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View Full Version : Powerful default weapon


nuttella
11th Jul 2005, 07:24 PM
Please, Epic, please give me back my Enforcer.

Please?

Thanks.

Olga
11th Jul 2005, 07:26 PM
They are putting the enforcer back in if you DIDN'T READ.

nuttella
11th Jul 2005, 07:31 PM
Oh, I guess I DIDN'T READ. I read about the Ripper, but missed the Enforcer. Well, here's hoping it packs the same punch.

Bullet10k
11th Jul 2005, 07:48 PM
Yea the default weapon (whatever its going to be, hopefully the enforcer) better be powerful and balanced. Like I mean the UT2004 default weapon is BARELY A THREAT, like would you still even call it a weapon?

The default weapon better be a threat.

Black_Seeds
11th Jul 2005, 08:07 PM
I can get quite a few kills with dual assault rifles, but singular i would rather go with Shield Gun.

Bullet10k
11th Jul 2005, 09:01 PM
I can get quite a few kills with dual assault rifles, but singular i would rather go with Shield Gun.
same:o

T2A`
11th Jul 2005, 09:17 PM
Spawn weapons shouldn't be powerful. That's the whole point. I'd rather a single enforcer be just enough to get by and find another weapon, whereas two can be fairly deadly since you either have to come across one randomly or kill someone to get it. The assault rifle demonstrates this decently; the only problem is a single assault rifle is just too weak to be effective at all.

Olga
11th Jul 2005, 09:33 PM
Also the fact that there aren't any pistols in UT2004 whereas every Unreal Game other than UT2004 has the automag/enforcer. Assault Rifle is just a weak Minigun.

Plumb_Drumb
11th Jul 2005, 10:33 PM
Couple those pee shots with a grenade from your secondary fire, and you have a fairly useful weapon.
In team games (TDM mostly) after a fresh spawn, i tend to supplement my teammates fire with some assault bullets from a safe vantage point, to ensure our team secure the kill. Unless, of course, there are better things to do, like power myself up.

nades are great for lobbing in difficult spots too.
________
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nuttella
11th Jul 2005, 11:01 PM
Spawn weapons shouldn't be powerful. That's the whole point. I'd rather a single enforcer be just enough to get by and find another weapon, whereas two can be fairly deadly since you either have to come across one randomly or kill someone to get it. The assault rifle demonstrates this decently; the only problem is a single assault rifle is just too weak to be effective at all.

The assault rifle demonstrates why a spawn weapon should be powerful, in that you're virtually defenseless when spawning, especially when you don't spawn right next to a weapon. The grenades are a good deterrent to someone charging straight at you (which is about the only way to get kills with them), but with a decent ranged weapon they can pretty much stand still and mow you down while you barely chip away at their health. Plus, since you have little choice but to head for the nearest real weapon, you are all the more vulnerable.

The enforcer on the other hand was a perfect example of what a spawn weapon should be. A four-hit kill against the unarmored and twice as deadly at close range, no one in their right mind would take a just spawned opponent lightly. But still, due to it's slow-ish rate of fire and lack of accuracy in its faster fire mode, it wasn't a weapon anyone would stick with. However, if you happened to spawn some distance from a weapon, or the nearest weapon was heavily guarded, you could put off the upgrade and even get a kill or two on the way.

I'm not asking to spawn with a flak cannon...

Plumb_Drumb
11th Jul 2005, 11:19 PM
yeah, I'd like a better spawn weapon too.
Notice how the shield gun is going away with the assault rifle?
Makes you wonder the true origin of the shield in the first place... to protect your infant butt from being slaughtered as you run like a sheep to the nearest... ANYTHING.

I hope there isn't a long charge time on the impact hammer too.
Makes it kinda hard to kill in the heat of hte moment; you have to plan a shield kill a little too much right now.
It's not a big problem, and you can still lauch them away from you with a quick click, but still.
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gades
12th Jul 2005, 01:25 AM
It doesn't actually need to be powerful, just somewhat accurate (almost pixel perfect). If the assault rifle had this accuracy, then then it's worth using.

Yeah, I miss the enforcers.
:cool:

-AEnubis-
12th Jul 2005, 03:02 AM
Uh, the AR7 isn't weak because of it's individual capabilities, it's weak because it's one gun. This game is all about switching weapons, and using multiple weapons in one battle. That is the whole reason why it's fires are so diverse, one mid damage projectile, and one rapid fire hit-scan weapon. It has to be somewhat weaker then the rest of the weapons so newbs know it's better to find another gun (see halo), but powerful enough to at least make your oppoent think.

The enforcers were as much weaker from balance perspective then the rest of the guns were, as the AR7 is now, because then, all the other weapons were way stronger. Combos decimated fresh spawns, one direct rocket offed them, and flak also killed in one ammo on either fire (actually it still does). A combo is much less likely to kill a spawn now, unless it's very precicely placed, and a rocket will not kill in one (and that is before accounting for spawnprotection). Flak can be done in one hit, but is much more difficult.

The SG was another reason the AR7 didn't need to be as much of a threat yes, but it would be hard to balance the AR7 vs an LtG/Link, Rox/Mini, or Shock, or any other 2 weapon combo you can think of, so why try? You really can barely think of any weapon in this game as one gun, you have to at least think in pairs, and AR7/SG is enough to survive to a weapon usually.

Next UT will be different with no SG. Hence the Enforcers return. I, though, was more likely even in UT to run IH instead of 1 Enforcer. Most maps were tight enough, you could be moderately effective with it, and it was much more intimidating.

MäxX
12th Jul 2005, 03:09 AM
Well, pouncing your opponent with round after round and making less damage isn`t so funny. The alt-fire is quite good, but generally I use this gun only when I have 2 of them (rocks with damage amplifier). for the beginning I mostly switch to Shield gun (depends on sit. of course)

Nosnos
12th Jul 2005, 03:37 AM
I don't think a spawnweapon should be as powerful as the other weapons in the game, I mean you should feel forced to get another weapon quickly after you have spawned. But at the same time the weapon should not be "useless". The AR works in UT2004 since you have the shield which you can use to defend yourself until you get a more powerful weapon. Since UT2007 will replace the shieldgun with the impact hammer I think they need to improve the spawnweapon as well... I dont think it needs to be as powerful as the enforcers are in UT... The biggest problem with the AR is that they have an extremly low accuracy... A spawnweapon with the damage of the assualt rifle but with the accuracy of the enforcers would be sweet imo ^^ and without the nades ofc... nades are the worst thing in UT2003/UT2004

EL BOURIKO
12th Jul 2005, 04:26 AM
puh!! i don t care about the assault riffle... i just wish that it could be possible to respawn without the boring Assault rifle at all! But i have not found a way to do so yet :S
In fact I would like to have a set up in the parameters that could allow me to decide to NEVER pick up one or several specifical weapons or have a specifical weapon when i walk on them or when i respawn. EPIC plz!!!

Zur
12th Jul 2005, 07:27 AM
Spawn weapons shouldn't be powerful. That's the whole point. I'd rather a single enforcer be just enough to get by and find another weapon, whereas two can be fairly deadly since you either have to come across one randomly or kill someone to get it. The assault rifle demonstrates this decently; the only problem is a single assault rifle is just too weak to be effective at all.

Yes, this is because the projectiles are too imprecise. The grenades can be deadly but you really have to know how to use them or be very lucky. The only moment where you can get an easy hit is when another player is rushing at you.

Also note that double ARs aren't just a novelty but something that's essential in TDM. If your team is the underdog and you're trying to get back on top, one way to do this is for one guy with a weapon to throw his AR to a team mate, double AR being almost as powerful as mini.

MäxX
12th Jul 2005, 09:05 AM
Yes, this is because the projectiles are too imprecise. The grenades can be deadly but you really have to know how to use them or be very lucky. The only moment where you can get an easy hit is when another player is rushing at you.

Also note that double ARs aren't just a novelty but something that's essential in TDM. If your team is the underdog and you're trying to get back on top, one way to do this is for one guy with a weapon to throw his AR to a team mate, double AR being almost as powerful as mini.

Yap, that trick worked well in UT(99) and does also in UT2k4 ;) When equiped with a good weapon dropping that thing for a teammate is always a nice move ;) but most players tend to only drop a weapon when it is at low ammo (to gain advanges if weapon stay is activated)

A more accurate starting weapon would be really nice. Of course not as good as a Minigun for instance, but making the "first frag" a little bit easier. (but in most cases another weapon crosses my path first)

-AEnubis-
12th Jul 2005, 02:36 PM
Yes, this is because the projectiles are too imprecise. The grenades can be deadly but you really have to know how to use them or be very lucky.

The projectile on that thing is more precise then the scans... :con:

Zur
12th Jul 2005, 03:47 PM
Hmm, sorry to confuse terms. I mean, in the real world bullets are projectiles. Let's say the random cone on AR fire (hitscan) is too wide.

Selerox
12th Jul 2005, 04:12 PM
The biggest problem with the AR is that they have an extremly low accuracy... A spawnweapon with the damage of the assualt rifle but with the accuracy of the enforcers would be sweet imo

Ouch, that'd be a fairly mean weapon. If you include the rate of fire, it'd be more lethal than the Enforcer (apart the Double Enforcers).

I don't see why the Enforcers can't be bought back in their entirety, damage and accuracy included.

The_Head
12th Jul 2005, 04:27 PM
Yeh bring back the Enforcer as it was. Although lobbing grenades at people is quite funny.

Persefone
12th Jul 2005, 04:47 PM
Gob of Spit and Spurt Combo

Xipher
12th Jul 2005, 10:21 PM
From what I have seen, the Enforcers are going to only come in the Dual fashion, as I have always seen "Dual Enforcers" never just Enforcer(s). Im guessing they will probably tone down the damage due to that, but I personally don't think that should be a problem.

Olga
12th Jul 2005, 10:27 PM
I don't see how the Enforcer in UT was too powerful. People who say "oh my god it kills in four hits" are blowing things out of proportion. It in fact took eight shots to kill someone with a single Enforcer. It is better than the AR because you don't have to keep your crosshair on the target all the time, you can shoot people in simple bursts rather than following them around, this is why it was a good starting weapon, it was an easy to use hit-scan, and quite an effective one. I wouldn't mind seeing their return in UT2007.

JaFO
13th Jul 2005, 08:35 AM
Why not allow people to pick their own default weapon ?
No need to run to a better weapon with a weak one.

In fact I like how UC2 handles weapons ... by practically removing the entire weapon-resource problem from the equation.
Altough I guess that would require too much of a revolution in the UT-series on the pc-platform.

You can't seriously expect a freshly spawned player to be a threat to a maxed out opponent, unless you hand him a weapon that can take out a maxed out opponent.
At that point it becomes a waste of time to acquire either any kind of upgrade ...
Even under those circumstances a freshly spawned player suffers from having to orient himself for a second or two.
Might as well call it instagib and be done with it.

Persefone
13th Jul 2005, 08:44 AM
Respawn with the weapon of your choice it´s a good idea

MäxX
13th Jul 2005, 09:16 AM
Respawn with the weapon of your choice it´s a good idea

Than I`ll take the Redeemer *lol*

serious....it`s a good idea, let the players choose from 5 "equal" weapons, good point :2thumb:

-AEnubis-
13th Jul 2005, 10:45 AM
It really depends on the gametype, and how they want "TDM" to be focused. Current TDM community probably wouldn't like that idea. Not That I care either way, I'll be playing TAM as soon as it's ported, and right back to spawning with all guns.

Nosnos
13th Jul 2005, 12:05 PM
It really depends on the gametype, and how they want "TDM" to be focused. Current TDM community probably wouldn't like that idea. Not That I care either way, I'll be playing TAM as soon as it's ported, and right back to spawning with all guns.

You are correct, it wouldnt like that ;) TDM is about control... control of the powerups, control of strategic areas and control of weapons... just having you spawn with a choicefree weapon would remove much of the need for control... everyone would probably pick the shockrifle as well, so would be kind of boring ^^

-AEnubis-
13th Jul 2005, 11:31 PM
Indeed, especially since we have no idea what snipe will be like, and if I had to choose one weapon, shock is most versitile. There wouldn't be much of a "choice" in the matter.

I wouldn't mind that so much though, don't even opt weapon stay off, and just have control on powerups. They'd prolly even make that hella tough, and I might play TDM :D

All in all though, they can have it now, I got what I need.

Wonder what impact that would have on CTF...

FireCrack
14th Jul 2005, 03:09 AM
Choosing to spawn with a gun of your choice eh...


Keep it limited to a few, mabye link, goo, mini...

hmm...

gregori
14th Jul 2005, 08:04 AM
If the AR770 had an underbarelled shotgun instead of a grenade launcher it may have been a more useful starting weapon!

Not sure choosing spawn weapon would work though, since i dont think UT2007 will be like UC2 in terms of gameplay

K.N.I.F.E
14th Jul 2005, 07:16 PM
Than I`ll take the Redeemer *lol*

serious....it`s a good idea, let the players choose from 5 "equal" weapons


Maybe a rating system with "points" for accuracy, rate of fire and power, and each weapon has set points like this.

Minigun:
A:2
ROF:5
P:3

and you only got a certain chosen amount of points for your starting weapons. You would pick them in the settings screen when you first open up the game.

JaFO
15th Jul 2005, 08:00 AM
Of course superweapons should be excluded from the list of choices (unless you want to keep it interesting ... redeemer-arena ;))

One only needs to look at how the current best-selling mp-games work and/or the popularity of instagib ...
Almost every single one of them has a system that gives players a fixed set of weapons at spawn. They don't need 'weak' defaults and at the same time they make sure that a 'fresh' player is a threat from the moment he spawns. That pretty much solves the problems created by having a default weapon in the first place.

With powerups like healthpacks, Keg'o'health, ammo, amp & armor-pickups on the map there's still plenty of room for 'control' if you need it.

// rating weapons :
I think that's an interesting idea, as it could even be extended into the amount of points scored for a frag.
ie : killing someone with a 'weak' weapon gives more points.

It gives far too many problems as players will have even more reasons to argue whether the weapon X is better than weapon Y.

Otoh ... it might give players a reason to pick a 'weak' weapon instead of a 'good' alround weapon like the shockrifle.

-AEnubis-
15th Jul 2005, 01:21 PM
// rating weapons :
I think that's an interesting idea, as it could even be extended into the amount of points scored for a frag.
ie : killing someone with a 'weak' weapon gives more points.

Won't happen with the current state of weapon switching going on. I also doubt that aspect of this game will phase out.

Another thing about "other best-selling mp-games" is in most of them you have a limited amount of inventory you can carry around, so starting with a decent weapon usually means you have to give it up to carry something else.

Was watching some halo2 last night, and thought it was much cooler the way the "control" aspects of that game are handled, considering you can only control 2 weapons per player on your team. Still leaves enough availible weapons for the opposition to be effective with. Not to mention, you drop everything, piniata style, when you die.

--->FromAnoobis°
17th Jul 2005, 08:54 AM
hmmm,i m gonna miss the shieldgun tho.
i liked the way you could lure an opponent towards you (possibly in a narrow space)with shield active and retreating and then hit him with primary like a s.o.a.b when he's expecting you to keep running from him.
it s quite effective,gives you time and some room to run for a weapon or other stuff;but mainly it s satisfactory,very satisfactory(ahhhhhhhh yeah baby)

Selerox
17th Jul 2005, 10:56 AM
Weapon ratings might be a good idea, if only to give new players a good idea what weapon is best for what job. Damage/Effective Range/Rate of Fire/Accuracy etc. For example (primary/secondary):

Minigun:
Damage: 2/3
Effective Range: 5/6
Rate of Fire: 9/7
Accuracy: 4/7

Rocket Launcher:
Damage: 8/10
Effective Range: 4/4
Rate of Fire: 5/1
Accuracy: 5/3 (Hard to judge for a splash weapon)