PDA

View Full Version : Revolutionary design elements? (No offense, excuse me if my words annoy you)


moonflyer
2nd Jun 2005, 04:40 AM
I just have a feeling that UT is becoming more and more traditional. Do you still remember the first time you played UT99? I was shocked and totally blown away by everything in this game.The weapons, the double shooting mode, the assault, ctf, dom, the damn cool animations and musics...the game was so original and special, and everything was as cool as possible. i think that was why it got a GOTY award

But, from the recent revealed informations of UT2K7, i can hardly tell there will be lot of fresh and revolutionary game design. Voice command system and the Conquest mode could be the fresh parts, but is that enough if the objective is to get the GOTY again or just make a "much better UT than anyone's ever seen"?

My view is current design of UT2K7 is just a mixture of UT2K4 and UT99, based on a so-called new engine which mostly improves the graphic. So i can't convince myself that next UT could turn out to be better than the original. I listed the new features came with UT2K4, and you could compare it with UT2K7
The main new design elements/features of UT2K4:
- New enhanced movement system: double jump, dodging jump, wall dodge...
- New weapons: assault rifle, lighting gun, ion painter...
- New gamemodes: br, ddom, invasion, ons
- Enhanced AI
...
Looks like UT2K4 has more or at least not less new features than UT2K7-__-!!!

I know it's really hard to design a revolutionary sequel and make it even better, and it's also risky to remove old elements and add new ones, but are we talking about next-gen UT? yes, so why not be more ambitious?

As an old and hardcore UT fan, i indeed don't care if the dodge is back or not, or if there is not shock rifle anymore. I mean i don't care the exact features. What i want is the feeling of the original UT(Dark, mystery, ancient, powerful, fast-paced, human like, historical, dangerous, face to face) and the fantastic wonderful gameplay! To be frank with you, i feels a bit boring now after seeing the shock rifle and dodge again and again!
I miss the original UT so much, because I miss the feeling, but yup i tell myself they had gone forever...
UT has been restricted within its old rules...
Well i personaly think there are still some chances.
The following is a simple list where i think the revolutionary design can take place:
- new movement system
// The dodge/double jump based system can't resolve the conflict between fast-paced movement and the scale of level (which affect face2face feeling directly)
// The old movement system keeps player from smooth moving on slope or stairs
// There could be other possible z-axis moves (lift jump was really a great idea, so why not think about more)
// The old movement system keeps player from playing in the water (i don't like the bounce when you try to go onshore, and swimming is too slower than normal movement thus deep pool became very bad design in ut2k4, what a pity!)
// There could also be some portable vehicle/suit which allows player to move very fast, in the Conquest mode, you know, in ONS, if you can't get a vehicle, you have to walk over long distance, so why not give us more solutions?
- new weapons
//stinger is indeed not a totally fresh design, but i am not against it, at least it could be interesting not to see minigun again
// more offensive-oriented weapons, new balance can still be implemented. when you think weapon A is "too" powerful, it is possibly because weapon B is too useless. The right solution is try to make every weapon as useful as possible, don't just reduce its power simply, this is rude
// it's time to blow away us again with some totally new but cool weapons. Maybe physics related, like the stake gun of painkiller or the gravity gun from hl2.
// at least give these guys, shock rifle, flak cannon, rocket launcher, really fresh appearances
- new game mode
// I don't think Conquest can replace ONS. Conquest is a long time warfare, while ONS is just about half an hour. Conquest requires more players to play in a very very huge scene while ONS can be played 2on2...there are too many differences, so don't be naive to think player from UT2K4 won't miss ONS because they have Conquest
// ONS does has a few defects, e.g. the gameplay is based on vehicle and node too much, but these can be fixed
// And any new gamemodes for non-vehicles combat? Focusing on dm and ctf is really cool but, the best a dm can be is still a dm! survival sounds good but where is(are) the new team mode(s)?
// Is that possible to create a mode filled with all kinds of close combat. i mean face2face fighting? Is that possible to create a non-team mode that player try to get a portable "domination" point and the score begins to increase thus the hostile has to kill you and take away the "dom" from you? Or is that possible to create a defrag or non-frag mode where main gameplay is about physics environment and brilliant movement?
// you see, so many possibilities
- new environment
// physics can be much more useful than you can imagine. Before hl2, almost no one thinks physics is really important (and also they all think it's too risky to implement physics coz you know AI or collision or lots of things can be crazy, but hl2 did it, so beautiful and owned the GOTY)
// Underwater is impossible? It could be interesting and even great to see fast-paced moveing underwater and fight against your foes, and with the help of physics, we can try some really cool interations
// Dark and full realtime lighting? Thermal view? night view? you can shoot off a torch(which can respawn) to cover yourself or your team mates? or some parts of a level is totally dark sometimes and you have to switch on the night view? These may not good ideas but why not brainstorm?
- new vehicles
// i don't like the tank from UT2K4, because tank is too common, everyone knows tank. It should be a vehicle for releastic games like BF or COD, but not sci-fi games. Have you played hl2? This is a real sci-fi when it comes to vehicle!!! (especially those vehicles of the hostiles) Unreal Tournament is about UNREAL, so don't make real vehicle any more!!!
// Portable vehicles! Which act as a equipment(need a weapon slot?) than a normal vehicle, so if you can't catch a normal vehicle, you don't have to walk on foot, you can use it though it requires a few energy or other supply(just like ammo), and it can't provide you the power to attack
Or maybe a even more crazy idea, why not replace all the vehicles with potable movement enhancement devices? Thus we don't need 3rd view and the combat can be closer. This idea is a little like Tribe, but the difference is these devices are spawned like other items and player can change his current in-use device at the device bases(of course, we don't need more than one slot for these devices)
//The vehicle based gameplay of UT2K4 is very very different from the normal shooting gameplay, you know, everyone prefer to use 3rd person view to control vehicles, and because vehicles move much faster than human being so the battle field became even larger. So sometimes i feel i am not playing UT when im driving a tank or a chopper in ONS. And im always thinking why EPIC doesn't create a new title to develope the "ONS" gameplay and just keeps UT as UT, which was supposed to be a pure first person shooter.

hmm. that's enough:o)
again, all of these are just my personal views, just some spam in this boring afternoon, no offense!
:lol:

EL BOURIKO
2nd Jun 2005, 08:45 AM
you make me curious moonflyer, maybe i should check UT99 since i ve never played it...

gregori
2nd Jun 2005, 01:10 PM
I think moonflyer has hit the nail on the head!

Nunchuk_Skillz
2nd Jun 2005, 01:42 PM
I guess this falls under the category of "to each his own". Personally, if they make this a "better UT than before" I'll be as happy as I can be. There have been plenty of other games that have tried to come up with "revolutionary" new things in the fps genre, and imo, none of them have really worked that great. Yes, I wouldn't mind them coming up with a new weapon or two to replace some of the more boring ones from 2k4, but overall, if it's just a 3x better version of 2k4 and looks almost lifelike, that'll be plenty for me.

{RA}SKYFURNACE
2nd Jun 2005, 02:09 PM
there are 2 camps, people who want the sequels to be the same but better, or those that want something totally new.

Quake 4 isnt going to be new at all, the MP will just be updated as stated by raven and ID, which is a very diff approach than waht epic/DE did in its migration from UT to UT2K* series.

Tribes:V was really diff than before. It didnt do so hot.

BF:V was a real departure to BF42, and never really caught on. Altho BF2 will be pretty much a mix bag of old and new, with very much improved features.

It really comes down to:

Making a game really fun & Interesting. There is no recipe for this... as if there would be thousands of games that were great.

Bot_40
2nd Jun 2005, 03:44 PM
I think it would be nice mainly to see 1 or 2 new gametypes. Still have the original UT "formula" with ctf, dm, tdm etc. but something simple that adds a bit of spice. For example, when I first played the original UT, I really liked DOM simply because it was something new and interesting. It's still yer basic UT fragfest, but with a twist. Obviously I would never play DOM if I wanted a serious match, but at least it's something original.
UT2k3 tried, and they introduced bombing run, but it was just a complete and utter mess.
UT2k4 has invasion, which is pretty good fun if you want some mindless slaughtering, but now 99% of servers have been replaced by rather lame rpg inv :hmm:
imo to get a fun new gametype you don't need extra vehicles or added weapons or any of that, there's loads of options out there. A great example would be jailbreak, fantastic gametype, but the core gameplay is still classic ut and doesn't need any extra crap to make it fun.

Darkmatch might be pretty interesting in UE3 what with the dynamic lighting and so on :)

Nunchuk_Skillz
2nd Jun 2005, 06:00 PM
The fact that you're citing things that are different or that have some kind of a twist to them, and that all failed should give you a hint there, imo. :D Those things (new, revolutionary game play) are *not* what makes a great fps. Evolving the game and making it better are the keys. If you want something totally different, I'm sure there will be other games that deliver. But why would you want a radically different UT? Then there won't be *any* UT, because it'll be something else.

Let's just hope Epic nails 2k7 as the best UT ever, and let other companies worry about doing something revolutionary and creating the next Tribes: V or (ich) Pariah. :p

moonflyer
2nd Jun 2005, 10:24 PM
I guess this falls under the category of "to each his own". Personally, if they make this a "better UT than before" I'll be as happy as I can be. There have been plenty of other games that have tried to come up with "revolutionary" new things in the fps genre, and imo, none of them have really worked that great. Yes, I wouldn't mind them coming up with a new weapon or two to replace some of the more boring ones from 2k4, but overall, if it's just a 3x better version of 2k4 and looks almost lifelike, that'll be plenty for me.

;) right, but i can't believe ut2k7 will be 3x better than 2k4, according to the current revealed infos. a reduced dodging jump or removing dom or bringing back enforcer won't actually make it the best UT, at best it could be on the same level of UT99
well i will be happy and go on playing ut if 2k7 could be better than 2k4, but if 2k7 can bring the world, the industry, and the community the revolutionary wonderful gameplay....i mean really good gameplay, not just brand new. I will be very very appreciative of that
and i believe Valve's objective is to make HL and every sequel the bese of the best. I just hope EPIC can learn something from that!


I think it would be nice mainly to see 1 or 2 new gametypes. Still have the original UT "formula" with ctf, dm, tdm etc. but something simple that adds a bit of spice. For example, when I first played the original UT, I really liked DOM simply because it was something new and interesting. It's still yer basic UT fragfest, but with a twist. Obviously I would never play DOM if I wanted a serious match, but at least it's something original.
UT2k3 tried, and they introduced bombing run, but it was just a complete and utter mess.
UT2k4 has invasion, which is pretty good fun if you want some mindless slaughtering, but now 99% of servers have been replaced by rather lame rpg inv :hmm:
imo to get a fun new gametype you don't need extra vehicles or added weapons or any of that, there's loads of options out there. A great example would be jailbreak, fantastic gametype, but the core gameplay is still classic ut and doesn't need any extra crap to make it fun.

Darkmatch might be pretty interesting in UE3 what with the dynamic lighting and so on :)
totally agree, keeps the core(gameplay and feeling or style) of classic ut, and bring us something new. i think why bombing run and double dom are not popular is they are both not free and fantastic enough, they look pretty balanced, but ut players are freelancers by nature so don't make gameplay linear


The fact that you're citing things that are different or that have some kind of a twist to them, and that all failed should give you a hint there, imo. :D Those things (new, revolutionary game play) are *not* what makes a great fps. Evolving the game and making it better are the keys. If you want something totally different, I'm sure there will be other games that deliver. But why would you want a radically different UT? Then there won't be *any* UT, because it'll be something else.

Let's just hope Epic nails 2k7 as the best UT ever, and let other companies worry about doing something revolutionary and creating the next Tribes: V or (ich) Pariah. :p

yes, i see you points and actually i agree with you. what i want is not a new game! i have to say again that plz keep the core of UT, then bring us new things, basiclly UT is a competitive, fast-paced, individualistic, fantastic, historical shooter,so it's not tribes, not pariah, not anything else
yup, revolutionary things won't actually make a game great, but without them we have to play with the old gameplay again and again until one day another great fps is born

BooGiTyBoY
2nd Jun 2005, 11:15 PM
Im with ya on everything there Moon, except using valve and HL2 as an example. Am I the only one that thought that game was a re-hashed piece o' dung?

gregori
3rd Jun 2005, 08:16 AM
Admitedly, when your finshed looking at the eye candy and gimmicks, half life 2 just couldn't live to how revolutionary the original was, It felt a bit shallow.

though the original half life is a good example of how revolutionary game design pays off for everybody! The leap between it's design and quake is lightyears

Nunchuk_Skillz
3rd Jun 2005, 02:00 PM
right, but i can't believe ut2k7 will be 3x better than 2k4, according to the current revealed infos

First, going by what has been revealed so far is a mistake, given that we're still at least a year out.

Second, a good fps game is all about feel, balance, etc. It's *not* about new features at this point. Otherwise, the 50 fps games that have come since 2k4 shipped that all have new/different takes on the genre would have come up with something that would have stolen the show.

Sure, they'll come up with some new things, but I'm sure whatever new stuff they come up with won't be the difference in me liking or disliking the game. For me, the question about what will keep me coming back will come down to how well they execute the core game play elements of UT CTF that have all been around since UT'99 shipped.

moonflyer
4th Jun 2005, 03:15 AM
yup, :P
i just want ut2k7 to be totally excellent, not just a good one. I mean when people talking about it, they won't just say oh it's a great sequel of that famous old title, they should say omg this is one of the greatest game of the world. It's the real next-gen. They just can't believe today a pure fps can be as better as this one

carmatic
4th Jun 2005, 06:55 PM
The vehicle based gameplay of UT2K4 is very very different from the normal shooting gameplay, you know, everyone prefer to use 3rd person view to control vehicles, and because vehicles move much faster than human being so the battle field became even larger. So sometimes i feel i am not playing UT when im driving a tank or a chopper in ONS. And im always thinking why EPIC doesn't create a new title to develope the "ONS" gameplay and just keeps UT as UT, which was supposed to be a pure first person shooter.
ok i didnt actually read all of your post cuz its so long and im so sleepy, but i spotted this paragraph, and i wanted to say, like, whenever your playing in instant action, and when you didnt have auto taunts turned off.... just remember, when you get killed by a bot and it uses one of the character taunts, that this is, after all, a tournament , only just where your skill with vehicles count as much as your skill with weapons

gregori
8th Jun 2005, 02:47 PM
Damn, my hope is that epic isn't trying to merely pawns us off with a 'good' game , not even 'great' will be good enough, I'd hope they're are trying to make the best multiplayer FPS ever ever ever! Unfortunately for epic that means gameplay thats next to none aswell as revolutionary design elements, stuff that hasn't been done before!

Xaero_UT
9th Jun 2005, 01:00 AM
Damn, my hope is that epic isn't trying to merely pawns us off with a 'good' game , not even 'great' will be good enough, I'd hope they're are trying to make the best multiplayer FPS ever ever ever!

unfortunately for epic IF they managed that, how could they do better than that, they may release a hundred more games, we'll be like, pass, ive already played the best fps ever...whats left... :lol:

but i agree with most said here, i would like to see ut07 and look at my ut04 and while enjoying it at the time, wonder how i could ever play a game like that, when THIS GAME IS TEH PAWN0RZ

in the end though id like to keep it remotely connected to 04, cause of all the fun i had with it.

Nunchuk_Skillz
9th Jun 2005, 01:20 PM
Vehicles do completely change the game play in UT, and in the mods where they're present, they absolutely dominate the game type. ONS isn't really about how good you can frag (which has always been the core of UT), it's about 1) how good your strats & teamwork are, and 2) how well you utilize the vehicles.

The problem with that (imo, anyway) is that learning to frag with vehicles is *far* easier than learning to frag person-to-person, so you can have someone who's otherwise a total n00b pick up the game, get good in a tank or a raptor and actually do quite well at ONS pretty quickly if they're in the right team environment.

And while I liked ONS and played a lot of it, it eventually got pretty boring for me, because the in your face fragging is really what I enjoy, rather than using vehicles in either ONS or vCTF. To each his own, of course, and I don't discount someone who enjoys those game types, but I'd have to agree that it's a pretty different game than the core game play of UT that we've had for 6 years now.

hal
9th Jun 2005, 03:47 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, moonflyer, but I don't think you played Unreal. From the way you are talking, it seems as though you may have started with UT, because most of the innovation of the series started with Unreal and not UT. UT just took it one step further, borrowed heavily from existing multiplayer games and mods, and did it better than it had ever been done before. It wasn't wildly innovative or anything. They just nailed the features that they needed to nail.

Now, should Epic simply repeat that formula? That's the real question.

I think that they should, but perhaps the vehicle portion of the game should be its own series.

It would be interesting to see what they could do if they released a game that had 50 good DM and CTF maps and gameplay to match. Then at some point down the road, released a game that had 50 good ONS and Conquest maps. They wouldn't even have to be compatible. In fact, it would be better if they weren't - then no compromises would have to be made for either camp.

To address another comment I saw about nerfing the movement = going back to UT. Not really. It's just that the exaggerated movement really screwed up the player/map scale and put off a lot of veterans and beginners. I like it ok, but I can see how keeping the same basic movements from UT2004 and increasing the gravity effect and toning down the crazy jumps would appeal to many.

edhe
9th Jun 2005, 04:11 PM
UT brought to a single gametype what people were wanting, pure MP arena gaming. With ONS they also brought what people wanting, hi-grade vehicle combat with good DM dynamics. It's not some great perversion but an evolution, still plenty standard fragging going on. 2k4 is mainly ONS, TDM and 1v1 now, shows that worked and that the CTF wasn't as appreciated.

Oakwarrior
9th Jun 2005, 04:20 PM
CTF not appreciated? That's crazy talk. Everybody likes it. Everybody likes it her in Estonia. We've had lan parties where we virtually only played CTF.

BooGiTyBoY
9th Jun 2005, 04:36 PM
I don't think I've yet to voluntarily join a ctf server since the original UT. Only times I play it are when it's voted on FragBU. CTF in 2k4 just doesn't have the same feel or flow that it did before. Pretty sad considering I was mainly a ctf/as player and now I hardly touch either gametype in it's current versions. I too have migrated into the TDM/TAM camp and am quite happy there.

Oakwarrior
9th Jun 2005, 04:48 PM
I like UT2k4's all gametypes. Here goes "Da List"

1. Onslaught
2. Assault
3. (vehicle)Capture the Flag
4. Team Deathmatch
5. Deathmatch
6. Last Man Standing
7. Bombing Run
8. Double Domination







EDIT: 9. Last and DEFINATLEY least: Invasion

BooGiTyBoY
9th Jun 2005, 04:49 PM
I don't see invasion in there...
shame on you. ;)

Oakwarrior
9th Jun 2005, 04:51 PM
That's because I don't play it :shake:

Nunchuk_Skillz
9th Jun 2005, 07:44 PM
Well, I wouldn't want to see them completely break apart CTF/DM/TDM from the vehicle based mods. ONS served as the gateway for a lot of new players and teams into 2k4, and although it took time, many of them have transitioned into the other game types as well (although mostly TDM & now TAM). So it would seem a shame to get rid of that all together.

Also, keep in mind that ONS as a competitive mod isn't doing any better than CTF these days, as it has exactly the same number of teams competing on TWL and has no leagues whatsoever going for it right now. It does still have the pub numbers, though.

I would also say that CTF in 2k4 just isn't as good as it was in UT, because they fumbled a few crucial balancing elements that UT had nailed perfectly. 2k4 as a game just happens to be a bit better suited to TDM (imo, anyway), where the advanced movement really helped (whereas it actually hurt a bit in ctf, because they then had to change the trans, which was kinda botched, etc.).

moonflyer
9th Jun 2005, 09:54 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, moonflyer, but I don't think you played Unreal. From the way you are talking, it seems as though you may have started with UT, because most of the innovation of the series started with Unreal and not UT. UT just took it one step further, borrowed heavily from existing multiplayer games and mods, and did it better than it had ever been done before. It wasn't wildly innovative or anything. They just nailed the features that they needed to nail.

Now, should Epic simply repeat that formula? That's the real question.

I think that they should, but perhaps the vehicle portion of the game should be its own series.

It would be interesting to see what they could do if they released a game that had 50 good DM and CTF maps and gameplay to match. Then at some point down the road, released a game that had 50 good ONS and Conquest maps. They wouldn't even have to be compatible. In fact, it would be better if they weren't - then no compromises would have to be made for either camp.

To address another comment I saw about nerfing the movement = going back to UT. Not really. It's just that the exaggerated movement really screwed up the player/map scale and put off a lot of veterans and beginners. I like it ok, but I can see how keeping the same basic movements from UT2004 and increasing the gravity effect and toning down the crazy jumps would appeal to many.

haha,i played ut99 in 1999, and yup it was the first one i ever played, but soon about late in 2000, i played unreal1 and return to napali. and i knew unreal had mp too, and also the weapons like rl, stinger...but i just felt ut99 was much better than u1's mp. IMO, i considered u1'mp as the beta version of ut99, so ut99 was the indeed first generation of this tournament game. well this is just my opinion:P

yup, it would be really better if the vehicle portion become another series, focusing on large battle field and total warfare. or even combine it with the unreal 3's mp, but for ut itself, only dm and ctf won't be enough, this game need some innovational crazy face2face game modes to appeal the community

i don't think simply increasing the gravity will fix those defects like you can't move smooth and fast on slope or stairs.
btw, i don't like the collision/bump system of ut2k4, as a mapper, i have to tune the collision again and again coz even a very small collision bulge will interrupt the movement flow. at least, in order to improve the movement system, epic should improve the player bump system

gregori
10th Jun 2005, 07:31 AM
ONS wouldn't be fun enough on its own as a game, the team based combat is kept within a DM game so that it reminds the developers to keep it simple and to the point pick up and play action