RealID act is being voted on tomorrow

[Istigkeit]

The RealID act is a bill proposing a national ID card, which has never been debated or discussed in Congress. So it seems it's going to be voted on without such debate, and'll probably pass.

Please check out UnRealID.com (http://www.unrealid.com/index.html), read what it has to say, and if you feel compelled to, there is an area you may write a comment to your state senator, which will be faxed to them.

[Original9]

I sure am glad there's no real explation of what this thing is.

[Angel_Mapper]

Yay @ smaller government! :y5:

I don't see how this will make us safer.

[O.S.T]

5. Unsafe Roads.

Once upon a time, a driver's license was a license to drive a motor vehicle. Turning driver's licenses into national identity cards will actually make our roads more dangerous: by barring illegal immigrants from getting a driver's license, Real ID means more illegal immigrants will now drive without any training or certification.
yeah, because illegal immigrants are too stupid to drive cars(they don't have any in their home country, they ride on donkeys) and they're really keen on crashing your card, because they want to have problems with the authority

that site is BS and I don't know what that fuzz is all about, because like original9 pointed out, it actually gives no information to what the card really is
is it an ID card like in germany? only a piece of plastic with numbers, name, adress, height and eye color on it, or does it have a little chip and stuff
information would be helpful

[Istigkeit]

Original9 and O.S.T. :

Not sure how much attention you were really paying. There is no 'guaranteed' set of standards for these cards yet, so there's no way to say in detail exactly what is going to be on these cards. No screenshots available.

Here's what it does say:

The Department of Homeland Security is heading up writing out the regulations concerning this. The ID will require a verifiable permanent address from everybody without exception. This alone causes problems for a lot of people (FBI, police, judges, so on). It will need to support a common machine-readable technology, and is likely to have a RFID chip implemented. More identity theft.

The real point is, there is nothing at all this will do to stop terrorism in any way.

yeah, because illegal immigrants are too stupid to drive cars(they don't have any in their home country, they ride on donkeys)

*Sigh*

Alright, I don't see driver's licenses being replaced by this ID, but that's beside the point here.

I'm sure there's as many illegal immigrants that know how to operate cars as there are in America, but we have different laws and regulations than other countries than incoming residents need to be aware of.

[SlayerDragon]

yeah, because illegal immigrants are too stupid to drive cars(they don't have any in their home country, they ride on donkeys) and they're really keen on crashing your card, because they want to have problems with the authority

There's a difference between driving a car and knowing the traffic laws, which is really what you are certified in when you receive a driver's license.

[Bean316]

Anybody who drives anywhere knows that having a driver's license doesn't matter much as far as driving skill (or knowing anything, those tests are BS). If you're a horrible driver, it doesn't matter if you have a license...you're still a horrible driver. Licenses mean about as much to good driving as a...I can't think of a good analogy.

[Sam_The_Man]

that site is BS and I don't know what that fuzz is all about, because like original9 pointed out, it actually gives no information to what the card really is
is it an ID card like in germany? only a piece of plastic with numbers, name, adress, height and eye color on it, or does it have a little chip and stuff
information would be helpful

We know you Germans love shouting "Ihre Papiere, bitte!", your attitude is expected ;) ID cards may be shrugged at in Europe, but the English and Americans have a far stronger attitude that the state is accountable to them, not they to the state.

Face it, ID cards are useless. Supposedly we need them because other proofs of identity, such as passports and drivers licences, are vulnerable to fraud. But how do you get your ID card? By presenting other proofs of identity such as passports and drivers licences...

Labour are currently trying to force ID cards on us in Britain using the usual 'Remember 9/11' crap, though since former Home Secretary David Blunkett resigned to spend more time with someone else's family (that joke will never get old) they've stalled somewhat. My favourite moment came when the top copper in Britain endorsed them, and Blair tried to sell them on the basis that 'the security services want it'. Of course they want it. They're the SECURITY SERVICES. Doctors want more 'free' healthcare, trade unions want more nationalised industries, and policemen and spies want more laws and less freedom. That's the way the state works.

[Jackal]

yeah Driver License are total crap. For my test, all i had to do was drive in an empty parking lot and park in a spot without hitting cones that were far to spread apart. Why even bother? i also had to back up and make a left and right hand turn. THAT'S IT! the whole test took less than 6 mins. (yes i watched the clock). I can't belive how stupid our government is.

[Sam_The_Man]

yeah Driver License are total crap. For my test, all i had to do was drive in an empty parking lot and park in a spot without hitting cones that were far to spread apart. Why even bother? i also had to back up and make a left and right hand turn. THAT'S IT! the whole test took less than 6 mins. (yes i watched the clock). I can't belive how stupid our government is.

Wow. You're bloody lucky, we actually have to spend an hour driving around a town centre and doing reverse parking and other stupid manouevres. Plus a theory test. Plus, thankfully after I passed mine, a 'hazard perception' test where you look at incredibly grainy videos and try to read speed limit signs.

It's still a joke, since the moment you get the big boy's licence you immediately stop driving like you're taught and start driving like everyone else.

[SlayerDragon]

Wow. You're bloody lucky, we actually have to spend an hour driving around a town centre and doing reverse parking and other stupid manouevres. Plus a theory test. Plus, thankfully after I passed mine, a 'hazard perception' test where you look at incredibly grainy videos and try to read speed limit signs.

It's still a joke, since the moment you get the big boy's licence you immediately stop driving like you're taught and start driving like everyone else.

Our friend neglects to mention that you must also attend driving school (at least you do in the state of Maryland). For me it was something like two three hours classes weekly, for three weeks. There were weekly written exams, and you were also required to take three on-the-road driving evaluations under different conditons (daytime, nighttime, highway, etc). I was then also required to get 40 hours of logged driving time with my parents.

[PsychoMoggieBagpuss]

It's still a joke, since the moment you get the big boy's licence you immediately stop driving like you're taught and start driving like everyone else.

Tell me about it. I usually have a couple of close calls each summer.

Damn those sexy woman with their lowcrop tops and short skirts putting me off my driv.............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............beaver

[Lizard Of Oz]

Are your papers in order citizen?

[Istigkeit]

Are your papers in order citizen?

Spend a few hundred on a fake driver's license and passport and bingo, I've got a new fake national ID card. Thank you Uncle Sam!

[O.S.T]

Are your papers in order citizen?
yes, omnibrain
does anyone remember the game the feeble files(or something like that, in german the name was "floyd")

[Cap'n Beeb]

I'm going to construct a refuge for my fellow American forum goers who don't feel the necessity of such an idiotic idea and invasive idea. We'll live like kings. Damn hell ass kings!

[Dragon_Myr]

yeah Driver License are total crap. For my test, all i had to do was drive in an empty parking lot and park in a spot without hitting cones that were far to spread apart. Why even bother? i also had to back up and make a left and right hand turn. THAT'S IT! the whole test took less than 6 mins. (yes i watched the clock). I can't belive how stupid our government is.Exactly! Mine was pathetically easy like that, except all I had to do was drive around a small town, stop at a dozen stop signs and exaggerate the effect, and then parallel park in a huge spot. It's pretty much impossible to fail unless you don't stop or hit a cone. It was maybe 10 minutes and a real joke. X_X


My problem with the illegals is that once one of them gets that drivers license a dozen of them will try to cram into a car designed for only 5 passengers. A DOZEN, and no I'm not kidding. They're all moving around and swerving and throwing crap out the windows. And when they figure out where the highway is look out because they're either going too slow (POS junker vehicle), too fast (50 mph faster than the rest of traffic is absurd), or don't have any idea how to merge and pull out infront of you. I'm in a Jeep Cherokee. If those illegals in a little car pull out infront of me they're goners so I find myself slamming the breaks (when unable to switch lanes) on the local interstate at least once every 3 weeks so there's not a collision (and I drive at the speed of traffic so I'm not flying). And you know most of them don't have insurance either. X_X

I don't care how the government fixes this. Just get the really bad ones off the road. Just because you passed a test doesn't mean you know how to drive. Some illegals know how to drive, but a lot don't or don't do it properly.

[thewalkingman]

My problem with the illegals is that once one of them gets that drivers license a dozen of them will try to cram into a car designed for only 5 passengers. A DOZEN, and no I'm not kidding. They're all moving around and swerving and throwing crap out the windows. And when they figure out where the highway is look out because they're either going too slow (POS junker vehicle), too fast (50 mph faster than the rest of traffic is absurd), or don't have any idea how to merge and pull out infront of you. I'm in a Jeep Cherokee. If those illegals in a little car pull out infront of me they're goners so I find myself slamming the breaks (when unable to switch lanes) on the local interstate at least once every 3 weeks so there's not a collision (and I drive at the speed of traffic so I'm not flying). And you know most of them don't have insurance either. X_X

I don't care how the government fixes this. Just get the really bad ones off the road. Just because you passed a test doesn't mean you know how to drive. Some illegals know how to drive, but a lot don't or don't do it properly.



They usually use vans here in Arizona...

[Dragon_Myr]

They usually use vans here in Arizona...You're lucky then :p Here in PA it's normally small cars. Granted, not all of them use small cars and a few I've noticed do have other vehicles. Normally when I see an irritating one or one that cuts me off they're in a small car though. I speak only from my personal experiences.

[Kaligraphic]

I'm going to construct a refuge for my fellow American forum goers who don't feel the necessity of such an idiotic idea and invasive idea. We'll live like kings. Damn hell ass kings!
Finally someone I'd endorse and he's not running for office. A bloody shame.

[Gumby]

Our friend neglects to mention that you must also attend driving school (at least you do in the state of Maryland). For me it was something like two three hours classes weekly, for three weeks. There were weekly written exams, and you were also required to take three on-the-road driving evaluations under different conditons (daytime, nighttime, highway, etc). I was then also required to get 40 hours of logged driving time with my parents.
Same sort of thing over here as Sam_the_man sorta pointed out - continuing driving lessons and a theory and practical test at the end... People generally won't take the test until about 6-8 weeks of driving... :o

Still, god knows how some awful drivers still pass through the net lol

[tool]

If we want to get rid of the illegal immigration problem we should try putting money into protecting the borders. George Bush's solution? Make the 10 million something illegal immigrants legal without them having to do anything. Keep in mind that these 10 million are protential terrorists, drug dealers, and gun dealers. Mexico is just having a field day with our policies on border protection. Their governament has started releasing infomation on out how to illegally get into the United States. I remember Condaliza Rice saying she supports what Mexico is doing, as does George Bush obviously.

I'm glad Canada has tried its best to keep terrorist out, but it does no good if Mexico isn't willing to pitch in and the United States governament doesn't care. If we have another terrorist attack then we have only ourselfs to blame for allowing it to happen.

[Agent_5]

Please check out UnRealID.com (http://www.unrealid.com/index.html), read what it has to say
I think Bruce Schneier's article on the subject is more informative.
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/05/real_id.html

[Dragon_Myr]

Mexico border security is really pissing me off too. Neither party wants to fix it, and I'm stuck voting in a 2 party system. X_X

[Azura]

and is likely to have a RFID chip implemented. More identity theft.

Wtf ?! RFID is for warehouses, not people O_o .

[JaFO]

RFID are just tags that can be scanned at a distance.

Given that the american government wants to enforce biometric passports for anyone thinking about visiting the USA. I'd say it is safe to say that any 'official' ID will require biometric-data as well, unless of course it's only tourists that need to be treated as terrorists/criminals ...

[8-4-7-2]

ID cards are useful, but they don't help one bit againt terrorism. So issuing them under the guise of anti-terror-fighting and the general xenophobia is the silly part.

Using RFID tags and biometric data is worrying, especially because the USA doesn't have any privacy laws whatsoever. It's just begs for abuse in a system like that.
If the USA had laws regulating the use and sale of databases, people wouldn't worry about "identity theft"

But often the criticism doesn't make such distinctions and just slips into incoherent paranoia and extremes.
ID Cards aren't the inherent evil they are made out to be here and elsewhere. It's about how far it is taken and how their use is regulated

[Bean316]

BTW, all those stinkin illegals...yeah, if you try to get rid of them, you won't have anyone to wash your clothes, clean your buildings, and pick your fruit. So if you visionaries can think of a work force to replace the illegal immigrants from south of the border, well, share the wealth. Because if we tried to just cut them off entirely, our country eats it in the balls.

[JaFO]

// 8-4-7-2
And that's the problem isn't it ?

Best example recently was a Dutch flight that was denied passage through american airspace just because it had two passengers that were on some american 'dangerous terrorist'-list (which they didn't release so no one could have known they persons concerned were 'dangerous').
The airline itself said it hadn't given any information (they weren't even required to as the plane didn't even land in the USA) ...
The flight in question had to return to europe, because it couldn't/wasn't allowed to land in Canada either.

I guess 'innocent until proven guilty' only applies to 'decent' american citizens ...

//
funny how those 'anti-immigrant' folks don't realise that america was created out of illegal immigrants, bastards, terrorists and pretty much anyone else we didn't like.

[Sam_The_Man]

If we want to get rid of the illegal immigration problem we should try putting money into protecting the borders. George Bush's solution? Make the 10 million something illegal immigrants legal without them having to do anything. Keep in mind that these 10 million are protential terrorists, drug dealers, and gun dealers.

:rolleyes: (Hey, well done Tool, I haven't felt like using that smiley in ages)

You do realise that the 200 million 'legal' Americans are also potential terrorists and criminals? And that the "illegal" immigrants are potential workers, entrepreneurs, and public servants? So what makes them any different? Hmm?

Really, we need to start a genocide on people who say 'There aren't enough jobs for immigrants'. This may surprise you, but darkies, Spics, slitty-eyes and towelheads need to eat, drink, sleep, watch TV, and buy Support Our Troops ribbons like the rest of us. They don't steal jobs because their presence creates jobs. If you just shipped a million Americans off to Canada, do you think the unemployent rate would immediately go down 1% and the GDP per capita would go up 0.5%? No? Then neither does the reverse apply.

*edit*

Because this relatively simple concept is apparently stupendously hard to grasp, here's a parable.

Consider the quaint German village of Arschloch. It has 100 adult inhabitants. Unfortunately, because of the recession, there are only 50 jobs to go round.

One day a young Mormon missionary comes to the village and starts... missioning. He is so charismatic that all the employed men and women leave the village to come with him on his spiritual journey. Coincidentally, by a freak of inbred village genetics, they consist of 25 incredibly hot women and 25 ugly, impotent men. The unemployed villagers have gone to see a Falco tribute band and don't get to hear the missionary speak.

When they come back, they find the village deserted. Their initial sadness turns into joy when they realise that now they all have jobs.

Unfortunately, they soon realise the error of their economic naivete. Because there's only half the number of people at the pub, half of the new bar staff have to be let go. Because only half as much food is being bought, half of the villagers working at the post office have to be sacked. Because there's only half as many Germans who aren't having their needs satisfied, half of the new dominatrices have to hang up their whips, and are left with a huge surplus of Scheiße videos.

In depression they join a Neo-Nazi party and eventually die of skin-cancer resulting from their sunburned shaved heads, wishing that they'd followed the wise Mormon missionary, or accepted more immigrants, or something. Anyway, unemployment is not a function of population.

Now do you see?

[TossMonkey]

Tell me about it. I usually have a couple of close calls each summer.

Damn those sexy woman with their lowcrop tops and short skirts putting me off my driv.............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............beaver
**** yeah, I knocked the wingmirror off someones jeep because of some sexy bitch.

[SlayerDragon]

:lol::tup: @ Sam_The_Man

[das_ben]

does anyone remember the game the feeble files(or something like that, in german the name was "floyd")
Yes. One of the funniest games ever.

[GotBeer?]

I had heard about this a while back, but didn't realize it was coming up so soon. This RealID scares the Hell out of me. It's another blow to individual freedom and privacy, and what exactly are they going to require be included in that RFID chip? How long will it be before people start attaching RFID-readers to their PDAs and scanning the crowd? Why not just tattoo that barcode on my forehead so we can get the Apocalypse started already? And the fact that this got attached to an unrelated bill REALLY pisses me off! Let's just hope that this can be appealed or written out of law within the next 3 yrs.

On to the subject of illegals: The whole "give illegals drivers licenses to make sure they are safe drivers and have insurance" thing is total and utter bullcrap! Why would we even entertain such an idea? If an illegal pokes his/her head out in the open, why the Hell don't we snag that person and ship 'em back across the border? Instead, it's "Here's you drivers license and your tax-free job. And don't forget to stop by the local hospital for your free (to you anyway) healthcare. And the local community college will give you a free education. And when you're old enough, feel free to draw Social Security that you never paid a dime into." WTF?!?! And please don't tell me there's no one left in America who will do the jobs the illegals do. I know people born right here in the USA that have worked in meat packing plants and walked fields. If the job exists and pays halfway decently, someone will do it. I would end up paying a little more for that head of lettuce or that roast, but at least I'd know it was because I was paying someone a decent wage who was in turn paying taxes. Oh yeah, and then there's the fact that if an innocent person just looking for a job can sneak across the border, so can a criminal (and how many illegals are currently locked up in US prisons? - another tax drain) or a (God forbid!) terrorist intent on doing us harm.

Here's a fun little link (http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/cap/2003/cap_03-09-25.html) that talks about California's immigrant-related budget problems. Does it mention that the Federal government gives out BILLIONS every year to the states to help cover their illegal immigrant-related costs?

Oh, and here in Iowa the illegals usually cruise the interstate 10 or 20 to a van. :tup:

[MetalMickey]

dey tuk ar jaaaawbs

[Motz]

What do European countries do with ILLEGAL aliens? Would a European country stand for over one million people just walking across their border without papers every year?

[tool]

You do realise that the 200 million 'legal' Americans are also potential terrorists and criminals? And that the "illegal" immigrants are potential workers, entrepreneurs, and public servants? So what makes them any different? Hmm?


Yeah no **** sherlock, but it doesn't matter, this is just making it even easier for terrorist outside of the country to get in and then we have an even worse problem with terrorism.

And yes we do have terrorism within the U.S., but what you are saying is that because we already have terrorist we should welcome even more. Great thinking!

illegal immigrants are also living unfairly in the United States, since they don't have to pay taxes or contribute in anyway to society. Businesses can hire them are lower then minimual wage, screwing over people who actually belong here. They hurt the legal immigrants the most who had to actually work hard to get here and live here.

Why do you think criminals should be given a free ride?


Really, we need to start a genocide on people who say 'There aren't enough jobs for immigrants'. This may surprise you, but darkies, Spics, slitty-eyes and towelheads need to eat, drink, sleep, watch TV, and buy Support Our Troops ribbons like the rest of us. They don't steal jobs because their presence creates jobs. If you just shipped a million Americans off to Canada, do you think the unemployent rate would immediately go down 1% and the GDP per capita would go up 0.5%? No? Then neither does the reverse apply.


That is the most retarded thing you have ever said. How in the hell do they create jobs when they are looking for jobs? They sure as hell can't start up a business, otherwise the governament would find out they would be illegal and send them back to Mexico. If there were an unlimited number of jobs then there wouldn't be a problem.

If they are illegal then they are already breaking the law and don't belong here. Bottom line. If they want to come here then there is a system in place to make them legal and get them started like everyone else. Maybe getting a free ride through life works where you live, but it doesn't in the United States. I don't care what sort of imaginary positive impact you think it has on the United States, it doesn't. Ilegal immigrant only raises the crime, potential for terrorist attacks, and screws over legal immigrants and everyone else.

And you don't even want to know how badly this screws up our schools too when you got 10 or 20 illegal kids from just 1 family going to school unregistered. Our school system is messed up enough as is, and can barely support the children that are actually registered with the school district they live in, much less hundreds of illegal kids. Schools get money based on how many registered students they have, illegal children going to school aren't factored in, causing the school to get less money then it really needs to support everyone.

I'm all for people coming into this country and living here. That is why it was started. But we have check points in place to make things fair for everyone, and to hopefully keep the country as a whole safe. When those check points aren't checked you eventually run into a huge problem.

Ooh and way to go with the racist comments by the way. I guess you don't really care about immigrantion at all, you just wanted to be a troll. :rolleyes:

[Agent_5]

That is the most retarded thing you have ever said. How in the hell do they create jobs when they are looking for jobs?
A larger population brings a larger demand for goods. Guess what's going to happen in order to increase supply to meet the demand?

[tool]

A larger population brings a larger demand for goods. Guess what's going to happen in order to increase supply to meet the demand?

Everything is going to goto hell. You can't just create jobs out of the blue, otherwise we wouldn't have an unemployement problem. People have to be willing to start up businesses and create jobs, and thats harder to do then finding a job. But with this illegal immigrantion problem, both are going to be damn near impossible.

[Agent_5]

Everything is going to goto hell. You can't just create jobs out of the blue, otherwise we wouldn't have an unemployement problem. People have to be willing to start up businesses and create jobs, and thats harder to do then finding a job. But with this illegal immigrantion problem, both are going to be damn near impossible.
Uh-huh. So instead of a buisness expanding to fit the needs, some random guy is magically going to appear with the funding, knowledge, and desire to create a new company for the exact same thing. And by golly are you out of luck if all those positions he had opened are filled because you're going to have to wait for someone else to come along and do the exact same thing. :rolleyes:

[tool]

Uh-huh. So instead of a buisness expanding to fit the needs, some random guy is magically going to appear with the funding, knowledge, and desire to create a new company for the exact same thing. And by golly are you out of luck if all those positions he had opened are filled because you're going to have to wait for someone else to come along and do the exact same thing. :rolleyes:

Fair enough, you could rely on a business to expand, but why would it do that? To meet who's needs? A business is only going to expend to meet its needs. If it doesn't need anymore employee's then it won't hire more employee's just because there needs to be more jobs.

Remember we live in a world where outsourcing to other countries is becoming more common. The U.S. is losing thousands of jobs, and new jobs being created aren't keeping up with what is being lost.

Your idea works in a perfect world, but not in reality.

So I guess you really are a clueless noob.

[Dragon_Myr]

What do European countries do with ILLEGAL aliens? Would a European country stand for over one million people just walking across their border without papers every year?That's a really really good point. I doubt they would stand for it either. But they have an advantage in that most of them have water or mountains on their boarders. It's much easier to prevent immigration problems with a navy or terrain rather than controlling across a huge flat open area of land where we should have towers, helicopters, and jeeps patrolling like crazy. Better yet, stick some tanks down there, but even they couldn't fill the space a big destroyer could. That and most European countries are pretty well off and don't have ridiculous things like Spain producing a document on how to illegally enter the UK. :rolleyes:

[8-4-7-2]

That's misinformed. But I'm not surprised, since such stuff wouldn't be shown in American news

We just had a huge scandal here about our foreign embassies in Eastern Europe giving out visa too easily and thus possibly attracting criminals - and a huge increase in semi-illegal immigration in general. The figures are in the high hundreds of thousands in just a few years. From only one country: Ukraine
Add to that the border to Poland and the Chec Republic which is also a huge problem with illegal immigration. Generally caught immigrants are brought back over the border, where they can make another attempt

As for the visa scandal. There were excactly the cheap, polemic accusations flying around like here. All of them would be criminals, prostitutes, drug dealers and what not.
I agree with our foreign minister. Some of them may be, but the worst we can do is generalize and criminalize them. A lot of them are just poor people looking for jobs and a better life.
Doesn't mean we need or should let them in, but the generalizing, xenophobic way this discussion is conducted in is really sad

[JaFO]

Yeah no **** sherlock, but it doesn't matter, this is just making it even easier for terrorist outside of the country to get in and then we have an even worse problem with terrorism.

And yes we do have terrorism within the U.S., ...
*eh* sure ? Like that Timothy fellow ?
Or what about that guy that committed suicide with a little help from the feds in Waco ?

I'd bet that 90% of your 'terrorists' have been american citizens instead of illegal immigrants ...

You've got far more to fear from your next-door neighbour with his shotgun (and whatever weapons he may have) then you have from any illegal immigrant.

Compared to Ireland, the UK, Spain and Iraq you've got zero terrorists to fear.

[Sam_The_Man]

Tool, every single problem you have brought up with regards to 'illegal' immigration is down not to the immigrants, but to the status forced on them by the government.

Yeah no **** sherlock, but it doesn't matter, this is just making it even easier for terrorist outside of the country to get in and then we have an even worse problem with terrorism.

And yes we do have terrorism within the U.S., but what you are saying is that because we already have terrorist we should welcome even more. Great thinking!


Better stop Americans from breeding, then, because - unless you admit that you consider terrorism a racial issue - it will have exactly the same effect on terrorism.

illegal immigrants are also living unfairly in the United States, since they don't have to pay taxes or contribute in anyway to society. Businesses can hire them are lower then minimual wage, screwing over people who actually belong here. They hurt the legal immigrants the most who had to actually work hard to get here and live here.

Yes, you're right they don't pay taxes, because you don't let them pay taxes.

Why do you think criminals should be given a free ride?

Because I'm a faggot ni**er-loving Yuropan. Happy?

That is the most retarded thing you have ever said. How in the hell do they create jobs when they are looking for jobs? They sure as hell can't start up a business, otherwise the governament would find out they would be illegal and send them back to Mexico.

Because the government makes them illegal. If there were no immigration laws, there would be no problem.

And as I and others have already said, supply increases with demand.

And you don't even want to know how badly this screws up our schools too when you got 10 or 20 illegal kids from just 1 family going to school unregistered. Our school system is messed up enough as is, and can barely support the children that are actually registered with the school district they live in, much less hundreds of illegal kids. Schools get money based on how many registered students they have, illegal children going to school aren't factored in, causing the school to get less money then it really needs to support everyone.

Again, this wouldn't be a factor if 'illegal' immigration didn't exist. Everyone would be registered, and because the government knew how many people were coming over the border - and how much taxes they would be paying because they would be allowed to exist legally - it would be able to plan school expansion accordingly.

Ooh and way to go with the racist comments by the way. I guess you don't really care about immigrantion at all, you just wanted to be a troll. :rolleyes:

Takes a very speshul mind to argue for discrimination on the grounds of nationality and then call me a racist.

[MetalMickey]

Well, the RealID act passed the US senate 100-0. Oh dear.

[Balton]

Consider the quaint German village of Arschloch.


way too deep for tool ;)

[edhe]

ID cards for the US \o/

Impeachment yet?

[Cap'n Beeb]

Tool flailed about on his keyboard to type:

And yes we do have terrorism within the U.S.



We do? I must've missed that. Unless you're talking about the Oklahoma City bombing way back when...

[tool]

*eh* sure ? Like that Timothy fellow ?
Or what about that guy that committed suicide with a little help from the feds in Waco ?

I'd bet that 90% of your 'terrorists' have been american citizens instead of illegal immigrants ...

You've got far more to fear from your next-door neighbour with his shotgun (and whatever weapons he may have) then you have from any illegal immigrant.

Compared to Ireland, the UK, Spain and Iraq you've got zero terrorists to fear.

So just because we have American terrorist we should do nothing to prevent the possible increase of more terrorist, both within America and new terrorist coming into America like what happened with 9/11? Are you and Sam_the_Man sharing the same stupidity or something?

This is just as bad as pretending jobs are created out of thin air to meet the demand of everyone needing a job. Funny that we still got unemployement when according to sam who is supposely right about everything, there is no such thing as unemployement ever, anywhere in the world, because jobs are just created out of no where to meet demand.


Because the government makes them illegal. If there were no immigration laws, there would be no problem.


May aswell just make crime legal too, and give all those criminals a clean slate. Do that then there isn't a crime problem. Problem solved! Except that is the dumbest idea ever, but only you would come up with something like that.

Are you even thinking? Do you not realize that illegal immigrantion has the potential to increase crime and infact is? Ooh but of course why would you care? This is just another step in your "EVERY1 N AMERICA IZ STOOPID N SHOULD DIE LAFFO!" crusade.


Tool, every single problem you have brought up with regards to 'illegal' immigration is down not to the immigrants, but to the status forced on them by the government.


Tell that to all the legal immigrants who got into to the United States fairly. Illegal immigrants are illegal by choice, not because it was some how forced on them. In your imaginary world it was maybe. But again I stress the point that we live in reality where thats not the case. You jump that fense from another country, no matter where it is, you are a illegal immigrant. If you want to be legal then you gotta go through the process like everyone else to become a citizen here.

Most of them come over here illegally because they have something to hide. you cant just ignore the fact that illegal immigrant also includes crime, including selling weapons, drugs and terrorism. Not all illegal immigrants are bad, a lot come here with good intentions, but it doesn't matter. Illegal immigrant is what it is. If they want to live here they have to do it like everyone else.

[tool]

We do? I must've missed that. Unless you're talking about the Oklahoma City bombing way back when...

What you never heard of Neo-Nazi's and the KKK? What about elf which is a ecoterrorist group in the U.S.? Although they are just a bunch of dumb hippys who usually just spray paint hummers.

Terrorism is more then just car bombings, and yelling allah and jihad you know.

[JaFO]

Sure you should try something, except threatening countries with violence as your government has been doing (even before 11-9 happened). It hasn't worked and I'd even say it's created a breedingground for terrorists ...

You should also stop being such hypocrites as well (why can the USA & Israel have nuclear weapons while Korea and Iran can't ?) ...

[tool]

Sure you should try something, except threatening countries with violence as your government has been doing (even before 11-9 happened). It hasn't worked and I'd even say it's created a breedingground for terrorists ...

You should also stop being such hypocrites as well (why can the USA & Israel have nuclear weapons while Korea and Iran can't ?) ...

God damn one thing I can actually agree with!

[Sam_The_Man]

This is just as bad as pretending jobs are created out of thin air to meet the demand of everyone needing a job. Funny that we still got unemployement when according to sam who is supposely right about everything,

You got something right at last. I propose we make this an historic anniversary.

there is no such thing as unemployement ever, anywhere in the world, because jobs are just created out of no where to meet demand.

Unemployment - at least long-term unemployment - is created from geographical imbalances, rigid wages, business cycles, and various other factors: not the population being too big for a limited number of jobs available in the country, as you claim. No country has EVER experienced long-term or even medium-term unemployment as a result of large increases in population.

May aswell just make crime legal too, and give all those criminals a clean slate. Do that then there isn't a crime problem. Problem solved! Except that is the dumbest idea ever, but only you would come up with something like that.

I rather think you came up with it. My idea is to simply remove the restrictions that prevent 'illegals' from working, starting up businesses or paying taxes. The impression I got was that your main beef with them was that they didn't do any of the above.

Are you even thinking? Do you not realize that illegal immigrantion has the potential to increase crime and infact is?

If there are increased rates of criminality among immigrants, it's because they are prevented from getting real jobs and becoming responsible citizens. Do you dispute this, or do you seriously claim that there is something in Mexicans' moral makeup that makes them more likely to be criminals than Americans?

[tool]

If there are increased rates of criminality among immigrants, it's because they are prevented from getting real jobs and becoming responsible citizens. Do you dispute this, or do you seriously claim that there is something in Mexicans' moral makeup that makes them more likely to be criminals than Americans?


I'm saying that there are illegal immigrants who come here with the intent to do illegal things. Ignore the fact that the illegal immigrants with good intentions are already breaking a law by being in the U.S.. In all honesty they don't matter. If there are illegal immigrants coming in here with drugs, and guns to sell (which there are) then that is adding to the problem.

I think that we should help illegal immigrants who are serious about becoming U.S. citizens. But waving a magical wand that just makes EVERYONE legal is a horrible idea. Not all illegal immigrants are good people.

I lived in Arizona for a while, I know all about this problem. There wasnt a day that went by on the news where you didn't hear about some gang from mexico coming into the united states and kidnapping people or killing people. Or hear about a drug raid or drug smuggling between Mexico and the U.S.

You don't live in the U.S., so you have no idea what is really going on. The problems with the Mexico border are incredibly out of hand. Taking extreme measures hurts the people who want to live here, but you have to protect yourself too.

[Azura]

RFID are just tags that can be scanned at a distance.

Just ? I'd prefer to know that someone is checking my identity. This is something waiting to be abused. RFID is used in warehouses to better check stocks (it's an expensive system in passing). You can check the id of people by simply walking up to them and asking papers and, personally, I'd prefer not being waved at with an oversized barcode reader thingy :P .

http://www.unrealid.com/what.html

If Real ID passes the Senate, our nation will join the ranks of the old Soviet Union, Communist China, and Vietnam by issuing its citizens a national ID card.

So, must one assume that Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Spain and other countries are to be added to the list ? After all, these countries all impose a national ID card. Laughable statement :P . Every country in the world will end up imposing an ID card at one time or the other. Get used to the idea.

[el Gato]

NC has big issues with this.

Industries such as agriculture, hospitality and construction rely heavily on this growing labor pool because the workers are willing to pick tobacco, clean tables, hang drywall and perform other unglamorous jobs for long hours at low wages. (Very true.)

from this article on NC's illegal immigrant issues (http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=92448).

There are plenty of advocates here pushing for illegal immigrant rights. Like employee-sponsored health care, public assistance, and in-state tuition rates for college/universities. Yet most pay no taxes...

[tool]

Does anyone know the exact process one would have to go through to become a legal immigrant in the U.S.?

[das_ben]

I'm saying that there are illegal immigrants who come here with the intent to do illegal things.
And Sam is saying that there are Americans doing exactly the same. Crime isn't a problem caused by immigration. Crime is a problem mostly caused by poverty, in most of the cases illegal immigration results in poverty. Sam's solution: don't restrict immigration and let the markets handle itself. Is it that hard to understand our favourite capitalist pig? ;)

[Bean316]

dey tuk ar jaaaawbs

Duh duh duuurrrrrrr!

[O.S.T]

Does anyone know the exact process one would have to go through to become a legal immigrant in the U.S.?
afaik you have to fill in a form, send it to some authority and if you're lucky your name goes into a lottery for a greencard

yes, it's a lottery, names get chosen randomly and with a bit luck, you're one of 50,000 people who can live in the USA for the next 2 years :tup:

ofcourse only if none of your family members are american, then there's some other process, but I got tired of reading

[tool]

And Sam is saying that there are Americans doing exactly the same. Crime isn't a problem caused by immigration. Crime is a problem mostly caused by poverty, in most of the cases illegal immigration results in poverty. Sam's solution: don't restrict immigration and let the markets handle itself. Is it that hard to understand our favourite capitalist pig? ;)

yes I know what he is saying, but illegal immigration is only going to add to the crime. And that is my concern. I can partly agree with no restricting illegal immigration, but you still gotta do something about all the drug and weapon smuggling that is coming into the U.S. from Mexico through illegal immigration. There is a good and bad side to this that Sam isn't seeing.

How do we help illegal immigrants not be in poverty anyways? I would like to see immigrants who want to seriously live here get the help they need to get educated if they need it and get a good job. But that sort of thing would be very expensive. On the other hand though if we can spend trillians of dollars on a silly war then I don't see why we can't spend trillians of dollars on immigration. But according to the guys over at congress and the white house that is impossible. What a load of crap though.

[Sam_The_Man]

So, must one assume that Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Spain and other countries are to be added to the list ? After all, these countries all impose a national ID card.

Well, depends how you define the list. If the list is of "tyrannical and repressive countries", then no. If the list is of "countries where people serve the government instead of vice versa", then yes.

The argument trotted out at this point is usually "People carry driving licences and credit cards - why should they worry about ID cards?" (usually followed by "do they have something to hide?" in the best Daily Mail tradition). The answer is easy - driving licences allow you to drive, credit cards allow you to pay for things without carrying cash around. What do ID cards allow you to do? Exist, so long as the state's benevolence allows it?

[Istigkeit]

What do ID cards allow you to do? Exist, so long as the state's benevolence allows it?

They do nothing of value. Besides, if you don't have one, you won't be able to travel. No plane, no Amtrak.

It passed 100-0 because it was slipped into 'must pass' legislature on military spending for Iraq. Same bullsh*t they pulled with the Patriot Act.

This only adds more government, not less, which I thought Republicans were against. If there's already a problem with a million illegals coming into this country, driving and working illegally, HOW THE HELL is enforcing more conditions for ID's going to make them stop? Same old useless border patrols, same old people willing to employ them.

There's also no government funding set aside for it. They're leaving it up to the individual states to figure out themselves how to pay for it. Bravo.

[Vers Vlees]

@ Azura yes the Netherlands have recently inplemented a ID LAW. All persons from the age of 14 must carry a Passport or EU ID card. The Police can ask for it and if you cant Id yourself they will fine for 50 euro. (25 if you are young punk). Offcourse they implemented this law for safety and against Terrorism. Offcourse the only ones the police harrass for ID's are immigrants(especially Muslims) and Youths. Hell I almost got killed when a police car passed by the stop 2 ppl for their ID's.
Not the mention the extra income the state will get for ppl buying IDcards. (those things dont come cheap 38 Euro for a new passport not the mention the waiting time for it) and our police men have a fine qouta over here. If they dont meet the qouta demands The goverment wont give them extra funds(no really everytime the police doesnt seem to fill qouta they simpy go out on a Fining spree) Ofcourse the ID law will assist them with keeping up to the fine qouta. Just harass some poor people who cant afford Passports and kaching!
Id law for safety pfffttt safety my ass sounds more like easy money for the state

[JaFO]

Actually there's no need to carry an official ID (like a passport).
We only need to be able to show the ID when we're asked to.
On top of that police are required to ID themselves as well (more info : http://www.gelijkoversteken.org/ ).

It isn't "extra" income either, because you need an official ID to vote and at work anyway ...

[Vers Vlees]

Actually there's no need to carry an official ID (like a passport).
We only need to be able to show the ID when we're asked to.
On top of that police are required to ID themselves as well (more info : http://www.gelijkoversteken.org/ ).

It isn't "extra" income either, because you need an official ID to vote and at work anyway ...

yeah but do you carry your Passport when you walk the streets. Unless you have the smaller Euro ID card which fits in your wallet. dont forget that there are childeren until 15 year who dont have a own pasport but are written in their parents passport. Now with the ID law kids need to get their own personal ID's. Those things dont come cheap.
Yes I do see this fining thing as a extra income but that is because off that retarted Fine Qouta (really drop the qouta everytime I see a police man giving a fine I dont see a police man correcting someone but trying to fill his/her qouta)

[SomewhatSuicidal]

The real issue here is not whether one exists, but how it is used. Not that I like the idea, and one certainly has to look out for any governmental attempts to downplay it, but we really cannot predict what will come of it...yet.

*edit* It pisses me off when people piggyback bills, and anyone who supports minimized government would be hypocritical voting for it.

P.S. Legislative term limits anyone? :o

[Beowolf]

I think this idea is incredibly stupid. First off, I don't think it will really help to prevent terrorism. Terrorists can be citizens, too.

Also, they might have your SS # on your card, also. Well, it's not incredibly hard for a dedicated person to hack into the short range radio frequencies these cards would run on and get someones SS#.

And, they propose to keep all of this data into one new, giant database. Again, the hacker threat, plus a lot of the info in the individual state databases is already flawed.

[JaFO]

*eh* I guess you're underestimating the reality of the situation.
Most people gladly give away there phonenumbers, e-mail as well as snail-mail addresses, and birthdates just to get a discount at a shop.
Also don't forget all the info you've had to give to your local bank & insurance-companies.

On top of that there's bluetooth mobile phones. I wonder how many people think about the security-issues when they use those devices ...

In essence this means that there's far more than your ss# out in the open already and it is in the hands of people with less morals than governments ...

Never mind that each state inventing its own form of Id is pretty ridiculous and a complete waste of money/resources, when compared to a single national Id.

// vers vlees :
You don't need both passport & Id-card. Either one will suffice and the Id-card is cheaper and good enough for most purposes (provided you don't plan to travel outside of europe)...
Cost of these items depends on where you live (Amsterdam & the like probably are very expensive, smaller cities ought to be cheaper).
It's only € 39 (or 32 if you need the Id card) every 5 years, granted it's more expensive than a drivers' license (€ 25), but not that much ...

[togmkn]

If I hear one more word about unconstitutional bull****, I'm gonna roll up the Constitution and smoke it. People get so hung up about how it's betraying their rights and about how they have civil liberties, which just makes me want to kill someone. Democracy gives you freedoms, but the right to be a blithering idiot shouldn't be among them. This isn't a dictatorship; it's not like "the man" is out to get you.

Perhaps I shouldn't be speaking in these matters due to the fact that I don't fully understand this RealID proposition, but that is merely because I didn't read the full article. Personally, I think it'd be a great idea to have everybody's fingerprints and a DNA sample on record from birth. Crime would be affected, for one thing. This RealID may be one step towards that. Eh, so that's violating your "civil liberties." Well, it'd sure as hell make me think twice before killing you. But I'd still do it :)

Anyways, just as long as it isn't taken to the extent of Communism, this could be a very good thing.
the wise Mormon missionary
WOOT, there's an oxymoron! Oh...maybe I should just shut my mouth right about now...

[Lizard Of Oz]

This "RealID" thing will do nothing to hinder terrorism, crime, or illegal immigration... nothing. It only serves to limit freedom and privacy of honest, law biding citizens.

It brings us one step closer to a police state.

Remember that freedom is rarely lost in an instant, but rather, in small increments.

"Those that would sacrifice freedom for security neither get nor deserve either”.

-T jefferson

[SomewhatSuicidal]

I thought that was B. Franklin who said that, lizard.

[togmkn]

If done properly it would be beneficial. However, I dunno if they'll do it right. Sometimes I'm glad I don't have a say in these things, less to worry about :) Leave it to the idiots who think they aren't. Idiots, that is.

[Kaligraphic]

I need to find a couple of cheap, small, easily concealable RFID readers.

To... triangulate the position of... inventory. Yeah, that's it.

[Lizard Of Oz]

I thought that was B. Franklin who said that, lizard.

It's been credited to Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and Abraham Lincoln. I gave up and just credited it to the guy who I think is the most likely to have said it.

[PsychoMoggieBagpuss]

I'm saying that there are illegal immigrants who come here with the intent to do illegal things. Ignore the fact that the illegal immigrants with good intentions are already breaking a law by being in the U.S.. In all honesty they don't matter. If there are illegal immigrants coming in here with drugs, and guns to sell (which there are) then that is adding to the problem.
Really?

And here's me thinking that they wanted a job.

[Sam_The_Man]

If I hear one more word about unconstitutional bull****, I'm gonna roll up the Constitution and smoke it. People get so hung up about how it's betraying their rights and about how they have civil liberties, which just makes me want to kill someone. Democracy gives you freedoms, but the right to be a blithering idiot shouldn't be among them. This isn't a dictatorship; it's not like "the man" is out to get you.

"The man" is always out to get you. That is his purpose. The first goal of every state - which consists mainly of bureaucrats, remember, not elected officials - is to get more and more power. They don't necessarily have to use it to harm people - in fact, they don't even need to. The important thing for them is that it's there, rather like churches or insurance.

Perhaps I shouldn't be speaking in these matters due to the fact that I don't fully understand this RealID proposition, but that is merely because I didn't read the full article. Personally, I think it'd be a great idea to have everybody's fingerprints and a DNA sample on record from birth. Crime would be affected, for one thing.

Yeah, because if you're not a terrorist or a criminal, what do you have to fear, eh?

Your memory is short if you don't remember the 72-year-old British man who was arrested by the FBI (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2799791.stm) because a criminal had stolen his identity.

Anyways, just as long as it isn't taken to the extent of Communism, this could be a very good thing.

I find it amazing that you refer to the governments as idiots and yet trust them to not misuse their power forever and ever. If this law is passed, it will probably not go away for 100 or 200 years. Do you trust the 'idiots' to remain benevolent for all that time?

[Metakill]

Truth has been made irrelevent.

[O.S.T]

good thing about it:
you'll get used to it :)

bad thing:
you shouldn't get used to it

[Scumgrief]

"Those that would sacrifice freedom for security neither get nor deserve either”.
here here

Welcome to 1984 ladies. Lube up at the door & make sure your papers are in order.

How Real ID will affect you (http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html)

A big fat finger to those of you that love to vote for & support fascist regimes because "duuurrr it'll make us safer from the terrorists." Keep driving your 5-ton SUV's, building Wal-Marts, and herding us into thought-prison you f$%*ing babies.

While you're researching this, RFID, and other biometric technology that the government will want to stick up your ass in the next few years, be sure to check out a company called Digital Angel & the Verichip technology.

In case you're having trouble wondering why I'd mention those technologies, read a little here (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44174).

Isn't American Gladiators on? I'm so glad we're free...

[togmkn]

Oh...maybe I should just shut my mouth right about now...
I'd like to second that...:)

[Inuyasha]

It will make us safer! It really will! They can hike taxes and take more of our money away, which means we do less and sit on our asses at home! Therefor the government is keeping us safer... or something along those lines...

Actually, it's just going to drain more funds and cause tax hikes, which will cause more problems. I mean come on, they're already charging I think it's $1.09 in taxes on gas in NV. Whatever happened to the .07% sales tax thing?

[Cap'n Beeb]

You're worried about gas prices when there are more pressing matters at hand? Good god, you really are fscked in the head.

[JonAzz]

wow i missed this thread... and completely missed this... what the ****!!!! I think bush has been smoking a little to much crack over there... what is next ****ing bar codes on our arms, or even worse something like in minority report were no matter where you do you get your retina scanned from up to a few meters away...

/cheer for fascism... :o


*points to avatar*

[Zarkazm]

illegal immigrants are also living unfairly in the United StatesThe only unfair thing I can see is that you were born in the US while they have to make an effort to get there.

Maybe getting a free ride through life works where you live, but it doesn't in the United States.I don't see how being an illegal immigrant in the US constitutes a free ride even half as much as being tool does. :p


Actually there's no need to carry an official ID (like a passport).
We only need to be able to show the ID when we're asked to.How would you show it without carrying it in the first place?

[Sam_The_Man]

How would you show it without carrying it in the first place?

Maybe they can implant it in our forehead. I'm sure I read about that somewhere.