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Stilz
31st Mar 2005, 04:19 PM
I dont think im in the minority on this. If youre gonna take out the LG and replace it with the sniper rifle PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT put in the garbage smoke puff like 2k4. It's just flat out annoying. If this is gonna be the "hitscan" weapon of the game, the smoke needs to go away.

PUFF PUFF PASS!

Slainchild
31st Mar 2005, 04:33 PM
I voted no.

Radiosity
31st Mar 2005, 04:38 PM
Also voted no. A more interesting poll would've been 'should the LtG be removed?', to which the answer would also be NO. Still, time will tell.

DraZtiK
31st Mar 2005, 04:45 PM
I disagree totally....you should edit the poll to add the LG in.

in UT99 the sniper is what everyone was used too....then in UT2003 everyone had a fit about a "lightning gun". most people I know now would rather have the LG instead of the Sniper. now there are widely used mutators to replace the sniper with the LG. In comp. games anyway.

I say leave it alone.


regardless...all the polls, requests and comments will be totally ignored by Epic and they will again release a game they want instead of the community.

Dark Pulse
31st Mar 2005, 05:03 PM
Personally I don't like it, but I feel it's necessary for balance. Yes from me. I've caught snipers by their smoke.

Stilz
31st Mar 2005, 05:32 PM
but then again you probably play onslaught so you dont count.

fresh&minty
31st Mar 2005, 06:03 PM
The sniper rifle in 2k4 is a reverse debacle of what it original was, it went from way over powered, to way under powered.

The swap out rate kills it for DM.

1337
31st Mar 2005, 06:35 PM
If the sniper gun looks like it is in the UC2 I wont be so pissed. As long as it doesn't look like the ut2k4 one. And instead of using the silly puff, if they use the one from ut2k4, they should decrease the rof and make it do more damage like the lg.

Taleweaver
31st Mar 2005, 06:51 PM
but then again you probably play onslaught so you dont count.
Judging from your post amount, I'd say you're quite new around here. That's okay. Welcome to the BeyondUnreal forums* :)

Now...we appreciate your efforts to get to know what everyone thinks about what is and how things should/could/should not be in the next UT. However, keep a few guidelines in mind, will ya?
First of all, there's a "reply" button on each message. Please use it if you're replying to someone; it helps to make it clear against who you're talking to.
The second tip I can give you is that forumming is a lot more fun if you respect each other's opinions and not go into assumptions from people you don't know yet. Thrust me: flamewars can start quickly with careless posts that didn't meant any offence...

Okay...So far my off-topic rant. Personally, I prefer the puff on, because it helps to locate the sniper better (and no, I'm not an onslaught player). I do agree with fresh&minty that the rate to switch weapons after a shot is way too low, and that this is a much worse disadvantage than a bit of smoke.

Oh, and how about the option to add the smoke puff but without it blocking the sniper's aim? I'm okay with that as well :)
EDIT: and make that gun do more damage! 60 damage per hit isn't enough for a weapon like this.

* the same goes to the other new posters as well...It's just a bit much to give everyone an individual welcome message ;)

Stilz
31st Mar 2005, 06:52 PM
new to this forum yes. i post at prounreal for ut related topics normally and ive been in the ut community for 6 years now.

also i dont know of a sniper rifle that gives a huge puff of smoke. kinda defeats the purpose of being a "sniper".

captainrad
31st Mar 2005, 06:59 PM
i think the lightning gun should have smoke..baha, nah not really.

Stilz
31st Mar 2005, 07:09 PM
i think the lightning gun should have smoke..baha, nah not really.

See thats the thing. I'ts gonna be the main hitscan since they took out the LG and theyre gonna keep that smoke in there?...its just retarded.

JohnDoe641
31st Mar 2005, 09:43 PM
The sniper rifle can go burn in hell for all I care. As long as the swirch tme is the same for all weapons, including the SR which wasn't the case in 2k4, then I guess it doesn't matter to me.

but then again you probably play onslaught so you dont count.
pro D:

Dark Pulse
31st Mar 2005, 11:06 PM
but then again you probably play onslaught so you dont count.
Yeah, I do, and I'm damn good at it. But it's not all I play.

Do try to know your role around here, because I'd probably eat you for lunch in a game.

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 06:22 AM
lmao... oh lord, ONS players talking smack now, whats next the invasion players :lol:

Look son, just because you don't know the who is who, out side of this forum, doesn't mean you stand a ghost of chance vs them.

B
1st Apr 2005, 06:59 AM
Personally I don't like it, but I feel it's necessary for balance. Yes from me. I've caught snipers by their smoke.
I'm with DP on this one, it balances the gun.

but then again you probably play onslaught so you dont count.
WTF is that supposed to mean? :con:

also i dont know of a sniper rifle that gives a huge puff of smoke. kinda defeats the purpose of being a "sniper".
If you would have read the posts, It's to balance the gun.

See thats the thing. I'ts gonna be the main hitscan since they took out the LG and theyre gonna keep that smoke in there?...its just retarded.
I bet the Shockrifle is the main hitscan weapon, not the Sniper.

lmao... oh lord, ONS players talking smack now, whats next the invasion players :lol:
Look son, just because you don't know the who is who, out side of this forum, doesn't mean you stand a ghost of chance vs them.
I think you shouldn't underestimate players who post here. The skill is alot better than you might think.

damn...what's with all these 2 post-people thinking they know it all?

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 08:09 AM
ONS players having no frag skills and being noobs is a known trait of the gametype. Honestly invasion players/offline players probably have more skill.

While you might not know who stilz is I do. He is a competitive TDM player, and isn't half bad at it. If your daft enough to think that posts on forums = skill in game your a bit dense.

So that said, back to debate.

1. Smoke balances nothing. Sniping is (by nature of this game) a detriment to the team that has the sniper... you help the other guys by doing it. There is no such thing as a good sniper, there are only bad ones. The only thing smoke does (with good players, read not noobs) is piss off both the player with the sniper, and the player shooting at him.

2. Any player above low skill tier knows that the sniper balance was done via ROF/damage vs swap out time. Sadly this is what they royal f'd up. Even with it's higher ROF the sniper is still worthless, because the swap out time is so massive the gun fails because you can't bail it. Fact, ltg first hit, shock second deals more damage, takes less time, and gives a better chance for consecutive follow up shots. Top it off with the fact that the LTG has a chance for some splash, and a double kill, and the sniper starts to look more and more like nerf gun. The ONLY arguements in it's favor are the better scope (read #1 for that sniping only hurts your own team so who gives a rats ass), and the higher ROF (which I already pointed out weapon swaps are faster/better).

But I guess you already knew all that since you have more posts on this forum?

Mr.Magnetichead
1st Apr 2005, 08:12 AM
Only if it's volumetric.

AntiMatter
1st Apr 2005, 09:44 AM
Wheres the "Dont really care and bring back the LG option" ;)

-AEnubis-
1st Apr 2005, 10:58 AM
See thats the thing. I'ts gonna be the main hitscan since they took out the LG and theyre gonna keep that smoke in there?...its just retarded.

It being hitscan is only an assumption.

ONS players having no frag skills and being noobs is a known trait of the gametype. Honestly invasion players/offline players probably have more skill.

There are exceptions to every rule.

While you might not know who stilz is I do. He is a competitive TDM player, and isn't half bad at it. If your daft enough to think that posts on forums = skill in game your a bit dense.

Post count on fourms has nothing to do with it, but attitude is another thing. Anyone daft enough to talk about somone they haven't seen play based on a loose "rule" as you put it is pretty dense. Most of the time he who barks the loudest, doesn't bite so hard.

So that said, back to debate.

<snip>

But I guess you already knew all that since you have more posts on this forum?

Actually, yes, and I'm sure I speak for myself, and Bee (and most forum regulars here). There is a way to abandon the cSR, if server enabled. It's called throw weapon. Most competative servers allow it, usually only Epic Demo servers don't.

Balance encompasses a lot of things, a great many things some "compeative" players think it shouldn't, and hence they don't acknowledge it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

If hidden properly, and being used to back up another player in a fire fight, do you really think the weapon would be out of balance still without the bullet trace, and puf of smoke to find the sniper? The switch out time means nothing if you can't find him to shoot him. The second biggest inbalance of the UT sniper rifle was it's untraceability. That's why the LtG was born, and why the sniper rifle has all these stupid little "nerfs".

Now, I do agree, that if they don't want you to hide and snipe, they maybe shouldn't "call it" a sniper rifle, but trying to dictate how it should work by it's name is silly.

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 11:27 AM
Bail means after first shot, swap out, not throw, sorry you fail. Next.

The "balance" of the smoke cloud only works in noob situations. IE to jokers taking pot shots from across a map like face classic. Anybody who is out of the baby pool is just anoyed by it, perhaps because (shock) camping gets you nowhere.

As for your "find him and shoot him" once again, this is a joke. No real match is decided on basis of the ability to hide and take pot shots. Even with the aim of a god (or an aimbot) your ability to affect the game vs good players is non existant. Your basicaly a spectator for your team... ie you don't count.

Your also fairly ignorant if you think the problem with the UT sniper was that you can't trace it (hell you can't trace the mini or the ar). The problem with it was the high ROF, and the huge head shot box. The gun was practicaly an IG gun if you had a minimal amount of skill.

Your honestly entirely wrong from a stand point of mid tier up. Perhaps on pubs or low tier your arguements might hold water.

Radiosity
1st Apr 2005, 11:45 AM
hell you can't trace the mini or the ar

You mean apart from all those bright yellow tracer rounds that the mini fires? And the AR is a joke anyway and doesn't need to be traced to it's source.

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 11:48 AM
well, the sniper fires a bright yellow round also, you can see it.

-AEnubis-
1st Apr 2005, 11:54 AM
See, I understand the fact that this game is still played in pubs, despite the level of competition on servers that I play on, and have respect for the fact that it is that way. I don't believe the game should be catered to me because I'm better at it then the average "pub noob" as I'm sure you'd refer to them.

Fact of the matter is the majority of players that play this game aren't that good at it, and to keep an online community they need to think about those people, and balance it some for them too.

Perhaps on pubs or low tier your arguements might hold water.

...pubs are the ocean, you're swimming in lakes.

I know what you mean by bail, but if it's between that, and getting shot while I wait for a switch, I'll drop it thanks :rolleyes:

Parser
1st Apr 2005, 11:57 AM
Pro Bullcrap

Pro Bullcrap

http://www.asup61.dsl.pipex.com/macros/m_toughguy.jpg

Hay guys, don't forget that people like these amazingly talented spotty teenagers own the entire world and that we are their righteous slaves in every respect because they're obviously elite by posting on a PRO FORUM. HURR.

T2A`
1st Apr 2005, 12:04 PM
Ignore him, please. If I'm not mistaken, he's on the same team as Maxtomato, and we all know how that ended up.

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 12:10 PM
@ Aenubis I realise entirely that "my" selective WS off scrims only balance is a drop in the ocean of what makes guns what. However this doesn't change the vailidity of my arguement. The sniper nerfs, do not nerf skilled players, they only nerf noobs (not regular, if you are trying to snipe your pond scum on the skill ladder). What good is a nerf that only hurts the people that suck to such an extent they should get a boost?

If there is one thing I have a gripe with about this game (and the sniper rifle is a great example) it's weapons that are way to idiocyncratic to use and learn. It's not that they are weak, or hard to use (they aren't the entire game is fairly basic and way to easy) it's the that each weapon has such extremes of stupid that it bassicaly boils down to explointing the ever living crap out of something for a win. The current sniper, just isn't a viable option because it can't be exploited. I'm not talking about catering the game to "me and mine" I'm talking about not talent fools not knowing just why the balance is so fubar. Like it or not, it's the players at the top who can fix balance. Over balancing is part of the reason ut2kx is basicaly quake played with nerf guns.

@parser

your silly... the majority of the competitive "talented" players are fairly old gamers that have been at it since doom2. It's the noobs that are the teens.

UnrealGrrl
1st Apr 2005, 12:14 PM
less smoke (theres no need to obscure so much) but add to that an obvious muzzle flash from a distance (like a camera flash) and or laser pointer thingy that could be seen from distance depending on your angle.... (edit) alot of this has to do with the fact that alot of maps are "sniper" influenced". this does not include most pro style or ladder maps which are not designed to be controlled by a sniper type position so much. but there is a huge community in the ut-verse of players that play only these types of maps or this style of play and thats who it should be making a big difference to...


and p.s. if we could all get over the pro vs pub vs skilled vs n00b thing and work towards making the game better for all thatd be great right? the games never gonna be perfect for everyone but original UT appealed to both sides of the coin and it sounds like Epics gonna try to hit closer to that mark this time around, which is very cool too!

Xaero
1st Apr 2005, 12:19 PM
Over balancing is part of the reason ut2kx is basicaly quake played with nerf guns.


That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read....

When is the last time you've even played Quake?

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 12:23 PM
That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read....

When is the last time you've even played Quake?
today...

And 2kx guns don't deal as nearly as much damage per hit

Xaero
1st Apr 2005, 12:28 PM
I get that part, but how in the world does it make "UT2kx basically Quake"?

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 12:31 PM
Because 2kx is closer to quake than ut99 was, mostly because the advantage of new movement makes it largely about movement skills.

Mr.Magnetichead
1st Apr 2005, 12:34 PM
That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read....

When is the last time you've even played Quake?
20 minutes ago.

Sir_Brizz
1st Apr 2005, 12:58 PM
Because 2kx is closer to quake than ut99 was, mostly because the advantage of new movement makes it largely about movement skills.
Um....last time I checked you couldn't dodge jump, wall dodge, double jump, or shield jump in Quake. So yes, the fact that you can run forward, back, strafe, jump, and shoot. It's close to quake!

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 01:05 PM
/shrugs

oh the narrow sighted (noobies are fun)

Here we go. Look quakes movement is dynamic (key word there folks) and the game is largely about how well you master the ability to trick jump yourself around the map.

UT99 had static dull movement, and it had very little to do with how well you did at the game.

2kx is a game based on dynamic movement. In that aspect it's closer to quake that it is to ut99.

Thus quake with nerf guns.

-AEnubis-
1st Apr 2005, 01:14 PM
today...

And 2kx guns don't deal as nearly as much damage per hit

That is a complicated issue, which if the movment is nerfed in the next installment, it should be no more.

I hate the cSR, and honestly, I'm hoping any of this discussion is totally irrelivant anyways. I will say I appreciate the tone of your last post, and I understand where you are coming from (you'll find that the implied name calling, and such won't fly on these forums. Even if post count means nothing of skill in game, is does correlate to ones ability to survive without being banned on a forum ;) ).

The switch away time though, I think is very balanced, where the LtG was not, because I have a very different view on the concept of Hit-scan.

What good is a nerf that only hurts the people that suck to such an extent they should get a boost?

It's a little early for me, but I'm trying to see how that sentence doesn't contradict itself. Maybe you need to slow down, and assess one nerf at a time.

The people that "suck" aren't really getting what should be looked at as a "boost", but some "protection" (though they can be seen as one in the same), by the "traceablility nerfs". Most casual games won't stick to a game if it's too absolutely hard for them. Getting shot, and never knowing where from is one of the more fustrating concepts in any FPS. Hence that nerf is helping newbs, and yes, has no effect on the next teirs up.

The switch away time nerf is only really effecting the upper teirs, because of how big of a deal weapon switching is in this game. Not being able to combo with the cSR is huge, and maybe done a little drastically, especially considering all the other things the did to "balance it." I like the idea of not being able to switch until the weapon in hand is ready to fire again, which is exagerated I think in the cSR, but I must also say I think, in this game, something should be done to the LtG. Whether it be increased switch away time like the cSR, or lessened ammo in the pickup, it's a little too beefy at current IMO. My hit-scan use is either ON, or OFF because of how my look setup is, and when it's on, my peers just don't stand a chance. It shouldn't be that way.

Like it or not, it's the players at the top who can fix balance.

Yes, the players at the top have the experience to sometimes seemingly better assess balance issues, but their opinions are also very biased because of it. Humans in general have a problem being wholely objective, and hence anyone who is that involved in something automatically has one great disavantage in helping achieve that "balance", and that is how said changes can positively, or negatively effect their game. Although, I'm by no means perfect at it, being objective is something I try to do, by ignoring my personal biases. I find my "not playing to win" attitude helps that a lot, it also happens to be why I'm not "a player at the top." What is lacked in experience in many aspects of life, can sometimes be made up for with intelligence.

Honestly, I think it's possible that the next "sniper weapon" won't even be hit-scan, and that it will be an extremely fast moveing, visible projectile, so additional methods to "traceing it" won't be necessary. I can think of no other reason to abandon the LtG, since it can't be made realistically into a projectile (lightning actually does travel that fast).

Removing the minigun and LtG is a bold move, one I could only imagine that is fuled by a greater goal, and hence the removal is subsequent of that goal: Minimizing hit-scan.

On a side note I think Tribes: Vengeance nailed it. The only hitscan weapon in that game has a max of 15 ammo, and each shot completely drains your energy, imobilizing you, and nullifying 1/3 of the weapons you could use other wise. You think the cSR is bad? Not really related, since it is a totally different game, but something to think about: Appreciate what hitscan you have. It could dissapear, and if it does, you won't hear me crying.

PS: Q3A - 3 days ago, and no, it's a totally different game IMO.

oh the narrow sighted (noobies are fun)

about the name calling...

I play quake, and the only movement I've ever even heard about that was complicated or more "dynamic" is a bug in my eyes.

Weapon Propelled Jumping:
Q3A: Yes
UT: Yes
UT2004: Yes

Jump, Strafe, Turn:
Q3A: Yes
UT: Yes
UT2004: Yes

Dodge:
Q3A: No
UT: Yes
UT2004: Yes

Double jump, Dodge jump, Wall kick:
Q3A: No
UT: No
UT2004: Yes

Please, enlighten us, and fill in any gaps I may have left.

Sir_Brizz
1st Apr 2005, 01:16 PM
/shrugs

oh the narrow sighted (noobies are fun)

Here we go. Look quakes movement is dynamic (key word there folks) and the game is largely about how well you master the ability to trick jump yourself around the map.

UT99 had static dull movement, and it had very little to do with how well you did at the game.

2kx is a game based on dynamic movement. In that aspect it's closer to quake that it is to ut99.

Thus quake with nerf guns.
EEEEAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH DYNAMIC AAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH UT = QWAYK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look, you are being very subjective. I knew people in Q3 that could whip your butt repeatedly that NEVER trick jumped. Q3 was a game where trickjumping could help you but not trickjumping would not hurt you.

The only way I would agree with you whatsoever is that in UT2004 you can do more trickjumping than you could in UT. That doesn't make it OMGQWAYKEWTFBBQ!!!!!!

That's like saying "Doom 3 is Half Life 2".

Parser
1st Apr 2005, 01:31 PM
@parser

your silly... the majority of the competitive "talented" players are fairly old gamers that have been at it since doom2. It's the noobs that are the teens.

My silly? I wasn't aware that I was in possession of a "silly".

I think you completely missed my point, which was that certain "pro players" are naive and arrogant enough to call anyone who isn't a "pro player" a "noob", just because those "noobs" don't play the game competetively and religiously but instead play for fun.

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 01:34 PM
Wow, you obviously were never any good at quake. What about single beat, double beat, and half beat strafe jumps to build momentum... or was that beyond you. Lets also not forget, momentum off bounce pads, and plasma climbs.

Back to the sniper. The gun only hurts the noobies because they are the only ones stupid enough to make comments like "zomg it's teh smoke that balances it" and as such, demonstrate how little they know. The decent players just either 1. don't use the gun at all, or 2. only use it in a set situations (ie playing 2 up top on deck17 where all you need is the sniper to gang bang the rest of the map into a lock.... as anybody decent knows 2 top, 1 pit, 1 roamer for the win in part to help remove the nerf on the swap out).

Also the smoking giving you away means nothing, except against noobs. A decent player will just LTG to shock you, and kill you. It won't matter if you knew where he was or not because once the angles are valid, your dead. On the other hand a noob can miss, and screw it up totally. Thus a noob with the sniper is hurt by the fact that he is given away when he misses, the good player just hits you twice in a row (either ltg swap, or 2 snipers). The ballance issues here are beyond horrid. You have one gun that is godly, and one gun that sucks... not good.

As for the LTG, I tend to agree it's not balanced, but I blame that on maping. On maps like goliath, the LTG is extremely abusive and the entire match boils down to "time LTG, then get stacked, and lock it the **** down". on the flip side of it maps like corrugation, or asbestos don't cater to the LTG and it's not nearly as much of a factor.

On tribes V, I agree the game is butter, and hit the weapon balance out of the park in a grand slam... one problem, they used the unreal engine (which is a turd). The unreal engine is plauged by projectile colision problems, and in a game dominated by arial projectiles that leads to problems, the turd of an engine screwed it. Throw in the fact that tribes is made for large player loads, and the UT engine is a hardware hog, and you see what the game has problems (even though I still love it, and play it).

I also wouldn't cry if hit scan vanished, hell I liked the rocket dominance of quakeW, and the in your face frags.

As for you brizz, making comments about who could whip who when you don't know who I am makes you seem desperate to back up a point, which you failed at prior. GG at not mentioning the names of people that can beat a person you don't know... 2ez

For the record aenubis, I'm partly enjoying this, you don't seem as daft as your average pubber ;)

Radiosity
1st Apr 2005, 01:38 PM
those "noobs" don't play the game competetively and religiously but instead play for fun.


Fun?! What is this 'FUN' of which you speak?

Sir_Brizz
1st Apr 2005, 01:41 PM
As for you brizz, making comments about who could whip who when you don't know who I am makes you seem desperate to back up a point, which you failed at prior. GG at not mentioning the names of people that can beat a person you don't know... 2ez
I said you as IN GENERAL people that could kill you before you even saw them.

You clearly didn't play much UT, alot of the "momentum" "speed boosts" were already in UT before they were in UT200X.

Why would I name names? They hardly matter anymore, Quake isn't a much played game anymore (I haven't played it in over 4 years).

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 01:45 PM
I said you as IN GENERAL people that could kill you before you even saw them.

You clearly didn't play much UT, alot of the "momentum" "speed boosts" were already in UT before they were in UT200X.

Why would I name names? They hardly matter anymore, Quake isn't a much played game anymore (I haven't played it in over 4 years).

compare quake numbers to UT numbers on a referance that doesn't count bots (ie not gamelie, err gamespy)... quake3 has double the players of 2kx, quake2 has the same as ut99, and quakeW (not even counted) has more than either of those with it's various mods.

brizz, you should find a cure to aids, your so good with facts.

Either that or you should talk to the ground and grow plants, because the crap you spew contains enough BS to fertilize all of africa.

But then again I guess your not playing it in 4+ years means you know enough to comment on it :lol:

EDIT, and if your gripe in that "new people" thread was about me, here is a clue. If you blatantly bold face LIE, expect people to call you on it. Then if you LIE AGAIN expect people to call you on it again.

Sir_Brizz
1st Apr 2005, 01:55 PM
Oh wow. I refute your point with a fact, you resort to flaming/name calling/general insults to TRY to get your point across.... +1 you win teh intarweb.... :rolleyes:

edit: just saw you idle in h2o's channel. I shouldn't be surprised at your attitude.

Symbolikal
1st Apr 2005, 01:57 PM
1) Stop flaming
2) Stop trying to force your opinions down everybody's throat.
3) If you're so good, come play at FragBU.

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 01:57 PM
You didn't state a fact, you bold faced lied, about something you admit you are not involved with. I called BS because that's what you did. Try not trying to pass of bold faced lies as facts and I will take you seriously.

RaptoR
1st Apr 2005, 01:59 PM
@fresh&minty: consider yourself warned. The BU terms of use ( http://support.beyondunreal.com/faq.php?article=10 ) forbids abusive/insulting posts on the forums.

@Symbolikal + fresh&minty: take your personal feuds elsewhere. We don't tolerate this sort of thing on BuF, so take it somewhere else if you want to keep your posting privelages.

</nazimod>

Nereid
1st Apr 2005, 02:00 PM
What the **** is with all these flames/trolls here recently? :mad:

fresh&minty, this thread (http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=156806) might be a good read for you. Much of this one (http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=124984), although written for OT, applies anywhere else (yes, including here) as well. Read, and think before you post.

Sheesh.

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 02:03 PM
@fresh&minty: consider yourself warned. The BU terms of use ( http://support.beyondunreal.com/faq.php?article=10 ) forbids abusive/insulting posts on the forums.

@Symbolikal + fresh&minty: take your personal feuds elsewhere. We don't tolerate this sort of thing on BuF, so take it somewhere else if you want to keep your posting privelages.

</nazimod>
while I respect that, do you honestly expect people to not slam people that blatantly bs about stuff they admit to know nothing about?

Running a flame free forum is all fine and dandy.

Symbolikal
1st Apr 2005, 02:04 PM
I have no personal feud with fresh&minty, but what I do recognise what I did was wrong. I was also trying to point out the wrongs of f&m.

Sir_Brizz
1st Apr 2005, 02:04 PM
You didn't state a fact, you bold faced lied, about something you admit you are not involved with. I called BS because that's what you did. Try not trying to pass of bold faced lies as facts and I will take you seriously.
I didn't lie about anything, you don't have to be an active part of a community to notice trends.

Nereid
1st Apr 2005, 02:10 PM
while I respect that, do you honestly expect people to not slam people that blatantly bs about stuff they admit to know nothing about?
Do you honestly expect people to not slam people that slam people who do not in fact blatantly bs about stuff that they in fact know something about?

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 02:11 PM
I didn't lie about anything, you don't have to be an active part of a community to notice trends.

claiming the quake series has less players than UT is either 1. a bold faced lie, or 2. sheer stupidity/ignorance, take your pick.

If you are going to make such absurd statements and then follow it up with "I haven't played in 4+ years" realize how entirely asinine that is.

hal
1st Apr 2005, 02:13 PM
Jesus Christ, guys. The game discussion is interesting. Name calling isn't.

I personally couldn't give a crap about a puff of smoke. It's basically useless anyhow unless the person shooting you sucks.

I kind of got used to the LtG in the last couple of years, but I really loved UT's Rifle. Yeah, I guess it was way overpowered, but we're also talking about the new weapon, so we really don't know all of its properties yet.

The puff of smoke might be negligible, or it might be bright orange and as big as a rain cloud. Point is, we really don't know enough to say one way or another.

Sir_Brizz
1st Apr 2005, 02:15 PM
claiming the quake series has less players than UT is either 1. a bold faced lie, or 2. sheer stupidity/ignorance, take your pick.

If you are going to make such absurd statements and then follow it up with "I haven't played in 4+ years" realize how entirely asinine that is.
Considering that there is really no way to know whether bots are being counted or not and csports.net regularly lies about player numbers, I don't think even you can make an educated guess on it.

Amen. :shake:

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 02:21 PM
gamespy has stated that they count bots... several times, even epic fessed up.

there are about 1500 ut players online at peak, and about 3100 quake 3 players...
ut99 is at about 700, roughly the same as quake2.

I leave out Unreal, and quake1, because they aren't really tracked, but both are remotely alive, and I know that quake1 has more active clans than quake3. I'd be willing to guess quake1 creams unreal1.

I'm sure you want me on readonly/ban because I keep calling you out on the BS you post. I was having a decent arguement with aenubis about weapon balance, and I'd like to continue that. However I won't stop pointing out lies, or ignorant statements.

Let me define 2 things.

Lies- you know the truth, and mislead people for your gain

bull****- you don't know squat but just rant.

I charge you with the second.

UnrealGrrl
1st Apr 2005, 02:23 PM
ok, so the latest now is the g00gun/MineLayer/Grenade launcher will give off Green/Red/Purplish puffs of smoke that are visible at a distance?! :eek: i can't take it anymore and i am going to play Unreal 1 until the smoke clears!! :rolleyes:

and worse than the evil childish bickering is the totally offtopicness youse guys have caused :p

Sir_Brizz
1st Apr 2005, 02:26 PM
gamespy has stated that they count bots
Link?
... several times, even epic fessed up.
Link?
there are about 1500 ut players online at peak, and about 3100 quake 3 players...
csports.net stats don't count.
ut99 is at about 700, roughly the same as quake2.
Again.
I'm sure you want me on readonly/ban because I keep calling you out on the BS you post. I was having a decent arguement with aenubis about weapon balance, and I'd like to continue that. However I won't stop pointing out lies, or ignorant statements.
Um, no, because you are breaking rules and conduct that we just don't put up with here.
Lies- you know the truth, and mislead people for your gain

bull****- you don't know squat but just rant.
A walking self-proclaimed dictionary. Woowoo.

carmatic
1st Apr 2005, 02:29 PM
yea111 make it so that the puff of smoke is bright orange + as big as a raincloud

actually im not good enough to comment about this ( i miss players more than i hit them omg) so , i guess this post is Asinine

-AEnubis-
1st Apr 2005, 02:31 PM
The fact that you call BS isn't the issue, the way in which you do it here is what seperates this forum from flame infested forums like ProU, or other forums who end up having to enforce a "warning level system".

Word like assinine, ignorant, and liar are not words we ever thow around in this forum, barring in rare cases of jest, or to concepts, not at people.

Instead of calling somone a liar, link your source, and proove them wrong. Anyone can type anything here, that doesn't make it true. The main thing that seperates this forum from others is maturity. That is how we handle stuff like that here. It's about educating everyone, not simply being right (which trust me, that get's old after a while ;) )

hal
1st Apr 2005, 02:37 PM
ok, so the latest now is the g00gun/MineLayer/Grenade launcher will give off Green/Red/Purplish puffs of smoke that are visible at a distance?! :eek:

April Fools? :(

carmatic
1st Apr 2005, 02:40 PM
like xmp or something? colourful puffs of grenade launchers

-AEnubis-
1st Apr 2005, 02:41 PM
Yeah, hal kinda paraphrased what I was saying earlier, in that it hopefully won't matter, it will be a new and different weapon even if by the same name.

Yeah, it not being exploitable can kinda hurt newbs, but that is something far easier to learn, because it is in you hands. You figure that out first hand. The easiest way to learn "where you're getting shot from" in similar circumstances is second hand, being told, or spectating. Something some people don't have the luxury of doing, or knowing how to do.

Again though, it prolly won't matter.

Plasma climbing is classed under weapon propulsion, as would be team rail/shock pushing, or other fun stuff like that, not just rocket/shield jumping etc.

Wow, you obviously were never any good at quake. What about single beat, double beat, and half beat strafe jumps to build momentum...

No, I didn't even get to the point of finding competative servers in Quake because I am an Unreal Fanboi. I appreciate quake, and don't hate it like other "unreal fanboi's", and still like it as a change of pace, and played it many a LAN. I'm good at it in terms of carry'd over general FPS skills, IE: I did fine on pubs, but no, never really got into the finer points of quake.

I am however familiar with the engine, and if xBeat strafe jumps, refer to the exploitation of how friction is handled with certain timed jumps, and carried momentum, then as I said before, I veiw that as a bug. It's not something Id intended as a "feature of the game", even if they later embraced it. Hence, am not counting that in my assessment of movement from game to game. The same "problem" was experienced in HL (a very similar engine), and patched out.

If it's something other then that, then I'd love to hear about it, a link to a manual, or something, unless my now knowing as much as you has some bearing on how you feel about yourself ;)

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 02:52 PM
I'm roughly talking about the same trick/exploit (depending entirely on how you view it, and I am probably talking about it in a more advanced perspective), and as for half life, it was based on the quake2 engine and as such inherented the trick.

I don't mind sharing knowledge at all, I think it helps.

http://www.trickingq3.com/frames.html

read up, if you have the game instaled you can even run the demos :)

EDIT just saw this now

3) If you're so good, come play at FragBU.

WTF is that, a tournament?, and if so what clans and what rules.

hal
1st Apr 2005, 03:11 PM
FragBU isn't a tournament. It's just a friendly get together game that we do every Friday and Saturday on our Viper server. You can check the weekly thread in the UT2004 forum if you're interested.

By no means is it a "pro" event. In fact, there are a lot of newer players and higher-pinging Euro players alongside our regulars.

I'm not sure what he meant by that. :o

Stilz
1st Apr 2005, 04:22 PM
Hay guys, don't forget that people like these amazingly talented spotty teenagers own the entire world and that we are their righteous slaves in every respect because they're obviously elite by posting on a PRO FORUM. HURR.

If a teenager is 24... i guess im just that.

JaFO
1st Apr 2005, 04:30 PM
Back to the original argument ? Ok ?

// --
Right .. my two euro-cents as a total n00b like some would say.

The sniperrifle-class of weapons are supposed to be used as long range (near) insta-gib weapons. Any other damage-level makes them useless.

They need the extreme slow weapon-switch time and RoF to create the 'oh **** I missed'-feel such a weapon requires. This also would allow anyone catching the sniper from behind to do some damage before he manages to switch/reload. Another advantage is that it removes the sniperrifle from the list of weapons that can be used succesfully at short/medium-ranges. Again this is something an experienced player ought to know already. For anyone else it's a short and bloody lesson in the proper use of weapons.

Also consider the fact that without the slow switch the sniperrifle-class essentially acts like a free scope for any weapon. Something that allows weapons to be accurate at distances far beyond their original design-parameters.

Given the range of this weapon some type of shot-location-indicator is needed so the newbie targets at least know they were hit by a valid weapon instead of someone using cheats.
It won't do anything for the players that know how to play as a sniper.
It will remind the newbie players using this weapon that their target may be aware of their location and they should be considering a retreat (like a real 'sniper' should).

Last but certainly not least :
If the 'goal' of the game is supposed to be 'in-your-face' combat ... then the sniperrifle-class is the first weapon that should be removed, because it is anything but 'in-your-face'.

Symbolikal
1st Apr 2005, 04:30 PM
FragBU isn't a tourney, it's a get together.

JaFO
1st Apr 2005, 04:32 PM
No, it's a party and only cool people are invited ;)

Stilz
1st Apr 2005, 04:35 PM
Back to the original argument ? Ok ?

// --
Right .. my two euro-cents as a total n00b like some would say.

The sniperrifle-class of weapons are supposed to be used as long range (near) insta-gib weapons. Any other damage-level makes them useless.

They need the extreme slow weapon-switch time and RoF to create the 'oh **** I missed'-feel such a weapon requires. This also would allow anyone catching the sniper from behind to do some damage before he manages to switch/reload. Another advantage is that it removes the sniperrifle from the list of weapons that can be used succesfully at short/medium-ranges. Again this is something an experienced player ought to know already. For anyone else it's a short and bloody lesson in the proper use of weapons.

Also consider the fact that without the slow switch the sniperrifle-class essentially acts like a free scope for any weapon. Something that allows weapons to be accurate at distances far beyond their original design-parameters.

Given the range of this weapon some type of shot-location-indicator is needed so the newbie targets at least know they were hit by a valid weapon instead of someone using cheats.
It won't do anything for the players that know how to play as a sniper.
It will remind the newbie players using this weapon that their target may be aware of their location and they should be considering a retreat (like a real 'sniper' should).

Last but certainly not least :
If the 'goal' of the game is supposed to be 'in-your-face' combat ... then the sniperrifle-class is the first weapon that should be removed, because it is anything but 'in-your-face'.

GB2INA

hal
1st Apr 2005, 04:59 PM
GB2INA

We've been over this already in a previous thread. That's not going to fly here.

carmatic
1st Apr 2005, 05:01 PM
yeah i agree with jafo

whats wrong with INA to make you say goodbye?

Jackal
1st Apr 2005, 05:01 PM
damn...what's with all these 2 post-people thinking they know it all?

Ive been thinking the same thing. All these noobs. It's like a noob infestation.

JaFO
1st Apr 2005, 05:11 PM
GB2INA
I'm sorry sir, but English isn't my native language so I don't understand all these abbreviations.
Would you care to explain how that expression is supposed to be an argument ?
Or are you unable to find any decent counter to my arguments and must therefor resort to namecalling & insults ?

Symbolikal
1st Apr 2005, 05:15 PM
GB2INA
Another example of the dim-witted pro. Just because you can mop the floor with a pub doesn't mean you know it all or can force your opinion down the throats of others. I don't know why RO's haven't flown around the place yet. As hal explained, flaming isn't tolerated here.
Getting back to the argument on hand, I think Epic should just leave the LtG in.

carmatic
1st Apr 2005, 06:29 PM
ok ragnar0k (http://forums.beyondunreal.com/member.php?u=46498) has in his description Dangerous with a LtG. NOT LG!!! and its making me confused, i thought LG meant 'lightning gun', so what is 'LtG' ?

Stilz
1st Apr 2005, 06:46 PM
hey buddy, i dont mean to flame, but his points were retarded sorry. im not a pro so dont dub me one. sure im decent at the game, but im not pro by any means.

id like for the lg to stay in, but you know epic is to stubborn and is stuck on their ways. i was rather just saying for the sniper rifle to not have the smoke and for it to do to 70 damage instead of 60 which is what sniper does in 2k4.

JohnDoe641
1st Apr 2005, 08:56 PM
I'm not really defending Stilz, but he could probably face six or seven guys at fragbu at once in a 1 v 6/7 tdm and still win by 30+. If some people here have trouble fragging me, Stilz is like, 12 of me. :D

The whole gb2ina attitude is quite infantile, but that's the attitude of prounrealers. Apparently playing games and being good at them is why they can talk like that. D:

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 09:20 PM
Ive been thinking the same thing. All these noobs. It's like a noob infestation.
Yes... good players concerned about the outcome of a new game must be noobs. I see xmp in your sig, did your quality beta input help that game become the shimmering gem of a huge massive failure it was :lol: Let's all listen your advice because it obviously works.

Just because a person is arguementative doesn't invalidate thier points, on the same note, just because somebody says something in a nice way, doesn't mean they aren't a total idiot.

hal
1st Apr 2005, 09:26 PM
Ive been thinking the same thing. All these noobs. It's like a noob infestation.

That doesn't really add a whole lot to this thread.

Sir_Brizz
1st Apr 2005, 09:39 PM
Yes... good players concerned about the outcome of a new game must be noobs. I see xmp in your sig, did your quality beta input help that game become the shimmering gem of a huge massive failure it was :lol: Let's all listen your advice because it obviously works.
Then show your concern FOR THE GAME and leave the people and their opinions out of it. I see you attempting to mock XMP. Way to go, you can mock a game that is leaps and bounds beyond anything available right now tactically.
Just because a person is arguementative doesn't invalidate thier points, on the same note, just because somebody says something in a nice way, doesn't mean they aren't a total idiot.
People are more likely to listen/side with a nice person than an argumentative person, regardless of how accurate their points are.

fresh&minty
1st Apr 2005, 09:56 PM
Show me where I mocked XMP in there genius? I pointed out a fact (something you seem to be allergic to)that XMP failed. I then took a chance to slam him (as he took a crack at me) for being a beta tester of a game that failed.

At which point, brizz to the rescue with more of his lies/ignorance you mocked xmp. Get a grip.

Or perhaps I am wrong and xmp has thousands of players (like other FREE games ala AA and RTCW) that are online daily playing the crap out of making making it the bestest thing since sliced bread.

As for it being tacticle, wow CTF with vehicles and resources, you don't say... tribes did that so long ago (oh wait more facts). Granted it's better than ONS.

brizz and truth are like oil water.

Xaero
2nd Apr 2005, 01:09 AM
I dunno fresh...you'd seem to fit right in with most of the XMP community.

Olga
2nd Apr 2005, 01:30 AM
I then took a chance to slam him (as he took a crack at me) for being a beta tester of a game that failed.Troll alarm.

If you don't like XMP, fine. If you're going to flame people for liking something you don't then I'd think you deserve a read-only for this forum at least. Be nice people, get back to the flippin topic and stop acting like dicks before the mod-squad get into gear with some punishment.

fresh&minty
2nd Apr 2005, 01:41 AM
Once again, I didn't mock XMP, I mocked a player.
Olga have you been taking lessons in the art of BS from the likes of brizz?

I mocked a player (which you quoted oh silly you) which you take as a game slam (even though you choose to quote a comment by me that specifies that I slammed a player, pure genius).

Also lets go further obi-wan knows-****. where does it state that I dislike xmp? And since you can't prove that (and TBH I like xmp off and on), then how in the hell would I be flaming him for liking something I don't (seriously ed-teller let's have your advanced theoritical stuff here, and save us all the time).

Think mcfly think.

or continue to spout ignorant crap and have the clutch of "hi, I might be spouting unthought out BS from my rectum, but at least said thanks to the toilet after I flushed my crap down it".

Remember kiddies, bold faced lies and slander are ok if you say it nice... but telling the truth doesn't count if you use a naughty word.

-AEnubis-
2nd Apr 2005, 01:49 AM
Maturity is not taking the chance to slam him, even if it is able to be precieved as warranted. You sill seem to miss the point of what conduct is acceptable on these forums.

I'm willing to "discuss" this further, but at current pace, I feel you will follow the same path as MaXmOtO (http://forums.beyondunreal.com/member.php?u=47711). Feel free to read some of his postings of same attitude and try to learn from his mistakes.

Again, use of the word ignorant, even in in-appropriate context, and the fact that you mocked anything, won't fly here. You seem to have a slightly better grip then he (mentioned above) did on what is opinion, and what is fact, but only slightly. I think another thing you need to understand, is simple matters of "majority rules" also don't really apply here as fact. We, understand that sometimes the majotity is wrong, so simply because something is not popular doesn't mean it was a failure. Even your comparison of Tribes: Vengeance and Ut2k4 should reflect that.

Basically, I dont' wanna goto to work one day in the middle of a discusion, and come home to see you banned, as I did with MaX, so please, try to tread lightly.

I, as well, pushed a "rough start" when I got here, but I'm still here because I was able to recognize other peoples points, and differenciate fact from opinion. Unfortunately, those threads got lost in a crash :D, but some old school regs here, may remember :o

fresh&minty
2nd Apr 2005, 02:15 AM
About the tribes thing....

Tribes V, and XMP shared one fatal flaw. Despite the quality of both games, they were developed in a closed beta by gamers that wanted to make their own specific game. Both were good, yet booth lacked the critical ability to work outside of said community. Greate concepts, idiot testers that ruined both games, and thus both have died horrible deaths. The similiarities "omg why don't you play our great game, wait the devs cut us off, wait what they screwed us, omg online petition" are strikingly similar. If this proves anything, it's that "bubble betas with morons = failed game" I don't want the next UT to fall into this pit of suck ass. (hence why I am posting here). I honestly give a damn if the franchises next iteration works or not.

TBBH, the opinions that forum regulars express here smack of the same "bubble stupid" that tanked both those games.

So let me make a point on topic....

If you think the puff o noob, hurts the sniper, your beyond help. The problem with the sniper in 2kx is that it's idiotic in it's set implimentation. Weapon balance (or in the case of ut99 ie spam face) over balance makes a game playable, and fun. Also with the advancement of cyber sports a game must get major events in order to work. Hell painkiller was a turd and ended up fine, doom3 was a gem and got owned by lack of events. 2k4 was one of the best games of the year, but is off and on depending on the level of top events for it (or minor stuff like the gameamp stuff, or draft events ala mlut).

These problems need to be looked at NOW, and fixed. Bold faced lies, and BS don't help it, and even if said politely lead to a game that stands a large chance of massively failing and taking a second seat to quake4 as the only sci-fi fps of choice.

-AEnubis-
2nd Apr 2005, 03:07 AM
I understand what you are saying, and agree that this game should second as something that can be played at big events, and competitively, so that it's gets said following. It is important in the long run for cyber sports. That though, will always be second in the eyes of epic, because they really don't make the game for fame, or money, or what have you.

Their first goal, is what they feel is a fun game to play, and even though, that can be precieved as what will sell, I feel Epic does try to retain the role of true artists. Despite the fact that they do seem to read, and process community ideas and requests, they aren't quick to do things that are counter productive, even if it is in the majority. They do seem to do a good job of understanding balance, and not just "doing what the community says", and thus far they community (as a majority) usually comes around (just reference many minigun debates through UT2k3, and early 2k4 to see what I mean).

Basically, no matter how abnoxious you are in forums, it won't matter, Epic is still to assess things quite objectively, and test them out whithout our knowledge to the point where, for you, getting banned from a forum or two really isn't worth it. Even when they do side with the majority, they usually do it in a way that isn't to the extreme that the majority thought was needed, and yet, they eventually see how it was wise that they didn't.

On a side note, I've downloaded a couple demos, and am in the process of trying to watch them, but I'm relatively intoxicated right now, so going is a bit slow. I'm not as familiar with Q3A as I am with Uengine, as previously stated. As well, I have the entire weekend off with plans of celebrating a friends 21st, and havig a LAN at the house. So, no garuntees on how soon I get them reviewed, and relay my opinion of that.

Basically, don't think epic is impressionable, like some little kid. You don't need to debate that strong for them, or in hopes to influence them. Really, you can only hope to subtlely give them ideas. Maturity of your presentation will make a difference though ;)

Symbolikal
2nd Apr 2005, 03:33 AM
The only part I disagree with f&m on is that only forum regulars talk smack on here. It isn't smack, it's their opinion, and if it's about physics and weapons in a game, that can't really be seen from multiple viewpoints nor as an opinion. Why don't we ask the Uscripters about this kind of thing? This is the kind of thing they have to modify, subclass, and in some cases, replace for their coding efforts to work. Epic betatest within their establishment, heck, they had a bloody dev team playing each map everyday for months on end before they released.

Tournament0
2nd Apr 2005, 04:20 AM
I voted no. Why would you want a puff of smoke?
:nag:

-AEnubis-
2nd Apr 2005, 04:29 AM
Read some of it, watched a demo I couldn't duplicate, and tried some of it, and it definately feels exploitive.

Embraced or not, I don't feel for arguement sake it can be used as evidence for how quakes intended movement system is any more dymanic then any other games of it's genre. It's comperable to boost jumping, except that ws much easier to figure out. Regarless, even if we agree to disagree, it has little to do with the subject at hand. Honestly, this as been stopped from veering in so many directions, I wouldn't know what the original subject was if I couldn't go back and read post 1.

So I re-itterate, I don't tink a puff of smoke will be in any way necessary, because the new sniper variant will be a whole new beast, without attributes of previous sniper weapons that may cause epic to think it's necessary. The happiness I will exude if the new sniper weapon is not hit-scan will be unparralelled, and I will buy 2 copy's of this game just to say I did, case closed.

JaFO
2nd Apr 2005, 08:02 AM
hey buddy, i dont mean to flame, but his points were retarded sorry.

Care to explain what was retarded ?
Or is it that they're true and you've got nothing to counter except shouting 'it is retarded' ?


id like for the lg to stay in, but you know epic is to stubborn and is stuck on their ways.
Epic have been anything but 'stuck' on their ways as they at least dared to add new stuff to their game.
And as for being stubborn ... I consider that an advantage. It means I can depend on them to not change the game to suit the flavour of the day.
Besides : the game can be modded, so if the damage/RoF of a weapon isn't 'perfect' it only takes a few minutes to adjust.


i was rather just saying for the sniper rifle to not have the smoke and for it to do to 70 damage instead of 60 which is what sniper does in 2k4.
Given that health still defaults to 100 it won't matter whether it's '60' or '70' as both result in a sniper needing 2 shots for a kill on an unarmoured target.
Never mind that as before any newbie coder can solve the 'problem', but real players just adapt.

Sir_Brizz
2nd Apr 2005, 10:16 AM
I see xmp in your sig, did your quality beta input help that game become the shimmering gem of a huge massive failure it was Let's all listen your advice because it obviously works.
Despite your ingenius attacks on the credibility of others ( :rolleyes: ), this is more than an attack on a person. You are blaming the success of a game on a group of people that had nothing to do with it, based on information you know nothing about. Way to go! :tup: :shake:

RaptoR
2nd Apr 2005, 10:37 AM
Let's just put this thread out of its misery shall we?

I suggest you all take a good look at this thread (http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=156811) before posting again.