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1337
30th May 2005, 12:52 AM
There needs to be a trial map teaching you the basics, explaining to you how to wall dodge and etc... And have it explain to you that the stupid character flipping animation is all fluff and it is only character animation based. I wonder how many more people would still be playing ut2k4 if there was a simple trial map explaining to you everything from movement to weapons to vehciles. It wouldn't take a lot of resources to do it and it would enhance a lot of beginner's experience. I wonder if ut2k4 really has a steep learning curve or if there is just a lack of documents teaching people how to play that don't need to be accessed through google or forums. UT2k4 is such a unique game; there needs to be better tutorials. It shouldn't be a requirement of every gamer that buys ut2k4 to have to google 'ut2k4 guide'. Just watch that ut2k4 DM tutorial in the community section again; it's ridiculous.

There also needs to be a dummy built into the level that somehow communicates how much damage is being done to it. So you have a better idea of what each weapon does. Maybe even add a section into the map that shows you how to use the projectile weapons effectively.

I understand that there might be some hidden gems in the game that the developer wont even be aware of, like the boost dodging in ut2k3 and the strafe jumping and insanely awesome physics in Q3... but atleast all the movement techniques and cool weapon features the developer is aware of should be communicated to the new gamer through a tutorial level or demo.

Xaero_UT
30th May 2005, 01:21 AM
there are game tutorials, 1 for dm/tdm, ctf, br?,etc (while not the most helpful, they do start somewhere)

in community, tutorials or something, while it would be good for epic to include it to help people, i believe buying any ut strat mag, would probably help u out enought to get going..

edit_ check out the community(forums, webpages), that has no doubt helped thousands of people.
+ people are willing to help other players (mostly anyway)

EL BOURIKO
30th May 2005, 01:30 AM
i would like to have a system based on licenses like in GT4 to learn all the move and jump technics (from very basic ones to most advanced ones...)
This way everyone would try them and even if they don t master them, they would know what it is about...

1337
30th May 2005, 01:53 AM
there are game tutorials, 1 for dm/tdm, ctf, br?,etc (while not the most helpful, they do start somewhere)

in community, tutorials or something, while it would be good for epic to include it to help people, i believe buying any ut strat mag, would probably help u out enought to get going..

edit_ check out the community(forums, webpages), that has no doubt helped thousands of people.
+ people are willing to help other players (mostly anyway)Look at the dm/tdm tutorial it's hideous. A trial map would better suit beginners.

Players shouldn't have to buy a strat mag to learn the movement basics. Strat mags should be about map control, refining aiming techniques and more advanced aspects of the game.

A beginner shouldn't have to use google to find a decent guide or have to join a community just to learn the basics of a game, even though this may have been why ut2k3's community was so strong but small.

FireCrack
30th May 2005, 02:13 AM
Epic said somthing along the lines of having an interactive tutorial, thanks to kismet.

Selerox
30th May 2005, 07:27 AM
The original UT had a series of simple tutorial maps for each gametype (and basic movement). You could physically do the moves, rather than just watching.

EL BOURIKO
30th May 2005, 12:00 PM
Strat mags should be about map control, refining aiming techniques and more advanced aspects of the game.

A beginner shouldn't have to use google to find a decent guide or have to join a community just to learn the basics of a game, even though this may have been why ut2k3's community was so strong but small.


Have you ever found some decent guides? all that I have found mostly describes where everything stands. we don t need a guide to know that, we just need to go around with the free cam to find out where everything stands. In addition, I even found some secrets by my own that no guide even mentioned :S
I wonder if sometimes some unscrupulous book editors just only use the UT name only to make easy money with some amator guides...

NeoNite
30th May 2005, 02:07 PM
The original UT had a series of simple tutorial maps for each gametype (and basic movement). You could physically do the moves, rather than just watching.

Yes, but you'd have to start a tournament game if you wanted to play those tutorial maps. Which isn't that much bother anyhow.

Tournament game: The single player. The challenge ladder. Not the practise sessions.

BooGiTyBoY
30th May 2005, 03:26 PM
It's simple...

Make an instruction booklet that actually instructs you how to play.

How many times have you found out something new in this game that "wasn't in the book." You seriously don't want to know how long I played this game before I knew you could switch seats inside a vehicle or how to actually do it. In my opinion that's not an unimportant tactic NOR is it "easter-egg" worthy. It should have been in there. That's just one of many.

I see this trend in a lot of new games... it all started pretty much with the newer "smaller boxes" seen in stores. Ever since packaging went to half the size, it seems the contents that came with the game halved as well with half-assed manuals and whatnot.

EL BOURIKO
31st May 2005, 11:01 AM
why not having some kind of map(s) that would be both a challenge (with best times online) and a way to learn some jumps tricks or shooting tricks or whatever else technical.
for instance you must go from point A to B in the map as fast as possible. To make your way, you must shoot a flying target with your lightning gun to make a bridge avalaible, then you must jump over a gap with a boost jump, (or go around if you miss (longer wayof course)), then you must perform a shield gun jump to jump over a wall and so on...
We could have 2 or 3 of such maps that everyone could play alone and the best times could then appear online on the stats server and in the personnal stats.

Well, that s just my way to try to figure out an interesting and challenging tutorial.

Xaero_UT
31st May 2005, 08:32 PM
Have you ever found some decent guides? all that I have found mostly describes where everything stands. we don t need a guide to know that, we just need to go around with the free cam to find out where everything stands. In addition, I even found some secrets by my own that no guide even mentioned :S
I wonder if sometimes some unscrupulous book editors just only use the UT name only to make easy money with some amator guides...

lol, he was actually disagreeing with me, who made that claim(about guides), would be cool if there was a map, and the announcer told u stuff, would be cool

Discord
31st May 2005, 08:51 PM
lol, he was actually disagreeing with me, who made that claim(about guides), would be cool if there was a map, and the announcer told u stuff, would be cool


Yeah, I'm for it. It worked pretty well with HL and CoD, so why not?

And agreed it should be under Instant Action/ Practice Session as well as Single Player/ Tournament. Maybe you could get the option to remove the GUI link to it if you actually did all the tutorials.

krjal
31st May 2005, 09:24 PM
TBH I was puzzled by the choice to not include real tutorials in the 2KX games.

This should definitely be in but they bloody well had better not tout it as a revolutionary feature. It should have been in there in the first place!

JaFO
1st Jun 2005, 01:35 PM
Yes, but you'd have to start a tournament game if you wanted to play those tutorial maps. Which isn't that much bother anyhow.

Tournament game: The single player. The challenge ladder. Not the practise sessions.
Of course it would be better if they separated the 'real practice' from the single-player content (which is also a kind of tutorial).
However in concept the UT99 tutorials where better because they were interactive. And that is what really is missing in the UT2kx-series of tutorials ...

// ---
The 'license'-idea sounds like a great option to get people to play the tutorials.
The only problem is that the kind of people that should use these things don't.
An America's Army-style set of tutorials (forcing people to play the tutorials before allowing them to play online) would only result in people trying to find cheats to skip the tutorials ...
Altough IMHO the benifits would outweigh the costs, provided the tutorials are fun to play.

krjal
1st Jun 2005, 11:25 PM
They don't have to force people to play them, just have a little notice box saying, "It is recommended you play the tutorials before venturing online. Press OK to play tutorial or Cancel to continue."

FireCrack
2nd Jun 2005, 01:13 AM
Dont call them tutorials thouggh, that sounds unnatractive. Somthig like "Arena qualification".

T2A`
2nd Jun 2005, 02:02 AM
Or call it "N00bs: Click here." :D

This game needs more tutorials, and I'm pretty pissed at the complete lack of anything in-game or in the book. Just look at the DM "tutorial." It says something along the lines of, "You start out with a shield gun and it can gib people. You also start out with an assault rifle and it can throw grenades. These are great weapons, but you're going to need to find more. The end." Nowhere does it mention weapon damage, powerup respawn times, or the fact that dying a lot in TDM is just as bad as not killing people. It's pathetic, really. To learn this game requires you to find somewhere to play with skilled people, but playing with skilled people as a first-timer results in you not being able to kill anyone. That reason alone is probably why so many people shelf this game after they buy it (or start playing Instagib).

PS: NeoNite, there's a button when choosing a map in Instant Action to view the tutorial for whichever gametype you've selected, I believe.

EL BOURIKO
2nd Jun 2005, 02:21 AM
In addition, I am sure that a well designed tutorial could also explain new tricks to both new beginners and experienced players as well.
IMO, some licences (based on GT4 licenses) would be the best way to introduce the tutorial. One could think it this way, the more licenses you manage to get, the more secrets characters you unblock.

JaFO
2nd Jun 2005, 03:25 AM
It would sure beat having to complete the singleplayer-tournament only to find that you get one lousy character (if you had completed the thing on the 'godlike' difficulty-setting) ...

Even something as simple as unlocking new maps/gametypes would be some encouragement towards completing the licenses.

NeoNite
2nd Jun 2005, 08:50 AM
For those of you who've never played Unreal Tournament, here's what the start of the "Tournament ladder" looks like.

Select a team etc.. next is the first ladder: deathmatch. And the oooh soooooo pwetty ;O) tutorial map. Voice narrated (and a very sexy voice it is...)

You learn the basic movement, learn how to use the impact hammer, there's a shockrifle. An opponent spawns, he can't hurt you but you have to frag him 5 times etc...

EL BOURIKO
3rd Jun 2005, 02:47 PM
IMO, if EPIC really wants to help new beginners and why not average players too,here is what would be interesting to see in a serious tutorial (/training mode) for DM:

-clear explanations about weapons followed by some challenges for EVERY weapons (both primary and secondary fire)
- clear explanations about Shield Gun (or whatever else that will replace it) and challenges for ALL the different kind of shield gun jumps
- clear explanations/examples about dodge-, boost-, sideboost- and wall-jumps with concrete challenges on different places of the different official maps
- clear explanations about adrenaline and comboes
- clear explanations about lift jumps and jump pads followed by some challenges
- and explanations about miscellaneous things such as drop weapon, crouch, double damage, shield, health bonus (it may sound weird to talk about such obvious things as health pick up but how often have you met players on public servers who just rush into the melee without picking up the health vial standing just 5 meters away from them!!!)...

I would really like to see that in a license system "a la" gran turismo.

gregori
3rd Jun 2005, 06:02 PM
The best solution would be a trial map on a need to know basis ie you can't really complete it as such, just ask the hologram instructor in it 'how do i do a wall jump'
'whats a shock combo' and so on....... basically have a list of tutorials in side a dynamic tutorial that you can train with at your discretion ,

also have on the maps for example a room for practising different types of jumps, a room for practising evasion and reflecting projectiles, an outside area to practice vehicles, a target practice room and finally a combat room were you can easily add and adjust bots as your skill increases, the ideas is that you can train for anything possible that you want to do
much like that funny program in the martrix ' the construct' that they used for training

i think instead of making deck 16 a map, the should make it the combat area of this training map

NeoNite
3rd Jun 2005, 07:21 PM
Sheesh, with all those serious tutorials.. where would the fun be in discovering things all by yourself :-/ That, especially, is what I liked doing most in my newbie days..

And some, even most things are simply in the manual. If you are too lazy to read through it, then it's your own damn fault if you're missing out on those oh so important aspects of the game.

Course, things have change.. games have become more complicated. Still, the tutorial shouldn't tell you everything there is to know. Would be silly.

krjal
4th Jun 2005, 12:51 AM
You don't have to do a tutorial you know.

It's there to help if you need it, not to ruin the game :p

1337
4th Jun 2005, 01:37 AM
Course, things have change.. games have become more complicated. Still, the tutorial shouldn't tell you everything there is to know. Would be silly. It should give you an environment where you can discover things on your own and not have to find another cool player to discover how much damage each weapon does and so forth. It doesn't have to tell you everything.


And I don't like the idea of being required to complete sp stuff inorder to do mp stuff, if anyone was actually implying that.

T2A`
4th Jun 2005, 02:02 AM
Course, things have change.. games have become more complicated. Still, the tutorial shouldn't tell you everything there is to know. Would be silly.There's a difference between telling a n00b that the lightning gun does 70 damage and the shock primary does 45 than telling them that switching between them is a great way to take out a newly-spawned enemy, neither of which is mentioned anywhere in the UT2004 tutorials or booklet.

The point of tutorials is to teach someone the basics. UT2004 does not do this in any way. Basics should NOT have to be learned. You're supposed to take those basic ideas and apply them to learn more advanced stuff. UT2004 gives you the most basic idea of how to play the gametypes ("Grab the ball, pass to teammates, throw it in the goal" is how they do the BR tutorial), and that's it. There's nothing on the key game pieces (movement, weapons, etc) at all. Deplorable.

NeoNite
4th Jun 2005, 11:07 AM
Yeah, I know. It's just that el bouriko went a little too much in detail. That's why I posted ^_^

Selerox
4th Jun 2005, 11:36 AM
-clear explanations about weapons followed by some challenges for EVERY weapons (both primary and secondary fire)
- clear explanations about Shield Gun (or whatever else that will replace it) and challenges for ALL the different kind of shield gun jumps
- clear explanations/examples about dodge-, boost-, sideboost- and wall-jumps with concrete challenges on different places of the different official maps
- clear explanations about adrenaline and comboes
- clear explanations about lift jumps and jump pads followed by some challenges
- and explanations about miscellaneous things such as drop weapon, crouch, double damage, shield, health bonus (it may sound weird to talk about such obvious things as health pick up but how often have you met players on public servers who just rush into the melee without picking up the health vial standing just 5 meters away from them!!!)...

That'd be a pretty good set of tutorials. I don't think a license system would be a good idea at all though. You want players to be able to do what they like right away. Maybe do a set of "awards" inside the tutorial system. It gives new players something to work for as an incentive to do the tutorials, while at the same time allowing them to get stuck into the game as soon as possible.

JaFO
6th Jun 2005, 09:07 AM
Not a restrictive license (ie : nothing like 'complete "movement 101" with Bronze medal to unlock CTF-basics'), but something in between that shows a player which tutorials he has completed and which are still to be done.

If the system is solidly designed then new gametypes/mods/mutators should be able to add their own tutorial-section without having to hack as well.

// El Bouriko
I think you've got too little trust in players' ability to learn on their own.

It's one thing to teach a player how to do a wall-jump and the kind of distance/heigth such a jump can cover..
However telling them where they can use what jump in official maps is overkill. They might not think of searching for 'cool' locations themselves.

The tutorials should give you a feel for the various tasks in the game. They shouldn't spoonfeed you the information ...

EL BOURIKO
6th Jun 2005, 11:33 AM
// El Bouriko
I think you've got too little trust in players' ability to learn on their own.

It's one thing to teach a player how to do a wall-jump and the kind of distance/heigth such a jump can cover..
However telling them where they can use what jump in official maps is overkill. They might not think of searching for 'cool' locations themselves.

The tutorials should give you a feel for the various tasks in the game. They shouldn't spoonfeed you the information ...

I got your point JaFO and your comment makes sense.

anyway IMO something have to be done with the tutorial to help new beginners to improve their learning curve faster. In fact the more the times goes, the more difficult it gets for new beginners to jump into a server without being totally overwhelmed.
I really hope that the next UT will provide the subsequent tutorial that new beginners really need and the one that can be a challenge anyway for more experienced players.

winx
6th Jun 2005, 11:54 AM
The gap between newbies and regular players will never be filled with tutorials. Even with the best tutorials, newbies hoppin on a serv for the first time will STILL get a severe beat and most of them will put the game on the shelf. But, those who continue playing will earn skills much faster if the tutorials are well made since they wont lose time wondering why everyone else can bounce on the walls :lol: .

Selerox
6th Jun 2005, 02:06 PM
Not a restrictive license (ie : nothing like 'complete "movement 101" with Bronze medal to unlock CTF-basics'), but something in between that shows a player which tutorials he has completed and which are still to be done.

Exactly :tup: