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-AEnubis-
3rd May 2005, 03:14 AM
Ok, so I've made multiple comments on this, and not gotten any real responses, almost as though my suggestion is so ludicrous to people that they simply can't concieve them taking this route.

After hearing the removal of the minigun, and the LtG, two of the three most infamous weapons in the game, I'm seeing as how this would severely limit the amount of hitscan left. It has been said that some iteration of the Sniper Rifle will remain, but as far as I know, no information as to the speicifics of how it will compare to current have been revealed.

Bearing that information in mind, I'm thinkin' it would be highly possible that the next Sniper Rifle could very well not be hit-scan. It may be projectile (see halo). I'm not sure what I'm really out to ask here, whether it be "how would that make you feel", or "would you prefer that", or if you can actually be objective, and disregard how you feel "do you think epic might do that". So mostly I guess I'm just asking for thoughts in general.

edhe
3rd May 2005, 05:30 AM
I want the LtG, with a better sound to it all :)

Ignotium
3rd May 2005, 12:10 PM
LtG for me is UNREMOVABLE, but w/e

*sighs*

-AEnubis-
3rd May 2005, 12:33 PM
I actually kinda hoped this thread would go somewhere bearing in mind the knowledge that the LtG is gone... I thought it was an awesome concept for a weapon too, but...

Discord
3rd May 2005, 12:46 PM
"do you think epic might do that"

I dunno man, sometimes the truth about what Epic might do is way stranger than fiction.

Factors against:

It would be kinda pointless to have a non- hitscan sniper weapon in a game that also uses a dodge move (which by all indications will not be removed). Also, the maps got freakin' huge in UT2kX, and I expect they'll only get freakin' huger next time out... a sniper projectile that took 3 sec to traverse the map would be like teats on a boar hog.

Factors in favor:

Well, they said they want more "in your face" CQB- type stuff :lol:. Plus, if the sniper and shock are the only two hitscan weapons available (alt- link hardly counts in this case), a hitscan sniper could generate a serious case of "awp- whore syndrome." Edit: Hey, just occurred to me that the Enforcers are probably hitscan... no conefire perhaps? That would be awesome sauce...


I wouldn't be surprised to see a projectile sniper in the classic gamemodes (smaller maps) and a hitscan sniper in ONS and CON... maybe? Dunno. At any rate, I certainly hope they've got some plans to minimize the "dud" projectile problem, otherwise it could all get really crappy in a hurry. :/

Personally, I hated the Halo sniper and wouldn't touch the damn thing. :p

JohnDoe641
3rd May 2005, 01:10 PM
Discord']At any rate, I certainly hope they've got some plans to minimize the "dud" projectile problem, otherwise it could all get really crappy in a hurry. :/
Well it's basically an Unreal engine bug, since it's been in every single nreal engine game from Unreal to Tribes Vengance. So it's probably going to be in Envy. :c

What I hope they do is relize that the sniper rifle as a plain old ballistic weapon which is quite boring and out of place. Hopefully the Sniper will be a hybrid of the LtG and the SR and it will shoot a Tarydium slug like with an electric blue trail with no daughter sparks that hurt the opponent like the LtG does now.

I don't know if it should be hitscan, but whatever it is, it's got to be nice. :)

The_Head
3rd May 2005, 01:22 PM
I could put up with it not being hitscan. So long as it moves seriously fast. See Chaos UT Sniper Rifle (non rpg)

I would prefer it if they brought back the UT99 sniper.

Selerox
3rd May 2005, 02:10 PM
I'm seeing as how this would severely limit the amount of hitscan left.

That's the idea. In UT200x, the balance between hitscan and ballistic weapons has shifted massivly in favour of hitscan. Anything that redresses the balance is good in my book. As for a ballstic SR? I wouldn't mind. It'd be better than the point and click gaming we have now.

-AEnubis-
3rd May 2005, 02:14 PM
That's the idea. In UT200x, the balance between hitscan and ballistic weapons has shifted massivly in favour of hitscan. Anything that redresses the balance is good in my book. As for a ballstic SR? I wouldn't mind. It'd be better than the point and click gaming we have now.

:tup:

I'm hoping that is the case, and as well, it will make it "uniqe" enough sitting next to the ASMD that they could change aspects of the ASMD prime fire without people yelling "It's too much like the sniper".

Selerox
3rd May 2005, 02:24 PM
I would prefer it if they brought back the UT99 sniper.

Never, ever going to happen. That weapon was so unbalanced it wasn't even funny. As for the ASMD, having a firing mechanism like the UT99 one would be far better, but keep the combo UT200x style.

NeoNite
3rd May 2005, 04:04 PM
Not funny when it was used against you, but once you were using it...

1337
3rd May 2005, 04:04 PM
I'd like to see a slower rof and increased damage for all weapons including sniper. And make the weapon effects even more pretty.

-AEnubis-
4th May 2005, 01:48 AM
When you used it bah. I didn't use it because I liked keeping the game a challenge. That and if I was in a ping position to make good use of it, I was whoreing it, because pings were never even in that game. No better way to piss everyone off, and scare them away then to have a 30ms ping advantage on everyone, and whore hitscan. Not to mention, they didn't gib, so that sux. At least with LtG I had that on overkill damage.

I think a projectile SR, and a slowed prime fire on the ASMD, accompanied with Stinger instead of Mini is going to be way sweet. I'm also really keen on the idea of the possbility (no matter how improbable) of being able to hear a sniper bullet rap off, and duck so the headshot misses. How pimp will that look in videos.

Kronon
4th May 2005, 02:00 AM
Even the slowest bullet moves faster than the sound, so ducking when you hear the bang is usually pretty futile :)

Making hitscan weapons nonhitscan also puts more load on the server. On the other hand, if you have visible tracers of the bullet, its only natural that the bullet isnt hitscan.

/Kronon

-AEnubis-
4th May 2005, 02:14 AM
Even the slowest bullet moves faster than the sound, so ducking when you hear the bang is usually pretty futile :)

In real life. Unless they intentionall emulate that, sound is instantaneous if you are in range of it. This is Unreal Life :D

T2A`
4th May 2005, 02:24 AM
F*ck a sniper rifle. I want my damn lightning back.

edhe
4th May 2005, 04:05 AM
If there was to be the sniper rifle then may it please for the love of god actually look cool.

And be a tracer round, and have far less switch time than the current one, an have serious karma when killed & not being a headshot to spin the corpse..

NeoNite
4th May 2005, 06:08 AM
All I can say is, when I played dm online and ran into a sniper rifle/shock/minigun I used it one EVERBODY in sight.

Didn't matter if it was an LPB, or someone with a high ping.
They're targets. I got a weapon available. If I don't pick it up, someone else will and might frag me with it.

(you get the idea)

Challenge, challenge. To me it was a fragathon.
And still is. Except nowadays, I kill tons of monsters.

(which is tbh more fun :hmm:... as silly as it may sound)

Rankz
4th May 2005, 11:30 AM
Everybody wanted the sniper back into Unreal and it came into UT2k4. Now half of us don't want a sniper. Honestly, I think Epic upon realising that the sniper gun would not fit well into the 'futuristic' weapon feel left it out of UT2k3 and replaced it with the LTG. The LTG has a cool look and a head shot with it has never been sweeter [crispy head]. I don't mind seeing the sniper go but please leave the LTG in the game. It makes me wonder whether if the enforcers return to UT:Envy, will they feel out of place?

BooGiTyBoY
4th May 2005, 11:48 AM
On the other hand, if you have visible tracers of the bullet, its only natural that the bullet isnt hitscan.

The LtG, Shock Primary, and Minigun especially all have what could be considered "tracers"



Rankz people wanted the UT sniper back, not the P.O.S. weapon Epic tried to pass off on us in 2k4.

Hopefully the Sniper will be a hybrid of the LtG and the SR and it will shoot a Tarydium slug like with an electric blue trail

I'm with JD on this one. If it's implemented PROPERLY in the game. (Mind you my idea/opinion of "properly" is most likely different from some of you) The biggest gripe with the old sniper was the fact you couldn't tell where the heck the shots were coming from and was too 'camper-friendly, which they fixed with the LtG's "zot". If they fixed the damage/ROF ratio of "today's" sniper, got rid of that stupid smoke effect, and had some sort of tracer on it, I'm all for it.

Switch`
4th May 2005, 01:34 PM
Bearing that information in mind, I'm thinkin' it would be highly possible that the next Sniper Rifle could very well not be hit-scan.
http://www.barrettrifles.com/military/images/109b.jpg (http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_200481522.asp)
HELL YEA!

I want to blow s*** up with style and frag nubs in many humiliating ways. Such sniper.. uhh.. cannon complete with selection of various ammo - think Unreal 2 grenade launcher - could do the job and be fun too.

carmatic
4th May 2005, 01:50 PM
shoulder cannon... hmm...

Ignotium
4th May 2005, 01:59 PM
Holly Shet

Like T2A said
Fuk sniper gimme Litening

carmatic
4th May 2005, 07:40 PM
the xm109 kinda works more like something that would make a person a spma, with ballistics and stuff going on... well, maybe the stealth of not leaving a trail with the bullet is well worth it if people can get to grips with aiming like an spma from first person, like the spma currently is also hidden with only the floating eye visible to enemies most of the time...

edhe
5th May 2005, 04:27 AM
Bullets are boring.

I always found the sniper to be the most boring UT weapon, which is why it took me until days in 1v1 to use it regularly and with effect - It's just so DULL. Like the CS weapons, all those f'in realism mods that should be harvested and turned into mulched shrapnel for feeding to the llamas.

It's good to have a 'sniping weapon' but a bullet sniper rifle is just boring. The LtG was fun, it'd be nice to have some kind of LtG/Railgun type of thing, a nice powerful pretty gun with a good solid sound.

There can be alternatives in the UT universe - tarydium, ion, asmd - can all be adapted into a new 'unreal' weapon.. but ffs bullets are dull.


p.s. enforcers will be a welcome return, they're useful and fun as starter weapons, despite being bullety :p

-AEnubis-
5th May 2005, 04:48 AM
I'm with you 100% edhe... I just can't fathom lightning not being hit-scan...

If it would have to be hit-scan, I fear they'd have to nerf it pretty bad (see cSR) to balance it. Maybe current LtG with a longer switch away delay, and maybe longer RoF, but blow that idea by anyone, and they'll have a fit if they like it currently.

edhe
5th May 2005, 06:02 AM
I'd rather have a longer firetime than any change to weapon switching.

Like a charge time once you've pressed fire - maybe even with slight alternations in the time, especially in relation to the amount of time you've had it selected (in reverse to time on, or not - quick switch quick fire like now, or long time hold, quick fire..sniper style?)

That kinda thing would suit the leccy/ion style of logic, and would remain hitscan, just not straight off the input... kinda like ping latency really.

?

XMP.Arc
5th May 2005, 12:53 PM
i know this may be a bit heretical but how bout the sniper rifle as displayed in XMP- thought it was quite well done and very effective

-AEnubis-
5th May 2005, 03:11 PM
You mean like a load up time ala the UT flak cannon? That could be something to help balance it.

I just think the way everyone uses it as a first strike weapon, it would make more sense to increase the switch away time on it. One thing I like about the cSR, is the ROF is better then the LtG, but since the switch away time is so nasty, if you're in a situation where it is "the gun to use", then you keep doing so, and if someone rushes your position, then it wasn't as easy to ditch it quick, and adjust to the loss of that position. Vs LtG, by the time you think about charging it, there is already a flak bomb splitting the distance.

Rails were good in Q3, and if there was an SG in Q3, it'd be way more balanced, now anyways, vs how low pings are.

T2A`
5th May 2005, 03:23 PM
p.s. enforcers will be a welcome return, they're useful and fun as starter weapons, despite being bullety :pProbably has something to do with bustin' a cap gangsta' style. :D

Granted, they don't necessarily have to be bullety so that might not be an issue anyway. As long as they get rid of that f*cking assrifle, I don't really care what replaces it.

[DF]phalanx
5th May 2005, 06:28 PM
enforcers ruled u could do 25 dmg if ya hit the rite places in UT99, the AR was like shooting a pea shooter at a tank :/

Radiosity
5th May 2005, 06:55 PM
it'd be nice to have some kind of LtG/Railgun type of thing, a nice powerful pretty gun with a good solid sound.


I wasn't intending to have a sniper weapon in my hybrid weapons pack... however, I am now of the opinion that something like this would be way cool, so I'm going to model and code a tarydium (taridium? I can never remember the correct spelling) sniper rifle :D

Olga
5th May 2005, 09:15 PM
Tarydium sir

Black_Seeds
5th May 2005, 11:52 PM
F*ck a sniper rifle. I want my damn lightning back.


:stupid:

gregori
6th May 2005, 09:51 AM
rate fire of the LG needed to be about as fast as the ut99 rifle,
the effect for LG sucked and it sounded so under powered, If you have lightning gun you should hear a bleeding THUNDEROUS crash at least. Otherwise it was a very good idea for a weapon, should be implemented better, a projectile sniper would suck, you shouldn't be able dodge sniper fire at all, it would slow the game

edhe
6th May 2005, 10:15 AM
UT99 fire rate was stupidly fast, too fast. Everyone thinks that who's played a good amount of competitive gaming.

Selerox
6th May 2005, 10:18 AM
rate fire of the LG needed to be about as fast as the ut99 rifle

No, it shouldn't. One of the reasons the UT99 SR was so unbalanced was the dumbass rate of fire. UT200x had it about right with the Lightning Gun. Epic are smart enough not to make the SR as stupidly powerful as it was in UT99.

gregori
6th May 2005, 10:24 AM
not smart enough,The LG is useless unless your good at hit scanwapons it's no fun, i don't use it ever. all the other super spammy weapons in UT99 balanced the rifle out, and the combat was close combat, the arena where small, no killing dots in the distance.
The movements are so fast in UT2kx that wepons needed to be more powerfull for flow of gameplay, UT2kx plays to slowly

Discord
6th May 2005, 10:44 AM
not smart enough,The LG is useless unless your good at hit scanwapons it's no fun, i don't use it ever.

You're missing something, then. It took me a while to warm up to the LG as well, but once I did it made a lot of difference for me.

What keeps the LG from being useless is the weapon switch times... they're longer now than in UT2k3, but still shorter than UT. The best way to use the LG if you're not a headshot maestro is to take a couple of potshots while they're at range and try to score a hit. If you can do that, you've knocked 70 health off and they're much easier to take down with just about any other weapon. Hell, if I score an LG hit on somebody and see they don't have armor, I've been known to use the Assault Rifle as a finisher... and that can be quite embarrassing. :D

In UT2k3, of course, the LG/ Shock one- two punch was infamous.

So yeah, just work on scoring the one hit and get your weapon switching down and you'll be good to go. And the net result is a much more balanced weapon. People still whore the LG a little but it's nowhere near as bad as the original sniper.

*edit* Re: "takes too long to play." To each his own, I guess. I enjoy getting a little "quality time" with an opponent, it makes the mental game a lot more satisfying. In 2k3 it would seem to take days to finish off a duel, you could almost see the playermodels sweating :lol:. Plus, you spend less time respawning that way.

Selerox
6th May 2005, 10:53 AM
not smart enough,The LG is useless unless your good at hit scanwapons

I have a fairly poor hitscan aim, but I simply can't agree with you that making the SR have a higher rate of fire is a good idea. A high ROF sniper is just a bad idea on balance. If it had a UT99 mechanism, then the better players would simply dominate with it, and would help screw up UT's alpine learning curve.

gregori
6th May 2005, 11:01 AM
there are few maps in UT99 where you can copletly whore th SR because their to small and you could mess people up with the other weapons, liandri is a classic example.

maybe making the lighning gun only a sniper wepon in zoom mode would work out better as the shock alreeady does the scanhit stuff well enough.

maybe a chainlightning weapon for primaryfire or multiple weak eletrical bolts and sparks thogh the linkgun kind of does this

-AEnubis-
6th May 2005, 01:59 PM
I was able to whore Sniper on every map if ping allowed. I went godlike on Agony, in 5 on 5 man TDM.

Whether your good at it or not, the fact remains, hit-scan weapons are the easiest weapons to learn. It's point and click. People think just because of area of effect that boomy projectile weapons are easier, but just because you are doing some damage, doesn't mean you are doing lethal damage. Getting to the the point where you are doing lethal damage with projectiles consistantly takes much more practice, and it also more dependent on your targets ability to dodge.

Heck, I'm not even that great at hit-scan, but that's because I configre for the other stuff, and don't excessively practice it, but I know when I am on with it, it's way too powerful.

The projectile can be fast enough, that "dodging" it would be rare, and matrix like, with no real Neo's out there. The rest of this thread explains already what would have to happen to the LtG if it were to return. As is, both it and shock are too powerful.

BmB23
6th May 2005, 02:28 PM
If LtG is lightning gun I'm going to die!

They cant remove that!!

It is the only original sniper I have seen before halo 2!!

it is a really really cool addition to your arsenal (and a nice excuse for hitscan)

1337
6th May 2005, 02:52 PM
phalanx']enforcers ruled u could do 25 dmg if ya hit the rite places in UT99, the AR was like shooting a pea shooter at a tank :/
The assault rifle is pretty effective for being a weapon you spawn with. Sure it's not effective in ws on DM, but in ws on DM the biggest goal is to get to a weapon. A good player can shave 100 health real fast on a newer player that has a better weapon. AR served it's purpose in ut2k4. The double assault really added more depth to TDM as well. If I can freakin own with a weapon I spawn with, it makes weapon bases pointless. A starting weapon is supposed to by crappy. It better not be hitscan and accurate with a deadly rof, because that would really blow and would crap up the game. The "double" weapon thing adds a lot to the game. So if you spawn with one enforcer your teammate that didn't want to give you another weapon for whatever reason could just drop his enforcer so you'd have twin enforcers. That adds a lot to the game.

BmB23
6th May 2005, 03:10 PM
You double posted!

carmatic
6th May 2005, 03:49 PM
wasnt there the rumour that the first shot from the assault rifle is always spot on, and its only when you hold it down that it starts spreading?

BmB23
6th May 2005, 03:55 PM
well its somewhat true... I mostly win longdistance AR duels because I shoot wait till its relaxed and shoot again retaining its high precision instead of wasting 12 shots to hit once in the leg or something.

carmatic
6th May 2005, 04:30 PM
what do you mean wait till its relaxed... i dont ever see the gun 'relax' or anything? or you mean like what happens in some games when you can see the crosshair get bigger after you shoot to show you how inaccurate the gun is and you wait for the crosshair to get smaller, except in ut2k4 the crosshair doesnt change...

Selerox
6th May 2005, 04:43 PM
or you mean like what happens in some games when you can see the crosshair get bigger after you shoot to show you how inaccurate the gun is and you wait for the crosshair to get smaller, except in ut2k4 the crosshair doesnt change...

If Epic stick recoil into UT I will be heading for Raleigh with a can of petriol and a box of matches. Leave that to Counter-Strike et al...

carmatic
6th May 2005, 04:50 PM
yeah, i was asking about the accurate-assrifle trick... im pretty sure that conformist weapon behaviour will not be a thing in the UT universe, but like, since people were talking about the assrifle, i might as well clear up some things about it for myself...

gregori
6th May 2005, 04:55 PM
indeed it's not real tournament or counterstrike, leave that **** to the realworld or join the f#cking army if people if you like real weapon behaviour so much, screw conformist weapon behavoiur!

AriTheDog
6th May 2005, 06:51 PM
There could always be a Lightening Gun that fired a little metal bullet of some sort and fired lightening into it on contact with a target. Like a taser with no wire.

This addresses the possibility of a non-hitscan Lightening Gun.

-AEnubis-
6th May 2005, 11:43 PM
I'd have to see it done, but that could be cool.

Discord
7th May 2005, 12:33 AM
As is, both (LG) and shock are too powerful.

Nah, weapon balance in UT2k4 is the best I've seen yet. It's true they're the best guns in the game, but the disparity ain't that much.

Compare the shock and LG to rox and flak.

First of all, shock and LG get owned by the shieldgun... LG is absorbed, shock is actually reflected. Many's the time I've hoisted the shield in a spawnraping shock ho's face only to be met with visible confusion as his shots come back at him... a lot of times, the guy will actually stop shooting for a few seconds while considering what the hell to do now. Pretty funny, says I. Flak primary, however, carves right through the shield and flak secondary and rox simply go around. Against a shieldwhoring EFC, rox and flak are my choice every time.

Vehicles: air vehicles definitely want the hitscan weapons because they're so fast... and I'll admit that shock's ability to push vehicles is a little unfair. Against heavier ground vehicles, however, flak and rox will make things go much quicker for you.

When you're going mano- e- mano, it's painfully obvious: hitscan weapons have the advantage at range but the spamguns rule cqb. If flak can outthink LG for 5 seconds he can score the frag. If he can't, he's toast.

Shock combo: slower ball = closer effective range. Slower ball also = easier dodge. At midrange, throw rox at Mr. Shock Ho's feet and he'll be too busy dodging you to combo except by luck. In the meantime, you're doing damage and he's not, while at the same time you're advancing and he's retreating. Wait for him to lodge on an outcropping and finish the poor bastidge.

You can make it on hitscan weapons alone in exactly one place: DM-Asbestos' upper floor. The central corridor is a tool which anybody can use to tear spammers to shreds, and that's what makes that map crazy... gimmick 100a jump be damned.

The narrower choke on the UE2 flak gives it a surprising amount of range, let's not forget.

The shock rifle has an oft- forgot spam component: you can hurl a ton of shock balls willy- nilly at a closing opponent, and it's dangerous as all hell. But most shockwhores never do that. Why? Because it doesn't fit in with the hitscan whoring mentality... it's "lame" to those guys. Balls are for combos, and that's it. If you can remember to spam the secondary, shock is just crazy powerful... but then, it's pretty much THE Unreal Tournament signature weapon. It's the gun no other game has, and as such it's got a right to be a cut above IMO. If you think it'll be put in a wheelchair for the next UT, think again. ;)

And then you've got the outsiders: pulse and goo. They've both got a surprisingly deadly spam component, and goo has the hilarious alt- fire that nobody in their right mind laughs at... well, they wouldn't if they could help themselves. Anyway, when you see one of those guns come out you most likely instantly think, "n00b." Alas, that's not always the case. Those guns are always discounted and therefore always dangerous.



In short, the guys at Epic seem to have the weapon- balance thing pretty well down-pat by now. I'd be full- well interested to see a hitscan- only vs. projectile- only 1v1, and no I wouldn't be placing a bet. Next UT? Who knows... I'm pretty sure it'll be good, though. :)


*edit* Oh yeah, then you've got the BS kill. You know the one, there's some wiseacre camping on a pillar somewhere and he cops the headshot on you when you think the coast is clear and you're not dodging. Well, fine... you've also got that #$%@ n00b who runs face- first into you around a corner and smacks you with 100% of a flak burst. The cheese all evens out as well.

-AEnubis-
7th May 2005, 03:46 AM
Well, there is a few things you neglect to mention...

ASMD prime has push, making it exceedingly difficult (map dependent) for you to close a gap, even with the SG. You can only block about 3 shock beams with it, and you have to deal with "swimming up-stream". LtG also has the capability of shooting around the SG, since it's not cover for a full 180║.

On the converse: Flak, Rox, and Combos against an experienced SG user can not only be fully blocked, but used as momentum projection. The main difference is the damage is bigger on all of them, so it's not that they "go through", it's just that they deplete it.

...and you need tell me nothing about shock. I core juggle, and multi-core combo my fair share. I know the dangers of shock. I think a lot of the problem is maps. Seems the most popular maps online, Grendel, Rankin, Antalus, Waisten, Goose, Deck and other similar maps are very open, and cater to said weapons.

Lightning switch away time is another element that makes trying to close the gap almost silly. It is faster then SG switchaway time (feels like it, though I haven't tested it), and hence makes SG charging to make another weapon more effective, almost pointless, if said opponent has a weapon for said range. I can't tell you how many times I've close that gap, damage free, only to find flak to the face, before I get a shot off. I can't blame flak for that, because it was the weapon for the distance. How fast he got to flak though, is the issue, especially when I switch out right as a LtG shot is fired.

I still agree that this game has a more balanced weapon set then any other I've ever played, and was preaching it's glory, despite sceptics all through the life of 2k3, and it's even better in 2k4. Those weapons are simply way too efficient none the less.

T2A`
7th May 2005, 04:12 AM
The biggest problem with the shock, IMO, is the knock-back. Sure, the RoF and the damage may be a bit too high, but the transfer of momentum is way too damn much, and it makes the other two properties I've mentioned impossible to deal with. If I, a hitscan nub, can land three straight shock primaries because the other guy can't move away, we have a problem. Yeah, yeah, shield gun, blah, blah, blah. The shield gun seems like a cop-out to me, like they knew they couldn't balance the hitscan weapons, so they threw in a shield as a balance hack. On an average level of play, no one uses the shield gun. No one. Just look at FragBU. It has a decent sampling of player skills, and rarely does anyone pull out a shield gun to reflect shock primaries, because everyone wants to kill and not run away. Running away isn't weapon balance. There should be a counter for it via weaponry, and really, your only hope is to hitscan them to death before they get you.

The link gun is a piece of crusty ass. The primary is all but useless except in random occasions where you can fry someone at a very close distance with four blasts really easily. Bring back the RoF of the pulse gun and make the shots not so powerful and the gun will actually be useful again. The secondary fire is fine, but I'll be damned (or completely out of options) if I ever shoot a link plasma at someone when I'm not playing AS-Junkyard.

Additionally, I would like it so that point-blank headshots are impossible to pull off. Those things are always luck-of-the-draw anyway. Same with though-the-ass-out-the-esophagus headshots that you get sometimes when you're below an opponent.

Now it is time for bed.

carmatic
7th May 2005, 06:53 AM
i once shot at someone in a scorption from behind, and somehow got a headshot... hm, must be all that metal on it... but quite a few times i got headshots by shooting straight at the person inside , it just happens i hit them on their head...

-AEnubis-
7th May 2005, 01:58 PM
Running away with SG up is a bad assumption. Have you seen me use it for offense yet? My problem is, the beams are so fast, and push, so like a TAM game I had last night, where 4th element entered the equation, and I wanted to drop a level, and couldn't because I got beamed as I moved towards a ledge, and hence could fall. Then again, and again, and before I knew it, I was almost dead. Beams happen so fast, that you really don't have time to react to them, especially in situations like that. I think I finally pulled SG, dodged off, and escaped with less then 20 health.

SG rushing is the greatest. You can also sometimes pull it just to force your opponent to switch weapons, which is almost just as effective. Usually if it looks like I'm running away with SG, it's only because I'm re-positioning, for eliminating a weapons usefullness, or multiple targets.

That, though, is something you just have to practice. Just because you pull the SG out, doesn't mean you have to run. Somtimes vs a full <insert weapon you plan to block with SG here>, you gotta run, but in TAM or othe r places where you know they have more limited ammo, charge, charge away.

Discord
7th May 2005, 02:08 PM
If I, a hitscan nub, can land three straight shock primaries because the other guy can't move away, we have a problem.

That only happens because your target is either a newbie or a vet having one of those moments where his brain falls out (I'm well familiar with that one) -- what happens is, you nail him once and he tries to run in a straight line toward you. And yeah, that's funny.

Closing the range on a shock rifle isn't really that hard (against a like- skilled individual, anyway), provided you remember two things: lateral/ diagonal dodging and spam. He might peg you once or twice, but as long as you keep some kind of obstacle at your back he won't push you that far... and the spam will force him to move.

Re: link primary. I've come to actually prefer it to secondary under the right conditions. If your target isn't in too open of an area, strafe back and forth in a tight circle with the occasional single- dodge thrown in while spamming away relentlessly. This has three effects: it makes you a hard target for hitscan shots, it covers a broad area with your spam (and link primary's damage isn't inconsiderable), and the opacity of the plasma makes it really hard to see... so you've got kind of a weaponized smokescreen going on. Link primary has surprised the crap out of me before, and I've learned to use it.

Re: rox/ flak boost effect on shieldgun. That happens when you go for the direct hit... why would you do that? Splash is the answer there.

Re: nobody uses shield. Well, that's their fault, isn't it? And it's not just about running away, a lot of times it's about buying time... it's really great for letting miniman blow off all his ammo and then pulling out the flak vs his not- so- hot other gun.

I don't think it would hurt anything, really, to tone down the shock a little bit. But at the same time, a good judge of a whoregun is whether or not you'd be willing to use it exclusively. And yeah, there are times when a shock is all I want (see DM-Corrugation: the shockwhore's paradise), but they're not that often. And by the same token, there are plenty of times on Face where I'll head out to the enemy base with nothing but rox and do a fair bit of damage. Shock is strong in 2k4, yes, but I don't see it as a deal- breaker at all.

carmatic
7th May 2005, 02:57 PM
i like the link gun primary fire, it works alot better on real players while the secondary fire is only good on bots... just blanked the area with it, and up close its almost impossible to dodge, and if your opponent is trapped somewhere far away, he'll be trapped there if you use the link gun primary on him...

kafros
8th May 2005, 04:16 AM
I do wonder what percentage of the total UT200X players are good players (ppl that can use the shock rifle, LG, shield gun, dodge).

I remember that all of my UT200X playing time at work (ehhhemm I mean after work on the office LAN) we would use rockets, flak, link gun alternate as top priority weapons.

It was not until I played online on some low ping Clan servers (and got mass raped) and watched some frag videos that I started to use the hit-scan weapons and a more advanced movement.

I believe that the vast majority of players are casual players and that EPIC will try to fix the game for the needs of the casual player and not for the advanced (thats YOU forumers) that knows every strength/weakness in gameplay inside out.

I expect EPIC to remove as much staff as possible that gives advantage to good players so that they can close the gap. It is this gap that keeps new players from coming into the game (it is impossible for a new player to get a kill on a wall jumping head-shot combo whore expert)

I would prefer that they keep weapons/movement as the are now - UNREAL. A lift jump shock combo double kill is more rewarding (even if I pull it once every 2000 attempts) than a spammy kill. But (bou hou hou) I expect EPIC to take a more conservative approach and tone down hit-scan weapon damage, ROF and also lessen the dodging moves.

Let's hope I am completely wrong....!

Discord
8th May 2005, 01:45 PM
I believe that the vast majority of players are casual players and that EPIC will try to fix the game for the needs of the casual player and not for the advanced (thats YOU forumers) that knows every strength/weakness in gameplay inside out.

You're probably right on that one. Movement is slated to be toned down in the next one, that's known. And with the replacement of the mini with the stinger, it does indeed look like a move toward projectiles is under way.

And I can totally relate to your post. It took me over a year to start venturing out into the pubs for UT, and in the end I joined a casual clan and mostly played long- distance LAN games for fun. :)

Even UT99 though, which is nowhere near as crazy as UT2kX with the skill requirements on movement and weapons- handling (not a harsh -- but UT has more damage and less spider monkey), still has plenty of depth to it. So I'm not too worried, really, as Epic hasn't yet made a game I hated. Heh... U2 was those other guys. :lol:

gregori
8th May 2005, 02:06 PM
fix the scale of the maps in ut2kx and that will help tone down the crazy movement,
the large open enviroments render the flak cannon mostly useless

BooGiTyBoY
8th May 2005, 03:38 PM
fix the scale of the maps in ut2kx and that will help tone down the crazy movement,
the large open enviroments render the flak cannon mostly useless

Pardon me while I :lol: :lol: :lol: at that.

-AEnubis-
9th May 2005, 01:21 AM
Discord']Re: link primary. I've come to actually prefer it to secondary under the right conditions. If your target isn't in too open of an area, strafe back and forth in a tight circle with the occasional single- dodge thrown in while spamming away relentlessly. This has three effects: it makes you a hard target for hitscan shots, it covers a broad area with your spam (and link primary's damage isn't inconsiderable), and the opacity of the plasma makes it really hard to see... so you've got kind of a weaponized smokescreen going on. Link primary has surprised the crap out of me before, and I've learned to use it.

Oh, I love it, and am quite good at the trig involved in even using it for damage situations. Nothing drops a player faster, then getting them strafing with you, in the same direction, and just opening it up with a slight lead for distance.

Discord']Re: rox/ flak boost effect on shieldgun. That happens when you go for the direct hit... why would you do that? Splash is the answer there.

No, Splash is what creates the push. If you shoot a rocket to land in between my legs, then I've got from the time you pull the trigger, you identify that spot, jump in the direction I want to fly, and SG block towards the epicenter of the blast. I use it vs combos a bit to close distance on someone. Let them fire it at you, dodge>jump forward SG in hand, and 180 to block the combo's center. Take no damage, go flying at your opponent, pull out flak, pray you don't miss.

Ruffrider
9th May 2005, 12:51 PM
I need the LG :(

-AEnubis-
9th May 2005, 03:43 PM
LtG

Dark Pulse
9th May 2005, 04:16 PM
LtG
:stupid:

Discord
9th May 2005, 05:00 PM
LtG

Nah. Link = Link. It's not important enough to get an abreviation. :lol:

LtG sounds like a bad, gas- guzzling 70s- era Ford.

Kriegs-Maschine
9th May 2005, 05:12 PM
That's the idea. In UT200x, the balance between hitscan and ballistic weapons has shifted massivly in favour of hitscan. Anything that redresses the balance is good in my book. As for a ballstic SR? I wouldn't mind. It'd be better than the point and click gaming we have now.


I'm so happy that Lightning Gun is removed in UT2007 :D .LG in UT2004 is mostly used as a second lame Hitscan rather than a Sniper Gun. 1 shot = 70 dmg and its quite easy to pull even at close range. I say that there should ONLY be 1 weapon for hitscan and that would be shock rifle, but of course, must not be as lame as it is in UT2004. Sniper will be cool, gonna give a classic look from UT99 and it won't be "too powerful"...
It's also nice to see the come back of Dual Enforcers :)

UT was meant to be played agressivly and be an action game, not some point & click or chicken-sh*t hide & seek game like it is in UT2004 mainly... It is so cool when you are good and have quick reflex, to dodge the incomings rockets, and projectile stuff, like you dodge enemy rocket then get close enought to blow him in piece with Flak Cannon :P

Butcher.
9th May 2005, 05:13 PM
I find the sniper rifle to be far superior to the lightening gun I am much more accurate with the rifle getting ludicrous kills and wicked sicks I get a few kills with the lightening gun but sniper rifle wins all the time.

NeoNite
9th May 2005, 05:13 PM
I wouldn't mind a sniper rifle like the one in the following description I'll give you:

You pull the trigger, there's this LOUD boom (heavy bass) and a milisecond after that the target you were aiming at EXPLODES.

BANG!!!



And oh yeah, include "aimbot" option as well.

Butcher.
9th May 2005, 05:21 PM
It would be nice to have a bullet cam for the kill that gets you head hunter so you can see the splatter.

carmatic
9th May 2005, 06:30 PM
i dunnoe, but im liking the idea of a non-hitscan sniper weapon like chaosut... with a somewhat high rate of fire, and lower damage per bullet, so you try to lead an enemy and you might miss your first shot but you have a better chance of hitting him , that is if he didnt spot you and started doing evasive maneouvres ...

-AEnubis-
10th May 2005, 02:02 AM
No, that was an LTD. D, and G sound nothing alike.

LG has no personality, and get's TTS'd to Large.

LtG has some personality as an abbreviation, and is much more fitting to the weapon.

Whether or not something does happen, doesn't change the fact that it can happen.

{DVS}..::KILLA::..
10th May 2005, 04:33 AM
ok, I havent read the whole thread, and Im not gonna cos i cant be assed, but I liked the original Sniper Rifle, and the UT2K4 Rifle. I would like to see BOTH in the game. The UT99 rifle in my proposed UT:GOTY mutator that changes everything back to the original weapons and settings, and the UT2k4 one for standard play...
yeah...

Discord
10th May 2005, 02:45 PM
No, that was an LTD. D, and G sound nothing alike.

Yeah, except for that big "EEEEEEEE" sound at the end, they're nothing alike. :p

LG has no personality, and get's TTS'd to Large.

1. LG has PLENTY of personality. Like, "Yo wazzup LG!!!" Plus, it's easier to say.

2. TTS?!!! Ew! :con:

And anyway, instead of trying to change the whole known world's way of saying something, you could just go in and edit your TTS aliases... ;)

LtG has some personality as an abbreviation, and is much more fitting to the weapon.

I still say it sounds like a car Eazy- E would drive. "Yo wazzup LG wit da fresh LtG?!!"

Whether or not something does happen, doesn't change the fact that it can happen.

That's true. That fact doesn't really do much to improve one's odds, however. :D




Hehe, that was fun. :-)

What were we talking about again?

-AEnubis-
10th May 2005, 03:00 PM
Discord']And anyway, instead of trying to change the whole known world's way of saying something, you could just go in and edit your TTS aliases... ;)

Actually, I said something when the abbeviation was still new, and a couple people involved in that thread agreed it should be that way. Unfortunately, only a handful of people saw that thread. Things would be different if everyone payed as much attention to what I say as they should.

Yeah, I've been thinkin' about editing it into my aliases... my alias list is just getting long.

Kriegs-Maschine
10th May 2005, 03:25 PM
Actually, I said something when the abbeviation was still new, and a couple people involved in that thread agreed it should be that way. Unfortunately, only a handful of people saw that thread. Things would be different if everyone payed as much attention to what I say as they should.

Yeah, I've been thinkin' about editing it into my aliases... my alias list is just getting long.


lol just noticed over your avatar: "Anti Hit-scan Activist." :P
1 dumb question, I really have no idea since no one almost play with Sniper Rifle in UT2004, but is it an Hitscan like the LG/LtG or its a "bullet... forgot the word for non-hitscan stuff". ?

Discord
10th May 2005, 03:43 PM
Things would be different if everyone payed as much attention to what I say as they should.

You too, huh?

*sigh*

Yeah, it's hard being an evil genius. But in the spirit of consolation, allow me to offer you two of my very own Guaranteed- To- Offend- Somebody aphorisms for just such moments:

1. "...and you can believe me because I never lie and I'm always right."

2. "You know, I just don't think you're treating me with all the seriousness which a person of my stature is due."

You can sometimes even win the argument with one of those simply by making your adversary incoherent with rage. :D


*edit* @ Kriegs Machine: both the original UT sniper and its updated UT2k4 counterpart are hitscan. And you can believe me because... well, you know. :p

Oblivion[CW]
10th May 2005, 03:57 PM
http://www.whitevillenc.com/CW/images/screenshots/tempshots/trifle.jpg
Tarydium Rifle :)
Has a tracer
Projectile not hit scan
Biogel discharge
Still nice head shots


:lol:

SanitysEdge
10th May 2005, 04:07 PM
Even the slowest bullet moves faster than the sound, so ducking when you hear the bang is usually pretty futile :)
There are subsonic bullets, like the SB193 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS190), which is ment to be used with a silencer, since it doesnt produce the sonic bang of most bullets, then with the silencer it barely makes any noise at all. Unfortonaltey, since they dont go as fast, they are not as powerful.

Defeat
11th May 2005, 01:31 AM
>BRING ME BACK MY UT SNIPER RIFLE!!!!! There wasn't anything wrong with it and it fired twice as fast as the LtG. That is a good thing that it fires fast because (and I've never seen anyone else do this) I use it as an all range weapon. I can can beat a flak cannon at close range and stay out of shock combo all with the same weapon. I NEED MY UT SNIPER RIFLE BACK!!!!!

edhe
11th May 2005, 06:08 AM
That's the point - it's an all ranged weapon when it shouldn't be, it fires too fast and can kill one shot from any range. That = too powerful.

Have you not been reading?

NeoNite
11th May 2005, 06:16 AM
Yeah, I think I have it figured out.

So, basically this is what the sniper rifle should do to please the crowd.

Ho-hum.

Before you shoot, a LARGE flag appears out of the barrel, saying "BANG".

Ok, 0.5 seconds after this speshul event, the bullet leaves the gun and travels sliiiiightly slower than the "speed of sound" towards its target.

When it arrives there, it apologises for the fact it will kill him/her/it instantly. Leaving some time for the target to seek for cover.

There. I think that should do the trick.

Defeat
11th May 2005, 08:23 AM
>Yes i have been reading, i've read this entire post.

T2A`
11th May 2005, 08:46 AM
I'm sure he's read it. I'm also sure he's just dumb.

The point is balance. Would you want flak to be useful across Torlan? I think not. Should you not explode in a hail of gibs if you spooge someone with a full goop charge point-blank? Why, then, should you not be severly crippled when at close range with a sniper rifle. Let's look at that word again: sniper. That implies long-range, and that's where it should be useful. Just because you can't kill anyone with the current one doesn't mean they should change it.

edhe
11th May 2005, 08:57 AM
A sniper rifle that would please everyone would be one that hit perfectly every time you shot it but never at all when it was fired at you.

Doh :p

Kriegs-Maschine
11th May 2005, 02:02 PM
I'm sure he's read it. I'm also sure he's just dumb.

The point is balance. Would you want flak to be useful across Torlan? I think not. Should you not explode in a hail of gibs if you spooge someone with a full goop charge point-blank? Why, then, should you not be severly crippled when at close range with a sniper rifle. Let's look at that word again: sniper. That implies long-range, and that's where it should be useful. Just because you can't kill anyone with the current one doesn't mean they should change it.

Yeah the perfect balance for the sniper would be to make it good ONLY at Long-Range. Else if it gets like the LG in UT2004 that you can easily kill someone at close range, thats juste lame... considering that its an hitscan and 1 hit kill if headshot and else, do 60-70 dmg which is already a lot. If you noticed, Sniper in UT2004 does 60 dmg and 120 for headshots and LG 70 and 140 for headshots. I think that 60 is much better than 70.

Renegade Retard
11th May 2005, 02:40 PM
Yeah, I think I have it figured out.

So, basically this is what the sniper rifle should do to please the crowd.

Ho-hum.

Before you shoot, a LARGE flag appears out of the barrel, saying "BANG".

Ok, 0.5 seconds after this speshul event, the bullet leaves the gun and travels sliiiiightly slower than the "speed of sound" towards its target.

When it arrives there, it apologises for the fact it will kill him/her/it instantly. Leaving some time for the target to seek for cover.

There. I think that should do the trick.

:lol:

"BANG"

Bahahahhaaa!!!

Defeat
11th May 2005, 03:57 PM
>Um, acually i'm not dumb and yes I see your point about the sniper rifle but I think it kinda balances out the shock rifle in a way.

Renegade Retard
11th May 2005, 04:01 PM
I see your point about the sniper rifle but I think it kinda balances out the shock rifle in a way.

How? (again, talking about the UT Sniper, right?)

Defeat
11th May 2005, 04:03 PM
>Earlier in this thread it said that people were getting tired of the shock rifle being used as a sniper rifle.

NeoNite
11th May 2005, 04:57 PM
:lol:

"BANG"

Bahahahhaaa!!!

Cillit bang, cleans up the lot ;O)

carmatic
11th May 2005, 05:15 PM
cilit bang is the sniper weapons!http://www.fehlkonstruiert.de/uploads/mediapool/cillit-bang.jpg

NeoNite
11th May 2005, 05:27 PM
Heads,limbs, and all your bones.. Snipah BANG.. cleans up the lot!

Look at our poor benny,
Look at our poor benny,

Good as death,
Good as death,
Good as death,
Good as death,

Look at our poor benny,
Look at our poor benny,

Good as death,
Good as death,
Good as death,
Good as death,

Snipaaaaah BANG !!!

BLUUDTH|RSTA
11th May 2005, 08:55 PM
Ok, I love the LtG, I have been plaing UT for 3 years, everyday Im with my PC, I will be INCREDIBLY dissappointed if they drop the LtG. For something more constructive:

It would be unwise to have a FPS without a zoom weapon of some description. It is also unwise to not have any hitscan. It would IMO also be unwise (stupid) to re introduce the friggin ANCIENT "bb gun sniper rifle" that has IMO been far over done in every other FPS known to man ( & woman). Liandri Corp would agree. If there needs to be a ZOOM weapon, then in for the love of God, if it cant be the LtG, then dont let it be the sniper rifle. So 1912 WWI. What year is UT2007 gonna be set in?

I NEED THE LtG

Kriegs-Maschine
11th May 2005, 10:10 PM
Ok, I love the LtG, I have been plaing UT for 3 years, everyday Im with my PC, I will be INCREDIBLY dissappointed if they drop the LtG. For something more constructive:

It would be unwise to have a FPS without a zoom weapon of some description. It is also unwise to not have any hitscan. It would IMO also be unwise (stupid) to re introduce the friggin ANCIENT "bb gun sniper rifle" that has IMO been far over done in every other FPS known to man ( & woman). Liandri Corp would agree. If there needs to be a ZOOM weapon, then in for the love of God, if it cant be the LtG, then dont let it be the sniper rifle. So 1912 WWI. What year is UT2007 gonna be set in?

I NEED THE LtG

Well, the thing is that Sniper is harder to use than LG and do just a bit less dmg (at least in ut2004) and you don't see the "bolt/beam" so it make it more diffrent that the Shock Rifle. Else if we see the bolt like LG, it will be too easy to use and looks too much like the shock rifle. 1 hitscan gun is already well enough (shock), no need of having a second one, just one that is hard to use and only good at long range as it should be used "sniper... long rang" and that would look diffrent than the shock. You get what I mean I think.

For your info about 1912 Snipers and 2007, old one couldn't zoom while new one can zoom as you want ;) and they could even had a fire-mode (like u press a button) while zooming and you have thermal or night visions :) would be nice personnaly...

Unreality
11th May 2005, 10:55 PM
yea i thought bout thermal vision could help indicating a player from the background

krjal
12th May 2005, 07:01 AM
The LtG was fine IMO. It could do with a visual update (a'la flak/rl 2007) but otherwise it fitted the UT theme much better than the sniper ever did (except in the original of course).

I'm a little bit worried though that the sniper in ut07 will be a reworked UC2 sniper which was like a LtGxSniper cop out. Really cool scope though.

Kriegs-Maschine
12th May 2005, 11:23 AM
yea i thought bout thermal vision could help indicating a player from the background

Hope they don't make UT2007 too much like UC2, cause it really looked way diffrent than UT, and less good.

Yeah I think Thermal would be very useful in UT2007, considering that next UT will have much more and better Shadows and Dynamic Lightning effects... in current UT2004, there ain't really any shadows spot in most maps.

-AEnubis-
12th May 2005, 02:01 PM
lol @apoc. #2 is good. Couldn't do #1 because it speaks too defineatively, which is against a person rule of engagement. I've got a few of my own, so I'll be ok ;).

It's not that I want the weapon nerfed to the point where I can abosorb sniper bullets and frolic around carelessly in open areas. I'd like to be able to use it too. What prevents me from using a weapon is lack of challenge or enjoyment in doing so. Honestly, traceability was not one of the bigger problems of the UT sniper rifle, and it bing fixed so thouroughly wasn't as necessary as some other things (chaulk that one up to hind-sight). I just want a sniper weapon that takes skill to use. Having to lead in a no-latency environment, not being able to bail on it right after a shot, and switch to another weapon to take out the guy that flanked your perch.

Sub sonic projectile trace round. Slightly longer ROF then LtG, cSR switch away time, and 80/160dmg. Make the round something that explodes. Thermals on the zoom aren't such a bad idea. Smoke cloud sold seperately.

Only problem is we can't test it like Epic can and tweak accordingly, so even if we could draw a cool weapon on paper, it's mostly pointless. That though is the range I'd be looking for. More damage, less rapidity, minor traceability, mild commitment, skill to shoot.

@Kriegs: Either Hit-scan or Projectile. To code someting not-hit-scan, it needs to be modeled, and designated a velocity.

Kriegs-Maschine
12th May 2005, 02:47 PM
I've thought about something... do you guys think the Sniper would be only used as a sniper "at far range" if they make it so you can ONLY shoot when you Zoom in ? That way it should mostly stop people from abusing of its power at close range ?

Defeat
12th May 2005, 03:43 PM
>In one game the sniper rifle didn't do as much damage if it wasn't zoomed in, i think it ws FAR CRY.

Kriegs-Maschine
12th May 2005, 04:51 PM
>In one game the sniper rifle didn't do as much damage if it wasn't zoomed in, i think it ws FAR CRY.

Yeah this is a good idea but in a way that would be gay cause when you think about it, its the same damn gun and bullets, why should it do less ammo because you dont put ur eye on the scope lol. So instead, another way to balance it and make it more realistic, would simply be to remove the damn crosshair if you dont zoom and have one if you zoom :)
lol simple as hell and working very well :lol:

krjal
12th May 2005, 07:52 PM
:lol:

Xaero_UT
12th May 2005, 09:05 PM
as the developers wanted to reduce hitscan weapons, (left with shock) and go massively on projectiles..

i am also a BIG fan of the LtG, and wont want it to go, without seeing something awesome in return...

what about a hybrid, i heard an idea in here b4 that sounded awesome, a sniper rifle, that fired a projectile shot, and when contact was made with an enemy, a massive electrical discharge blew out of the bullet and fryed ur opponent...

edit- currently there is only 2 maps that are really used for the current sniper rifle

dm-deck-17
ctf-face classic

for sniping purposes, the sr is preety good, if the sound is a bit weak, i wanna hear a massive boom, and if it kills them, they basicly explode.

edit-2 like the sniper rifle on the chaos mod. that is sweeeeettt

for medium to close up fighting, the sr blows.. its hard to hit, and u cant see the bullet, thats one of the reasons the LtG is popular, cause medium to close, u can see the damn bullet, and know how much u missed by..

Kriegs-Maschine
12th May 2005, 09:42 PM
as the developers wanted to reduce hitscan weapons, (left with shock) and go massively on projectiles..

i am also a BIG fan of the LtG, and wont want it to go, without seeing something awesome in return...

what about a hybrid, i heard an idea in here b4 that sounded awesome, a sniper rifle, that fired a projectile shot, and when contact was made with an enemy, a massive electrical discharge blew out of the bullet and fryed ur opponent...

edit- currently there is only 2 maps that are really used for the current sniper rifle

dm-deck-17
ctf-face classic

for sniping purposes, the sr is preety good, if the sound is a bit weak, i wanna hear a massive boom, and if it kills them, they basicly explode.

edit-2 like the sniper rifle on the chaos mod. that is sweeeeettt

for medium to close up fighting, the sr blows.. its hard to hit, and u cant see the bullet, thats one of the reasons the LtG is popular, cause medium to close, u can see the damn bullet, and know how much u missed by..

Thats the point, if we see it, it will be too easy and good to use at medium-close range. The thing is to make it only good at Long range and no less than Medium range.

-AEnubis-
13th May 2005, 12:11 AM
I don't mind it being ok at mid range, or even close range, but if you are gonna tote it at said "un-intended" ranges, I want it's effectiveness to be earned by some raw skill.

I'm not saying make it out right impossible, but if I got an SR, and only an SR, I would want the possibility of landing a shot up close. Hence the no-zoom modification thing I wouldn't like, whether it be decreased damage, no crosshair, or whatever other idea you could come up with to that effect. I think the switch away time is really the clincher, because being able to pop of a high damage shot like that, and make or miss, then switch to a weapon more suited for your range in less then a second is silly. It's you're gonna chance the big damage shot up close like that make them pay. You throw a rail in Q3, and you gotta wait the entire recharge time of the Railgun to even switch away. You start to wonder if it's even worth it to switch away more often then not.

Prob with LtG is, you really don't have to ever make that wait. You don't feel the ROF, because you can throw any other weapon in between it, then come back to it if you want, and it's good, almost solely because of this, at any range.

I wouldn't have a problem if someone was that good with an unzoomed, non-hitscan weapon up close that if they just simply didn't miss, to be able to use it where ever. It's the ability to miss, once or twice, in a CQ firefight, and not worry about it that is bothers me.

Defeat
13th May 2005, 12:52 AM
>^Nicley put^

Black_Seeds
13th May 2005, 01:28 AM
Yeah this is a good idea but in a way that would be gay cause when you think about it, its the same damn gun and bullets, why should it do less ammo because you dont put ur eye on the scope lol. So instead, another way to balance it and make it more realistic, would simply be to remove the damn crosshair if you dont zoom and have one if you zoom :)
lol simple as hell and working very well :lol:

I think it is stupid too. Although if they were going to have differnt damages, i would think it would have more damaged zoomed IN, as it would encourage you to use it as a sniper instead of a CQB gun.

carmatic
13th May 2005, 01:08 PM
i think that the crosshair on the sniper should only exist in scope mode, if it ever comes back again, so that the shock rifle is better at close quarters... well, im only saying that because ive been shot by people wielding lighting guns up-close before and i didnt like it so bleh
well not that i cant hit anyone with the lighting gun in close quarters, but i had the shock rifle out most of the time when i was using hitscan on close quarters, and the slow fire rate on the lighting gun felt akward, but yeah thats just my point of view so bleh

anyway, ive been thinking of this special type of weapon where its the shock rifle and sniper rifle combined, basically a hellbender in a gun... primary fire and secondary fire is the normal shock rifle, but when you hold down secondary and tap primary (just like you would on the rocket launcher to make the rockets go in a spiral) , the gun zooms in and behaves like a sniper rifle and shoots things that are not unlike the twin beams on a hellbender... oh, and you have to keep on tapping secondary fire to keep it shooting , so it has the potential to reduce shock core spamming as well... plus, shooting a shock core before you even zoom in has anti-camping effects that the smoke puff was supposed to do , i think...
also , seeing that this game will be released in the future, i think that its nice if it can include fancy scope effects, like pixel shader effects that will highlight people against the background but the gun will emit a wide cone of light in front of it and people will see this light as a corona on their screens from far away and know that a sniper is present...

edhe
16th May 2005, 03:23 AM
People use hitscan 'sniper' weapons up close and personal because they can, they've learned how to. It's a skill.

It's not a bright idea to totally nerf a weapon just because you get hit by it. There's a whole cut of the community that think the LtG rocks, myself included. I honestly don't think the balance of weaponry in 2k4 is bad, i just want to see bigger booms and bangs.

-AEnubis-
16th May 2005, 04:16 AM
I think the weapon balance in this game is magnificent for 60-90ms pings. That however, is not an average competative ping anymore, even on the internet. It was however a quite "average internet ping" when the current weapon set was esablished in 2k3, and was only very slightly tweaked to 2k4, but not with that aspect in mind.

Again, I re-emphasize: I don't like what the sniper is capable of in my hands either. It's a very easy weapon to frag with, and is almost so efficient, especially in lan scenarios, that when the game get's more competative you are forced to use it to keep up╣. I can whore the SG, and on the right maps fair quite well against it. A lot of it can be blamed on the maps, because some maps, you simply have to out shoot with it (see DM-DE-Grendelkeep). My problem isn't so much facing it though, as it is from both sides of the coin. I don't like useing it, but face the above stated problem╣.

It happened before, and it's bound to happen again. The LtG is one of the coolest sniper weapon concepts I have ever seen, and all things considered, I like it a lot too. Epic has already said it's gone though, otherwise, I might be discussing what things could be done to balance it.

I think though, that balanceing it would be nearly impossible if they plan to take away the SG. Despite it's effectiveness vs every weapon in the game if used properly, the SG's primary use is a hit-scan counter. Since hit-scan can't be dodged, it is the only means of pre-emptive damage prevention you can do. You really, shouldn't need it vs anything projectile, because there remains a possibility to avoid it reactively. With the minigone, and no more LtG, a slowed down Shock Prime, and limited range link shaft as the only hit-scan in the game, a projectile based stinger, and sniper weapon would easily facilitate it's removeal. Then, however they plan to reduce the "hip-hop" will hopefully restore some of the scaling, and various weapons aspects of UT, and make this game as "in your face" as they hope to restore it to be.

I also firmly believe that another "means" of balancing hit-scan in this game were the change of scale and player visibility. Smaller characters, who's colors blended better with backrounds would make them harder targets to trace-point-click. Unfortunately, at competative levels, we have wonderous things called brightskins in comp, and TAM, to destroy those aspects weapon balance. If they make the move back to larger, more visible models, then that will as well be considered when balancing the weapons, and make hit-scan weapons again, in need of "nerfing".

My main point is more or less to illustrate all the factors and concerns when considering weapon balance. You can see how my subject matter can tend to veer off in so many directions, because there is that much to consider, how everything effects and compares to everything else. Hence I try not to worry about little things like how "the next UT won't have that cool lightning weapon", but more try to focus the big picture and how hopfully "UT's weapon balance will improove greatly once again" as it has done so well in the past.

krjal
16th May 2005, 09:32 AM
Don't give up!

There's time still for the LtG to sneak in.

And, if it doesn't, I'll just say what I've said on the Stinger thread: There'll always be a mutator...

Kriegs-Maschine
16th May 2005, 09:52 AM
Don't give up!

There's time still for the LtG to sneak in.

And, if it doesn't, I'll just say what I've said on the Stinger thread: There'll always be a mutator...

lol most of the people can't accept changes/diffrent stuff. It's very good to have new/diffrent stuff somtimes, ever having the same thing over and over gets boring really quickly.

But I don't think they should balance hitscan by making gay dark skins like some Cyborg of UT2004, its just lame when you can't see the enemy... and even more if he can see you cause you're not using a lame skin like him. Dark skin would disadvantage not just hitscans, but every weapons for me. Of course this can all be fixed with UTcomp bright colors... but I'd really prefer to play with "normal" colors that are possible to see and looks good. Yes its easy to spot people with UTcomp but they are damn ugly...