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NiteX
6th Apr 2005, 01:42 PM
I noticed that Envy no longer has the combos that were first introduced in UT2k3. In a way I'm very glad. The combo system felt awkward and out of place in UT. While it did add a little more to it, it just didn’t feel right. Also, the giant capsule pills in the maps looked very silly. So is anyone else glad to see this go? I have to admit though speed helped out a lot in CTF. Booster also helped out in Invasion. Other than that, they didn’t have much use. If they do keep a “power up” system I would rather have something similar to the UC2 system or make them as pick ups sort of like Udamage. But I don’t want any more pills in any of the maps.

Selerox
6th Apr 2005, 01:53 PM
The Adrenaline system was very unpopular with a lot of people (myself included). It might have worked out well under a different type of system, but it was unworkable the way it was. The adrenaline screwed up teams games a lot and made for some unbalanced games.

I'm pretty glad to see it go, but the idea of maybe having some of the "powers" as pickup items would work (Invisibility was a pickup in the original UT, not sure about Unreal). Maybe a toned down Booster or Berzerk pickup might work, other than that I don't think it's useable.

carmatic
6th Apr 2005, 01:54 PM
or you can revert to the system back in ut99 where you picked up these thingies which gave you adrenaline-like properties... i think that was much cooler, plus it helps bring back the ut99'ers

Xaero
6th Apr 2005, 01:59 PM
Im suprised noone compained that the little pills in 2k4 would turn their kids into drug addicts. :lol:

I'm glad to see them go as well.

1337
6th Apr 2005, 02:01 PM
The main thing that caused me to dislike the adrenaline was the combos were always set off on accident. I always do the speed combo accidently in TAM because I forward dodge a lot, and my double click time is at .14. Plus all the combos but invisibility and booster throw off you aim and/or weapon reload time. I think it would be better if the adrenaline combo could be enabled by pressing one button then pressing the corresponding pattern to execute the combo.

T2A`
6th Apr 2005, 02:28 PM
I dodge back and forth a lot so I sometimes activate invisibility accidently and it pisses me off. Having (some) of them as pickups is a better idea.

UnrealGrrl
6th Apr 2005, 03:01 PM
lol its funny, Relics got a bad name when they came out for UT now ppl want them back (in a way) i guess its all relative. i liked them better than adren myself... theres nothing like a good vengence relic to clear a flag room ;)

JaFO
6th Apr 2005, 03:04 PM
IMHO the real problems for the 'combo'-system were/are :
- that it was impossible to extend (there's only so many ways you can hit directional-buttons and remember what sequence activates what power)

- it is very newbie-unfriendly
IIRC the combo's weren't exactly documented completely, which was their worst idea ever.

I'm not sure how UC1 handled combo's, but in UC2 they aren't the impossible FF/BB-type key-sequences. It kind of works like the voicecommands in UT.
ie : hit <combo-key> to indicate you want a combo, then press <key 1> for adrenaline-power 1 and you're set.

I do like the idea of being able to choose when and where to activate these powers, because limiting their use near the origin of the 'artifact' would kind of negate the threat/tactical advantage of having them.

UnrealGrrl
6th Apr 2005, 03:18 PM
well hopefully its not too much like uc2 because combos there are intended to be used all the time... if they even included any i would hope they were limited like relics were. but we'll all wait n see! :)

Tournament0
6th Apr 2005, 03:34 PM
I agree with Selerox and NiteX. I'm glad to the see the adrenaline go. It just didn't fit in the game properly. It serves no purpose.
Bye, adrenaline.
:)

O.S.T
6th Apr 2005, 03:39 PM
- it is very newbie-unfriendly

not only how to use it, in game too
I was on a server where a guy made the invisible combo all the time and all the newbies there didn't had a chance
but on the other hand: he was a pretty bad player, even moi beat him, so he was a very bad player :p

carmatic
6th Apr 2005, 03:51 PM
adrrreeENNNAAALLIIINNeee!!

anyway, yeah theyre called 'relics', well like if adrenalines needed 4 keypresses to start, and they had 4 keys to press, then it would be 4 X 4 X 4 X 4 number of possibilities, all you gotta do is remember which one you want... like , try remembering 256 types of different combos to pull off in an instant in any given situation , feels more like martial arts than playing a nice relaxing game of owning someone...

JaFO
6th Apr 2005, 03:52 PM
well hopefully its not too much like uc2 because combos there are intended to be used all the time... if they even included any i would hope they were limited like relics were. but we'll all wait n see! :)
That I agree. The UC2-system makes combo's far too easy and common.
'Envy' should make it a less common occurence.

Some ideas :
- less pills on a given map (something Epic and some community-maps already did in UT2k4)

- the 'system'/powers are unavailable for a little while after being used

- after using a combo the amount of adrenaline gained for various activities is severely reduced

That could result in adrenaline-powers becoming valued commodities that need to be saved for that 'special' moment.

Nemephosis
6th Apr 2005, 04:48 PM
Did they ever actively say that adren is gone, or are we just working off the fact that they haven't said it will be in yet?

I've been reading up on UT2006 (that's what I'm going by, I hate the codename) as much as I can and I haven't heard that Adren is definitely gone.

Besides, some diehard will mod it in I'm sure.

BooGiTyBoY
6th Apr 2005, 04:55 PM
I'm gonna miss my berzerk shield jumping....
*sniff sniff.

T2A`
6th Apr 2005, 05:16 PM
Pickups make more sense considering double damage is a pickup. Look at Q3 for an example. They have Haste, which replaces both UT2004's speed and berserk combos.

I will miss berserk shield jumping though...

"Blue flag taken!" (Citadel)
One Mississippi...
Two Mississippi...
Three Mississippi...
Four Mississippi...
Five Mississippi...
"Red team increases their lead!"

:D

NiteX
6th Apr 2005, 05:31 PM
Did they ever actively say that adren is gone, or are we just working off the fact that they haven't said it will be in yet?
.

Heh, I was thinking about that as well. When I made the post I wasn't sure if they just didn't announce it yet, or if they really removed the combos. So I really wanted to make this thread to just find out who liked the combo system and who didn't. Clearly everyone is against it. I'm pretty sure that Envy will no longer have the combo system. At least not how is was in 2k3/2k4. I could easily be wrong though.

BooGiTyBoY
6th Apr 2005, 05:39 PM
I will miss berserk shield jumping though...

"Blue flag taken!" (Citadel)
One Mississippi...
Two Mississippi...
Three Mississippi...
Four Mississippi...
Five Mississippi...
"Red team increases their lead!"

Player: "OMG FOOKIN' H4X0r!!!!"
"You have been kicked from Server"



Fixed. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

JaFO
6th Apr 2005, 05:51 PM
Did they ever actively say that adren is gone, or are we just working off the fact that they haven't said it will be in yet?

You're right ... I don't recall reading that either, but then again I never read the CGW-article. I think a lot of people are currently making their own assumptions about the features in UT2k6/'Envy' based on their own fears, hates & wants.
I'd wished that Epic had told us 'Envy' = april fools' joke, instead of starting the hype-machine like this.


...
Besides, some diehard will mod it in I'm sure.
I doubt they could mod it because the button-combo's themselves were part of the core-system, unless I'm mistaken.

carmatic
6th Apr 2005, 06:06 PM
hm april fools is some strange time to be announcing a game allright...

there are mods out there that give you extra adrenaline combos for ut2k3 and 2k4, but maybe they will make it so that envy is impossible to log keystrokes to execute combos

personally i dont have that much of a problem with accidentally executing combos, like i dont even get enough adrenaline most of the matches im in
besides, having the invisible combo in invasion is just pure uselessness, the monsters attack you all the same

Mr.Magnetichead
6th Apr 2005, 06:23 PM
UC 2 adren works really well, If it were to return I hope it's more like that.

Zur
6th Apr 2005, 06:47 PM
Invisibility + flak = bleh. The invisibility combo brings a great imbalance in a game and I just can't imagine it being used in duels. In UT, invisibility was a pickup so anyone could use it but, in UT2004, the adrenaline is given as a reward to those who play best. That's a big mistake.

hal
6th Apr 2005, 06:48 PM
I'd like to see Adrenaline gone altogether. I'd also like to see Relics as an option (set default to "off").

Not any Relics, mind you. Not the attrocities inflicted upon us in the UT bonus pack.

I'm talking about the Threewave type relics or the relics in the first generation of Unreal's RealCTF.

THAT is the way to add some depth to the game without being cheesy imho.

Go&nd
6th Apr 2005, 10:54 PM
I'd like to see Adrenaline gone altogether. I'd also like to see Relics as an option (set default to "off").

Not any Relics, mind you. Not the attrocities inflicted upon us in the UT bonus pack.

I'm talking about the Threewave type relics or the relics in the first generation of Unreal's RealCTF.

THAT is the way to add some depth to the game without being cheesy imho.
I agree 100 percent with what he^ said. :):tup:

B
7th Apr 2005, 04:20 AM
Imo the biggest flaw of the adrenaline is that it rewards the better players. The more kills you make the faster your adrenaline is full and you gain an advantage over the less skilled players. And if you're making so much kills you are allready have an advantage over the others players, skill.
Maybe rewarding the lesser players with adrenaline will balance it. But how to reward the lesser players with adrenaline? Maybe something like gain 10 adrenaline when dying?

But no, I don't mind to see it go.

daloonie
7th Apr 2005, 04:28 AM
Never really used it ingame. I always end up in the end of a game with full adrenaline. Then it's fun to make a speed combo and make som anim taunts.

But rather glad to see that one go.

edhe
7th Apr 2005, 04:35 AM
Ban Adren \o/

Relics were also cheap and annoying - unless you were in a mood for Vengeance :D

imho more pickups - Increase the depth of game and mapping requirements by adding in more than just shield & damage. If you have pickups that berserk, boost etc then they could be controlled, and used tactically. Or just give the newstarts a cool kickass moment when they double & treble up on powers and own everyone accidentally.

Of course, then you'd have to address that balance of multiple pickups being too strong ala UT's glowing gold belt & amp hogs.

As a general point, i don't like Invis in games.

kafros
7th Apr 2005, 06:55 AM
I on the other hand, would like to see introduction of new abilities/combos but with an easier inerface. (what are the UC2 combos/melee attacks and how are they used by the way?)

As for the adrenaline overpowering good players, an easy solution would be to generate at a constant rate for all players. So everybody can do special thingy X every Y seconds.

Another solution would be to get adrenaline for inficting OR taking damage. So anyone who is active in a fight (winning or loosing) will get some adrenaline.

hal
7th Apr 2005, 09:35 AM
Relics were also cheap and annoying - unless you were in a mood for Vengeance :D

imho more pickups - Increase the depth of game and mapping requirements by adding in more than just shield & damage. If you have pickups that berserk, boost etc then they could be controlled, and used tactically. Or just give the newstarts a cool kickass moment when they double & treble up on powers and own everyone accidentally.

Of course, then you'd have to address that balance of multiple pickups being too strong ala UT's glowing gold belt & amp hogs.
.

When you say they are annoying, you must be refering to the UT relics.

Have you tried the original Unreal Real CTF or Threewave relics? I think you'd change your mind.

edhe
7th Apr 2005, 10:12 AM
Nope, never played 'em hal.

hal
7th Apr 2005, 03:03 PM
Ah okay. Well if you've just got UT relics to compare to then I understand your statement better.

Threewave/RealCTF tech/relics consist of exactly four different type pickups: Haste (weapons fire rate - not insane running speeds), Regen (a small amount of health regeneration), Defense (less damage), and Amp (weapons damage more).

Each map has only ONE of each of these, spawned randomly. This initially encourages everyone to spread out to find them, as controlling them can give your team a bit of an advantage if used correctly. If you are carrying tech and are killed, you drop the tech/relic and your killer is rewarded.

The thing about them is this: by being aggressive with them you have an advantage in power, but you also risk losing them to the other team. By being defensive with them, you can't really score - can you?

It really gives an incentive to be aggressive, but not suicidal. It rewards smart team play. No one relic is so powerful on its own that having it would make you untouchable. But if you coordinate with your team, you have a pretty decent advantage. And of course, you can pass them back and forth to your team mate just as you would a weapon.

I'd love to see something like this as an option (or at least a mutator from some clever modder).

Captain Kewl
7th Apr 2005, 04:47 PM
The Bonus Pack relics were sloppily coded. I'm pretty sure they were supposed to behave like Threewave, but for some reason they got messed up easily.

hal
7th Apr 2005, 09:06 PM
They weren't much like Threewave at all. First of all, they were just littered across the maps. You couldn't hardly walk for stepping on one. Then the effects they had were just a little overpowered.

Captain Kewl
8th Apr 2005, 12:29 AM
Because there were like 6 of them. The four that were analogous to Quake runes I remember being pretty accurate -- they were overpowered in Quake too (which I always thought was the point).

I'm just saying that (I'm pretty sure that) 5 damage relics floating around in a single level wasn't the way it was supposed to work.

BooGiTyBoY
8th Apr 2005, 12:36 AM
I never saw more than 1 type in any server I ever played on.... and this includes my own instant action and listen servers as well.

edhe
8th Apr 2005, 03:36 AM
Didn't set them up right ;)

The UT relics were a little 'sloppy' but they were mediocre fun. What hal describes does sound better. Something that can give a moderate increase in ability without totally tipping the balance - almost like dynamic a classing system :B

Would help vary the public gameplay - but how does 4 fit into 10, or 32 players, well ? :)

carmatic
9th Apr 2005, 05:42 AM
Each map has only ONE of each of these, spawned randomly.


hm this reminds me of that 'core combat' planetside thing when i think of this together with conquest... imagine, each stitched map in a conquest level brings with it its own relic, and the person carrying it will emit an xmp-like trail of smoke and be almost untouchable when hes with his teammates and he has a decent amount of skill...

i think that this idea of a dynamic classing system is kind of cool too, it keeps the game fresh with more fun luck, rather than haphazardously tipping the balance around

and yeah, adrenaline should be given to reward activity, not just skill... cuz like if you are losing already and the winning player then has an advantage over you, it kind of feels less like a sport than something you'd rather give up on

i've never tried invisibility + flak.. what is it like?

Nahand
9th Apr 2005, 06:03 AM
... teh sh1t?...

Nereid
9th Apr 2005, 09:34 PM
I couldn't care less if Adrenaline were to be taken out of the game. It would be interesting to see some type of relic system - not like the UT Bonus Pack ones, but something like what hal was talking about.

Of course, they should be off by default :)

Epic hasn't put Adrenaline in yet. Let's hope they keep it that way. :)

JaFO
11th Apr 2005, 07:40 PM
I don't see how 'relics' would help the new/novice player at all.
The only reason a novice would even 'collect' such a relic is because of the random location prevents the veterans from memorizing the location and using that info to stop anyone else from ever getting access.

I do like the idea of being able to drop the active 'power' and reward the killer, but even that would eventually place the relic in the hands of the 'better' player.

IMHO there's no way a relic/adrenaline power won't increase the gap between players in favour of the 'better' player. However 'rare' relics of limited power that appear at a random location probably are the only way such a feature can be added without causing too many problems compared to any other method.

I do think that no matter how this is implemented that it should be part of the interactive tutorials in the game.

Discord
11th Apr 2005, 09:16 PM
[ol' crusty]Back in UT days, we had a mutator called "spree bonus" that worked very much like adrenaline... sort of.[/ol' crusty] If you got a Killing Spree, you got the thighpads. If you extended to Rampage, you got the armor. At higher levels of the spree, you got UDamage, shieldbelt, the works. These weren't temporary, either... they lasted as long as they would if you'd run over the corresponding pickup.

It was kind of a nice alternative system for doing what adrenaline does, but at the same time kind of a drag as well... way overpowered. When adren first came out, I thought "Ah, a balanced version of spree bonus -- N1." Then I realized that spree bonus had one virtue that adren didn't: it was a wacky custom mutator that you didn't run into that often, whereas adren was everywhere. Given that last factor, I think spree bonus was far superior.

If adrenaline goes the way of the dodo, I doubt I'll shed a single tear -- it's silly.

JaFO
12th Apr 2005, 09:08 AM
Of course adrenaline/powerups are silly!
So what ? It's not like the UT-series was ever meant to be serious ... just look at the Nalicow in UT99. :p ;)

Discord
12th Apr 2005, 01:57 PM
Well, yeah... true dat... but still adrenaline is silliness masquerading as seriousness. Relics, on the other hand, are unabashedly ridiculous. If you're gonna be silly, you need to put on the big shoes says I. And also you ought remember that brevity is the soul of wit. =OP

Mr.Magnetichead
14th Apr 2005, 03:10 AM
Play UC2 and then see how you like Adrenaline.

Nahand
14th Apr 2005, 06:10 AM
... the more the evil candy flying around a map, the worst. IMO that is... all the way back to RA-theory...

carmatic
14th Apr 2005, 06:30 AM
i still think that players ought to be rewarded for activity and not success... like if one person kills another, both of them get equal amounts of adrenaline... and just in case the guy that got killed was a noob, nobody should be allowed online until theyve been through all the tutorials so everyone has an equal advantage in terms of adrenaline, and it will keep the gameplay interesting ... like from time to time someone runs at extra speed, or shoots extra fast, or has regeneration, or becomes invisible... could be anyone not just the good players

but the relic system has this 'woah, whats this' factor when you find one floating around somewhere with all the lights and stuff around it... and unlike adrenaline, killing the player with the relic rewards you with the relic itself so its got more competitive gameplay (i think)

Syri
14th Apr 2005, 08:23 AM
Of course adrenaline/powerups are silly!
So what ? It's not like the UT-series was ever meant to be serious ... just look at the Nalicow in UT99. :p ;)
talking of the nalicow, they need to return in envy! :D

JaFO
14th Apr 2005, 08:29 AM
I guess you want one that's anatomically correct (ie : complete with udders) ?
You sick bastard :p ;)

carmatic
14th Apr 2005, 09:33 AM
nalicows dont have udders i think... well when you look at them in unreal 1 (and maybe the 'seegoats' in unreal 2) they look like reptilian rabbits....having a weapon mount on their back and the ability to say 'moo' is more important than being anatomically correct, i think...

Nahand
14th Apr 2005, 10:00 AM
... besides, an iconic species of Unreal Universe never got properly portrayed in UT games after the original UT: Skaarj and Nali. Nali doesn't seem to exist as a fact after Unreal itself, being the UT rendition a simple "copy/paste" thing to geive something more to the folks (and yes, i know all about that oH-Nali-aren't-mean-or-war-like ****-chat). Then, there's the Skaarj... poor guys just keep getting worse until they've considered extint in the new Envy (?). UT2004 Skaarj-that-look-like-LoTR-orcs anyone?...

... i want a warcow... and a battlebunny...

JaFO
14th Apr 2005, 01:00 PM
The problem with 'Skaarj' is that they'd be too massive compared to the ordinary players if they'd been given proper sizes. The 'skaarj' in UC2-demo looks more like one of the brutes in Unreal 1.

iron12
14th Apr 2005, 01:14 PM
I wish they had it if you kill someone that had the double damage then you could pick it up if there was still time on it.

And I thought the jumpboots where cool to.

Discord
14th Apr 2005, 02:27 PM
I wish they had it if you kill someone that had the double damage then you could pick it up if there was still time on it.

Look for a mutator called "Drop Everything." I think there may be another one that does that as well, not sure...

T2A`
14th Apr 2005, 02:50 PM
I wish they had it if you kill someone that had the double damage then you could pick it up if there was still time on it.The game came with a mutator called UDamage Reward that does just that. :con:

Discord
14th Apr 2005, 02:52 PM
The game came with a mutator called UDamage Reward that does just that. :con:


YEAH! THAT'S THE ONE!!!

/headsmack :shake:

Nahand
14th Apr 2005, 03:32 PM
The problem with 'Skaarj' is that they'd be too massive compared to the ordinary players if they'd been given proper sizes. The 'skaarj' in UC2-demo looks more like one of the brutes in Unreal 1.

... that's why EPIC came up with the wonderfull Skaarj Hybrid idea in UT. I never switched from such model ever after :) . Similar thing should be done in the new UT IMO...