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rhirud
14th Apr 2005, 05:05 AM
Another thing I hope that will be sorted out in envy.

I loathe spidermines, but see their use to allow novices to get some kills.

But when it gets to situations like severance with 5 players, each deploying 8 spidermines in a confined area- it all gets a bit stupid.

Simple solution - if a spidermine strikes a teammates spidermine - both explode.

Nahand
14th Apr 2005, 06:42 AM
... didn't they remove Spidermines from the concept?...

Dark Pulse
14th Apr 2005, 07:18 AM
Nope, they're combined into the Canister Gun with the Biorifle and the Grenade Launcher.

Nahand
14th Apr 2005, 07:32 AM
... they'd be ammo-cut then, i assume. As in a rare ammo pack of SpiderMs gives you 3 or 1 of it, being goo and normal grenades the more used in a game (Cannister Gun actually starting with normal grenades, in the logical way)...

... of course, any would-be mapper wouldn't be stopped adding a crap-load of SpiderMine ammo all around... pretty much like the crap-loaded Redeemer maps that exist...

carmatic
14th Apr 2005, 07:45 AM
... of course, any would-be mapper wouldn't be stopped adding a crap-load of SpiderMine ammo all around... pretty much like the crap-loaded Redeemer maps that exist...

i know! lets make it so that the spidermines explode like redeemers!

Tournament0
14th Apr 2005, 09:14 AM
Personnaly, I don't think anyone will use the Spidermines.

JaFO
14th Apr 2005, 10:31 AM
So because some people are so stupid that they walk into an enclosed area filled with spidermines that weapon should be removed ???
If you want to go that route then why not remove all weapons and limit it to a single nerfgun.

Sjees ... using your brain and fragging the spidermines never occurred to you, eh ?

Of all the area-effect grenade-like weapons the spidermines have got to be the most fun weapon ever. Second only to the instakill snot-shot ...

carmatic
14th Apr 2005, 10:40 AM
spidermines are good for laying traps and stuff, but if only they can cling onto surfaces as well as the tank can in places like articstronghold...

the way i use them makes them kind of pointless anyway, like they get shot to pieces before i do anything with them most of the time, they self destruct when i die, they are in the wrong place most of the time, etc etc...
but if you find someone in a vehicle, and you force him out... then the spidermines will make for a big fight... especially when you shoot a few to keep him running, then use a hitscan weapon or something when he's moving around predictably... i tried to do just that, never quite worked tho... sometimes its the mines blowing up in front of me when hes shooting me with a minigun, sometimes he kills me anyway when im trying to shoot him, sometimes the mine layer was the only gun i have other than the shield and the assault rifle....

JaFO
14th Apr 2005, 10:54 AM
Spidermines sticking to walls & ceilings ... that would be scary. I'd love the little bastards even more that way.

Bot_40
14th Apr 2005, 11:00 AM
I personally hate spider mines, but I imagine they will be included. imo they should be less powerfull against players (2 mines to kill a player = too easy to get kills with them) and more powerfull against vehicles.
What should DEFINITELY be changed is the fact you can fling them half way across the map if you fire whilst dodging.

Nahand
14th Apr 2005, 11:15 AM
Spidermines sticking to walls & ceilings ... that would be scary. I'd love the little bastards even more that way.

... the [theorethical] meaning of Bio ammo is, then, lost, i think...

iron12
14th Apr 2005, 12:19 PM
Donít blame the weapon some maps are designed to be spidermine spamfests.

Just realize that everybody is getting blown up. Donít get mad just grab a spidermine gun and spam away. Try not to take it so serious and enjoy the wackiness.

The next map might be more to your liking.

Peregrine
14th Apr 2005, 12:39 PM
Flak Ball + Gaggle of Spidermines = no spidermines.
I love takling them out actually. LOL

Bot_40
14th Apr 2005, 12:41 PM
It's just another thing that's helping drive away serious players though. Quite often I'm having a great time playing some good ons matches then primeval comes up and the decent players just end up leaving (myself included :p)
It's just a mess, and the fact it's included with the demo also means now 50% of ons servers are rotating primeval and torlan :hmm:

JaFO
14th Apr 2005, 01:50 PM
... the [theorethical] meaning of Bio ammo is, then, lost, i think...
but those blobs are a bit too unpredictable.
A spidermine could sit there (almost) forever and at least have a chance of hitting something.

// --
As for it 'driving away' serious players ... I'd submit that anyone that runs away just because a map isn't their favourite can't be a serious player at all.

Discord
14th Apr 2005, 03:42 PM
I personally hate spider mines, but I imagine they will be included. imo they should be less powerfull against players (2 mines to kill a player = too easy to get kills with them) and more powerfull against vehicles.
What should DEFINITELY be changed is the fact you can fling them half way across the map if you fire whilst dodging.


Yep. I hate 'em as well, and the "1/2 damage to players" nerf is one that had occurred to me. Other possibilities:

- max deployment cut from 8 to 4 or 5

- I like the explosion on contact with enemy spider idea. The thought of two miners having their own little RTS duel in the middle of a firefight sounds funny. Would be even better if spiders acquired other spiders as targets.

- spiders can't travel more than, say, 500 uu from a flag, node or other objective owned by their team and have no other restrictions. I like this one the best, it allows them to be used as a strong defense but not for annoying spam purposes (kinda like real mines, no?). Mines laid outside the "fence" would head for the nearest authorized area without attacking anybody.


At any rate, given what Epic did to the xloc and also given that they're planning to subdue the movement a little, I'd be very surprised if the spiders weren't toned down in some way for the next game.

I'd submit that anyone that runs away just because a map isn't their favourite can't be a serious player at all.

I'd agree with you if public ONS matches didn't tend to run into the 60 minutes plus range... you could cycle at least 3 maps in any other gametype in that time.

CountBloody
14th Apr 2005, 04:08 PM
From what I read here is that some of you don't like the spidermines for your own reasons. You know that you can shot them when thier just sitting on the ground, that or learn to use your shield gun when the spiders are chasing you. Plus you can only lay 8 spidermines before you lay another one. Meaning if you lay 8 then try to lay one more, one of the first spidermine(s) that you laied will blow up. Or try & shoot/frag the player that's laying the spidermines.

I should know...I use the spidermines alot in ONS, & I know some of the spidemines weakness.

I'm happy that it the next UT, the spidermines are combined with the Biorifle and the Grenade Launcher into the Canister Gun. That should be a blast to use.

Discord
14th Apr 2005, 04:18 PM
From what I read here is that some of you don't like the spidermines for your own reasons. You know that you can shot them when thier just sitting on the ground, that or learn to use your shield gun when the spiders are chasing you. Plus you can only lay 8 spidermines before you lay another one. Meaning if you lay 8 then try to lay one more, one of the first spidermine(s) that you laied will blow up. Or try & shoot/frag the player that's laying the spidermines.

Nah. Most people know that stuff, how to counter them etc. etc.

I can't speak for everyone, but my objection to them is almost completely aesthetic. Having to deal with them disrupts the "groove" of the game in a way that no other weapon (or even vehicle) seems to for me. And actually using them always feels more like an expedient to me (a chore, almost) than something I look forward to spending my leisure time doing.

Like I said, for defense they make sense to me... but if I had my way of things, when it came time to "get my frag on" so to speak I'd rather not see them.

It's kind of like the way some people hate the translocator, I guess.

Peregrine
14th Apr 2005, 04:22 PM
I like the mines, but

"I can't speak for everyone, but my objection to them is almost completely aesthetic. Having to deal with them disrupts the "groove" of the game in a way that no other weapon (or even vehicle) seems to for me."

...dude is speaking for me, as well. ;)

JaFO
14th Apr 2005, 06:11 PM
Discord']...
I'd agree with you if public ONS matches didn't tend to run into the 60 minutes plus range... you could cycle at least 3 maps in any other gametype in that time.
See ... that's what I don't hate.
I don't mind playing the same map for an hour or so, because I love (nearly) endless games.

On top of that is my feeling that it makes it easier to join a game in progress.
In any other gametype there's a good chance that you'll join the game a few minutes before it ends. It wouldn't be much of a problem if connecting to servers and changing maps didn't require so much time.

btw : if you hate long games now then I expect you to really dislike the conquest-gametype ...

Discord
14th Apr 2005, 06:54 PM
See ... that's what I don't hate.
I don't mind playing the same map for an hour or so, because I love (nearly) endless games.

On top of that is my feeling that it makes it easier to join a game in progress.
In any other gametype there's a good chance that you'll join the game a few minutes before it ends. It wouldn't be much of a problem if connecting to servers and changing maps didn't require so much time.

btw : if you hate long games now then I expect you to really dislike the conquest-gametype ...


Hehe, c'mon JaF. What I'm driving at here is that if you hop on a server for an hour and a half's worth of ONS-ThatMapYouLove, then you're in business. If you jump on a server for an hour and a half's worth of ONS-ThatMapThatGivesYouHives, you're probably going to do some serverhopping. I think that's true for most people... although since you can see it right there in the serverbrowser you probably don't have that happen too much :lol:. But you know what I mean.

On the other hand, if it's a server I like I'll probably be more willing to suffer through 15 minutes of CTF-SuckFest to get to 20 minutes of CTF-ThisMapPwnsJ00_SE, followed by 20 more minutes of CTF-FP-HeyYouKnowThisMapAin'tBadEither, and so on.

But anyhow, yeah, if it's a killer game (with no $%@!! spidermines in it, or at least not too many) then sign me up for all of that you've got. ;)

Israphel
14th Apr 2005, 07:00 PM
First off I have to state that it's pointless telling rhirud how to deal with spider mines as he is possibly one of the best ONS players on these forums.

I use spiders a lot, and I don't agree with you rhirud that they are there just for new players to get kills as in many ways they are one of the easiest weapons to counter. In the situation you're taking about on Severence, I personally take them out with tank shells or 'bender sky-mines.
Spiders are a brilliant strategic weapon (I even once took a low flying raptor out with one once by jumping and shooting it like a flak secondary :)), but can be irritating when people use them to camp (like dropping them all over the base in Arctic when the action is else where on the map. This is basically cheap kills and adds nothing strategic to the game..it's just ****ing annoying.

So, while I would love to see them stay in the next UT, I wouldn't mind them being nerfed a little without ruining how much fun they are to use. Perhaps having them do slightly less damage (30 or 40) so it takes three to kill someone, or limiting the amount that a player can drop (maybe 5). I also think Rhirud's idea of making them destroy the mines of other players (even on the same team) will stop spam over-load....

..but please keep them in because they are SO MUCH FUN

EDIT: Just to add my two-penneth in on Primeval. It's just a **** map..no more or less. It's a map where spiders just make it too spam-my, added to the fact that people just park the 'bender behind the tree and spam across the node with the sky mines constantly...AND the fact that on pubs people just ride the manta through the base spawnkilling...and it all adds up to a ****e map.

Primeval in clan matches or tournaments (like the recent Jolt 3v3 tourney) don't have spiders....and the map is better for it (but not much).

EDIT 2: @Tournament0. It says you've made 233 posts in this forum, and pretty much every one I've seen has been a pointless one-liner that says absolutely nothing.
To say "I don't think anyone will use spiders mines" is mind-numbing in its irrelevence. Please tell us, WHY do you not think no-one will use spiders. What made you arrive at this conclusion.
As it is, you posts are just spam.
Please try to give a little more depth to your statements otherwise people will just not bother reading anything you write.

Bot_40
14th Apr 2005, 07:15 PM
Just to clarify my point of view, I don't mind the idea of some sort of "mine" weapon which is actually genuinly used as a mine weapon. It's just the fact that while I am trying to destroy the mines of someone that's throwing them at me from 2000-3000 units away, someone else simply runs over me in a manta cuz I'm too busy killing the mines. It's damn frustrating because it has absolutely nothing to do with skill. As far as I'm concerned may as well just code something into the game which kills a random player every 20 seconds :con:

T2A`
14th Apr 2005, 07:27 PM
EDIT 2: @Tournament0. It says you've made 233 posts in this forum, and pretty much every one I've seen has been a pointless one-liner that says absolutely nothing.
To say "I don't think anyone will use spiders mines" is mind-numbing in its irrelevence. Please tell us, WHY do you not think no-one will use spiders. What made you arrive at this conclusion.
As it is, you posts are just spam.
Please try to give a little more depth to your statements otherwise people will just not bother reading anything you write.Maybe he's actually that UNR3AL guy that spammed 140 posts with no point whatsoever in one day and got banned. :p

I don't mind the mines, but they can be annoying. I think limiting them to four per player will help ease up on the spam and make it more like AS-Junkyard where you only get four mines from the weapon lockers.

Dodge-launching them should probably be disabled too. It works for things like the ass. rifle grenades, but being able to fling mines so far makes them too easy to use offensively against infantry.

Bot_40
14th Apr 2005, 07:38 PM
Well limiting it to 4 mines at a time wouldn't make much difference imo since if you are spamming mines at someone, you can still throw mines out as fast as, if not faster than they can destroy them. A much lower ammo limit imo would be better. I'm talking about a max limit of 8 mines and maybe get 4 mines when you pick up the launcher, then you actually have to use them for what you are supposed to instead of just spamming them at other players.

JaFO
14th Apr 2005, 08:27 PM
Having 'friendly' spiders kill each other has got to be the worst idea ever.
It's like a big sign to all *beeps* out there that like to ruin the game.

// [Apoc]Discord
I guess I'm an exception, because there's not a single map I really hate.
It all really depends on the kind of players that are active.

There are *beeps* out there that can ruin a perfectly good map either by being damned annoying or abusing the countless minor bugs/undocumented features that are present either in the game or the (official) maps themselves.

That's one of the reasons why I consider modifying basic game-mechanics (like weapons) to be the last possible option if and only if everything else has failed.

carmatic
14th Apr 2005, 10:38 PM
Discord']spiders can't travel more than, say, 500 uu from a flag, node or other objective owned by their team and have no other restrictions. I like this one the best, it allows them to be used as a strong defense but not for annoying spam purposes (kinda like real mines, no?). Mines laid outside the "fence" would head for the nearest authorized area without attacking anybody.


what if, spidermines are changed so that they actually follow botpaths, and can use elevators, teleports, etc etc just like bots ... maybe they can behave like seek-and-destroy units or something... lay down a mine, and if a friendly player comes close enough to it, it changes mode to seek and destroy and begins following botpaths... so mines are better stacked in places where your teammates dont usually tread, and further helps alleviate the spamminess of this weapon...
and, if players can be warned of nearby spidermines like they can hear someone with a charged shieldgun , or like they can hear the smileymines from chaosut2, or if they can somehow be warned like a vehicle thats been locked on by an avril... that should ease the spam-shock factor of the mines in game...

overkill63
14th Apr 2005, 11:06 PM
what are you guys kidding me? spidermines are great!they offer all kinds of tactics to gameplay.somtimes if you end up playing with a bunch of losers they can help equalize gameplay.i love loading a manta with spidermines let it fly into a node and following with a rocket launcher to clean up. ive took over nodes single handed that way.hell you can even attatch sticky grenades to spidermines for even more explosive mayhem.
and as we all know they work good for traps.as for getting rid of pesky spider mines ,the rocket launcher and flack cannon work good. you can also use your vehicle as a shield or distraction for the spider mines as they attack them to another of my favorite tactics is to cover a buddy with sticky mines let him run to a node and set him off while hes fighting the enemy boom the node is mine "ala terrorist act" .the fun never stops if you use your head. if worse comes to worse and you fear spider mines just send a "buddy" in as point man to take the hit then the rest of your crew run in and desimate the area.

CountBloody
15th Apr 2005, 08:35 AM
if worse comes to worse and you fear spider mines just send a "buddy" in as point man to take the hit then the rest of your crew run in and desimate the area.

I've been that player, & even used my own spidermines to take out the grunts(ground troops). Man does that mess with thier minds at times :lol:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can see where alot of you are comming from. And you all make good points too.

I like the idea of 3 spidermines fragging a player, that way you(or any player) have more time to react. But keep the ammo at 12-14 and have the limit to 6 mines to lay, that way a player(s) can only frag two players or 6(mines) to destroy one vehicle at any time(only), then have to lay some more.

Maybe have some more newer maps for UT3(or what ever the name will be) be more open(not like Primeval). Plus make the colour(s) of the spidermines brighter, so that way players can see them farther way too.

Finaly, we all can say good & bad things about each weapon, ie the shock alt fire being to spammy...etc. Meaning that all the weapons can be used for spamming(some shape or form) or the way that Epic thought that they should have been used for.

Bot_40
15th Apr 2005, 09:42 AM
yeah, I also forgot to mention they don't show up enough, especially the red ones if you are partially red green colourblind (I am, and apparently something like 1/10 males are).

btw sorry about semi-flaming rant type post from last night, I was rather drunk :p

Tournament0
15th Apr 2005, 12:21 PM
I think they should include it, but don't make it powerful.
I don't think colour will be an issue.

iron12
15th Apr 2005, 12:54 PM
Some of the problem is the number of players on maps.

I notice that on pub games they rotate maps with very different player counts.

Some maps seems just fine and not to spammy with 4 vs 4, but 8 vs 8 and look out too much spam.

I wish they would hold the player count more to what the map designer recommended.

1337
15th Apr 2005, 05:26 PM
I think they should put more effort into making spidermines a trap weapon. Decrease rate of fire decrease max spider mine deployed at once and decrease max spidermine ammo. Make them more camoflauge. Have them cling onto any suface. When they are triggered they should do a cool animation like flash a light or something and stop being camoflauge but make them bigger and more menacing. Make them have more hitpoints. So it would take a good flak shot or something to take it out. Whatever happens make them less effective in head to head combat. And keep them out of DM gametype maps that you want people to take seriously.

Bot_40
15th Apr 2005, 05:47 PM
hmm, been thinking some more. I think most the problems would be solved simply by having a sort of "deploy time". For example, you shoot a mine, but it takes 10-15 seconds before it can actually move around and kill people. That way it is still just as usfull as a defensive weapon like it's supposed to be, and you can no longer use it to spam across the map at someone.

1337
15th Apr 2005, 05:58 PM
hmm, been thinking some more. I think most the problems would be solved simply by having a sort of "deploy time". For example, you shoot a mine, but it takes 10-15 seconds before it can actually move around and kill people. That way it is still just as usfull as a defensive weapon like it's supposed to be, and you can no longer use it to spam across the map at someone.
That would be a great way to get rid of the spam them in their general direction and get a frag because I don't want to aim theme of spidermines.

Discord
15th Apr 2005, 10:56 PM
hmm, been thinking some more. I think most the problems would be solved simply by having a sort of "deploy time". For example, you shoot a mine, but it takes 10-15 seconds before it can actually move around and kill people. That way it is still just as usfull as a defensive weapon like it's supposed to be, and you can no longer use it to spam across the map at someone.

Best idea yet. :tup:

:clap:

elminsterchu
16th Apr 2005, 02:56 AM
yes,that's a good idea.but i think the mines should get another property that after they have been launched they can be demi-invisible or have same color as the environment to make them hard to detected

FireCrack
16th Apr 2005, 03:18 AM
2 words.

Head Drill

Discord
16th Apr 2005, 03:19 AM
2 words.

Head Drill

2 more words:

Crown Royal. :p

Enji
17th Apr 2005, 12:52 AM
I actually like the spidermines, I just wish they'd stay after I get killed though. and a timed deployment would be a great idea. But rather than spidermines I would prefer something more like proximity mines like from the old Goldeneye game.

CountBloody
17th Apr 2005, 06:56 AM
I think the Spidermines sticking to walls & ceilings would be cool, & also I like the deploy time idea too. But maybe Epic could make the deploy time as a mutator. So that players that like the spidermines as is, can play that way(with mutator off) & other servers can use the deploy time mutator. Just a thought.


Plus I tought of another idea(maybe players may like). Is that when a player uses the Avril, they can not only lock on to just Vehicles. They also can lock on to spidermines, & whwn a player clicks the Avril's alt-fire(to me the Avril's alt-fire was somewhat abit hard to use). The Avril fires a rocket & when it's over head of the spidermines it blows up an take out 4 spidermines. Even if the mines are from the same player or not, & also about 10-12 feet in front of a player.

The Arvil's ammo limit can also be higher, say 20-26.

Majik
17th Apr 2005, 08:57 AM
That would possibly act as a huge distraction when you're trying to target a fast-moving vehicle close to the mines, especially if there's many of them.

iron12
17th Apr 2005, 09:04 AM
And sticky mines should stick to what ever it hits.

carmatic
17th Apr 2005, 10:29 AM
Plus I tought of another idea(maybe players may like). Is that when a player uses the Avril, they can not only lock on to just Vehicles. They also can lock on to spidermines, & whwn a player clicks the Avril's alt-fire(to me the Avril's alt-fire was somewhat abit hard to use). The Avril fires a rocket & when it's over head of the spidermines it blows up an take out 4 spidermines. Even if the mines are from the same player or not, & also about 10-12 feet in front of a player.



yeah i with that theyd fix the avril alt fire...it behaves like a built in aimbot attached to a hitscan weapon and is utterly useless in laggy situations... like how difficult can putting something in to the effect of 'as long as i hold down alt fire and as long as i have a line of sight, continue homing the rocket'

anyway, i wish that avrils see players spidermines like they see the spma's eye thing... like, you lock onto a spidermine from a distance , and the avril rocket starts going towards it, and all the time its scanning for the originator of the spidermines, maybe like the spidermines are under remote control from the mine launcher (or canister gun), and once it has a direct line of sight to the source of the radio control of the spidermines, it would start homing into it... so maybe if you drop the gun then you'll be safe (and all your mines will auto destruct now that they dont have an owner), but as long as someone has their avril alt-fired onto one of your mines , then there will be an avril rocket on its way towards your mine launcher...

imagine, you see someone spamming mines all over the place, hes running around popping mines at you and your teammates... step back, whip out the avril, lock onto one of his mines, and smack him down with avrils for as long as he's within sight of one of his mines... or something

CountBloody
17th Apr 2005, 03:42 PM
That would possibly act as a huge distraction when you're trying to target a fast-moving vehicle close to the mines, especially if there's many of them.

The two lock ons can be different colours. For vehicles the lock on(crosshire) is like how it is now, a green lock on(crosshire). But for spidermines it changes say to a yellow lock on(crosshire). That way players can deside if they want to take out the vehicle or the mines.

Arsenalvendetta
18th Apr 2005, 08:09 AM
what are you guys kidding me? spidermines are great!they offer all kinds of tactics to gameplay.

I agree with Overkill. Provided you leave them at a power node, you have some form of reliable security that no one will take down that power node at close range. Sure, there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think it was an excellent move by Epic by introducing explosive spidermines. Hey, at least its better then them spiders in Unreal 2. You should read my "Envy from a NewbiE" thread about stocking them up in a vehicle.

rhirud
22nd Apr 2005, 05:54 AM
Thanks for the compliment israphael.

As I said - i do loathe spidermines - but don't think they should be removed.

I don't use them much because I play a very aggressive game (usually) of onslaught - so I tend to die before the mines could be put to any use.

I've got no objection to taking on 1-2 players with spiders. That's all good fun. But taking on 4 opponents with spiders is very difficult.

As is said, if you have experienced teammates, they will take out the spiders with tank shells\hellbender (the cicada also clears spiders in no time at all.)

Timed deployment though - that is a great idea- when you are deploying spiders - you make yourself vulnerable for 10-15 seconds - so then they can only be really used from a distance (so fairly easy to counter) - or as propper defence- (I do sometimes use them when in a turret, putting them in the turret's blind spots - e.g. behind the back wall of the first node in dria - if I choose to defend rather than attack.

edhe
22nd Apr 2005, 08:13 AM
Having weapons that people Love&hate at the same time is a good ingredient :)

carmatic
22nd Apr 2005, 06:31 PM
yeah, good ingredient for flamewars, especially when its been designed so that only half of the community can enjoy using it

i love using spiders, but i hate it when people use it on me, which makes me hate using it on other people too , because then i have a reason to be drawn into flamewars etc etc etc which i dont want....
putting a deploy time on the spiders i think is a good idea, it stops them from giving you (and your enemies) easy frags , and it forces it to be defensive (and a real laugh when someone actually gets killed by one) , and by forcing it to be defensive it changes from a spammy weapon to a defensive weapon... like how the engineer turrets in team fortress gets used

shadow_dragon
22nd Apr 2005, 09:38 PM
I liek teh sound of the "deploy time" feature.

I'd also liekto see the spidermines deployable on walls and cielings anbe able to crawl on them, not noly that but i'd like to see them dodge and pounce. Nothing more terrifying than jumping spiders. Iwant them to be easy to see so you can shot at them but capable of avoiding getting shot to make it fair. i also want them to be hard to see before you get to them.
Maybe the "deploy time" could be them burying themselves in the surface they were laid? The only part visible is that little antenae with the light on.