can agree on is that Epic doesn't neglict it's community. They do however in some ways thrive off it though... Look at the people they hired and massive support they pulled through with the MSUC.

I was going to write a huge paragraph comparing GW to UT, but in short GW has a much more larger, participating community than UT. While it would be nice to have more output from Epic, do you not think we get enough as it is? It's certainly a lot more than most game companies do.

Wowbagger
20th Jul 2005, 06:44 PM
Yea i agree 100%
Like i said ive played BF2 now for a while and if you compare Dice/EA to Epic, Epic comes out as a CLEAR winner.
But looking at Dice/EA is also why i made this thread to begin with.
Somewhere they lost the touch with the ones actually playing their game and i would hate to see that happen to Epic too.
As an example weve gotten less Bonuspacks for every game thats been released and thats something weve always praised and thanked Epic for.
Epic cant take the customers for granted with games like BF2 and QuakeWars out there.

MSUC is great but maybe more for marketing and the gaming industry than us that bought the game.
Most of the (very impressive) mods out there still make the CTF servers seem crowded ;)

Edit: Yea maybe she (Gaile) is :) but you cant argue that shes done an amazing job with the community.

hal
20th Jul 2005, 07:08 PM
When talking about UT2004... you have to remember that the publisher requires patches and additional material to be tested before release. Given that Atari and Epic are no longer working together, I think you can figure out why there isn't a lot coming from Epic about that game.

As far as UT2007... I don't know of many developers who spend lots of time in forums talking about what they are doing with the game. I can assure you that they READ them. Besides... Epic hasn't even put together a UT2007 forum yet. :)

Wowbagger
20th Jul 2005, 07:30 PM
True it has been a bit special with the move to Midway etc.

Still, BU for an example is by far the best Unreal site out there but it could be so much more.
But it cant happen if Epic isnt interested. (isnt it a bit frustrating? ;))

Oh well,
This is Wow, Unreal Fanboy in disguise, signing out ;)

Discord
20th Jul 2005, 07:33 PM
I can assure you that they READ them.

Yep, that's true.

Said kind of feedback would be nice, but I've seen how this community handles it before, and am at total peace with why it doesn't happen anymore.

Read: Epic enjoys their work and wants their customers to enjoy it too, BUT... a lot of Epic's customers can be real asshats when they want to. I've seen DrSiN get called everything but a child of God over at INA over a not very long period of time. TBH if I had to do customer service for the UT crowd, I'd probably end up ripping out my own tonsils with a shrimp fork.

That's not everybody, mind you, but sadly most times the meanest ones are also the loudest.

Bullet10k
20th Jul 2005, 09:29 PM
It would be wiser to post such a thread over at INA, cuz Epic actually has accounts there.:eek:

hal
20th Jul 2005, 11:15 PM
It would be wiser to post such a thread over at INA, cuz Epic actually has accounts there.:eek:

Oh, they read all of them.

JaFO
21st Jul 2005, 04:22 AM
The games have become more complicated as well ... so that IMHO is another reason why Epic hasn't released as many bonuspacks for UT2kx compared to UT'99.
Besides at least one of the UT'99 bonuspacks was made by DE (Hall of giants & exploding ammo mutator ?).

As for Dice/EA vs Epic/Atari. I think the real problem is that EA always had control over everything done/released by DICE since they got together, while Epic managed to maintain control. Then again ... Epic was big enough to be able to do that, while DICE was a mere bump on the road for EA. As a result I find it not that suprising that EA's products tend to lack a real heart for the communities whether it is BF-series or The Sims.

-AEnubis-
21st Jul 2005, 06:25 AM
Really, the people who don't think Epic listens to the community are the people who see the community as the "majority" of people when they whine about something in particular. I've seen (in these forums) a lot of good ideas, the more intelligent and well thought out ones, get instated to game.

...and if you really wanna know more about why we don't hear directly from Epic guys much (although a lot of that is lost in forum trimming), do a search by user, for posts by them at INA. If CliffyB every posted anything in a thread, it became 8 pages long minimum, and he got quoted, and asked 30 questions, some repeats, all thinking they were gonna get "a reply directly from Cliffy." The funny thing was, most of the time the answer was implied by the statement, they just push to hear it spelled out for them, because they are simple. Or you get 8 million opinons of various garbage... bash here, kissass there... it's pretty rediculous.

Sir_Brizz
21st Jul 2005, 08:45 AM
Plus every time they make a statement or an announcement they get flamed out the butt for it. I can't believe that there are so many whiners and flamers remaining in this community.

Wowbagger
21st Jul 2005, 08:59 AM
Plus every time they make a statement or an announcement they get flamed out the butt for it. I can't believe that there are so many whiners and flamers remaining in this community.

Yes there are some that are VERY vocal but they ARE in minority and letting them win by saying what you just did is just wrong.

WE make the community.
If we let them behave like that we get the community we deserve.

And for the official forums it looks like the admins are pretty strict and if theyre not im sure Epic could solve that too ;)

Sir_Brizz
21st Jul 2005, 11:27 AM
Yes there are some that are VERY vocal but they ARE in minority and letting them win by saying what you just did is just wrong.

WE make the community.
If we let them behave like that we get the community we deserve.

And for the official forums it looks like the admins are pretty strict and if theyre not im sure Epic could solve that too ;)
The problem is, looking at the INA forums that would not appear to be the case. I realize that the people who are vocal are more than likely a minority of the playerbase for Unreal, however they are the only group that seems to be making any noise.

I'm not saying let the flamers win, I'm saying that if the community response to a coporation making a statement is general flaming and whining, then what is the point of making those announcements? Especially on a public forum where anyone can wrap their "moron-tentacles" around you?

IMO, Epic is playing it smart. They are releasing enough information to keep people drooling at every chance they get, but they are not releaseing so much information that people have a chance to whine and complain about the game already (and you can see by several of the threads even here on BU that even with the miniscule amount of information they have released, people still flame and whine).

When Epic first released Unreal they were VERY community focused. The Epic MegaBoards were a pretty hopping place for several months before Unreal was released all the way until the then monikered Epic FlameBoards were taken offline. I remember posting there for a long time trying to defend Epic, but it doesn't reallydo any good for you or the company if all people are going to do is flame, which, IMO, is the main reason that Epic hasn't hosted Message Boards on their own until very recently. The point is that if Epic were to go off what they perceived from their official forums, it would seem that alot of people buy their games to whine and complain and flame about them, not to play them. I know that isn't hardly true, but what's the point of going to the community for every little thing when that particular sector of the community doesn't really want it?

-AEnubis-
21st Jul 2005, 02:51 PM
Indeed. Actually, when I realized how most discussion there was handled, I made an account, not to plead to Epic, and post my ideas, but simply try to defend, and interpret theirs. Basically, they'd make a statement, people would reply with tons of idiocy, and I'd try to refute it, and tell them why they were idiots (without useing the word of course). I've gotten people to get themselves so many warning points there... it's great fun. I'll prolly go on another posting spree when more info, or a demo is released as well. Been pretty quiet lately though. That and I changed my email, and now can't access the boards...

Bullet10k
21st Jul 2005, 03:54 PM
Oh, they read all of them.
Yea I know but what I meant was that they have accounts there so they could actually POST on a thread like this.

hal
21st Jul 2005, 11:50 PM
Quite a few of them have accounts here too and can post should the mood strike them.

edhe
22nd Jul 2005, 03:53 AM
I personally would like to see them post in the ideas threads to say 'that's a nice idea that is'.

Selerox
22nd Jul 2005, 09:49 AM
I personally would like to see them post in the ideas threads to say 'that's a nice idea that is'.

Agreed. Anything that at least proves to the community that the devs are reading what people think. It'll make people far more confident in the dev team.

JaFO
23rd Jul 2005, 04:35 PM
I personally would like to see them post in the ideas threads to say 'that's a nice idea that is'.
I wouldn't want to see them do that.
Why ?
Because a lot of people would interpret that as something they would add to the game.
So when the game is released and the 'nice idea' isn't promised they'd start to whine about how Epic had broken promises which they didn't even make in the first place.

Nope. I'm glad that Epic doesn't announce anything except through their official press-releases.
I find that a lot of the previews have a way of making people believe that Epic is doing a lot of stuff that they probably aren't even going to do for real.

Remember when one of the ideas for UT2kx was that seemed to imply that they'd have recharge-stations as in Unreal 2 ???
I rest my case.

-AEnubis-
24th Jul 2005, 01:20 AM
Yeah, also, you gotta think about people wanting credit for their ideas...

Most times, even if they do think that, they are really good about applying an "idea" in a way that isn't too exagerated, or steep. Most people's ideas, even if in the right direction, are too drastic to be balanced anyways, so they have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Steyr
24th Jul 2005, 02:06 AM
The way Epic's karma still stands after UT2003, they're coming back as dung beetles in their next lives ;)
No, even worse, they'll work for EA! Muahahaha!

edhe
25th Jul 2005, 04:54 AM
So when the game is released and the 'nice idea' isn't promised they'd start to whine about how Epic had broken promises which they didn't even make in the first place..

So we have to fear living in a world where stupid small-minded people whine about something they wanted in the game and it isn't? What's new about that? How about they don't promise, then nobody can say they have promised. And if people don't understand that, they get their IPs banned for being idiots.

Sir_Brizz
25th Jul 2005, 11:01 AM
The demo should be out in about 2 more weeks.

Where's the promise? Yet this is the biggest joke about Mark Rein today.

edhe
25th Jul 2005, 11:12 AM
Thankfully it became a huge joke, and not a huge whine.

Classic threads abound.

Wowbagger
25th Jul 2005, 11:15 AM
Aw cmon so thats a reason NOT to have the PR dude setting aside some time for the community?
Im sure M. Rein is way thougher than that :) If not he can always have a look at his bankaccount ;)

One thing that is really irritating is that people when i made this thread seems to assume that all 60 peeps at Epic should stop what theyre doing and start reading all the forums.
They have a PR guy (im pretty sure about that) its just a matter of priorities.

Sir_Brizz
25th Jul 2005, 11:54 AM
Thankfully it became a huge joke, and not a huge whine.

Classic threads abound.
At the time it WAS a huge whine. It only subsided months after the retail game was released.

If an Epic PR guy popped in this forum and started saying stuff l;ike "That's a great idea!" etc, it would become yet ANOTHER big whine until months after the retail game is released. It's better to release information on your own schedule rather than just complementing people for theirs. It's not a matter of the PR people not being around, it's just that they don't make statements that could confuse their position on....well...anything.

Wowbagger
25th Jul 2005, 05:07 PM
Yea youre correct there they have to be careful with what they say (and some needs to be kept secret) but the closer we get to the release date the more "set in stone features there will be. (im sure theres some already at this stage)

And commenting or discussing "some" of them should not be a problem, sure theres always someone who will be angry because weaponX got thrown out but thats to be expected.
When that guy starts to abuse the devs, thats when the forum moderators should kick in. Warning, and if that doesnt work, ban.

I can see that some will never agree with me and i feel like im going in circles here so let me end this with some facts,

Fact, Epic wants our input.

Fact, It IS possible to have a working discussion between the devs and the community. ( see Anet and all the fansites as proof )

Edit: Theres been alot of focus on the devs posting in forums issue but my initial post had more suggestions than that.

fuegerstef
26th Jul 2005, 05:12 AM
The demo should be out in about 2 more weeks.

Where's the promise? Yet this is the biggest joke about Mark Rein today.


The funny thing is that Mark has said something like "Not before another two weeks" and not "IN two weeks". Ther former could mean 2 months, 2 years if you wanna stretch the statement to it's limits.
But the genral stupidity of some forumers made the rumors come up, that the demo will be out IN two weeks.


Some time later:

There was this chat where even Mark Rein said that the UT2004 demo will be out IN two weeks, making fun himself... ...and the demo for that game WAS out after two weeks.

Persefone
26th Jul 2005, 07:42 AM
Fact, It IS possible to have a working discussion between the devs and the community.


No, thatīs not possible. Look at this thread.

http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=161881

They are incinerating Epic cause a concept model.

edhe
26th Jul 2005, 08:20 AM
That's stupid people, again. :P

truegamer
26th Jul 2005, 08:29 AM
Some time later:

There was this chat where even Mark Rein said that the UT2004 demo will be out IN two weeks, making fun himself... ...and the demo for that game WAS out after two weeks.



I was actually there when this happened. Epic had a few fansites post to be on IRC for a special announcement, and after modding the channel and taking some questions about UT2k4 and the demo (users would send messages to various moderators to ask questions), Rein ended it by first telling us that there is an announcement, then making us wait like five minutes so he could call a few people to see if he can make the announcement...then he came back and said, "the demo will be out in two weeks."

They unmodded the channel right after Rein said it, and all hell broke loose. Then, the demo came out, I think, 12 days later.



No, that´s not possible. Look at this thread.

http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=161881

They are incinerating Epic cause a concept model.



I posted something about this in Epic's official forums. There's a few discussions going on over there where a couple of key people are regularly accusing Epic of ignoring the community and not caring about any feedback or input at all. They feel that the lack of posts (which is because of game development, by the way) is proof that Epic doesn't give a crap about any of us.

(Personally, I think that Epic isn't posting on their forums because they don't want the flamers to flame them when they post... that's what I'd do. I would have more important things to do than to contribute to flame wars.)

Sir_Brizz
26th Jul 2005, 08:41 AM
The funny thing is that Mark has said something like "Not before another two weeks" and not "IN two weeks". Ther former could mean 2 months, 2 years if you wanna stretch the statement to it's limits.
But the genral stupidity of some forumers made the rumors come up, that the demo will be out IN two weeks.


Some time later:

There was this chat where even Mark Rein said that the UT2004 demo will be out IN two weeks, making fun himself... ...and the demo for that game WAS out after two weeks.
Yah, I remember. It has lately become a joke, even to Epic themselves. But you're right, Rein usually never said that it would actually be released in two weeks. That's exactly why I think it's frivolous for them to communicate on a low level with the sommunity, which is what discussion on a forum is.

rhirud
27th Jul 2005, 04:47 AM
There is a serious problem where the gaming community just flood fora - making them unreadable and useless.

If epic just engage with the established, mature communities, the game might not be right for novices.

I think their current apporach of reading the fora, but not posting is the right one.

The only question that remains - which fora do they read?!

hal
27th Jul 2005, 06:48 AM
Oh, I'd guess at the very least the official forums, these, and probably a few peeks at some competitive forums (prounreal, etc). Most likely relative threads in Blue's, Shack, and maybe VE and /.

JaFO
28th Jul 2005, 11:58 AM
I guess they won't say which ones, because it will only attract even more wannabe-fanboys to a forum. Never mind the whining, when they find out that Epic 'stole' an idea that happened to be posted on one of them ...

// Fact : Epic wants our input
addendum : they read the forums and probably more websites than we'd even know ...

// Fact : Fact, It IS possible to have a working discussion between the devs and the community.
It's also possible to survive several gunshots. Most people aren't that lucky ...
I've seen the communities for a variety of games (IL2, Lo:mac, Sims, SH3, etc.).
You could practically count on flames and whining to begin as soon as one of the developers dared to post anything. It might help if you had absolutely draconic moderators, but that sort of thing tends to kill the community just as quickly.

Wowbagger
28th Jul 2005, 01:02 PM
No, thatīs not possible. Look at this thread.

http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=161881

They are incinerating Epic cause a concept model.

Have you even read that thread?
The only one thats "incinerating" Epic is the threadstarter the rest seems to be ok with it?

If thats the worst you could find we should consider us lucky ;)

Wowbagger
28th Jul 2005, 01:10 PM
God i hope they dont read the Prounreal forums (they probably do tho)
That must be the unfriendliest and elitist forum ive ever read.

I got depressed just reading the first page.

-----------------------------------------------

Theres way too many half glass empty people here :)
Ill try and skip the provocative topic next time and see if that helps the discussion.

Edit: reading some old link i found this QA that i really liked,

Gamecloud - The new game is likely due for release sometime in 2006. Why announce and show off plans for the game so early in development?

Jeff Morris - There’s a lot of excitement about UT2007 on the team and we wanted to start sharing that excitement with the fans. We also rely very much on the UT hardcore customers to make suggestions, spitball ideas, and in general get us thinking about what we’re planning from different perspectives. We need to tip our hand a little bit to get the most out of that feedback.

BITE_ME
28th Jul 2005, 10:16 PM
No one from Epic can post, do to the fact they are all painting my house for the next 2 months.

Persefone
4th Aug 2005, 07:49 AM
Jeff Morris - There’s a lot of excitement about UT2007 on the team and we wanted to start sharing that excitement with the fans. We also rely very much on the UT hardcore customers to make suggestions, spitball ideas, and in general get us thinking about what we’re planning from different perspectives. We need to tip our hand a little bit to get the most out of that feedback.
Thatīs only marketing, Wowbagger, only marketing. They are making a game for Battlefield fans not for Unreal fans.

Have you even read that thread?
The only one thats "incinerating" Epic is the threadstarter the rest seems to be ok with it?

If thats the worst you could find we should consider us lucky

Incinerating was a little bit too exaggerated, but that thread is a good example of how people can digress about nothing.
If Epic minions descend to this forum we will have infinite posts of digress, if not something more "incinerating".;)

edhe
4th Aug 2005, 08:11 AM
Any thread digresses after an average number of posts :)

Sir_Brizz
4th Aug 2005, 08:35 AM
Thatīs only marketing, Wowbagger, only marketing. They are making a game for Battlefield fans not for Unreal fans.
Battlefield fans are mostly realism fans, so why would they buy a sci-fi game?

Persefone
4th Aug 2005, 12:34 PM
Battlefield fans are mostly realism fans, so why would they buy a sci-fi game?
Good question, ask it to Epic.

-AEnubis-
4th Aug 2005, 01:25 PM
I think you should not think in such absolutes.

There is a demographic of people in each ones of those categories, people who like the vehicles thing, people who like the sci-fi thing, and people who like the realism thing, as well as many others. Epic knows very well the won't/can't appeal to the realism crowd, and if the demographic of people who like vehilces is large enough, they will lean towards that. They aren't making their game to appeal "to battlefield fans".

More then likely, the change in gameplay (conquest with vehiles, and large player counts) is a move towards something that new tech is allowing, in hopes to provide something to the community that hasn't been provided before. That is how you stay on top of a market, especially an entertainment market. It has nothing to do with stealing a fan base from a game in a different genre.

Persefone
4th Aug 2005, 05:01 PM
I think you should not think in such absolutes.

There is a demographic of people in each ones of those categories, people who like the vehicles thing, people who like the sci-fi thing, and people who like the realism thing, as well as many others. Epic knows very well the won't/can't appeal to the realism crowd, and if the demographic of people who like vehilces is large enough, they will lean towards that. They aren't making their game to appeal "to battlefield fans".

More then likely, the change in gameplay (conquest with vehiles, and large player counts) is a move towards something that new tech is allowing, in hopes to provide something to the community that hasn't been provided before. That is how you stay on top of a market, especially an entertainment market. It has nothing to do with stealing a fan base from a game in a different genre.
To make a gametype that requires large player counts with the actual online players base is to have faith, but that´s other thread.

Let´s star with UT2004.There are vehicles in UT2004 and that doesn´t appeal to many new players who buyed an UT title for first time, saw the game and now hate the game. For many veterans there were no problem with ONS, they can like it or not, but the fact UT2004 includes "classic" gametypes (DM,CTF,DD,BR,AS) don´t get UT2004 into something totaly different.

Let´s continue with UT2007 now. There is a new vehicle based gametype, Conquest, and there´s nothing wrong with that: new UT, new vehicle gametype. But Epic includes only DM and CTF as "classic" gametypes, like a candy for us, poor retards who still playing UT and don´t understand the future of FPS are the buggies.

UT is about dextery, reflexes, aim and strategy, UT2003 is a beta, UT2004 is a First Person Shoter and Double Jumper:) (a good one, but not better than UT) and, what´s UT2007?

Conquest (aka UT2007) is Epic´s hope to engage new customers, but in the way, Epic is looking down on some Unreal fans. I am not going to buy a game with only DM and CTF.

I admit I´m dogmatic, but there is no replacement for UT since 1999 (for me since 2001).:mad:

Israphel
4th Aug 2005, 05:58 PM
Actually Persefone I think it's the other way round.

I think that new players (lets not use "newbies" please...it's a crap insulting word) were more attracted UT2k4 for the vehicles and that without ONS, I'm not sure whether it would have gained many new people at all. UT has much more sophisticated movement and weapon balance than the average FPS and the learning curve is very steep and intimidating to new players....The gap between a new player and an experienced player in DM and CTF is huge. In ONS, the gap is narrower, and many players (like myself) bought UT2k4 because they liked ONS, and further down the line got into other gametypes like AS, TDM and CTF.

As for Epic dropping BR, DD and AS, well it is a shame, but hardly surprising...the online figures for all of them are very very low...and DD has always been broken from the start.
I think Epic believe that it's better to concentrate the community on the proven successful gametypes (DM, TDM, CTF and ONS) and introduce a new one that will engage new players (CON), rather than having the community split across so many different gametypes...especially when UT2kx has a lot fewer players now than it used to back in UT days.

Discord
4th Aug 2005, 08:16 PM
Epic includes only DM and CTF as "classic" gametypes, like a candy for us, poor retards who still playing UT and don´t understand the future of FPS are the buggies.

*butts in* (and here is as good as anywhere, really)

As far as "classic" gametypes go, I guess we ought to go back to the original which had 4 gametypes: DM (and variants), CTF, DOM and AS.

DOM was never popular to begin with (I thought it was fun, but I liked CTF way better) and DDOM killed it. AS wasn't really much on numbers either, though I say that cautiously because UT99 Assault had (and has) a vicious cult following who will likely cut my throat first chance they get if I say anything untoward -- and 2k4 AS went nowhere for multiple reasons.

But anyway. DM (and variants, lol) and CTF are pretty much the core of UT as it stands, so I don't think that cutting nonvehicular gametypes to those two is really cheating anybody.


Now, as to the other matter of the vehicles and the BF crowd. I just checked CSports.net's gametype stats for UT2k4, and ONS is still the most popular gametype -- which speaks for itself, I think. Now check this out:

Unique names in 31 days:
1. ONS -- 59,213
2. DM -- 52,935
3. CTF -- 43,008
4. TDM -- 41,610

Next highest is Assault at 21k and change, and it starts taking big steps down from there.

What surprised me was that ONS, while still most popular, isn't really blowing the other core gametypes away. It's got about 50% more players than TDM, but I expected a much wider margin than that. Good news for all, I'd say. :)

But anyway, there you go. That's the current "meat and potatoes" of the UT franchise right there. CTF, DM/TDM and ONS. I'd say ONS has earned its keep, wouldn't you? And if the next wacko, odd- man- out gametype happens to have vehicles in it, so what?


*edit* D'oh! Simulpost...

Persefone
5th Aug 2005, 06:53 AM
Actually Persefone I think it's the other way round.

I think that new players (lets not use "newbies" please...it's a crap insulting word) were more attracted UT2k4 for the vehicles and that without ONS, I'm not sure whether it would have gained many new people at all. UT has much more sophisticated movement and weapon balance than the average FPS and the learning curve is very steep and intimidating to new players....The gap between a new player and an experienced player in DM and CTF is huge. In ONS, the gap is narrower, and many players (like myself) bought UT2k4 because they liked ONS, and further down the line got into other gametypes like AS, TDM and CTF.

As for Epic dropping BR, DD and AS, well it is a shame, but hardly surprising...the online figures for all of them are very very low...and DD has always been broken from the start.
I think Epic believe that it's better to concentrate the community on the proven successful gametypes (DM, TDM, CTF and ONS) and introduce a new one that will engage new players (CON), rather than having the community split across so many different gametypes...especially when UT2kx has a lot fewer players now than it used to back in UT days.
Itīs true UT2K4īs vehicles attracted new players but they werenīt enough to retain then.
As far the movement I think here is the reason of UT2K4īs failure: the fast movement and the translocator get the learning curve of UT series into a smooth wall. Epic must attack this problem with a training system, something better than a tutorial, instead of cuttting off gametypes. The gameplay is which people hate because they donīt understand it



AS wasn't really much on numbers either, though I say that cautiously because UT99 Assault had (and has) a vicious cult following who will likely cut my throat first chance they get if I say anything untoward -- and 2k4 AS went nowhere for multiple reasons.
Beware of the Cult Discord, donīt allow them cut your eyeballs out.

But anyway. DM (and variants, lol) and CTF are pretty much the core of UT as it stands, so I don't think that cutting nonvehicular gametypes to those two is really cheating anybody.
I see the light behind your words, letīs make UT2007 a noobs game.


Now, as to the other matter of the vehicles and the BF crowd. I just checked CSports.net's gametype stats for UT2k4, and ONS is still the most popular gametype -- which speaks for itself, I think. Now check this out:
CSports means nothing to me.


I'd say ONS has earned its keep, wouldn't you?

The only good server for ONS is Titan, if only one server is a triumph, then yes, ONS is a hit


And if the next wacko, odd- man- out gametype happens to have vehicles in it, so what?

Like I said, thereīs only a decent server for ONS. I canīt wait to see the 12 slots Conquest servers.

Swerto
5th Aug 2005, 07:38 AM
EPIIIIIIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just 2 be the first 2 say it
HOLY DINGDONGPOPSICLES BATMAN EPIC'S FANS ARE PISSED!!!!

Sir_Brizz
5th Aug 2005, 08:16 AM
Itīs true UT2K4īs vehicles attracted new players but they werenīt enough to retain then.
As far the movement I think here is the reason of UT2K4īs failure: the fast movement and the translocator get the learning curve of UT series into a smooth wall. Epic must attack this problem with a training system, something better than a tutorial, instead of cuttting off gametypes. The gameplay is which people hate because they donīt understand it
The most played gametype is still ONS. It doesn't matter what you think of the game, ONS succeeded at attracting new players, especially since several of the community here on BuF are ONSers turned CTFers (or whatever gametype they like). If even one person does that, it's still a success.
I see the light behind your words, letīs make UT2007 a noobs game.
How does that make any sense compared with the words you quoted??? Discord was clearly saying that Epic keeping the only game modes that have a strong userbase makes sense. Epic isn't saying that these gametypes are only for noobs, I'm sorry if you feel that way but try joining a comp CTF server sometime and tell me everyone there is a bunch of noobs. I'll happily call you a liar, in that case.
CSports means nothing to me.
What does, then? The point of Discord even quoting CSports is to show that ONS is the most played (and thus "most popular") gametype in UT2004 still today. Why would Epic then drop the gametype for UT2007 and keep a bunch of gametypes that nobody plays any longer?
The only good server for ONS is Titan, if only one server is a triumph, then yes, ONS is a hit
I see we're being objective today..........

Obviously, you are not the be-all-and-end-all of what is a good server. There are plenty of players on plenty of servers out there, so they can't be as bad as this statement makes them seem.
Like I said, thereīs only a decent server for ONS. I canīt wait to see the 12 slots Conquest servers.
Neither can I. There will probably be more of them than ONS servers. And guess what, they will probably be the two most popular gametypes of UT2007.

shadow_dragon
5th Aug 2005, 08:19 AM
Persefone what is the point in posting about this if your just going to make up excuses so you can ignore what everyone else tells you?

Selerox
5th Aug 2005, 09:10 AM
Much as I personaly hate ONS (it's really not my kind of gametype), I'm definitly in agreement that ONS has become a key part of new-era UT. Theres no sense on dropping it when a lot of people like it. Theose that prefer the core, "orthodox" gametypes (DM/TDM/CTF) can still play them, and those who prefer the new, vehicle gametypes (ONS/CON) also have all the game they can handle.

No-one loses. Everyone gains. I can still happily go through the lifetime of the game without ever needing to bind a "use" key.

The argument that ONS shouldn't be included on the grounds that it's got vehicles in is Ludite to put it mildly. If it affacted the gameplay and mechanics of the other gametypes, then you'd have an argument. But it doesn't effect the orthodox gametypes in any way whatsoever, so I genuinly don't see the problem.

Persefone
5th Aug 2005, 09:27 AM
The most played gametype is still ONS. It doesn't matter what you think of the game, ONS succeeded at attracting new players, especially since several of the community here on BuF are ONSers turned CTFers (or whatever gametype they like). If even one person does that, it's still a success.
Yes, it is, but is UT2K4 the most played game? Maybe Epic should try to explain the game to new customers with a good training mode instead of merely entrust that work to vehicles attraction.

How does that make any sense compared with the words you quoted??? Discord was clearly saying that Epic keeping the only game modes that have a strong userbase makes sense. Epic isn't saying that these gametypes are only for noobs, I'm sorry if you feel that way but try joining a comp CTF server sometime and tell me everyone there is a bunch of noobs. I'll happily call you a liar, in that case.
They are the more played modes, but they are played by few, very few. I woudn´t call that a strong users base.


What does, then? The point of Discord even quoting CSports is to show that ONS is the most played (and thus "most popular") gametype in UT2004 still today. Why would Epic then drop the gametype for UT2007 and keep a bunch of gametypes that nobody plays any longer?
Did I write something about drop ONS?
Every time I connect the servers are isolated, where are all those players?


Obviously, you are not the be-all-and-end-all of what is a good server. There are plenty of players on plenty of servers out there, so they can't be as bad as this statement makes them seem.
Plenty of players on plenty of servers, well...

Neither can I. There will probably be more of them than ONS servers. And guess what, they will probably be the two most popular gametypes of UT2007.
If we can find more than ten players on then, they will be.

EDIT: comp CTF?

Israphel
5th Aug 2005, 10:08 AM
Persofone, it seems that you're shifting your argument as you go. Look at what you said originally:
There are vehicles in UT2004 and that doesnīt appeal to many new players who buyed an UT title for first time, saw the game and now hate the game.

Basically, as I said, the opposite is true. New players came in BECAUSE of ONS, and while no-one would ever claim that it retained the players that it had in the demo days, it has, as Brizz pointed out, retained some. What you miss is that it probably would never have got those players in the first place if ONS hadn't been present.
As for not retaining these new players, that can hardly be blamed on ONS. I agree with you that Epic should indeed incorporate far better turorials into the game, but I don't agree that keeping what can only be described as "marginal" gametypes would improve player numbers.

With this quote:
Epic includes only DM and CTF as "classic" gametypes, like a candy for us, poor retards who still playing UT and donīt understand the future of FPS are the buggies.

..you seem to be suggesting that Epic is betraying its hardcore fans by dropping BR, AS and DD....yet UT2k3 had all these gametypes and no vehicles and people stayed away from it.
Personally I think it's better if Epic focus on a few basic gametypes making sure that each one is polished to the best it can be. ONS for example has various gameplay issues that may have been sorted out for UT2k4 IF Epic hadn't been trying to make the game all things to all people.

Epic is looking down on some Unreal fans. I am not going to buy a game with only DM and CTF.
That of course is your perogative,but are you saying here that you would buy the game if it featured the DD, BR and AS?
Personally I think that if Epic were to include all those gametypes along with CON it would just be an unwieldy monster. All those gametypes need different maps (although you can maybe play BR and CTF on the same maps) and would just mean Epic's development team and level designers are spread even more thinly...better to concentrate on getting the core gametypes right....After all, the dropped gametypes are played exclusively by a tiny minority of players.

In your later posts though you seem to be merely stating that UT2k4 has a small player base and stating that the servers are mostly empty. It's pointless to argue stats and crap like that, but what are you suggesting? I agree that UT2k4 isn't hugely popular...but your posts don't offer any suggestions for increasing players other than a decent tutorial (good idea) and keeping marginal gamtypes (pointless).

Also, to state that there is only one good ONS server is to speak from ignorance. Titan is probably the only successful 32 player server, and it is regularly full and has a good teamplay attitude for a pub...I rarely play on it however as I don't much like 32 players and yet I never have problems finding a decent 16 -20 player game on various servers.

So what you are actually saying it seems is that UT2k4 has very few players and that Ut2k7 will pretty much be the same...I guess it's because you believe this:
there is no replacement for UT since 1999 (for me since 2001).:mad:

That's fine, I know there are a lot of people who prefer the original UT over its 2kx incarnations...but your reasons for it's decline don't make sense and you offer no suggestions about how Epic should attempt to recapture those UT players (other than keeping the marginal gametypes...which lets face it, didn't work with UT2k3 or 4, so there's no reason why it would for 2k7).

So what do you think Epic should do to capture players like yourself who love UT, and aren't interested in vehicular gametypes?

Persefone
5th Aug 2005, 12:08 PM
I´d like to compare UT with chess. Chess has got the quality that makes good games: is easy to learn and hard to master. UT is hard to master but it isn´t easy to learn, you are throwed to the arena without an idea on what to do.
When a new player starts UT2007 for first time, he will need a guide throught its techniques and rules, the weapons usage need to be explained, how to move and when move, etc.
Regardless vehicles quality, they will attract new players again, but if they are going to be massacred for people jumping around without knowing why, they will leave the game once more.
I´m not blaming Epic cause ONS and CON. Epic is who blame traditional gameplay when they never tried to get their game more accessible, and I blame them for this.

If you are interested in what Epic has to do for capture again an UT maniac like me, here is: Don´t fix what it isn´t broken, recover UT intensity in DM and CTF, keep the double jump if you want, but I want to fight in short and middle range not in middle-long range. Bring back pick-ups, the action is faster and furious trying to dominate the arena, adrenaline ruins this. Don´t make the maps too big, I don´t want run, I want fight. Don´t make on foot players in Conquest useless, do you remember AS-Overlord? I want that feeling. If this is done Conquest can replace AS for me.

I know Bombing Run will be no more, but I´d like to say is the best UT2004 has, if it isn´t played is because people don´t know how to play it.

[EDIT]: Bring back fun.

NeoNite
5th Aug 2005, 12:20 PM
UT is about dextery, reflexes, aim and strategy, UT2003 is a beta, UT2004 is a First Person Shoter and Double Jumper:) (a good one, but not better than UT) and, whatīs UT2007?


I admit Iīm dogmatic, but there is no replacement for UT since 1999 (for me since 2001).:mad:

UT is also about having tons and tons of fun ^_^ variation, lots of that. Look at all those mutators the community has produced. All those mods. All those little, big tweaks. Changes. So many of them.
To ensue an everlasting gaming experience...
That's the idea ;O)

UT also has a fair share of GOOD humour. The sounds, the character movement. Insta-hilarity-bomb. Never felt that whilst playing ut2003-4.

But that's just me. And who knows what UT2007 will bring...

Sir_Brizz
5th Aug 2005, 12:41 PM
Yes, it is, but is UT2K4 the most played game? Maybe Epic should try to explain the game to new customers with a good training mode instead of merely entrust that work to vehicles attraction.
If you won't accept Gamespy or Csports stats, then how could you ever tell if it was or not? According to CSports (which, IMO, is undercutting it's popularity) UT2k4 is always in the top 20 games. If you ask me, out of thousands of possible contenders, that is a pretty good ranking. How good is any game? We aren't likely to see another CS for multitudinous reason, and CS is by far the most played game ever. It's also a given that, for the time being, realism games are going to be more popular than sci-fi games. I haven't come up with a good reason why this is true so far, but I'm sure they are there because the player numbers in the different types of games (as well as what people are actually buying) speaks for itself.
They are the more played modes, but they are played by few, very few. I woudnīt call that a strong users base.
Comapred to the rest of the community? ONS/CTF/DM/TDM are the most played gametypes in UT2k4. They have been from the first day it was purchased. You can't really argue that, the facts are there everywhere stats are. Epic would be stupid to drop any of those gametypes, and even more stupid to give on of the other gametypes another chance (in the retail game, not talking bonus packs here). It is a huge percentage. You can count on one hand the number of populated BR/DDOM servers at any given time throughout the day, yet there are always more than 20 populated CTF servers.
Did I write something about drop ONS?
Every time I connect the servers are isolated, where are all those players?
I don't know exactly what you are trying to say here. I didn't have to claim that you wanted Epic to drop ONS because you already expressed your disdain for vehicle gametypes.
EDIT: comp CTF?
Competetive CTF.
Iīd like to compare UT with chess. Chess has got the quality that makes good games: is easy to learn and hard to master. UT is hard to master but it isnīt easy to learn, you are throwed to the arena without an idea on what to do.
When a new player starts UT2007 for first time, he will need a guide throught its techniques and rules, the weapons usage need to be explained, how to move and when move, etc.
Regardless vehicles quality, they will attract new players again, but if they are going to be massacred for people jumping around without knowing why, they will leave the game once more.
Iīm not blaming Epic cause ONS and CON. Epic is who blame traditional gameplay when they never tried to get their game more accessible, and I blame then for this.
I doubt anyone here would disagree with the fact that Epic needs some better tutorials with the game. I will, however, disagree that UT is difficult to pick up. How is it any different from any other game? It has the basic movements: forward, reverse, strafe left, strafe right, jump, shoot. I picked up UT2k3 Demo the first day it came out, and I was able to learn how to play it fairly quickly. The difficult part (and IMO the part that is best described as "difficult to master") is the EXTENDED movement like wall dodging, dodge-running, and boost dodging. In a nutshell, UT2k4 is no harder to pick up and play than any other game, but is alot harder to MASTER than most games.
I know Bombing Run will be no more, but Iīd like to say is the best UT2004 has, if it isnīt played is because people donīt know how to play it.
I agree with that, but the community in general doesn't. IMO, BR requires at least twice as much strategy as CTF (assuming that the maps are crappy Thorns remixes) and ends up being at least twice as much fun. But it's hard to find a BR server, let alone one without Zark/IG/LG/MyCrapMutator/PoopOnSticksMutator/etc. So while I do think that BR is the best of the core gametypes, I don't think Epic has any need to support it any longer.

Israphel
5th Aug 2005, 03:00 PM
good post

Ah right, now I can see better where you are coming from and I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying.

It's a very fine balance to walk between making a game accessible to new players and catering to the experienced ones...and I think with UT2kx Epic have leaned a little more towards the experienced players...which I can totally understand and support. I think that it's great that Epic puts the fans first.

However I would agree with you (sorry Brizz) that the learning curve for a beginner is very steep for the casual gamer and can be so intimidating that it puts people off.

It does feel right now as though hitscan dominates too much and so much of the game is about shooting pixel sized players from across the map, and dodging away to maintain your health instead of close up fighting.

As for players on foot against vehicles. I actually think that the balance right now is pretty good..the only vehicle that a player has no chance against on foot is the lev. But I would like to see power ups incorporated more into ONS (and indeed power-ups instead of adrenaline in other gametypes). IIRC only 4 of the retail ONS maps feature the amp (Severence, Red Planet, Torlan and Crossfire....although in Severence the placement is so bad as to make it pointless). Power-ups are a brilliant way of giving an on-foot player and advantage over vehicles. The amp means you can bring down a Raptor with one avril, that you can take a tank out with link or shock primary in seconds...but it is really under implemented in the gametype.

PersefoneBrother
5th Aug 2005, 04:46 PM
Persefone please install battlefield 2 and uninstall this "like duracell bunny" game, I want to stop jumping :P.

http://www.waficom.com/3d_site/images/adv_models/duracellbunny.gif

Sir_Brizz
5th Aug 2005, 08:19 PM
However I would agree with you (sorry Brizz) that the learning curve for a beginner is very steep for the casual gamer and can be so intimidating that it puts people off.
But what you are talking about is MASTERING the game, not learning the game. IOW, just like any other game, I can pick up UT and learn all the basic movements rather quickly. However, if I want to learn all the intricacies (essentially mastering the movement) I have to spend a great deal more time on it.

The BASE game has no more learning curve than any other game does. However, that curve goes up exponentially from learning and mastering, which most games don't involve. For example, I can pick up any realism shooter and master the movement in a relatively short amount of time. You can't do that with UT.
It does feel right now as though hitscan dominates too much and so much of the game is about shooting pixel sized players from across the map, and dodging away to maintain your health instead of close up fighting.
I can totally agree with this, but Epic seems to be trying to get rid of this. They are dropping the mini for the stinger, and hopefully the sniper will be projectile based, too. Anyways there really isn't another game out that that relies on projectiles as much as UT does.

I don't think how much a certain type of weapon dominates the game can really be blamed on Epic.

BITE_ME
5th Aug 2005, 11:13 PM
Would you all please stop using so maney words. My brain hurts, So I cant keep track of what your saying.

Israphel
6th Aug 2005, 05:50 AM
But what you are talking about is MASTERING the game, not learning the game. IOW, just like any other game, I can pick up UT and learn all the basic movements rather quickly. However, if I want to learn all the intricacies (essentially mastering the movement) I have to spend a great deal more time on it.

The BASE game has no more learning curve than any other game does. However, that curve goes up exponentially from learning and mastering, which most games don't involve. For example, I can pick up any realism shooter and master the movement in a relatively short amount of time. You can't do that with UT.

I guess the difficulty of a game is something totally subjective and what's easy for one may be difficult for another. I know that many of those movements are advanced, but the fact is that experienced players know them and new players don't....which means a new player feels a huge gap between what he can do and what experienced players can do.
Let me give an example: I was a console gamer and had never played a game on a PC until a mate showed me MoH 3 or 4 years ago. I had never used keyboard/mouse to control a game and had no experience of online gaming. So my first go on MoH my mate says, "go here, stand here, face that way and wait" and sure enough 2 players cam through a door and a killed them. It carried on like that most of the day....but can you imagine doing that on UT2k4? In realism games the weapons are all more or less the same...machine gun, rifle, pistol...all really hitscan just with different ranges. There's nothing complex and basically whoever sees the other player first will probably kill them. There's pretty much no way of dodging away and because of this you just need average aim (with the same kind of weapons) and a degree of map knowledge to be able to hold your own on a server.
With UT2k4 this won't really get you far. Aim with hitscan is really difficult to master and it will be a long while before a player is capable of getting kills with the lg or shock. Projectiles are also tricky to the new player against someone who knows how to play. You might see them first, might get them with a rocket or flak primary...then he's going to know you are there, dodge-around and kill you.

I was playing UT2k4 (never having played 2k3) for days before I even knew what was killing me...and weeks later I was still languishing around the bottom of the servers scores.

Now I'm not criticising the game, because I really love UT and it's pretty much the only game I play. I think that the sophistication that makes it tricky to pick up also makes it so rewarding to play and get good at.....but at the same time I recognise that it is much harder than any realism game which a player can pick up and start getting kills from the off.....with UT it takes a lot more patience...and sadly, a lot of people don't have the patience and don't bother spending the time trying to understand how the different weapons work....they get owned by players who move so fast that they never even feel that they are getting close, and give up.

I know of the changes that Epic are making for UT2k7 by changing the mini for the stinger...and afaik there's still been no confirmation of the LG. I also think that increasing the size of player models will help...and it seems that Epic want to make the fighting more in-your-face.
I pretty much trust them and am sure I'm going to like the game as I love UT2k4...but I really hope that they do find some way to make it a little less intimidating for new players, because for me it is a huge shame that a game as brilliant and rewarding as this gets overlooked by people who find it too intimidating.

randomevent
6th Aug 2005, 05:54 AM
I'm a big fan of Assault, though I don't play it as often because I dislike the way once you learn the chokepoints you no longer need to learn anything else... Reasons I don't play them online: dialup, stale levels, and the already low population. I suspect it's because other gametypes don't take as much knowledge to play well...it's still great for single player.

I also like DDom but I will agree that it's kind of castrated over the original Domination. Not chaotic enough...still fun though.

Either way, I won't really miss the gametypes all that much.

I was a fan of every UT, I never really considered any of them 'better' though 2003 clearly wasn't perfect. UT2004 is my favorite because I love running over people! Muahaha.

One thing I will say directly to the current conversation is....it takes too much brainpower to try to figure out what the hell someone in here is trying to say, so I'm not going to try to respond.

Persefone
6th Aug 2005, 08:11 AM
We aren't likely to see another CS for multitudinous reason, and CS is by far the most played game ever. It's also a given that, for the time being, realism games are going to be more popular than sci-fi games. I haven't come up with a good reason why this is true so far, but I'm sure they are there because the player numbers in the different types of games (as well as what people are actually buying) speaks for itself.

Itīs repeated in this forums like a mantra realism games are going to be more popular, realism games are going to be more popular. Why? I donīt think the sci-fi setting is the problem, the problem is the gameply, quite simple in realism games and quite hidden in UT. Is checkers more popular than chess in internet? I think it is not, why is CS more popular than UT? UT no only is the best shooter, it is probably one of the best games ever so, why is so unpopular? Nobody knows its rules and mechanic.


Comapred to the rest of the community? ONS/CTF/DM/TDM are the most played gametypes in UT2k4. They have been from the first day it was purchased. You can't really argue that, the facts are there everywhere stats are. Epic would be stupid to drop any of those gametypes, and even more stupid to give on of the other gametypes another chance (in the retail game, not talking bonus packs here). It is a huge percentage. You can count on one hand the number of populated BR/DDOM servers at any given time throughout the day, yet there are always more than 20 populated CTF servers.

Compared to the rest of games. This is not a civil war between UT gametypes. The facts are UT is only played by a few hardcore unrealers, and I can count with one hand the number of standard BR/DDOMservers so this games never had a chance.

I doubt anyone here would disagree with the fact that Epic needs some better tutorials with the game. I will, however, disagree that UT is difficult to pick up. How is it any different from any other game? It has the basic movements: forward, reverse, strafe left, strafe right, jump, shoot. I picked up UT2k3 Demo the first day it came out, and I was able to learn how to play it fairly quickly. The difficult part (and IMO the part that is best described as "difficult to master") is the EXTENDED movement like wall dodging, dodge-running, and boost dodging. In a nutshell, UT2k4 is no harder to pick up and play than any other game, but is alot harder to MASTER than most games.

Unreal is very different from other games. In Unreal the movement is part of combat like no other game and how to move in every situation it isnīt evident, at all. Every weapon need a different technique in certain circumstances, but how can know this the new player?. The player needs a deep knowledge of every map, and this is the core of Unreal gameplay, but... I could carry on but i think you can see pick up this game is something more than know the moves.

To master this game is to be able of put out other experienced unrealers:), no the knowledge of the techniques and basic strategies necessary to play the game. Thatīs the basic

I agree with that, but the community in general doesn't. IMO, BR requires at least twice as much strategy as CTF (assuming that the maps are crappy Thorns remixes) and ends up being at least twice as much fun. But it's hard to find a BR server, let alone one without Zark/IG/LG/MyCrapMutator/PoopOnSticksMutator/etc. So while I do think that BR is the best of the core gametypes, I don't think Epic has any need to support it any longer.

What Epic needs is to get this game more accessible and see what happen then. They have a diamond and they donīt know how to show it.

Sir_Brizz
6th Aug 2005, 11:48 AM
It´s repeated in this forums like a mantra realism games are going to be more popular, realism games are going to be more popular. Why? I don´t think the sci-fi setting is the problem, the problem is the gameply, quite simple in realism games and quite hidden in UT. Is checkers more popular than chess in internet? I think it is not, why is CS more popular than UT? UT no only is the best shooter, it is probably one of the best games ever so, why is so unpopular? Nobody knows its rules and mechanic.
That doesn't agree with anything we've seen in the past. UT was never higher than #3 by any stats site's standards. Every Sci-Fi game that has come out in the past 6 years has had the same problem: setting. Doom 3 was an ultra-failure, imo, because they couldn't really attract any new players to the game, and the old school players that played the originals didn't like the new gameplay. UT has the same problem, and they likely will for many years to come. If you look at CSports, or Gamespy, you can see that there are not popular Sci-Fi games (and the only real contender is UT). And just as an FYI, Half-Life isn't really considered "sci-fi".
Compared to the rest of games. This is not a civil war between UT gametypes. The facts are UT is only played by a few hardcore unrealers, and I can count with one hand the number of standard BR/DDOMservers so this games never had a chance.
That makes absolutely no sense against what you've been saying this entire thread (that getting rid of gametypes is a bad move). If you've been trying to say something else, you haven't done a very effective job of it. Anyhow, I hope what you are trying to say is that BR/DDOM never had a chance. That's not because of the number of servers, it's because of the number of POPULATED servers (which is why you can count on one hand the number of servers, admins don't just keep running servers if they are never used). I disagree that UT is only played by the hardcore, I see many many new players every time I play.
Unreal is very different from other games. In Unreal the movement is part of combat like no other game and how to move in every situation it isn´t evident, at all. Every weapon need a different technique in certain circumstances, but how can know this the new player?. The player needs a deep knowledge of every map, and this is the core of Unreal gameplay, but... I could carry on but i think you can see pick up this game is something more than know the moves.
I don't think anyone has argued that the game needs better tutorials as a launch point. The biggest problem is that new players have no entryway into the current movement system. Nothing in the tutorials or maual tells you about everything that you can do in the game, even thoough those skills are required fare. I think that the tutorials from UC2 are a lesson in how Epic is hoping to improve that system, however, so I'm not too concerned about it for 2k7. That being said, however, it is quite apparent that Epic is lessening the importance of dodge-jumping in the new game with the shallow/faster trajectories that dodging has in the gameplay videos.
To master this game is to be able of put out other experienced unrealers:), no the knowledge of the techniques and basic strategies necessary to play the game. That´s the basic
No, actually it's not. The basics aof the game are moving and shooting. These are the same skills you need in other games. You won't lead the scoreboard, but as a new player that should be expected. That is in stark contrast to games like CS where if you can aim, it doesn't matter how well you move or what kind of tactics you use.
What Epic needs is to get this game more accessible and see what happen then. They have a diamond and they don´t know how to show it.
I think the game IS accessible. I've said it before and I still stand by it: Anyone that knows what the basic movement skills are in UT can learn them with 2 hours of practice. The problem is that the great majority of new players don't have a convenient way of finding out what those movement skills are, and IMO that is where the biggest gap come from. That being said, UT is still one of the most popular games, and probebly in the top three of sci-fi games (possibly 1 or 2 even) so I hardly think that any UT game is as much of a "failure" as you think it is.

edhe
8th Aug 2005, 05:23 AM
Sci-fi is a subculture for a reason.

It's popular, but you don't see sci-fi programs on at 9pm, you see CSI, ER, etc. You see programs about gritty 'real' stuff.

More people will always relate to a 'realism' thing than a sci-fi thing. There's a massive sci-fi following of course, but it's still a minority.

Psychomorph
8th Aug 2005, 09:08 AM
What is 'INA' and 'Anet'?

Hmm, I´m mostly realism freak (got my account here, cuz of Infiltration Mod) and I´m UT fan, cuz Unreal was my first 3d game (I´ve played through).
Also I´m a fan of UT, cuz it is the most realistic looking scifi shooter from the UT & Q3 fraction type games.
I like UT from the point of view that it is a combat sport, not military.

I like Sci Fi, and I´m a realism freak, conclusion: I want a realistic Sci Fi game.

My wish for UT2007: No more hopping clowns in a circus using table sized weapons whith slow glowing turtle projectiles.
I want UT2007 beeing optically as photorealistic as possible, the combatants looking cool and serious, weapons looking beliveable and not oversized, effective weapon behavior (fast and powerful projectiles), real life behaving physics (not to hectical, right acceleration...).


I too would like to have more DEV activity.

DeeperShade
8th Aug 2005, 11:35 AM
Epic don't get involved with the community?
Okay then, tell me one other game developer that holds competitions that gives away $1,000,000 to community mod teams.. Wallpaper Weekly and Fansite Friday kinda pale into insignificance..

hal
8th Aug 2005, 12:39 PM
Yeah, you definitely can't say that they aren't active. Think about all of the bonus packs for the series, the server admin and mod mailing lists, the number of interviews, etc that they've participated in.

Just because they don't respond to every forum post in every forum doesn't mean that they aren't taking something from it. As a developer, you're better off not getting into long and intense forum posts that can not only suck up valuable work time, but potentially unintentionally give people the wrong impression about whatever subject is being debated.