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View Full Version : Weapons in Game Modes idea.


NiteX
12th Apr 2005, 11:35 AM
I was thinking about what would make each Game Mode a little different and more fun in there own. How about changing up the weapons a bit so they all would fit perfectly in their own mode. In UT2004 pretty much all of the same weapons that were in DM and CTF were thrown in ONS. A lot of the time they felt like they didn't belong in the ONS game mode. I will show an example of a weapons list that I think would fit good into the game modes. If you want you can make a list as well. Or just agree or disagree with my opinions. (I will only add weapons that have existed in the Unreal series, if you want you can make up completely new weapons, but try to keep them Unrealish.)

DM, CTF
* Chainsaw (from UT99)
* Rocket Launcher (just like the UT99)
* Ripper
* Flak Cannon
* Pulse Gun (more like the UT99 weapon, faster primary fire but not as strong as in UT2k4)
* Shock Rifle
* Translocator
* Sniper Rifle
* Dual Enforcers (Returns from the original Unreal Tournament)
* Tridium Stinger (Returns from the original Unreal)
* Bio Rifle

ONS, CON

* Rocket Launcher
* Redeemer
* Ion Painter
* Flak Cannon
* Link Gun (same as UT2k4)
* Shock Rifle
* AVRiL (Unreal 2 secondary function, shoots 4 small rockets)
* Sniper Rifle
* Assault Rifle (not like in UT2k3/2k4 more like the Unreal Gold/Unreal 2 one)(Secondary mode could shoot an exploding 3 sec. timed spear that you could shoot in a vehicle tire blowing out the tire)
* Minigun (more like UT99 gun,faster shot secondary)
* Canister (New, houses a Grenade Launcher and Mine Layer)

O.S.T
12th Apr 2005, 01:37 PM
your suggestion is basecally the UT04 weapon placement :p
nearly like the common weapon list of each map

though I like your idea DM with dual enforcers and ONS with assault rifles


* Pulse Gun (more like the UT99 weapon, faster primary fire but not as strong as in UT2k4)
[...]
* Minigun (more like UT99 gun,faster shot secondary)

could get too spammy :hmm:
to make the pulse gun weaker is good, but increase the primary fire speed will steady the position of the pulse gun as spam-weapon number 1

Bot_40
12th Apr 2005, 05:55 PM
yeah, apart from minor things you can do that just by changing the weapon placement in maps.

carmatic
12th Apr 2005, 06:28 PM
just like what they kind of tried to do with the classic sniper rifle in assault ... isnt what your saying like, what they tried to do in 2k4 by putting the different weapons under different classes and stuff? like some weapons are onslaught, the classic sniper rifle is utclassic, the rest are just xweapons... but people put onslaught guns in assault etc anyway...

i think that selecting different weapons for different gametypes is as subtle as the balancing between the weapons...

Death Cube K
12th Apr 2005, 07:17 PM
DM, CTF
* Chainsaw (from UT99)


I disagree with this vehemently, CTF NEEDS something like the impact hammer. Especially for games without the tranny. DM too, but to a lesser extent.

iron12
12th Apr 2005, 07:20 PM
I was thinking about what would make each Game Mode a little different and more fun in there own. How about changing up the weapons a bit so they all would fit perfectly in their own mode. In UT2004 pretty much all of the same weapons that were in DM and CTF were thrown in ONS. A lot of the time they felt like they didn't belong in the ONS game mode. I will show an example of a weapons list that I think would fit good into the game modes. If you want you can make a list as well. Or just agree or disagree with my opinions. (I will only add weapons that have existed in the Unreal series, if you want you can make up completely new weapons, but try to keep them Unrealish.)

DM, CTF
* Chainsaw (from UT99)
* Rocket Launcher (just like the UT99)
* Ripper
* Flak Cannon
* Pulse Gun (more like the UT99 weapon, faster primary fire but not as strong as in UT2k4)
* Shock Rifle
* Translocator
* Sniper Rifle
* Dual Enforcers (Returns from the original Unreal Tournament)
* Tridium Stinger (Returns from the original Unreal)
* Bio Rifle

ONS, CON

* Rocket Launcher
* Redeemer
* Ion Painter
* Flak Cannon
* Link Gun (same as UT2k4)
* Shock Rifle
* AVRiL (Unreal 2 secondary function, shoots 4 small rockets)
* Sniper Rifle
* Assault Rifle (not like in UT2k3/2k4 more like the Unreal Gold/Unreal 2 one)(Secondary mode could shoot an exploding 3 sec. timed spear that you could shoot in a vehicle tire blowing out the tire)
* Minigun (more like UT99 gun,faster shot secondary)
* Canister (New, houses a Grenade Launcher and Mine Layer)

I Like. :)

carmatic
12th Apr 2005, 07:43 PM
speaking of unreal 2 guns... which of the ones did you like? theres that borg-like one which shot something that looked like a 'slow' version of the link gun secondary... then theres that spidermine-googun combo which shot living spiders that came out of sacs...
and there's Legend Entertainment's take on the shock rifle, useful for disabling (stationary) vehicles, thats just about it...
theres actually a keybind in unreal 2 which let you view from the perspective of one of the secondary fire rockets, that was really cool... you can see them wobble about as they homed in on a target , and see if you actually hit or not... or you can fire the rockets randomly and see what the skybox looks like or something

Discord
12th Apr 2005, 08:20 PM
I was thinking about what would make each Game Mode a little different and more fun in there own. How about changing up the weapons a bit so they all would fit perfectly in their own mode.


This is so totally what I've been on about lately. Nuts and bolts are debatable, but I think "optimizing" each gamemode is just exactly where it's at.

Some will say this could further "divide the community." I think that's negligible, but just for the sake of argument... what if each gamemode was as roughly equivalent to the next as is the case today, BUT there was an official mutator for each that produced the optimized ruleset? Beginners could learn the ropes on the stock rules, then specialize into the advanced rules when they found a game that grabbed them... hell, worked great for both D&D and Squad Leader...


Meh. Srry for rant.

Tournament0
13th Apr 2005, 04:05 AM
your suggestion is basecally the UT04 weapon placement :p
nearly like the common weapon list of each map

though I like your idea DM with dual enforcers and ONS with assault rifles


could get too spammy :hmm:

Obviously.
:nag:

edhe
13th Apr 2005, 04:28 AM
Again, if you mess with weapon balances between mods it'll mess with players.

Having alternate weapons for alternate modes seems like an idea but then how could you apply your skills from DM into any other mod? Or is that the idea? :)

Having other weapon options for other mods is a valid point, but changing weapon parameters between modes is fantasy.

O.S.T
13th Apr 2005, 12:16 PM
Obviously.
:nag:
what's wrong with you? :con:

JaFO
13th Apr 2005, 01:37 PM
I think this game would be better if (some) mappers stopped adding every damned weapon in their maps. For example something basic like not placing a sniperrifle (or redeemer or Ion-painter, etc.) in a map that's not really designed to be played with that weapon in mind.

For example : it makes 'perfect' sense to limit something like the Avril to ONS, because it so far it is the only damned gametype with vehicles.
However we don't need 'rules' for something like this.

And added to this there's the fact that a modified weapon would further encourage players to limit themselves to a single gametype.

"It worked perfectly for D&D ..." ... funny. In my experience most people ignored D&D and simply chose to play AD&D with fewer rules/restrictions instead, because both were nearly identical anyway. In fact I doubt there's any game that managed to have a strict division between game-variants and survive. Even AD&D got renamed to 'D&D' thereby effecively killing the 'lesser' variant ...

And last but not least : such a list would prevent mappers from creating ONS maps set in an environment were the flakcannon & enforcers would make perfect sense.

Discord
13th Apr 2005, 04:26 PM
And added to this there's the fact that a modified weapon would further encourage players to limit themselves to a single gametype.

Eh... I'm not so sure.

As far as totally different weapons per gametype goes, that's not really where I'm at. My thinking is more oriented towards comments like "the shieldgun is too much in CTF" or the great and soon- to- be moot debate over piston jumping/ team boosting in Assault. What I'm after is performance tweaks oriented toward the specific gametype, with the tweaked versions supplied in the shape of an official mutator.

If you think about it, the foundations of this sort of thing have already been laid:

1. Adrenaline already functions differently between CTF and DM/TDM. That's a good example of what I'd call a rules optimisation.

2. Special provisions were made for the translocator in Bombing Run.

3. Onslaught, of course, has no adrenaline at all and an almost totally different set of weapons (including vehicles). ONS is so differentiated that it is occasionally suggested that it's a completely different game -- kind of an extreme view, but understandable. This example, of course, may not work in my favor since at least from where I'm sitting the exchange of players between ONS and the other gametypes doesn't look to be much.

4. Then you've got the hybrid quasi- gametype VCTF, which in its unfinished state has more rules wierdness than you could shake a stick at -- and the players seem to be adding more every day, including the allowance of behindview for pedestrians in just about all servers.

5. Add on top of that the competitive scene with its insistence on UTComp and various proclivities about what weapons and pickups are "kosher" and which aren't (mainly superweapons, UDamage and adrenaline), and you've almost got a second version of TDM.

Now, if you take some of those factors and some other commonly called- for modifications to the gametype's rules, wrap them up as a non- default mutator and gear the changes toward more demanding players, you may well still end up with the hoped- for success: a lot of players will simply prefer the stock versions of the games and run and populate servers accordingly... meanwhile those with more discriminating pallettes will have a ready- made, easily identifiable and more standardized package to suit their needs/ wants.

I'm not totally convinced it'll work, nor am I 100% sure of the opposite. But given that the muddied- but- discernable outlines of such a system are already apparent via a cobbled- together patchwork of various mutators, I think some investigation might be warranted.

And yes, the community is often said to be highly fragmented with things the way they are... I think some of that may be hyperbole, though. I think that there's probably more switching around between gametypes (at least with the "classic" modes) than people may let on.

Syri
13th Apr 2005, 05:03 PM
could get too spammy :hmm:
for me at least, i think that's a good thing for dm, makes it fast paced, full of weapon fire and constant action. not like ut2k4, where you walk round for ages, bounce of a few walls and fire bullets at each other in near matrix fashion till one dies, which happens all too often for my playing style anyway. at the end of the day, it's down to what each person prefers though. some mutators to allow you to choose a more strategic and movement based, or a faster and more chaotic style would be nice i think...

NiteX
13th Apr 2005, 09:12 PM
for me at least, i think that's a good thing for dm, makes it fast paced, full of weapon fire and constant action.

I agree, that’s what I was kind of aiming for. DM should be very fast and very chaotic (kinda like Unreal Gold) since the DM maps are no where near as big as ONS I think player movement wouldn’t have to be very fast either. While ONS wont be as fast paced and wont be as small as DM maps so I think player movement should be increased a little because of the larger maps. Weapons should also be more long ranged in ONS. In DM they could be more short ranged. (Due to the smaller sized maps). I just want UT3 to have that “smooth” feeling UT99 had. Besides I thought the UT99 Pulse Rifle was done rather well, it didnt seem too spammy to me.

JaFO
14th Apr 2005, 08:52 AM
Discord']Eh... I'm not so sure.

As far as totally different weapons per gametype goes, that's not really where I'm at. My thinking is more oriented towards comments like "the shieldgun is too much in CTF" or the great and soon- to- be moot debate over piston jumping/ team boosting in Assault. What I'm after is performance tweaks oriented toward the specific gametype, with the tweaked versions supplied in the shape of an official mutator.

And what makes an 'official' mutator so 'good' ?
The UCrap-mutator has already shown that 'competive' ladders can and will accept non-official mutators.


1. Adrenaline already functions differently between CTF and DM/TDM. That's a good example of what I'd call a rules optimisation.

no it doesn't. It rewards adrenaline for 'positive'/'good' gameplay in all gametypes. The only 'change' is a few extra rules that make perfect sense.


2. Special provisions were made for the translocator in Bombing Run.

a hack that was implemented after Epic noticed that the average player was incapable of teamplay and still played the game like it was CTF.


3. Onslaught, of course, has no adrenaline at all

which is a shame IMHO as unlike Instagib there's no reason against its use.


and an almost totally different set of weapons (including vehicles). ...

The only 'change' is the fact that it's got anti-vehicle weapons (ie : the Avril).
Any other weapon is perfectly usable in any other gametype.
The 'real' reason those weapons aren't in any other gametypes is the fact that ONS was developed by a completely separate team.


4. Then you've got the hybrid quasi- gametype VCTF, which in its unfinished state has more rules wierdness than you could shake a stick at -- and the players seem to be adding more every day, including the allowance of behindview for pedestrians in just about all servers.

And that's any different from servers running mutators of their own choosing how ?
The only difference is the fact that vCTF never was an official gametype and therefor doesn't even have a core set of rules to begin with. So no one can tell anyone they've got the 'true' version.


5. Add on top of that the competitive scene with its insistence on UTComp and various proclivities about what weapons and pickups are "kosher" and which aren't (mainly superweapons, UDamage and adrenaline), and you've almost got a second version of TDM.

IMHO the 'competitive' scene is a bunch of wimps that can't adopt their gamestyle to a new game so they insist on pushing their own variant.
Besides : not all 'competitive'-ladders deny the existence of superweapons, UDamage, etc ...


...
I'm not totally convinced it'll work, nor am I 100% sure of the opposite.

I'm 100% convinced it won't work, because nothing Epic (or any other official entity) has ever made has been accepted by the general public.
It wouldn't stop anyone from inventing new mutators and it might in fact encourage people to further tweak the mutators until you've got millions of slightly different versions of the 'CTF-alternate-weaponset'-mutator (etc.).

There's only one thing that could stop people from creating their own games and that would be to eliminate the entire concept of modifications from this game. However as consoles have proven this still won't change the fact that everyone likes to play the game in their particular way.

Ignotium
14th Apr 2005, 11:03 PM
hmmmm, i'll miss my LG :(

JaFO
15th Apr 2005, 09:50 AM
don't worry, I'm sure someone will mod it just like the sniperrifle was modded back in in UT2k3

Ignotium
15th Apr 2005, 10:46 AM
don't worry, I'm sure someone will mod it just like the sniperrifle was modded back in in UT2k3
but i't won't be available for the Tournament Mode :( , of course the LG will be in Envy like the Riper in 2k4 or the AGGL