...and then there is the Shock Rifle.

[1337]

Has anyone heard as to what they, the 'Envy' game developers, have in mind for the most popular weapon in the UT series (my opinion; I'm not going to refute anyone else's). For me, one of the most rewarding experiences while learning how to play ut2k4 was becoming efficient in executing shock combos while moving at the same time. I then learned how to fire two shock balls and then shoot a beam into both of them in that exact sequence, while moving around at the same time. This takes a lot of effort and concentration to do. It is a rewarding experience everytime I do this, even when playing around offline.

I hope they keep the abilty to use your hand-eye coordination and spacial awareness to the same advanced level you are able to in ut2k4. The thing that keeps me into ut2k4 is the learning curve; there are so many different things you can learn to whore; loads of specialty jumps on every map and there are so many different variations in the way you can do things; you go through epiphanies that improve your game and give you the ability to do things that you couldn't do before (ex: learning how to time the dodge jump correctly, which opens the door to a lot of new jumps on different maps.)

So what experiences have you all had with the shock rifles from different games in the ut series? What aspects of the shock rifle did you love and what things would you like to see integrated into the next game?

[Ignotium]

lol, pushing people down to death with the shock beam, even teammates

[Olga]

I hate it when servers disable projectile momentum.

[1337]

One thing I dislike about the shock rifle in ut2k4 is the shock balls. I think they deal out too much damage. I think it would better if you didn't feel the need to move out of the way of a shock ball because of the outrageous 40 damage it deals to you, but because of the shock rifle user's competence in hitting shock combos and to stop getting my shot from being absorbed into it. People don't use the shock for alt fire so why add in an extra bonus for failed shock combos? But what is done is done.

I know the new shock rifle is going to be entirely different and innovated which is great, but I just hope they keep the same elements in that make shock rifle such a fun weapon for more advanced players. Make it so it is hard to use the weapons in a certain way, but if you can use it in that way, you get a slight advantage to other players that haven't yet learned to use the weapon in that more advanced way. Give us something to make a frag vid about.

[NeoNite]

One thing I dislike about the shock rifle in ut2k4 is the shock balls. I think they deal out too much damage. I think it would better if you didn't feel the need to move out of the way of a shock ball because of the outrageous 40 damage it deals to you, but because of the shock rifle user's competence in hitting shock combos and to stop getting my shot from being absorbed into it. People don't use the shock for alt fire so why add in an extra bonus for failed shock combos? But what is done is done.



Really?
I should check how much damage an UT shockrifle "shockball" dishes out.. I think it's even worse. The UT shock is one deadly sob, but I love it.

Funny how you can get a monsterkill with that thing. And I mean, 5 targets fragged with one shock combo.

But well, I've no idea what the UT2K4 shockrifle is like, compared to the UT shockrifle.

[Discord]

But well, I've no idea what the UT2K4 shockrifle is like, compared to the UT shockrifle.

Ball moves slower and IIRC is a little larger, combo has smaller blast radius. Net result is that combos are easier to pull off, but have less capacity for mass destruction. Some people argue that the combo is a little over- used in UT2k4 as a result.

But yeah, the ASMD (heh) is a staple of UT and couldn't be done away with any more than dodging, IMO.

[Selerox]

Discord']Some people argue that the combo is a little over- used in UT2k4 as a result.

The combo is used a lot right now, on a FFA server you can't move for combos sometimes. One thing that I think is way too powerful right now is the shock primary. Total accuracy, 40 damage, fast rate of fire and huge knockback makes it one of the most powerful weapons around, and in my opinion, right now it's too powerful. Maybe drop the damage to 30?

As for the secondary fire, I hope to remove the feature that makes it seem to block pretty much any shot that passes through it, meaning people can spam with it to make a moving "wall" sometimes.

[Mr.Magnetichead]

I do and have always hated the ASMD.

[Ignotium]

I've always loved the team combos

[Dark Pulse]

The combo is used a lot right now, on a FFA server you can't move for combos sometimes. One thing that I think is way too powerful right now is the shock primary. Total accuracy, 40 damage, fast rate of fire and huge knockback makes it one of the most powerful weapons around, and in my opinion, right now it's too powerful. Maybe drop the damage to 30?

As for the secondary fire, I hope to remove the feature that makes it seem to block pretty much any shot that passes through it, meaning people can spam with it to make a moving "wall" sometimes.
Primary was much slower in 99. But then the ball travelled faster...

[Discord]

right now it's too powerful

I'd agree. Given that it's also extremely effective against vehicles, I'd be willing to say it's the most powerful weapon in UT2k4. The only weapon it really seems to have any trouble going up against is rockets... you have to jump around too much when being attacked by rockets to get a proper bead on somebody, let alone pull a combo.

[Selerox]

Discord']The only weapon it really seems to have any trouble going up against is rockets... you have to jump around too much when being attacked by rockets to get a proper bead on somebody, let alone pull a combo.

The trouble with that is that rockets are detonated by shock secondary. If a shock player uses it right, it can block rockets. I know this from experience :hmm:

[Death Cube K]

Not just rockets either, I've already lost count how many times a shock ball hit my fully charged goo and set it off, killing me instantly in the process.

[1337]

I'd actually prefer the secondary shock to not interact with the environment, but instead only be a ghost ball that drifts though things and people(not walls) till someone detonates it with primary shock. Or atleast make it do less than 40 damage. It might as well not even do any damage because of all the other beneficial properties it has. Blocking incoming fire, 40 damage, and a potential shock combo is too much.

Shock is very effective against floaty and light vehicles. The most effective weapons are prim flak and prim shock, making other weapons pointless in ONS. One thing they'll have to change in the next UT is the balance between foot soldiers and vehicles. The only use for most floaty vehicles is the extra armor and the fast speed and vehicles being easy to hit with hitscan doesn't anger me because if I couldn't defend myself against a flimsy vehicle then what would be the purpose of not operating a vehicle? What is even more silly is when people run straight at you and don't except to get hit with 100% accuracy

The only reason I don't hit vehicles 100% percent with a hitscan weapon is because of the crappy choppy fps I get during ONS maps. And shock primary devastates floaty vehicles like raptor, manta, cicada, and the scorpion, no other weapon is as effective as shock primary except flak primary which can only be used in close range. I wouldn't touch the AVRIL if I didn't get such crappy fps. But the hardest part in making a game is trying to keep the weapons balanced in every skill level. In lower levels, players can't hit vehicles with shock consistently and they don't have good aim. It would pretty silly to expect the weapons to be balanced in a wide open level when hitscan will own regardless of how well they balanced the weapons.

One thing I'd hate to see is the game makers changing shock rifle to suit vehicle combat more than what ut series is well known for, which would be CTF and TDM. Maybe they should make maps that appeal to different people. Like make a map for novices and make a map for people that have good aim and prediction skills. Don't include shock rifle in a wide open map if people like getting road rage kills and such. But most people that complain about shock hitscan are the ones that don't understand the "don't run straight at your opponent" aspect of ut2k4. Use the map to your advantage. Swoop down with rockets. Time it so right when your opponent walks around a corner he gets a bunch of link prim in his face. It isn't about running in a straight line to your opponent, whenever you see him.

Hitscan skill should still be rewarded, but instead of trying to nerf hitscan weapons to make more balanced play in large levels maybe they should get rid of the hitscan weapon pickups in large levels. Vehicles all have their uses. Scorpion manta and raptor are used for getting around to an advantageous location quickly. Tanks are made to be badass and effective in holding a locations if supported by foot soldiers that hitscan raptors and fast moving vehicles, but they are slow getting around. The goliath with it's hitscan splash fire can hold a pathway very effectively but it's slow turret makes it less effective against fast vehicles that have already breached the field of fire that tank dominates, into a closer proximity, while the paladin uses it's shield to hold an area against fire from long distances while also keeping vehicles and players from getting in close proximity by the centralized shock wave feature you can use by having shield up and firing into the shield. The Cicada brings a real cool concept in with the indirect fire and fast z axis movement. Leviathan is just a badass vehicle. If mantas and raptors could get to a location fast and also have the ability to hold it's own against skilled foot soldiers it would be imbalanced. Mantas and fast vehicles should not have more armor or be more damaging, they suit their purpose. And hitscan should always be effective in a large map made for hitscan. If you want a map where vehicles easily mash through foot soldiers then get rid of hitscan in that map.

[-AEnubis-]

I think some minor weapon tweaks will be made for vehicle interaction, but that is why there are "seperate weapons" for those gametypes. For the most part, they seem to balance the weapons for DM, and then balance the other gametypes accordingly.

I personally thing shock is way nerfed by ammo. A combo costs you 5 ammo to do, that is only 4 combos on weapon pickup.

40 damage is a fair price to pay, especially considering:
Is prevents up to 300 damage.
If the target is trying to "combo" you, he usually only has one core out to do it.
That core moves slow, and at most ranges, is easy to avoid.
If target does have the capacity to shoot multiple cores, and then combo the oppropriate one, or corral you with some to combo you with one, he has skill, and deserves the kill.
You do spawn with a method of "reflecting" the core.
You can counter the core.
You as well can combo the core.

The one thing I will agree is unbalanced about the SR is it's primary ROF. Same damage and push, it should be back at what it was in UT. Everything else about it has a balance IMO.

Things I'd like too see change about it... I liked a lot of the aspects of the combo in UT better. I liked the core speed. Made it insanely difficult to do moving combos. It was cool because it made it more gratifying when you did them. It also made it easier to counter a combo by moving the target (via beam, or rocket, etc). It also made the minimum combo distance tighter. There were no "get away from me" combos. You already had to be away from the target to worry about it. Core's, weren't as easy to use for regular damage. At current, you can almost shoot the at peoples feet like rockets, and even if splash doesn't do substantial damage, it moves you like crazy, making juggling, or weapon combos easy with it. The radius is crazy.

As cool, and difficult as double combos are, it's sacrifice is a small price to pay to reduce beam spam. There already was so much depth to shock anyways, I don't think it needs much more stuff like that.

Shock has had, does have and always will have a wicked learning curve, and I think that's part of why it's so controversial. The difference between UT and UT200X is, before the difficulty was in learning to use it. Now, the difficulty lies in learning to counter it. Many aspects of shock are way easier to use, so the focus has to be on avoidance. In either way, it's the difference of a skill teir.

[1337]

I dislike stand still combos. I wouldn't want to have stand still combos anymore effective than they are right now.
I think a less damaging shock primary fire would be better in my opinion, becuase without it's rof it would be too similar to sniper. And I think the thing pissing most people off is the shock balls absorbing everything.

I don't think doing combos while standing still should be as rewarding as it is right now. Non-absorbing shock balls would have made it so standing shock comboers would be a lot easier to defend against. One logical reason why the shock prim does 45 damage with the rof it has is because it is much harder to hit 3 shots in a row on someone with that rof. The lg yields higher percentages because you don't have to continuously keep your mouse on the person, but I think the knock back of primary on shock might make it more easier to hit someone with multiple shots in quick succession, plus having a hitscan weapon capable of dishing out more damage per second than the lightning gun (which is only hitscan), shock combo, and fire splash damage projectile that absorb everything all in on weapon is way to overpowered. I think the shock prim would be ok with it's rof if it did 35 damage.

[-AEnubis-]

I dont' think anything hit-scan should have that ROF. I also think it's similarity to the sniper rifle shouldn't be an issue, because it should as well have an increased ROF. Also, it not having a zoom limits it a bit, and really the point of shock in no way shape or form should be about the beam. With a higher ROF, and same damage, you wouldn't want to pull it for the beam, because it's not effective. That would put more focus on the gun for it's versitility, and not because of any one aspect it has that is too proficient.

There in lies the beauty of the UT Shock Rifle. The beam wasn't so fast, or damaging that it rivaled the Sniper Rifle (unlike now where people are 50/50 on what they prefer for their hit-scan whoring). The cores weren't fast enough, nor did they fire at a high enough ROF to rival Pulse, nor did they do enough damage, or have a big enough spalsh radius to rival the Rocket Launcher. Each was it's own, and only gained it's excessive lethality to all being at your disposal at one time (especially considering the slower switch times). If you pulled the Shock Rifle for any one reason before, it was for the combo. Now, it depends too much on the situation, and it's effective in too many situatons.

I do prefer the old collision system for cores though (UT). Goo killed cores. Made goo way cooler. Grens should kill cores as well, though realistic story justification of that would be difficult when cores kill Rockets, and Flak, which I don't mind. As well, anything that blocks hit-scan is justified.

[1337]

I dont' think anything hit-scan should have that ROF. I also think it's similarity to the sniper rifle shouldn't be an issue, because it should as well have an decreased ROF... the point of shock in no way shape or form should be about the beam. With a higher ROF, and same damage, you wouldn't want to pull it for the beam, because it's not effective. That would put more focus on the gun for it's versitility, and not because of any one aspect it has that is too proficient. I'd have that gun out more than any other gun if I cared about the score and didn't find hitscan boring. 45 damage and increased rate of fire with momentum, that would be wickedly effective. You practically could push people backwards with that thing.If you pulled the Shock Rifle for any one reason before, it was for the combo. Now, it depends too much on the situation, and it's effective in too many situatons.Yes I agree. I think they should reduce the effectiveness of the shockrifle's hitscan. The only problem is there needing to be another effective hitscan weapon that adds variety to the game, because having one effective hitscan weapon (sniper if shock is nerfed) when hitscan rules the game would make the game boring. But there is only so much they can do to the balance the game. Hitscan will always rule in the more skilled matches, unless the hitscan is nerfed to the point where it is never effective in medium skilled matches.

It seems UT's shock combo was a stand still weapon. Being able to hit mutiple combos in quick succession or firing a combo then dodgin off a wall and hitting the combo is a lot cooler than standing combos. It's like air rox compared to shooting at someone's feet with rockets.

I hope the next shock rifle, regardless of rof or damage, can be used in many different artful ways. I enjoy dodging and moving around while hitting shock combos. It takes practice and a good connection but it adds a lot of depth to the game.

[-AEnubis-]

I'll full well admit that my view on moving combos is baised. I just liked it better before, because if you could hit moving combos, you were like 1 in 100, where as now it's more like 1 in 15. If you have UT, I can show you a demo. The net code being updated will prolly make moving combos way easier, even if they full out bring UT shock back. The biggest problem with them before was how ping effected them. Now, that aspect is not so bad.

The only two known hitscan weapons to even be in the next game are Shock and Shaft.

[edhe]

I liked becoming a total shock h0 in UT :)

[Kronon]

I liked the shock in Unreal. 500 in damage at the center, and a blast radius more than twice as long as in UT2004. If you did a combo in the middle of the elevator room on deck (where the 50a is) every part of the room was covered in the blast. Now that was a dominating weapon :)

/Kronon

[edhe]

I hope they make it majorly powerful again in Envy :B

[-AEnubis-]

...and hard to use to compensate.

[Selerox]

...and hard to use to compensate.

Agreed. There needs to be a balance there, or it'll be either combo spam hell, or it'll have a nightmare learning curve which will stick up a huge gap between vets and new players. I think UT99 had it about right.

[1337]

I liked the shock in Unreal. 500 in damage at the center, and a blast radius more than twice as long as in UT2004. If you did a combo in the middle of the elevator room on deck (where the 50a is) every part of the room was covered in the blast. Now that was a dominating weapon :)

/KrononThe only thing was in Unreal you could you gather over 500 armor and health, I think but not sure. It would be fine if the shock combo was that powerful, but then they'd need to make everything else twice as powerful aswell.

I liked how you could dodge away from things in ut2k4 too, I think it would be fun for other people too if they ditched hitscan. But I guess the way shock combo worked in UT is if you could take the shock comboer out before he executes the combo with some other instagib weapon then you'd be safe or if you got in close enough range so the shock combo wasn't effective. Plus the person couldn't switch fast enough in time if you somehow managed to breach the combo effectiveness range and with the insane powerfulness of other weapons, you could easily chew through the enemy before he could switch to a weapon that would better suit close range combat.

Instagib weapons are fine, but not with quick weapon switch. Because, then it would be a matter of who has what weapon in their possession, not how well they make the situation favor whatever weapon they have out at that time. Slow weapon switch is better for powerful weapons. Fast weapon switching is fun for people that like putting more shots in to take someone out. Headshot, some shock up in there, then mini or link. Or lightning to stop someone's dodge or get their attention, then flak. Or shock combo and while the person is flying in the air tap him with primary a couple times so you make him flop before he drops. Or fire flak at someones feet as he dodges towards you so he flys in the air, then shard him in the air; these last two would be an example of faster firerates making less powerful weapons fun.

So basically, if they were to make weapons more powerful they'd have to get rid of the fast weapon switch. Or else it wouldn't be fun at all, because imagine someone taking shots at you with sniper which is basically instagib, and then you dodge all of his shots and once you get in close range he pulls out a close range weapon almost instantaneously. That would suck.

In UT you could get frags without being consistent. In ut2k4 you have to be more consistent to get a frag. You have to ride on someone awhile before they'll drop. I think it makes the game more intimate. Also I think it's harder to balance the game that has more damaging weapons and slow weapon switch.

I can remember back when I hit someone with a couple rockets and when I didn't kill them I got pissed off. And when I hit someone with lightning three times and they didn't die I'd get frustrated. And I never switched between two different weapons. I only tried to get someone with one weapon. I had auto switch after pickup on. I had rockets at the highest priority ofcourse. I think what really makes the game fun is the type of people that play it. You are always confronted with asshats in public servers. Getting a big ego over teh internets, calling people noobs and such. I found servers that have a good vibe to them now, and I know people by their playing style. I enjoy the intimacy that less damaging weapons brings to the game. I know most people that are clanned in ut2k4, or have played it a lot and sticked with the game, even if they aren't in the top ranks in ut2k4 can rage people in other games, like CS and such, that have less of a learning curve. But they play ut2k4 because they enjoy the advanced learning curve and so many different aspects integrated into the gameplay. Especially, with gametypes where you have to move around the map only on foot and maps aren't wide open so you can use a variety of different weapons and advanced movements to get around and control the level.

[T2A`]

45 damage and increased rate of fire with momentum, that would be wickedly effective. You practically could push people backwards with that thing.Would be? WTF. That's how the shock is RIGHT NOW.

Believe me. I call this game Shock Rifle Tournament 2004 for good reason. If you are the man with it, there is little reason to learn any other weapon aside from learning how to spin around fast and flak people up close for an emergency situation.

How to fix it? Simple: Keep balance in mind when designing the new one.

RoF
I like the current RoF, but 45 damage per shot with that RoF is ri-f*cking-diculous. Move it back to 30 and now we're talking. With 30 damage, it takes 4 shots for a kill off a fresh spawn as opposed to 3. This'll also help drain ammo a bit more, because, really, when was the last time you had any trouble getting ammo with weapon throwing in the game?

Push-back
Reduce the transfer of velocity each primary shot gives. There needs to be some to make it useful for pushing people off ledges and stuff, but don't make it as powerful as it is right now. You get hit with it and you cannot dodge away because you're in the air, thus making the second and third shots towards your death inevitable.

Ball Spam
Shock cores need balancing for sure. Either make their damage really low or make the damage really high but make its effective radius and push really small. If you only have a shock rifle and someone gets close to you, you should be in trouble unless you're good with the primary at very near distances. As it stands now, you're not in trouble. At all. Just spam the cores at the person's feet to either kill them or push them away to set up for a primary shot. Too easy. Additionally, the cores should block NO OTHER WEAPON FIRE. That may be a bit too much idealistic thinking on my part, but at the very least have it only block rockets and/or flak shells. The fact that I can be aiming for someone's head with LtG and have my shot blocked by a core they just so happened to shoot as soon as I fired is ri-f*cking-diculous. You can practically hide behind a wall of shock core spam and flee behind a corner, only to lie in wait with a combo as the person comes around the corner. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

Combos
I don't really have any ideas for the combos, as I f*cking suck at them and can never hit them in any situation. I can miss standing combos like nobody's business. They are easier to pull off in 2004, but they're fairly easy to dodge if you know they're coming. The big problem is a lot of the time you can't tell. I couldn't count the number of times I've been trying to chase someone down with another weapon only to have them stop, shoot a core, then blow it up in my face before I can even react to the situation. They get the kill for a no-skill stand-still combo that I couldn't avoid.

Overall, I like the weapon, but it needs to be balanced, FFS. Make it hard to use to get its full power potential, but don't make it Jesus f*cking Christ reborn once you've mastered it.

[1337]

Push-back
Reduce the transfer of velocity each primary shot gives. There needs to be some to make it useful for pushing people off ledges and stuff, but don't make it as powerful as it is right now. You get hit with it and you cannot dodge away because you're in the air, thus making the second and third shots towards your death inevitable..The beam's momentum is excessive in CTF and TDM if you are charging someone, and this is why you need to shield when charging or trying to get a footing on the ground, but aggressive players don't like the shield. It's funny that the two most effective weapons against shock, in a wide open area that is also small enough for combos, are the shield and shock rifle. But I really like the momentum transfer against vehicles. It's effective against the vehicles that it needs to be effective against. It stops fast moving vehicles from flying straight at you and it is a good way to mess with flying vehicles that usually are untouched otherwise. There needs to be more weapons effective against vehicles or a shockrifle equivalent against vehicles for player-vehicle balance.

[-AEnubis-]

It's funny how you talk about cores blocking lightning being bad, yet, I try to intentionally hide behind my cores at distance, and poeple just shoot around them. I have to be the biggest LtG rod in this game.

If you had used shock, you could've gotten a combo kill.

I bloody can't express enough, my hatred for the ROF on shock prime. Dropping the damage won't fix it. I'd actually rather see the push increased a little bit, and damage stay the same, but have the ROF dramatically decreased, or at least as it was in UT. If the movement is closer to the way it was in UT, I think the UT shock will do just fine. Maybe a slight drop in damage on the beam and combo, but all in all, it was pretty ok back then. Still paled in comparison to the Sniper Rifle, and gods Minigun.

[Gnam]

I don't think the shock beam should be nerfed too much. The whole point of the shock rifle is supposed to be it's versatility, not just the raw power of shock combos. One of the many versatile features of the shock rifle has always been, and should continue to be, it's ability to attack competantly at long range without having to have a sniper rifle. While it should not be equal to the sniper/lightning at long range, is should be able to hold its own.

I think the most apropriate aproach to the shock rifle is to keep the stun/knockback the same but reduce the damage. Emphasize stunning the opponent and pushing off ledges over killing him outright, because that's more unique.

I think the ROF should also stay relatively fast, because the sniper rifle and lightning gun have allready been relegated to slow ROF railgun-type weapons. That way the shock rifle stays more unique and offers a faster rof for hitscan weapons. If the damage is low enough, the fast rate shouldn't be a problem.

I also have to disagree with the idea of "ghost shock cores" that don't interact with players at all except to activate combos. The shock ball has always been open to players as a means of close range defense. It's like an akward cross between a rocket, a pulse/link bolt, and a flak blast. Also, the simple fact is not every UT player is a combo god, and players shouldn't have to be a tourney goer just to do damage with alt fire. Just reduce the ROF or the damage, or something. IMO, combos should not be the sole purpose of the shock rifle or even of the alt fire.

As for the combos themselves, in hindsight, it's a little surprising that they've always been given so much power. The simple ability to detonate them on command rather than on impact with an obstacle would make them usefull and powerfull enough on their own. The fact that they also deal crippling damage is beside the point. I think the combo's tactical advantages should be emphasized over it's raw power. The main advantage of combos over a simple alt or primary fire should be the arbitrary, mid-air detonation point and relatively large blast radius, not the raw power of being one of the only sure methods of a one-hit kill in the game. If the target is not in a position where a large blast radius or set detonation point is required, than a regular shock core or beam should serve just as well.

And again, I have to emphasize, combos should not be the one and only purpose of shock rifles. Their main point is that versatily; moderate long range ability, moderate close range ability, and the combo fire for special situations.

As for ONS and vehicular combat, it sounds like the main problem is that other weapons aren't effective enough against vehicles, not that the shock is too effective. To an extent, I think vehicles bring things into a completely different ball-park, so adding weapons like the AVRIL built to deal exculsively with vehicles make sense, because they allow you to give footsoldiers a chance without messing with an balance that is allready delicate as it is in man vs man combat. However, the fact remains that the game is built around all these weapons, and leaving the AVRIL and shock as the only usefull weapons and ditching all the others is a cop-out. The weapons and vehicles need to be balanced so each and every weapon is as usefull in vehicular combat as with anti-personell combat. THe AVRIL is kind of a deus-ex-machina gimmick aproach, and for all I care, it could be tossed out in favor of making the other weapons more vehicle effective.

The same applies to range. Granted, the average ranges of UT's weapons is pretty well maximized compaired to games like Halo, where lots of spread is added to every weapon for no good reason and almost everything is useless beyond 20 yards. But it's still pretty low for the projectile weapons. I think the primary answer is acceleration. The projectiles should speed up drastically as they travel over long distances, instead of remaining the same all the time. Rockets did this in UT99, which is why they always seemed slow when firing at nearby enemies, but seemed to FLASH past you when fired at you by someone on the other side of Face. Acceleration was removed in UT2003/4, but if it was added to all projectiles in the next UT, they could maintain their effective range better over wide varieties of distances.

Also, for weapons like the minigun and assault rifle, using higher damage values coupled with larger spread will offer about the same level of power against small human targets, but will increase effectiveness against large vehicles targets.

The other thing is they could just make seperate versions of the weapons for ONS with increased power, speed, and blast radii, or whatever changes are necessary to balance things against vehicles, but since the modifications would be ONS-only, they would not interfere with DM, TDM, or CTF.

[-AEnubis-]

The raw total damage of a combo, has always been balanced by it's depeltion towards the outer radius of a combo. People rarey see the full damage happen, and if they do, they prolly deserved it (on either end).

[JohnDoe641]

For me, one of the most rewarding experiences while learning how to play ut2k4 was becoming efficient in executing shock combos while moving at the same time.
I dunno dude, moving combo in 2k4 were the easiest thing to master imho.

The core moves so slow that it's almost impossible to miss even with three secondaries fired depending on map size.

Double comboing in Unreal, now that was hard. :)

IMHO they should decrease the rate of fire and keep the damage around 40 or so for the primary. The secondary should deal the same amount of damage and the secondary should go much faster. Decreasing the combo splash radius and increasing the damage given from the core out would help reward prediction nicely. :)

[Kronon]

I had an idea before UT2003 was released: the shock ball should not travel exactly where you aim (random +- 5 degrees or so). That would make the still-standing combo harder, which would make the weapon harder to use and therefore easier to balance properly.

/Kronon

[Gnam]

I don't think standing combos need to be nerfed. The fact is, standing still in Unreal leaves you pretty ****ing vulnerable. It doesn't really work out in the open, because you're a sitting duck, so it's pretty much only usefull for hitting people as they chase you around a corner. If you know your opponent has a shock rifle, and you just run right in when you know they have time to combo, you deserve to die, whether they were moving when they did it or not. There's no point in nerfing standing combos just to stick it to the n00bs. They allready have it bad enough when other players are flying around the room and doing triple-combos while flying all over the place and bouncing off the walls.

One potential problem in UT2004 is the face that there are less options for corner shooting. In UT99, if you knew your opponent was going to try for a combo through a doorway, you could back up and send grenades around the corner with the RL, or use the Ripper, or ricochet flak. In UT2004, the RL has no option for corners, and while everyone starts with some grenades, they aren't very powerfull, and ammo is limited (AR ammo is only in a few places in the map, and it's not worth going out of your way to get it). There is no ripper, so your only other option is flak, which doesn't work well on narrow corners, nor when your opponent is a distance away from the wall. If there is a grenade launcher and ripper in the next UT, the standing-combo-at-the-corner trick will be more combateable.

[BooGiTyBoY]

Gee... I thought the secondary was for shock jumping. Silly me. ;)
I just hope it has some aspect of that in Envy and I'll be happy.
Shock-Combo-Jumpad-Boost for teh win!

[-AEnubis-]

I highly doubt damage propulsion will change.

That was actually a competative aspect of some other FPS's that people discredited Useries games for, is the ability to shoot people you couldn't see (around corners and such). Most people get this crazy notion that if you can't see your target, it's spam. Those same people think Hit-scan is the mad skills.

UT did have a bit much though. I don't miss grens on the RL, and the ripper could return nerfed a bit, but that's another discussion. Too make multiple flak bounces balanced, they'd really need to have a damage x velocity multiplyer. I used to die so much from stepping on near sill flak shards, it was rediculous.

Honestly, despite loving 2kx, and it's more balanced weapons, I really do miss many aspects of UT weapons, and I hate to say it, but hope they move much of envy towards it. Not so much the weapon lethality, but damn near every other weapon aspsects of most signature weapons, barring Snipe and Mini of course.

Goo size, loft, and stay time. Shock everything but damage. Flack bomb to shard geometry, and blast radius.

Goo used to be cool. (http://www.yomomshouse.com/AE/Goo1-divx502.avi)

[Arsenalvendetta]

So what experiences have you all had with the shock rifles from different games in the ut series?

This is by far the funniest experience I have had with the shock rifle. A bot was armed with a shock rifle and I an assault rifle. So I decided to take my chance with the shield gun because of its deflective attribute. As soon as I whipped it out the bot shot a shock ball which deflected on my shield and was headed towards his direction. He further shot a shock beam which again deflected on my shield gun and connected with he's shock ball, which fortunately for me was right next to him. He was fragged instantly... and in whose favour was the frag awarded to... mine. :lol:

[gades]

One thing I dislike about the shock rifle in ut2k4 is the shock balls. I think they deal out too much damage. I think it would better if you didn't feel the need to move out of the way of a shock ball because of the outrageous 40 damage it deals to you, but because of the shock rifle user's competence in hitting shock combos and to stop getting my shot from being absorbed into it. People don't use the shock for alt fire so why add in an extra bonus for failed shock combos? But what is done is done.

Heh, you should have seen ut99, shockballs did 70 damage back then, and a high rate of fire to boot! That was overpowered. But as they are now, the shockballs are fine as they are, and are actually useful up close, due to it's splash damage and high rate of fire, you can actually keep bouncing your enemy with this.

The combo is fine too, you can save yourself from one if you're good with the shieldgun.

[Kriegs-Maschine]

Would be? WTF. That's how the shock is RIGHT NOW.

Believe me. I call this game Shock Rifle Tournament 2004 for good reason. If you are the man with it, there is little reason to learn any other weapon aside from learning how to spin around fast and flak people up close for an emergency situation.

How to fix it? Simple: Keep balance in mind when designing the new one.

RoF
I like the current RoF, but 45 damage per shot with that RoF is ri-f*cking-diculous. Move it back to 30 and now we're talking. With 30 damage, it takes 4 shots for a kill off a fresh spawn as opposed to 3. This'll also help drain ammo a bit more, because, really, when was the last time you had any trouble getting ammo with weapon throwing in the game?

Push-back
Reduce the transfer of velocity each primary shot gives. There needs to be some to make it useful for pushing people off ledges and stuff, but don't make it as powerful as it is right now. You get hit with it and you cannot dodge away because you're in the air, thus making the second and third shots towards your death inevitable.

Ball Spam
Shock cores need balancing for sure. Either make their damage really low or make the damage really high but make its effective radius and push really small. If you only have a shock rifle and someone gets close to you, you should be in trouble unless you're good with the primary at very near distances. As it stands now, you're not in trouble. At all. Just spam the cores at the person's feet to either kill them or push them away to set up for a primary shot. Too easy. Additionally, the cores should block NO OTHER WEAPON FIRE. That may be a bit too much idealistic thinking on my part, but at the very least have it only block rockets and/or flak shells. The fact that I can be aiming for someone's head with LtG and have my shot blocked by a core they just so happened to shoot as soon as I fired is ri-f*cking-diculous. You can practically hide behind a wall of shock core spam and flee behind a corner, only to lie in wait with a combo as the person comes around the corner. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

Combos
I don't really have any ideas for the combos, as I f*cking suck at them and can never hit them in any situation. I can miss standing combos like nobody's business. They are easier to pull off in 2004, but they're fairly easy to dodge if you know they're coming. The big problem is a lot of the time you can't tell. I couldn't count the number of times I've been trying to chase someone down with another weapon only to have them stop, shoot a core, then blow it up in my face before I can even react to the situation. They get the kill for a no-skill stand-still combo that I couldn't avoid.

Overall, I like the weapon, but it needs to be balanced, FFS. Make it hard to use to get its full power potential, but don't make it Jesus f*cking Christ reborn once you've mastered it.


Finaly someone can understand me... I really agree at 100% about everything you just said. Shock Rifle as it is right now in UT2004 is just fuc**** lame as hell and way too powerful and overused. I won't argue a lot about it as most of what I think have been already said. I like your comments too Aenubis ;)

[SCAGBARON]

Quote: "Additionally, the cores should block NO OTHER WEAPON FIRE. That may be a bit too much idealistic thinking on my part, but at the very least have it only block rockets and/or flak shells."

Nothing more rewarding then blocking a potential goober and having them goo kill themselves in the process though!

[-AEnubis-]

No, that feels dirty. In UT goo ate shock. It was much better, and made more use of bio, in that spamming normal fire goo at a comboer, could stop oncoming combos.

Personally, with the nature of lightning, I think it should create a second kind of combo. All energy weapons IMO could interact with each other like that, and it could be cool, link, shock, and lightning alike.

It would also make sense if they at least all negated each other.

I guess in the end, I just hope whatever they decide with it is balanced, as well as believeable, and possibly explained.

[kafros]

nice post from Turns2Ashes

I agree that shock combos are quite easy to pull in UT2004 and this is against my favor most of the time. On the other hand it is such a rewarding frag...

Plus it is the weapon that saves my a$$ in ONS...

I wouldn't mind the push if it didnt get you in the air (so that you can continue dodging).

[T2A`]

Personally, with the nature of lightning, I think it should create a second kind of combo. All energy weapons IMO could interact with each other like that, and it could be cool, link, shock, and lightning alike.That would be pretty suite, and they could get creative and make lots of fun for the whole family. For example, if you shoot a shock core, and someone pegs it with a lightning gun, the lightning gets trapped in there, so if you nail the thing for a combo, the combo happens and does all its normal damage, but the lightning inside the core travels up your shock beam and hits you anyway (maybe not full damage, but something). If you see someone shoot your core, you'd know you would get hurt by doing the combo, but you'd have to decide if it was worth it or not.

Or maybe when you shoot the combo you hear a enomous explosion of thunder and as lightning is shot out in all directions and immediately fries everyone within the combo's field of view. That would be hilarious.

[Kriegs-Maschine]

That would be pretty suite, and they could get creative and make lots of fun for the whole family. For example, if you shoot a shock core, and someone pegs it with a lightning gun, the lightning gets trapped in there, so if you nail the thing for a combo, the combo happens and does all its normal damage, but the lightning inside the core travels up your shock beam and hits you anyway (maybe not full damage, but something). If you see someone shoot your core, you'd know you would get hurt by doing the combo, but you'd have to decide if it was worth it or not.

Or maybe when you shoot the combo you hear a enomous explosion of thunder and as lightning is shot out in all directions and immediately fries everyone within the combo's field of view. That would be hilarious.

lol i'm sure your the only one to have though about this idea but yeah it would be really cool. :lol:

[Gumby]

Playing tennis with shock balls and shield guns is well funny :D

[SanitysEdge]

Nerfed shock gun = one of the reasons why UT2003 sucked.
The UT Shock gun did something like 60 for primary and 45 for secondary. It pwned.

[Kriegs-Maschine]

Nerfed shock gun = one of the reasons why UT2003 sucked.
The UT Shock gun did something like 60 for primary and 45 for secondary. It pwned.

Thats way too much damage, but also considering that it was shooting/reloading much slower etc... would make it more balanced (if I can remember).

Also dunno if any of you tryed the UT classic mutator in UT2004, but the rockets were damn slow lol, didn't know it was this much.

[T2A`]

I seem to recall the shock secondary doing more damage than the primary... Maybe I just heard wrong.

[Kriegs-Maschine]

I seem to recall the shock secondary doing more damage than the primary... Maybe I just heard wrong.

I remember I were using a lot more shock balls in UT99 than primary (I think lol) and I can really not remember at all what looked combos in UT99.

A lot of people seem to have forgot about the "Spining Blade Gun", was quite a cool one.

[krjal]

Ah, the ripper. My long lost friend.

Hio everyone, first post here!

(in like 5 years)

[-AEnubis-]

No one forgot the ripper, they just know what it was called ;).

Yeah, direct core hits did up to 80 in hardcore, combos like 500 at the center, and only cost 4 ammo. Yet seemed faily balanced without all the beam spam... Still dunno what the point of that was.