Mechs?

[Bang Yr Head]

I was thinking, there is going to be a total of 18 vehicles, 9 Axon and 9 Necris. And out of all of those, there is bound to be some new incarnations... maybe mechs? I think it would be a welcome addition. and could potentially offer up some fun moments. discuss..

[Tournament0]

My guess is that they will probably add new characters, or it might get boring. :hmm:
I don't understand why they have taken out lots of characters, they would have looked good on the Unreal Engine 3.
They will probably add new characters, or release it in some other form.

[edhe]

Copyright? :)

[Bang Yr Head]

My guess is that they will probably add new characters, or it might get boring. :hmm:
I don't understand why they have taken out lots of characters, they would have looked good on the Unreal Engine 3.
They will probably add new characters, or release it in some other form.

????

this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. :con:

and how could they be copywrited? they are in tons of games.

*sigh*

[Selerox]

Copyright? :)

Well, the term "mech" might be a BattleTech thing, but the concept of bipedal tanks (with/without arms) isn't really a new or unusual thing. BattleTech has them, Star Wars has them (ATST), WH40K has dreadnoughts and also had mech-style combat robots back in the day (you could even stretch it to Titans as well), and there are loads of other examples.

As for UT200x mechs, I remember the Systemic mod which was pretty fun, but the mechs were slow as hell (balancing thing, because it was them vs players on foot). I think there was a mod Shai'tan worked on that had mechs, but I dunno what happened to that.

Having mechs would be very fun, but they'd need to be balanced against infantry and vehicles, which would take some work. You can't make them too slow or they'd be cannon fodder and you can't make them too nimble or they'd be too powerful (and a bigtime infantry stomper). Same goes for firepower, go for anti-infantry or anti-vehicle or both? You could have both (using primary and secondary fire maybe) but that might make it too powerful again.

[Olga]

How about making mech suits that have dual miniguns but are light enough to move around a little slower than infantry? It could also be very open and unshielded so that the pilot could be easily enough be killed and it could also be susceptible to being run over by a manta.

[The_Head]

I would love to see Mechs in this game. Especially if they looked half as cool as the Mechs in the Matrix *drools*
Balancing them ingame would be tricky though. You could perhaps give them limited Ammo unlike normal vehicles but no ammo pickups so you could only use them for a certain period of time. Or give them a short 'battery' life and have to recharge them with Linkgun maybe?
Or perhaps just keep them seperate from other vehicles like with the space fighters in AS-Mothership

[JonAzz]

they need he mechs from matrix, those would be soooooooooo cool! and to think those arent that powerful, they're slow and the cockpit is open. but the firepower on em is awsome! :D

[1337]

I hope they can make them all have really unique firing mechanisms like the ECE vehicles. It makes the game that much more entertaining.

[shadow_dragon]

Mechs are hard because mostly you need variety to balance them. Heavy/slow mechs, light/weak mechs, medium/average hitting mechs, etc.
However the environment of UT already has a bunch of balanced vehicles so how can a mech fit in. If it's fast + powerfull it'll have all the advantages of your normal fps mode but with more shield. If it's slow + powerful it'll be like playing a slow human that has powerfull weapons but can't even keep up with tanks? So it'd be useless.

I'd say go with the powerfull hard hitting frame, immensely slow movement but can be transported by the other vehicles. Say the Orca or a bomber ship that can airlift it and drop it into a battle zone. The drop and pickup procedure would ofcourse make both vehicles vulnerable to balance the added mobility of the heavy hitting mech and while it's carrying the mech the ship flies slower + not as high. This way the mech is never likely to be the first one in a battle zone but niether will it take him days to get anywhere.

I'm not sure but that's the first concept for a mech that i could see working well + being balanced? Could be wrong though, wild speculation is never reliable after all.

[Bang Yr Head]

Mechs are hard because mostly you need variety to balance them. Heavy/slow mechs, light/weak mechs, medium/average hitting mechs, etc.
However the environment of UT already has a bunch of balanced vehicles so how can a mech fit in. If it's fast + powerfull it'll have all the advantages of your normal fps mode but with more shield. If it's slow + powerful it'll be like playing a slow human that has powerfull weapons but can't even keep up with tanks? So it'd be useless.

I'd say go with the powerfull hard hitting frame, immensely slow movement but can be transported by the other vehicles. Say the Orca or a bomber ship that can airlift it and drop it into a battle zone. The drop and pickup procedure would ofcourse make both vehicles vulnerable to balance the added mobility of the heavy hitting mech and while it's carrying the mech the ship flies slower + not as high. This way the mech is never likely to be the first one in a battle zone but niether will it take him days to get anywhere.

I'm not sure but that's the first concept for a mech that i could see working well + being balanced? Could be wrong though, wild speculation is never reliable after all.

I actually really like this idea. It would be either good for defense, or as you said, drop this bad boy in the middle of a huge fire-fight and let it goto town.

[T2A`]

UT3: MechWarrior

:rolleyes:

[FireCrack]

A goiod mech would be hell on the netcode.

[iron12]

What next transformers. :eek2:

[NiteX]

Mechs in UT is a bad idea. They wouldn't really fit in ONS or CON at all. Unless there is a MechWarrior map.

[Enji]

well maybe if they ere like Walkers from Star Wars (the biped model), it was reasonable quick, could fire a powerful beam, but not automatic pace, and you could give it the hp of a Manta so its not worthless, yet doesn't pwn everything on the map. Or even perhaps it would be more of an antivehicle weapon and not so effective against infantry.

[Mr.Magnetichead]

What next transformers. :eek2:

There is already a Transformers mod for ut2004....

[The_Head]

well maybe if they ere like Walkers from Star Wars (the biped model), it was reasonable quick, could fire a powerful beam, but not automatic pace, and you could give it the hp of a Manta so its not worthless, yet doesn't pwn everything on the map. Or even perhaps it would be more of an antivehicle weapon and not so effective against infantry.

Sounds good.

I still reckon something similar looks and size to the Mechs on the Matrix. But will lasers like the turrets. Around about 400 life. Then you have a good anti vehicle vehicle to compete with Hellbenders and Scorpions.
Personally If its not possible to balance alongside other vehicles replace the other vehicles. A Mech is far cooler than a damn scorpion.....

[carmatic]

hm i thought that the ons turrents looked abit like mechs... maybe if you gave them proper legs and they'd start walking around, it'd be perfect

but , like, on infantry, they are small and their animations dont matter... and on vehicles, they are simple to model using physics code... but for mechs, youd be seeing their feet clip through terrain most of the time, or hanging in mid air.... i hope the physics is up for this, not just for calculating dead ragdolls, but a fully living player controlled one...

[Enji]

I would still think mechs would be better suited as an antivehiclar weapon especially the Goliath and the Leviathan, because its just so hard to take out those two with just Avrails or Raptors

[Ignotium]

it depends

if they remotelly include them, they would be even more exclusive than the AS ships or the Leviathan, you CAN'T make them as agile as a player, no way; however it would be cool to see something bout'em
Still i think the more Mechy-style we'll get is defense turrets;; perhaps moving defense turrets? :o

[Vailias]

Starsiege: 2845 (http://www.starsiege2845.com)
Its not UT but Its got what you guys are mentioning. Alpha release should be out in the next month or so.

[carmatic]

yeah i think that if mechs should exist, let them fill in a niche that exists ...

[JaFO]

If mechs are coming to UT then I want to be able to shoot their legs of so they can fall over ...
Without such a feature it'd be just a big humanoid form that's far too easy to hit.

[Vedanth Salian]

My guess is that they will probably add new characters, or it might get boring. :hmm:
I don't understand why they have taken out lots of characters, they would have looked good on the Unreal Engine 3.
They will probably add new characters, or release it in some other form.

Modelling tons of characters in UE3 is not a joke. It takes a lot of time.

[Olga]

They should make a Necris vehicle that looks like a spider.

[Salvatore]

I want my Metal Gear!

[The_Head]

^ me2

Or maybe something off of Zone of the Enders

[Salvatore]

Hell yeah!

...Vector cannon whore.

[Enji]

I liked the Halberd more and Orbital Frames would be way too powerful on the battlefield, they're too fast, agile, and just flat out powerful. It's like whoever gets it just pwns the map. for a game like UT, you're goint to want a mech that goes between walking speed and manta speed, and something with an open cockpit maybe like a walking turret.
Speaking of which, it would be really cool to have a quadraped model with two turrets on it for a teammate to hop in and join you in your onslaught ^_^

[Salvatore]

Pff, my friend managed to nail Anubis with the Vector in the first battle with him in ZOE2.

[The_Head]

How the hell did he do that????
I could hardly touch him......

A bit 4 legged one would be sweet for a couple of ppl to hop into :D

[Ignotium]

If mechs are coming to UT then I want to be able to shoot their legs of so they can fall over ...
Without such a feature it'd be just a big humanoid form that's far too easy to hit.

couldn't have said it better

[Unreality]

^ i can already see a mech breaking legs and tumbling over :P this would be a good idea to give players on foot a chance

[Salvatore]

I think he was Naked Jehuty, so obviously Anubis' attacks wouldn't scratch him. He just flew into a corner, initiated that awesome start-up sequence, and blasted seven shades of ownage out of him. He actually defeated Anubis in the first fight :lol:

Pity the cut-scene was the same.

[Ignotium]

with "Mechs" comes the Amaiaiaiaiaiazing EMP gun?

[The_Head]

I think he was Naked Jehuty,
Never even seen him/her/it, got bored of ZOEII half way through. Was too similar to the first one.

Back OT
Weak points such as the legs would be the best way to make it fair. Perhaps not the whole leg though, just the knee and other joints......
-lol just as they get rid of the Scorpions Webfire for Envy comes in mechs, where the scorpions weapon would have been cool!

[Black_Seeds]

If mechs are coming to UT then I want to be able to shoot their legs of so they can fall over ...
Without such a feature it'd be just a big humanoid form that's far too easy to hit.

^That is the only reason i would like mechs to be in the game :)

But mechs are in loads of games, i would like Epic to come up with truly unique vehicles etc.

[The_Head]

Indeed.......

Tanks are cool.....

any suggestions for something that isnt basicly a Mech, car, plane or a Tank?

[Black_Seeds]

a mule with dual lasers on top :D

[Bang Yr Head]

But mechs are in loads of games, i would like Epic to come up with truly unique vehicles etc.

true that. maybe some kind of mobile ammo/health depot? but in the form of a huge spider-like tank (legs instead of treads).

[gregori]

mech could'nt really hurt the series might even bridge the gap between vehicles and walking on foot, they be better than turrets but not as fast as vehicles therefore more tactical, howbout even some mounted or flyng creatures or some crazy suicide stunt bike faster than all other vehicles kamakaze thingies, basically it wouls suck if all the vehicles are going to be basically realworld warsim thingies, that's unimaginative and boring. it's not called ]real tournament[/B], it called unreal tournament after all

[]SideWinder[]

Mechs, yeah I can see that, but they would be like walking ONS Lazar turrets if you ask me. Thats what I would want, and they would only show up on that new game type, code named "Conquest" or whatever. Seeing as how the maps would be soooo big, its bound to have lots of vehicles. I think in order to balance these Mechs out, they should be vary easy to take down with a tank. By take down I mean, knock over. If a Mech would get shot by a tank round, it should fly back and hit the ground. It should get up faster then a tank can fire though, so you cant just pound one in to the ground with just one tank. But they should have enough armor to take a **** load of tank hits. As far as mobility, it should walk rather slow, maybe slightly slower then a tank. But It should also have jump jets, that can aid in movement. The jump jets would allow you to glide across the ground at a fast pace for a short distance. Then you would have a small amount of tricks you can do with it, like Jump Jet boosted jumps, helping them get up and over things and help them travel faster.

[gregori]

exactly, camping in a static turret isn't all that fun.

[]SideWinder[]

yeah I totaly agree. I never really jumped in a turret for all that long, I'ed much rather drive around, and run people over.

[The_Head]

SideWinder[']But It should also have jump jets, that can aid in movement. The jump jets would allow you to glide across the ground at a fast pace for a short distance. Then you would have a small amount of tricks you can do with it, like Jump Jet boosted jumps, helping them get up and over things and help them travel faster.

This could be neet. Just so you can jump forwards every now and then, bit like doing a dodge jump on foot.
Not sure about the idea of tricks in one though :s thats what a shiled gun is for :p

[gregori]

yeah but it would own in a mech, robot thingy, turrets are a bit boring, also the scale a mech could do trick jumps on and that of a sheild gun are way different, people are smaller than mechs!

[Dark Pulse]

a mule with dual lasers on top :D
Ridable Nali Warcows! \o/

[The_Head]

Ridable Nali Warcows! \o/
^^ YEH! :lol:

Bring back the Nali Warcow!

[gregori]

yeah it least that would be UNREAL, not realwarfare sim 101, it's a sci fi fantasy universe for godsake, anybody see the flying beasts in the U engine 3.0 video, something like that would own

[carmatic]

if they can bring the programming to be as advanced as to model legs as accurately as a vehicles suspension, then i'd really really really be impressed... after all, if a vehicle can walk, it has an advantage in terms of the variety of terrain that it can cover, but it wont be as fast as wheels or treads... so, theyre really better off as semi-mobile turrets, with walking speeds of somewhere near that of a paladin (a player can run as fast as a paladin) , and their size or extra legs should help them navigate terrain thats impossible for people on foot , and they can pick advantageous camper-like positions to defend places that otherwise will be defended by turrets etc...

[gregori]

thats true except a mech would have a larger gait than a human because of it leg size so it would be a tiny bit faster, the programming for such things is alot simpler than you think, it's just a extention of inverse kinematic skeletal animations ,the physics are well possible in UE3, in fact such adjustments of a characters body to his terrain have been done before mainly on humans. most of is just about how animations look, the physics are not too complex.

[carmatic]

eh, in inverse kinematics its simply a fixed position of a point that the computer has to figure out how to reach... plus, i do read somewhere before thats its also quite cpu expensive but maybe thats back in the days of pentium 2's and stuff... the main problem is, like, if youve played half life 2, you can see alyx's legs snap all over uneven surfaces... the same goes for the striders, in fact the striders legs can change length to fit the terrain theyre stepping on , its very subtle but if you purposely spawn a strider next to a cliff you'll see what i mean...

its not just asking the computer 'what positions should these different joined pieces be in so that they join these 2 points' , it has to take account on how they will move so that they do not collide with anything, and that they will end up in the final position, etc etc etc... its abit like the comparison between collision detection and ragdoll physics...

in terms of timeframe and experience:
collision detection = VRML back in the pentium mmx days
ragdoll physics = unreal tournament 2003

in terms of how i think it works:
simple inverse kinematics = static and you simply define a very specific situation for the computer to work out the solution for, and time does not flow
modelling legs = dynamic, you may not reach the solution so you have to find ways of getting to the solution (like figuring out where to put the robot's foot without making it topple over), and for every timeframe that the computer is calculating , it has to take account of the speed , acceleration, etc etc of the moving parts, in addition to their position, as time flows

[gregori]

it uneccisary to use the real physics of legs, the human characters in ut don't it just an animation, you just have to fake them and make the animations of the legs look okay. if you went on that complex way of calculation it be impossble to do vehicles in ut, there just a simplified version of vehicle physics but they appear correct,the robot would never be designed to topple over from it's own walking that would be stupid however you can mainpulate physics software to allow people to topple it over by shooting it/crashing into it. yeah inverse kinematics, you tell the leg where to move and computer figures out how the bones should respond/extend that can be done with time flowing, dynamically, look at the physics demonstration on the UE3 video, where stress is put on a corpses bones and the joints tear dynamically as they reach their breaking point, it's all possible, it's not about whether it really works like a mech there no real world mech to compare them by, it's all about how it looks

[carmatic]

well possibly the demonstration of that ripping corpse shows that complicated physics are possible... but if the physics is purely based on how it looks, then your probably gonna run into problems involving the looks sooner or later... like, lets say that the feet are only modelled via inverse kinematics on each solid step, then in between steps they will clip through anything , in the worst case scenario...

[gregori]

make the physics simple make them work don't brealk the gameplay this way, the visuals of it can be messed around with later on you can use various hacks and tricks to get that looking but once the principle works.....

[Bullet10k]

How about mechs ABOUT HALF THE SIZE OR LESS of the regular mechs such as the matrix one and the one in mechwarrior. I think Mechs are a good idea AS LONG AS THEY ARE BALANCED...just like how the levi is. Make them about as high as a node or summin maybe.

Dont forget this word: BALANCE!

[gregori]

too much balance can suck, doing the mech like the matrix ones would be cool, though they might have to be enclosed, mechs are slower than vehicles, you would be very prone to sniping__ even include the thingy where they twirl the gun.once they don't give them some combination of a minigun, rocket launcher or plasma deally like they did with every single vehicle in 2k4, jesus think up some new UNREAL weapons, crazy ****, a black hole cannon, or wepons thyat cause localised earthquakes, a tractor beam for f#cking up vehicles and troops, flametrower?, laserbeam that turns thing chars.some cool sh't!

[shadow_dragon]

There is no such thing as too much balance!

I think I like SIdeWinders idea, that they're basically Mobile turrets like the ones from UT, and give them a melee mode aswell for beating on enemy vehicles/tanks mostly. Maybe give them a radius of the node they were originally based at so they can't travel too far. (THough i'd still like to dropship them in. :))

Also loving the ridable Nali Warcow. Kinda. It'd be good to see Creature/Monster vehicles. From what i've seen there are kind of team specific Vehicles in the next UT. (Though that is personal speculation) I'd like to see some flappy winged dragon/monsters with guys on top going toe to toe with Raptors and Cicadas. :) Greta big Spikey Rhino things with gun placements on top beating on hellbenders. Or.... Oliphaunts? heh heh!

[gregori]

of course theirs too much balance it grinds a game to halt much like WW1 stuck in the trenches and the likes, it takes out any fun or unpredicatability, makes a game too slow,
in ut99 the weapons are balanced in a fun way in that no wepons is useless everyone has a range of specific uses unlike in ut2kx where your completely screwed with an assaultrife
biorifle and so on.

[innociv]

CliffyB love's mech's so who knows?

[gregori]

who said that anyway mechs would diversify the game making for interesting gameplay, once it doesn't become mech warrior ie solely focused on mechs i'm happy, though some large creatures would be coo tool ,magine a bunch of krall shooting from turret on a titan's back--- that would rock

[The_Head]

Me still thinks bring in the Mech off of the Matrix. Keep it so there is an exposed cockpit, speed about the same as a normal person, around 500 - 600 life. And to make up for its ease to hit give it the twin miniguns off of the film. This would cheer up all the people complaining about the minigun going. Also being weak to long distance shots will help balance it

[gregori]

minigun is the least imaginative wepon you could possibly have on a mech
have something unreal and not a tarydium dealy either though i do welcome that paticular weapon returning for player characters, ever see the mech from gunman chronicles?

tou would have to obscure the cockpit partially though their doing that for even the scorpion and thats way faster, you would end up being sniper fodder, might be unfair if it was totally enclosed though, wathever you do make them spin the guns, thats would own

[AVP]

mechs...... *drools