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Vedanth Salian
11th Apr 2005, 07:45 PM
I wanted to know about new seamless loading of the engine. What does it actually do? The big question is will it make the online play better because the next gen is going to take up lots of resources. Will it give ping free gaming? If it is a technique that will boost online play im happy because im really looking forward to playing Conquest with large player counts. Continue your job Epic

Angel_Mapper
11th Apr 2005, 08:06 PM
No, it not give ping free gaming. It's a technique to have very large levels without the game having to open up everything at once. As you head towards a new area, it loads the stuff that section will need, while unloading stuff that the previous sections were using.

FireCrack
11th Apr 2005, 08:20 PM
Yeah, think like the half life games, where thw world was a continous stream of levels. In this case the level you are in as well as the ajoining levels would be loaded.


Now i'm wondering how big these areas will recomendedly be, hmm?

Xipher
11th Apr 2005, 09:06 PM
Seamless loading is similar to how World of Warcraft works, you will notice how their are a number of zones in that game, and as you move from one to the next, it loads the sections your going though. Some one also mentioned it will unload the older data (stuff thats no longer used. If thats the case, unlike World of Warcraft, it won't end up keeping all the data, and instead unloaded un needed data (which would be nice). Part of their reasoning behind the tech being included, was actually to help market the engine to MMO developers (of which I believe their was one mentioned here on BeyondUnreal). Also, I think they mentioned its possibly usage with the "conquest" game type, since those maps are suspected to be as large as 4 Onslaught maps put together, and this would allow the engine to load and unload parts of the map as needed.

Bazzi
12th Apr 2005, 02:48 AM
I pity the dedicated server which has to run that sucker....

B
12th Apr 2005, 03:11 AM
Yeah, think like the half life games, where thw world was a continous stream of levels. In this case the level you are in as well as the ajoining levels would be loaded.


Now i'm wondering how big these areas will recomendedly be, hmm?

I recall HalfLife2 having load screens, so that makes it not Seamless.

edhe
12th Apr 2005, 03:42 AM
True.

Tech was probably born from Lineage II ?

Angel_Mapper
12th Apr 2005, 05:07 AM
The GTA series uses it, not sure if that's the first.

Bot_40
12th Apr 2005, 09:33 AM
hmm but even then you still had loading screens when changing between islands and what have you.
I thought UE3 was supposed to be entirely background loading so you have absolutely no loading screens at all (except when you first load the map of course).

The_Head
12th Apr 2005, 10:30 AM
GTA San Andreas doesn't have loading screens as you go across the map. But you have to put up with shoddy fps, not sure how much the constant loading is to blame. But if it is I would prefer a longer load and better perfomance and no stuttering of the game when playing

kafros
12th Apr 2005, 11:59 AM
seamless loading in PCs would be nice but I expect a drop in frames/sec.

I dont know why this is, but games on PC statter when accessing the hard disc or the CD drive. I can play a game on my PS2 (with its 32MB of memory) and I can see the DVD drive flash all the time as data is read while I play my game (no game frames problem). In a PC game as soon as the HD is accessed the frames drop.

Why do you need a recommened 512MB PC to play some of the latest games that are also played on a 64MB Xbox? Does your OS take up 400MB? Of course not! But the game loads up as much as possible onto RAM because any HD fetching will screw up the frames rate.

I dont know the specific details for this (but I would put my money on the OS-windows), so I do not expect smooth seamless map loads.

Crowze
12th Apr 2005, 12:48 PM
Dungeon Siege. It has been done before, very effectively. Got to agree on the server issue though, unless you have a small cluster of them ;).

Bean316
12th Apr 2005, 12:59 PM
Seamless loading is nice...for a slower game. With all the stuff going in the next UT, as a player, I really would not like to be zooming across a map and suddenly get choked up. I mean, I'm sure it will work fine come release time, but then, by that time, couldn't they have some work done to just load the entire map...

kafros
12th Apr 2005, 02:44 PM
Dungeon Siege. It has been done before, very effectively. Got to agree on the server issue though, unless you have a small cluster of them ;).

Of course it has been done. Seamless means no loading screen (apart from the first of course) - it does not mention anything about perfromance while doing it. And yes in Dungeon Siege you could easily tell when new stuff was loaded up (which I dont mind for my single player RPG but I would rather not see on my favorite multiplayer FPS)

No hiccups while loading from the hard drive (PC only)? hmmmm I will remain a bit skeptical...

P.S.

I will be operated tomorrow (knee) so wish me luck. Doctor says I will not be able to double jump/dodge/trick jump for 2-3 months :(

carmatic
12th Apr 2005, 05:11 PM
aww get well soon kafros

anyway, imagine that, lots and lots of distance fog, and some skybox to get you thinking... like, maybe it can transition across levels and stuff? like maybe instead of just a skybox info actor somewhere in a subtracted space, it would actually move around in that space as the player moves across the actual levels... that would be spectacular...
actually, would there still be skyboxes in UE3? i would think that they dont need it anymore...

Bot_40
12th Apr 2005, 05:49 PM
Didn't realise san andreas had seamless loading sorry, not played.

Anyways, if your pc is stuttering during a game and the hd light is flashing that's most likely swapping which is a completely different thing. That happens when your pc is running low on physical ram so it's constantly having to swap data to and from the hd to save memory.

And yeah, you'd be surprised at how much memory windows uses when you aren't doing anything, just look on the performance tab in task manager. If I ignore the memory firefox is using right now I only have 730MB of available ram out of 1GB.
Plus pc games also use more memory anyways. For example, the higher res textures are often 4-16 times larger.

FireCrack
12th Apr 2005, 05:56 PM
I recall HalfLife2 having load screens, so that makes it not Seamless.


Good thing I never said that it was.

Dark Pulse
12th Apr 2005, 08:46 PM
The GTA series uses it, not sure if that's the first.
First Seamless load game I can remember is Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. This was around 1998 or so.

Enji
12th Apr 2005, 09:27 PM
Seamless loading sounds great but I'd have to agree that's probably not practical for an online bout. However I'd rather not doubt Epic too much. They have this thing for putting out great games graphically. You cannot tell me when UT2k3 came out you weren't impressed by its looks. So now that they're working on an upgrade we should be thankful seeing as all the other PC games are doing it now, (like Half Life 2 and Doom 3) I'm actually kind of excited to see what Epic puts out as our next UT is concerned.

Vedanth Salian
13th Apr 2005, 02:48 AM
Yeah but next UT will take lots of resources, what about online play? Its a online game right.

Angel_Mapper
13th Apr 2005, 03:15 AM
As far as online play they could probably do some things to limit the server load, like not having it load textures and static meshes (just collision data for meshes). Otherwise I don't see how it would be able to load an entire Conquest map as they're described.

edhe
13th Apr 2005, 03:59 AM
How do other games manage it? :)

Tournament0
13th Apr 2005, 04:02 AM
As far as online play they could probably do some things to limit the server load, like not having it load textures and static meshes (just collision data for meshes). Otherwise I don't see how it would be able to load an entire Conquest map as they're described.

Don't worry, it's Unreal Engine 3.
Epic will think of something, maybe they already have.
I'm sure it will be good.

The_Head
13th Apr 2005, 12:38 PM
Don't worry, it's Unreal Engine 3.
Epic will think of something, maybe they already have.
I'm sure it will be good.
I agree. I was astonished by how well UT2003 ran when it first came out. I get over 60fps all the time on my computer. Much more than on Halo... And UT looks miles better. I wont go into all the other things better about UT than Halo.

JonAzz
13th Apr 2005, 01:53 PM
I don't think with seamless lever loading serers would be that much of a problem... all the loading of the map is done cleint side, only the server does is tell the cleints where the player is or anything else that other players see at once. so you would probaly need to worry about your own computer rather the server...

infact I think this might boost your FPS... seamless level loading works the same way that static meshes do and the terrain. stuff that is behind you, occluded by distance fog/antiportals is not rendered (well it is, just not fully). but instead of having just portions of the geometery or stuff you can't see, entire sections of the map that you can't see will not be even loaded. maybe as you get closer and closer to the area it will start loading the stuff, this way it will be less system intensive. the only thing with this to worry about is teleporting...

Bazzi
13th Apr 2005, 03:30 PM
seamless loading in PCs would be nice but I expect a drop in frames/sec.

I dont know why this is, but games on PC statter when accessing the hard disc or the CD drive. I can play a game on my PS2 (with its 32MB of memory) and I can see the DVD drive flash all the time as data is read while I play my game (no game frames problem). In a PC game as soon as the HD is accessed the frames drop.

Why do you need a recommened 512MB PC to play some of the latest games that are also played on a 64MB Xbox? Does your OS take up 400MB? Of course not! But the game loads up as much as possible onto RAM because any HD fetching will screw up the frames rate.

I dont know the specific details for this (but I would put my money on the OS-windows), so I do not expect smooth seamless map loads.

consoles are designed to stream the content from the disc since they dont have much RAM. That also explains why you dont need much RAM for those games compared to PC.

Bazzi
13th Apr 2005, 03:32 PM
I don't think with seamless lever loading serers would be that much of a problem... all the loading of the map is done cleint side, only the server does is tell the cleints where the player is or anything else that other players see at once. so you would probaly need to worry about your own computer rather the server...


Well the server must have the whole map loaded since there are some players in every area.... and the server also does collision/some physics stuff and needs to load the objects (though textureless) in order to calculate those.

That's what I know, correct my if I'm wrong.

Crowze
13th Apr 2005, 03:58 PM
Not to mention bots if they are there. How can a server serve if it doesn't know what it's serving?

Defeat
13th Apr 2005, 04:01 PM
>Yeah it'll work just like RAM does. FAR CRY was low on loading screens and high on level space.

Syri
13th Apr 2005, 04:08 PM
True.

Tech was probably born from Lineage II ?
more than likely. i'd expect epic have worked a bit with NCSoft, or whoever developed lineage 2, to get the game working. and i for one was hugely impressed with what they did using the unreal engine on that game. shame they didn't get the gameplay to match, but that's another story...
but yes, it's certainly possible, as lineage 2 proves, to make seamless loading using the unreal engine, and it works well for it too.

rhirud
14th Apr 2005, 03:57 AM
The thing with seamless loading is that it takes away a server's boundary.

Great for the player, but more difficult for the owner of the server.

Already, you need hefty cpu power to run a smooth 32 player game, and what will motivate the server's owner to continue that level of commitment to the game when players won't particularly know which server they are acually occupying at a particular point in time.

Also, when it comes to "be nice and no swearing" servers- with players banned from a server - how will that work in a seamless environment.

edhe
14th Apr 2005, 05:17 AM
Um, no.

We're not talking about seamless servers, we're talking about seamless map loading.

carmatic
14th Apr 2005, 06:58 AM
which i think can mean one client computer connected to multiple servers at a time, etc... not just seamless level loading, but seamless server connections ....
one way i can think of this is like, when you join a game you join to a tightly coherent bunch of servers that treat you like a single server does but can do the job of many different servers... maybe each bunch of servers will behave like a mini-utan or something when it comes to banning players...but it will be very difficult for normal people to get together and coordinate their servers and games are much more fragile because maybe if one of the servers go down then the rest of the servers are in trouble

or if people can run a seamless loading conquest map on their own computer , then it will be like something angel mapper described or something...
but , in conquest i think you only fight 2 teams at the same time, i read that somewhere before,i think that this in addition to the fact that its a persistent world makes me think that its gonna be run on official epic servers, mmorpg style...

Nahand
14th Apr 2005, 09:53 AM
... that MMORPG thing is not that far fetched actually, given the seemingly high popularity of that genre of games, and EPIC entering the money-lot with an established franchise while not exactly "competing" with MMORPG's, since UT would be... well... an FPS...

... there's one small detail though: i *hate* MMORPG's, because of their gameplay mechanics and world-accessing politic, wich in turn represents a way of using games as a ludicrious income scheme, that is (to my utter repulse) taking an already big size in the game industry, and the way game companies are (willingly or cash-pressed) pointing their creative efforts. This rambling is relevant to this point because i don't want to see EPIC wasting another game of the franchise with stupidity like that. My fingers are bleeding, being so crossed...


... and about several servers... why? Won't processing power by then be fully able to support such game theorem? EPIC made no statement (until now) about any ground-breaking server rules worldwide, for a game. I think not.

Vedanth Salian
17th Apr 2005, 10:22 AM
What about MMORPG? Arent these games with massive worlds? then how do they run online?

If they can do it why cant in Ut?

Cant doubt Epic. From the way they supported Ut2004 like making better netcode and all the patches they are my favourite devolopers. if they can give a truly revolutionary Unreal Tournament & Gears of Wars their whole status in gaming industry will change (mostly gamers).

carmatic
17th Apr 2005, 01:08 PM
naah, epic is good, so the conquest mode will be free to use... its only people who license the engine to make use of its seamless loading and make mmorpgs that you would hate...

Angel_Mapper
17th Apr 2005, 01:57 PM
I don't think they mean more than one server running the game, although I do think that will be possible if someone licenses the engine to make a MMORPG.

Bazzi
17th Apr 2005, 04:07 PM
What about MMORPG? Arent these games with massive worlds? then how do they run online?

Well, MMORPGs don't have accurate collision/physics to handle, they also have one big beefed up box as server for one world.

Syri
17th Apr 2005, 06:12 PM
Well, MMORPGs don't have accurate collision/physics to handle, they also have one big beefed up box as server for one world.
they use several for 1 world in most cases. i know that in dark age of camelot, they had a cluster of 5 (i think it was anyway) dual xeon servers, each making up 1 game server. i'd expect most mmorpgs work the same.
as has already been said though, they handle such a large amount even on 1 server, because there's no physics, no collision detection, no fast paced action, it's really not much more than database lookups on the server side, and co-ordinate tracking, if you strip it down to it's basics.
meanwhile an fps game also has collision detection, physics, tracking location of particles and projectiles from weapon fire, and a lot quicker response is needed aswell.

Vedanth Salian
18th Apr 2005, 10:19 AM
The netcode will definitely be a challenge to implement then. But i'm sure epic will pull it off in the right way. the way they are making statement that the next UT is gonna be the best Ut with gameplay and all that thing I dont think they will screw us up with bad netcode. I have a really big impression of Epic. Any ways there arent lack of servers for UT2004, its always empty. so they can do something.

I had a question to ask. Did you see their GDC demo? The one with the scorpion navigating. Was that a map of conquest? Just curious?

Tournament0
18th Apr 2005, 10:36 AM
I don't even think it was a "Envy" video. Even if it was, that was probably a test map.

edhe
18th Apr 2005, 11:07 AM
Useless regurgitation of other people's words, pointless non-opinion, cluttering rubbish, no explanations to statements.

Bazzi
18th Apr 2005, 04:14 PM
they use several for 1 world in most cases. i know that in dark age of camelot, they had a cluster of 5 (i think it was anyway) dual xeon servers, each making up 1 game server. i'd expect most mmorpgs work the same.
as has already been said though, they handle such a large amount even on 1 server, because there's no physics, no collision detection, no fast paced action, it's really not much more than database lookups on the server side, and co-ordinate tracking, if you strip it down to it's basics.
meanwhile an fps game also has collision detection, physics, tracking location of particles and projectiles from weapon fire, and a lot quicker response is needed aswell.

Well yeah but you can be as crazy as putting 8 dual core opterons in a server right now so the number it doesnt really matter :D:D:D

Enji
19th Apr 2005, 01:33 PM
Well they can make all of the conquest maps Epic owned and ran. A big company like Epic should be able to handle supporting servers that take full use of the real time physics, lighting, textures, and seamless loading for its players. But I guess we won't know for sure until they release information on what they're going to do.