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elminsterchu
30th Apr 2005, 06:57 PM
In UT2004 onslaught,when my team is losing(only power core left or power core + one power node)it seems impossible to win the game(even redeemer is not that effective),do you think there should be a way for losing team to change the tide in next UT?

Discord
30th Apr 2005, 07:02 PM
In UT2004 onslaught,when my team is losing(only one power core left or one power core + one power node)it seems impossible to win the game(even redeemer is not that effective),do you think there should be a way for losing team to change the tide in next UT?

Yes. And it's not hard to do, either.

The majority of the maps ought to have two separate routes between powercores with connections between the two -- default link setup on ONS-Dawn is a perfect example.

ONS2k4 is still a prototype in a lot of ways... hopefully the next iteration will be considerably refined.

carmatic
30th Apr 2005, 07:03 PM
there is already a compensating effect in the current onslaught games where the node's life is equal to the number of enemy nodes linked to it, or something... like they also build faster , and the enemy nodes linked to it would also be weaker... but when the rest of your team is busy trying to kill people attacking the powercore, leaving you to actually do something at the last node, the compensation wont have much effect...

what really hurts is when you get spawncamped by a tank in torlan, and i just wish that servers would take torlan off their rotation because the gameplay really feels beta-quality in that map....
alternatively, they would have a different type of spawn protection compared to deathmatch games, as in it would be several times longer, and doesnt switch off when you fire a weapon(because the powercore is supplying so much high-tech energy to your team in your base, etc)... that would be a better way i think...

Selerox
30th Apr 2005, 07:04 PM
Epic have stated that ONS had some major flaws that meant that games became hugely unbalanced very quickly, leading to situations like the ones you describe. Epic know about this, so I think we can expect some gameplay changes to ONS to try to fix that. Which is a good thing, because it'll make ONS a far fairer gametype.

carmatic
30th Apr 2005, 07:09 PM
but i just kinda get used to it , sometimes i cant even get to half of the map, much less win the match... granted it feels more fun to be able to travel all across the map, and not get stuck with your enemies outside your base, but at those times i adopt an 'every man for himself' mentality to just kill as many enemies as i can to get the highest score... occasionally i would do something like finish building a node or two to get the score even higher, but the nodes inevitably get destroyed , at least that means i get to have more points when i finish building them again...

Israphel
30th Apr 2005, 07:12 PM
This all depends on map design.
Discord is right, maps like Dawn with two nodes connected to the power core make it easier to turn around. Maps like Torlan and Crossfire where you have few vehicles in the base and get camped in tanks make it almost impossible.

Some maps that have come out since the game have taken this into account. Urban for example has a node that cannot be taken be the enemy and the lev spawns there...this means you can attack the node from two angles.

Ascendency is another map that's easy to turn.

This is obviously the way for ONS to go in the future.

Olga
30th Apr 2005, 07:27 PM
ONS-Dria is a good example of the impossible to destroy enemy core inbalance, granted there is a power node almost right next to the power cores.

carmatic
30th Apr 2005, 08:43 PM
well yeah, but at least in that map its abit more pleasant to be on the losing team while still keeping the winning team motivated, which has to be a good thing... the action takes place over a wider area, and tanks take longer to roll in, plus spawning with avrils always help

another dynamic at play in maps like crossfire is the different places where you can hit the powercore from... finding the source of rockets, plasma, shock beams, etc hiding somewhere out in the middle of the map is sometimes as much of an activity as facing your enemies spawning on the nearest node up front...

ive been on some maps hosted on titaninternet32playeronslaught that actually have nodes shielded in one way or another from vehicles, and i think its a good idea... games flow much more smootly , but having tanks shoving shells into the only ways out of your base still suck...

Majik
30th Apr 2005, 11:07 PM
there is already a compensating effect in the current onslaught games where the node's life is equal to the number of enemy nodes linked to it, or something... like they also build faster , and the enemy nodes linked to it would also be weaker... but when the rest of your team is busy trying to kill people attacking the powercore, leaving you to actually do something at the last node, the compensation wont have much effect...

Huh, are you sure about that? I've never noticed anything like that.

carmatic
1st May 2005, 06:47 PM
umm i think im pretty sure... sometimes the nodes do build a hell of alot slower than other times, and sometimes its easier to take down a node than other times... im pretty sure....

Majik
1st May 2005, 07:09 PM
Well, I decided to do a little test, but I didn't see anything that would suggest that is the case.

Nodes built (without the use of link gun) in 30 seconds regardless of the number of active nodes connected to it and it took me 25 seconds to destroy one with the link secondary.

AMmayhem
2nd May 2005, 11:52 AM
Maps with more than one connecting node to the power core also require more players as well to attack both sides. Or to at least defend one and push on with the other. Hence why I've always said maps with 8 nodes (or more) are more of what Onslaught should be.

Peregrine
4th May 2005, 04:23 PM
It's easy to comeback in any ONS game.
The key is to WORK AS A TEAM...which sadly doesn't happen much on pubs.
It certainly does happen, and I've had more then my share of awesome comebacks.
In fact, when I join a server I prefer to be on the side that is down.

Bazzi
4th May 2005, 04:30 PM
In Torlan it's just almost impossible, even when working as team. The enemy attacks with at least 2 tanks, 4 Mantas, 2 Raptors und you with your 3 vehicles and few weapons are pretty out of options.

Peregrine
4th May 2005, 04:40 PM
Torlan may be harder then most but it's not impossible. You only need to keep your home node up long enough for your team to knock down the tank node and the mid node.
The reasons this DOES NOT happen often:
You entire team leaves the home node which in turn leaves it wide open for the enemy to take it down oh so very quickly. <--- see this the most.
Your teammates get distracted DM'ing.
2 of your teamates are sitting at base. One on the tower trying to avril raptors, and the other just standing by the Raptor spawn hoping it will come up soon.
It is ESPECIALLY easy on MOST pubs because they all have SUPERWEAPONS = ON only IF you can keep the deemer out of thier hands. Get the home node up and deemer the mid or tank node.

2 good players on the same team in say 6v6, working together can easily make the comback happen.

Bot_40
4th May 2005, 05:54 PM
Don't forget good map design, more powerfull weapons/vehicles should be at the core so your team has a good chance of recapturing the first node(s). For example in red planet the levi usually gives you a good chance of capturing and holding the first node long enough to get a route to the enemies first node.
Most maps seem to have the exact opposite of this especially torlan, where it usually ends up with the base being totally pinned down by 2 tanks and a hellbender.

Also other less obvious things like node placement. Placing the first node(s) closer to that team's power core so the winning team has further to travel. Or placing power cores at higher points so the losing team has a height advantage and so on.

Majik
4th May 2005, 06:19 PM
Torlan may be harder then most but it's not impossible. You only need to keep your home node up long enough for your team to knock down the tank node and the mid node.
The reasons this DOES NOT happen often:
You entire team leaves the home node which in turn leaves it wide open for the enemy to take it down oh so very quickly. <--- see this the most.
Your teammates get distracted DM'ing.
2 of your teamates are sitting at base. One on the tower trying to avril raptors, and the other just standing by the Raptor spawn hoping it will come up soon.
It is ESPECIALLY easy on MOST pubs because they all have SUPERWEAPONS = ON only IF you can keep the deemer out of thier hands. Get the home node up and deemer the mid or tank node.

2 good players on the same team in say 6v6, working together can easily make the comback happen.

It may be true that 2 good players on the same team can make that happen, but you'll have to consider that 2 good players on the other team has even easier terms of preventing that to happen.

In my experience it mostly happens when the teams are somewhat misbalanced with one team full of decent players while the other has a few good players and the rest are poor. In a hypothetical situation, where the teams are completely balanced, I think what you described above are much less likely to happen.

On a sidenote, what I really don't like about Torlan is the lack of decent weapons at the first node, especially weapons effective against vehicles. As Bot_40 said, good map design is key.

carmatic
4th May 2005, 08:36 PM
heck it took me until a few days ago to realize that theres an avril pickup at the base... which apparently the rest of my team didnt know about at that time, and i remember i had 140 points while the no.2 guy in my team had less than half of that...

i think that we should have godmode-like respawn protection at the powercore, so even the mere sight of the enemy powercore is a precious thing in itself...

Israphel
5th May 2005, 06:12 AM
Torlan may be harder then most but it's not impossible. You only need to keep your home node up long enough for your team to knock down the tank node and the mid node.
The reasons this DOES NOT happen often:
You entire team leaves the home node which in turn leaves it wide open for the enemy to take it down oh so very quickly. <--- see this the most.
Your teammates get distracted DM'ing.
2 of your teamates are sitting at base. One on the tower trying to avril raptors, and the other just standing by the Raptor spawn hoping it will come up soon.
It is ESPECIALLY easy on MOST pubs because they all have SUPERWEAPONS = ON only IF you can keep the deemer out of thier hands. Get the home node up and deemer the mid or tank node.

2 good players on the same team in say 6v6, working together can easily make the comback happen.

What Majik said is true, if the other team are playing as a team, they'll have a tank on the hill defending the node...while this might be easy to deal with on it's own with a raptor, if they are playing as a team they'll have a guy next to the tank defending it with AVRiLs, healing it with the link and using spider mines if you come on foot. There's a weapon pick up there so he can keep replenishing weapons and while it may be possible to remove the tank and it's defender eventually with a concerted attack, all the time they'll have the other tank and raptors in your base attacking your core.

I've not played many clan matches on Torlan for this reason, most clans don't bother with it because it is such a badly designed map.

edhe
5th May 2005, 07:04 AM
Torlan would've been better had the weapon lockers been more apt for turning the tide at the base, imho.

rhirud
5th May 2005, 11:05 AM
I agree. Torlan's problems are to do with map design. If there was another raptor on the central tower, an avril in every locker, and another manta it would be far easier to make comebacks from the base.

As is said it's too easy for the other team to blockade the base.

The thing is that since the game was designed from scratch, it was impossible to say what made a good map. But let's face it -after the game was released, Epic still haven't really grasped things. What posessed them to release primeval as a "demo" map??

Many of titan's maps have been tweaked a lot to allow them to flow; prevent bottlenecks, not allow small events at the start of a game to dominate the flow of the rest of the game -and allow enough transport for each player.

Good maps are initially about vision; then a decent node design; then tweaking after playtesting with a lot of experienced players.

In my mind, the map that is closest to perfect that I've seen is ONS-Ahebban (I'm biased - it ws made by a titan regular.)

It's big enough - but not too massive, has plenty of transport, the core is defendable - and has enough vehichles to stage a comeback. The node layout is inspired; with no bottlenecks; there's a "stonehenge" area where DM ers can run around without being an easy target for vehichles; no nodes can be destroyed from too far away.... It just works.

JaFO
6th May 2005, 09:56 AM
It's pretty easy to prevent the enemy from even gaining 2 tanks in Torlan. You need a node-network that ties the tank-node directly to the core. That would allow the team to gain control of the tank-node and some additional firepower ...

There may be some tweaks that can be done to either maps or gameplay that can make combacks easier, but it shouldn't be too easy. It still will depend on proper teamwork.

What ONS probably really needs is to have a 'guide' of sorts so (new) players at least have a chance of knowing where to be to attack/defend for their team. I think that Epic could learn a few things from the way Pariah's FLA works ...

edhe
6th May 2005, 10:42 AM
If you linked the tank node to the core then you'd be royally Royally ****ed.

Unless you mean to the core and only the core.

Onslaught's imbalanced, Epic admitted that much, and they'll be totally reworking the next revision \o/