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ArcadiaVincennes
11th Mar 2005, 05:55 PM
I was shocked this week when I checked my review request list and found a review request for DM-Deck16-ultamegareeeedemerme.

Reviewing a map such as that is a waste of my time, and the time of the people who read the review. Whoever requested the review may be chuckling softly to themselves but I am not amused. The author intended the map as a joke so I treated the review as a joke. I hope, despite the comments posted to him on his map page, that he endeavors to continue mapping and I look forward to a serious map attempt by him.

There are maps that get posted here that don't really need a review. I reviewed the Wolf3D map because I was asked to. In my opinion, that map did not need a review. Th author made that map as a self-fulfilling project and posted it so others could take a trip down memory lane. He did not need to know how good his texturing was, how good his botpathing was, if he sert the door triggers right, if he zoned it properly. He posted it because he could share something he made with the community. And that really what we're all here for isn't it?

DM-Deck16-ultamegareeeedemerme was 99% retail and 1% custom. How can I score the author on his work when I only had 1% to work with?

In my opinion, a review is not a review of a map. It is an attempt to constructively critisize an author's artistic vision, their skills with the Unreal Editor, sometimes their skills third-party programs like Photshop or Maya/3DSMax, and how how they blends all of it together to produce something fun and, hopefully, beautiful.

How do you expect me to do that for DM-Deck16-ultamegareeeedemerme?
I could do it for the Wolf3D map so I did but with some self-imposed restrictions.

So please - whoever asked me to review DM-Deck16-ultamegareeeedemerme - please don't do that again. You wasted 1/2 hour of my life that I cannot get back and I am a little resentful of that. Sometimes, you can let the comments on the map page speak for themselves.

Xiphon
11th Mar 2005, 07:09 PM
You know, I've looked through the database more than once and your right. I've seen so many maps that are really nothing but the original map with a vehicle in it or a extra weapon. The stupid part about it is, the people who make these maps demand reviews (and eventually get them) when a reviewer's time would much better be spent reviewing something worthwhile. I noticed a lot of other mappers using reviews as a way to settle arguments (look at DM-dimentia... it's one i made, and the arguments just never ended untill Arcadia reviewed it. I was glad when they finally stopped bickering about why the map is the way it is)

If there was a way to screen all this stuff, that would nice, cause there's just to many people that do this stuff here at Nali City, and just about everywhere else...

Manticore
11th Mar 2005, 08:00 PM
I was shocked this week when I checked my review request list and found a review request for DM-Deck16-ultamegareeeedemerme.
Quite frankly I don't think you should be entirely shocked considering some of the behaviour around here....
Whoever requested the review may be chuckling softly to themselves but I am not amused. The author intended the map as a joke so I treated the review as a joke.
...exactly and it's incredible how often people miss the point around here (and I'm not referring to the threadstarter)........
Sometimes, you can let the comments on the map page speak for themselves.
....I couldn't agree more.

Kantham
11th Mar 2005, 08:33 PM
I agree , DM-Deck16-ultamegareeeedemerme was a joke or something , the 'guy' in sort of , might be around 11 yrs old .

There is not a way to remove a request from the review list? I am sure it's the kiddy author himself that requested it , or,Let's just hope Ice-dancer will not review it.

DM-Deck16-ultamegareeeedemerme was 99% retail and 1% custom. How can I score the author on his work when I only had 1% to work with?

Tooooo much of these.

Twrecks
11th Mar 2005, 09:14 PM
Reviewing bad maps is a good way to vent, or just have fun with it. About half of my old reviews were 0-3 score POS maps. For some reason, Luquado deleted all the 0-3 reviews and the associated maps from the database. Unfortunately the maps were added back in WITHOUT the reviews/scores. So some got re-reviewed and commented on. A huge waste of time just to somehow "improve Nali's image".
However, if you think about it, without the 0-3 scores, NC's average review score becomes higher and it looks like we over-rate maps. Which is exactly what happened. And that didn't help our image either.
Oh-Well

ArcadiaVincennes
11th Mar 2005, 09:24 PM
I realize now I actually forgot the most important part of my diatribe above...

People - please think twice before requesting a review!

There. I'm done. Move along, move along....

MassChAoS
12th Mar 2005, 05:52 AM
This map has invoked my wrath. If you find any other maps that are undeserving of reviews or comments, the admins know and they can make it so it will never be reviewed or commented on.

Hourences
12th Mar 2005, 05:55 AM
You dont have to review a map if someone requested it to you, you can simply deny the request if you have no interest in the map or whatever
Only review what you like or what you think deserves a review :)
When I was still reviewing I occasionally checked all the comments the author made on NC and if he appeared to flame a lot or being ungratefull I simply didnt review his map

ArcadiaVincennes
12th Mar 2005, 06:15 AM
Thanks you guys.

I am aware that I can turn down reviews and I almost excercised this right with the latest one.

But I really just wanted to appeal to the community here to be a little more thoughtful when putting a request in our bin.

I went on a little rant instead of doing what I actually intended to which was just to encourage people here to be a little more thoughful befroe pressing the request review button.

quillion
12th Mar 2005, 11:01 AM
Well, this is news to me, i didnt think staff took notice of the 'request a review' thing:P Anyhoo, just review stuff that is worth it and not this sort of
'beep'.

Manticore
12th Mar 2005, 04:02 PM
When I was still reviewing I occasionally checked all the comments the author made on NC and if he appeared to flame a lot or being ungratefull I simply didnt review his map
That's what I call a sensible approach! :tup:

Kantham
12th Mar 2005, 04:46 PM
It (http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com/view_user.php?uid=10735) explain alot about the map ......

ReD_Fist
13th Mar 2005, 10:52 PM
Reviewing bad maps is a good way to vent, or just have fun with it. About half of my old reviews were 0-3 score POS maps. For some reason, Luquado deleted all the 0-3 reviews and the associated maps from the database. Unfortunately the maps were added back in WITHOUT the reviews/scores. So some got re-reviewed and commented on. A huge waste of time just to somehow "improve Nali's image".
However, if you think about it, without the 0-3 scores, NC's average review score becomes higher and it looks like we over-rate maps. Which is exactly what happened. And that didn't help our image either.
Oh-Well


Aagh perfect example

Wich proves that "reviews" done by "the Site" should be above average maps.
Also the lesser are not left out because of the regular user comments.

Another words there should bee maps that curl your hair back on the front page ,new ones every time.
(not to mention this would bring alot of the old players back and mappers )
Givem somthing (the high end mappers) a place to drop there maps too,use a checkbox while uploading to make non commentable.

Then have links to send people to a different section to "vent" from the user comments being available (like we all like to do for a terrible map) but hey no one said they had upload that mofo either !.


Just so we get this straight,I would also vote for some funky maps,cause each level has somthing to offer in it's own way,and one shouldn't be to quick to wright Em off.
.................................................................................................... ....

ReD_Fist
13th Mar 2005, 11:12 PM
Thanks you guys.

I am aware that I can turn down reviews and I almost excercised this right with the latest one.

But I really just wanted to appeal to the community here to be a little more thoughtful when putting a request in our bin.

I went on a little rant instead of doing what I actually intended to which was just to encourage people here to be a little more thoughful befroe pressing the request review button.


Nah ,Rant? It's how things get done,and you bring up the issues that prolly can be solved.

Another thing that map of the month there shouldd gets its glory for 2 weeks max a month is too long.......

Xiphon
13th Mar 2005, 11:40 PM
You know, you HAVE to vent sometime, or you can go into these fits where you just snap on somebody, I know I'm getting close to that point...

people will argue and say your being ungratefull or your being a jerk or something, but if you're nice to everyone, they walk all over you forever. (Oh, It's Xiphon, he can work my shift today... "oh, you going to have to work an extra 3 hours today weather you like it or not...) sorry, i know I'm ranting now...

Anyway, I to was thinking about that map of the month thing. Would it be possible to redisign the site a little to have more than one? like, the top 5 for this month or this week or something? it would catch people's eyes a little more

Kantham
13th Mar 2005, 11:53 PM
The more you map , the more you become great ,

But , sometimes , ppl will not admire your effort and give you low scores.

Welcome on nalicity , heh.

Mister_Prophet
13th Mar 2005, 11:54 PM
It's a shame I didn't review it. It would have looked a little like this:

http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com/map_hub.php?mid=7115

I've been meaning to incorporate more of my award winning artwork in my reviews.

ReD_Fist
13th Mar 2005, 11:58 PM
Good Point !

Sounds good to me too.

4 to 8 maps ,max, per month.I'd say (but better ones only)

Hourences
14th Mar 2005, 10:51 AM
We already have a hotlist...which is exactly that, a top 5-8-10-whatever of the last month.
A month is not long at all and its the regular way to go, most review and community sites have it. No site has a "map of the two week". MOTTW...

ReD_Fist
14th Mar 2005, 11:42 AM
Map of the 2 week LoL

XepptizZ
14th Mar 2005, 01:41 PM
I'll just have to agree with arcadia. Although I believe some things shouldn't even be shared, but there's no real map from what you can truely say, "that shouldn't be here!".

I remember an awesome map with very skilled techniques wich was left unreviewed, maybe i can resurrect it if it's not reviewed yet. I was planning on reviewing it myselfe when ever I'd want to become a reviewer, but mapping seems to be more fun and more time consuming.

happydeadguy
16th Mar 2005, 08:27 PM
I agree , DM-Deck16-ultamegareeeedemerme was a joke or something , the 'guy' in sort of , might be around 11 yrs old .


Actually (i made the map) i'm 13 and I am serious!

Xiphon
16th Mar 2005, 11:37 PM
Uh, seiriously, how could you make a map like that sierious?

happydeadguy
17th Mar 2005, 07:22 PM
I'm gay... :rolleyes:

XepptizZ
17th Mar 2005, 07:28 PM
I find that very pathetic and very immature, but whatever.

It's like

I'm a gay NooB wannabe mapper...

I read somewhere you meanted as a joke, weird to get mad over a joke. Anyways, I hope you get better and go on with mappin.

Kantham
17th Mar 2005, 08:27 PM
Hi , my name is Andrei , and im 13 , i want to make friendz but i suck at everything , so i just do stupid remarks and upload somme stupid sh!ts
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
EDIT:
just try to ban me... I'll just create a new user acount under a diffrent name...

http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com/map_hub.php?mid=8263

Manticore
18th Mar 2005, 12:59 AM
1.3 is a difficult age..... :o

Symbolikal
18th Mar 2005, 05:18 AM
I'm the same age and we aren't all immature. Most of us are, but the few of us that aren't, are very nice people. Can't we just do what Luquado did again? Or a Newgrounds system type thing where you can vote for content to be removed, and say for example, something (like that piece of edited crap) got five delete votes, it would be deleted from the site. There would be save votes to help save a map if it (the system) was getting abused, and would remove one delete vote.

XepptizZ
18th Mar 2005, 09:07 AM
Heh, I never said that it was age related Symbolikal. The bad score system system can easeli be corrupted by making various accounts. It doesn't sound like a good thing to me, but we definitly could use such a system.

Hourences
18th Mar 2005, 02:51 PM
You cant do that, people will abuse the system and it might end up in a popularity contest and mapping is not about that. Nor can you just delete all maps that suck, its bound to give lots of flaming, crap, frustration, discussions etc. Where do you draw the line ? What type of level would be good enough to stay and what bad enough to go ? What with unreviewed maps ? Why do those maps deserve to stay while possibly slightly better yet reviewed maps are deleted ? Etc
Everyone can upload their level and it should stay like that

Kantham
18th Mar 2005, 03:20 PM
I still think that all maps that are uploaded to NC3 with just 2 new things in it or VCTF conversion should be totaly removed . Mapping never end , we all got ideas , we all need to do them , and never take maps that are already done.

Manticore
18th Mar 2005, 05:43 PM
You cant do that, people will abuse the system and it might end up in a popularity contest and mapping is not about that. Nor can you just delete all maps that suck, its bound to give lots of flaming, crap, frustration, discussions etc. Where do you draw the line ? What type of level would be good enough to stay and what bad enough to go ? What with unreviewed maps ? Why do those maps deserve to stay while possibly slightly better yet reviewed maps are deleted ? Etc
Everyone can upload their level and it should stay like that
I still think the idea of blocking reviews on trolling mappers is the best way to go....:tup:

....and continuing to block user comments in those situations so that their dumb friends can't encourage them. Usually it all ends up in lot of counter-troll actions and then the usual battle-of-the-flambes....

ArcadiaVincennes
22nd Mar 2005, 06:59 PM
Thank you to whomever did the dissappearing trick. I appreciate it.

I was thinking... what do you guys think about this...

If I pick a map to review, and it ends up being a 3 or less, how about I do not review it, remove it from the review queue, and post a comment saying the map was less than a three and there is no review with maybe a detail or two?

This would prevent time wasted on a bad map, quicker review queue reduction, the author still gets some form of input, and that would be that.

Yay/Nay?

What do ya'll think?

Manticore
22nd Mar 2005, 08:25 PM
.............the author still gets some form of input, and that would be that.
Considering how sensitive some mappers are about comments from users (and I'm not talking about the Hourences incident; rather some less well known part-timers) I don't know if this will be received very well coming from reviewers.

You may end up with a situation where you have to provide a suicide watch for mappers and/or get someone else to go out and start your car for you in the mornings.

People haven't been very good around here at times about receiving constructive criticism or people expounding their opinions. Differences of opinion around here seem to end up in "la guerre de flambe".

It may be more relevent to hear what other reviewers think......... because that's just my two cents worth and I'm not a reviewer.

Nahand
23rd Mar 2005, 06:01 AM
... it's tricky Arcadia. On one side, all content should be reviewed so that anybody downloading knows what its getting, for other, i agree with the no-waste-time-on-crap. The mid-value seems to be the answer (like most of the times). Sometimes, maps are so ****ty they deserve nothing but the "trash-can-review"; on the other end, there's those 3 or less scored maps that somewhat show that the mapper is trying to map and improving would come with time, and for these last, a [not-benevolent but] truefully small review would do the trick...

... don't go for schemes, review *each* map accordingly...

ArcadiaVincennes
23rd Mar 2005, 08:56 AM
You both have good points - it's that tricky middle ground I was trying to reach. I'll take your suggestions into account when I review. Thanks for the thoughts.

Manticore
23rd Mar 2005, 04:20 PM
I suppose it comes down to what's fair. Some mappers may genuinely want their stuff reviewed (even though the map has the potential of being good, bad or indifferent). These people will usually take a negative review or comment on the chin; at least this shows some maturity.

Some mappers just aren't going to accept anything which isn't a glowing review (even though the map has the potential of being good, bad or indifferent). This is a pretty unhealthy attitude for anyone to have if their intention is to put stuff into the public domain because there is always the potential for someone to not like your work and it really doesn't take into account the fact that opinions will vary.

And then you have the trolling spam-mappers who really deserve to be sidelined somehow as long as you can be assured that this will help to curb their trolling behaviour.

Defeat
3rd Apr 2005, 04:50 AM
Some people like constructive criticism, like me for example. I try to give other some fair criticism too, I don't flame people if they do 1 thing wrong.

Kantham
3rd Apr 2005, 08:20 AM
Yo , Welcome to nalicity Defeat (http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com/view_author.php?aid=2815) , enjoy your stay , and i hope i could download some of your good work someday.

:[lol]:Squid75
26th Apr 2005, 12:50 PM
Some people like constructive criticism, like me for example. I try to give other some fair criticism too, I don't flame people if they do 1 thing wrong.

I agree. (BTW first time posting). I do have a question about having a map reviewed. Should I select a specific reviewer to review my map or does "any" actually work. I have requested a review of my maps, but never have I recieved one. Is this because my maps are a waste of time? I could really use the critisism. I know I map for snipers, but I don't think that just because they are for snipers, they are shuned for that reason. There are many sniper servers and pleanty of gamers that play this style. In my opinion, snipers actually spend more time looking at geometry, specially at long distance, and truelly can apretiate bigger maps, when done correctly.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanx for reading
Mike
:[lol]:Squid75

W0RF
26th Apr 2005, 01:29 PM
I'm probably the last one to talk, since my only published map is itself a remake, and I was silly enough to ask that they take a look at it when they have a spare moment.

But at least (here comes the moral high ground) I actually did a remake. I kept the general layout but migrated the gameplay space from UT to UT2004, did all-new weapon placement, kept some of the (lame) posters and added my own (lame) posters... it hearkens to the original, which is not the same thing as TAKING A RETAIL MAP, CHANGING ONE WEAPON, ADDING YOUR CLAN LOGO AND SUBMITTING IT AS A WHOLE NEW MAP.

I honestly think any map that is just a remake with green water instead of blue, or with a hidden redeemer room, should not be reviewed under any circumstances. I would even recommend turning off comments. I WOULD suggest removing it from the database altogether but if some clan of 12yos want to spread their pr0 l33t map around to each other I guess it wouldn't be fair.

Of course, the first time someone decides that no one should submit remakes, I find myself on the wrong side of a rant like that, so again, I don't know if I'm the one to speak out on this.

I'm not really concerned about crap maps one way or the other, but imo the world doesn't need 347 Deck 16s that are virtually indistinguishable one from the other. In fact, in a monkeys-with-typewriters scenario, it's possible that two different people may have made the same dumb changes to the same recycled map and they're both on NC3. Trippy...

:[lol]:Squid75
26th Apr 2005, 01:33 PM
Mine are originals......I don't do remakes

W0RF
26th Apr 2005, 01:50 PM
I was speaking to the original topic of the thread, not to your maps specifically.

:edit: btw I only see 2 maps here attributed to you, and one of them was just sent in like a month ago. I have a feeling their backlog goes farther back than that.

Icedancer
26th Apr 2005, 04:06 PM
if you actually select a reviewer, it will probably work better, if it gets put in a reviewers queue, he is more likely to do it, rather than if its just floating around in the general queue, i havn't been reviewing much recently, my fault, i know, and i'm sorry for this, i will do some soon, arcadia is probably the best person to request it from, hes active, writes good reviews, knows what hes talking about, and is overally cool :)

Ice

Manticore
26th Apr 2005, 04:32 PM
:Squid75']I know I map for snipers, but I don't think that just because they are for snipers, they are shuned for that reason. There are many sniper servers and pleanty of gamers that play this style. In my opinion, snipers actually spend more time looking at geometry, specially at long distance, and truelly can apretiate bigger maps, when done correctly.:[lol]:Squid75
Hi, welcome etc. I'm not a reviewer, I'm just a visitor to this site like every other user; but I like sniper maps. If you feel like posting some links to the submissions I'd have a look at them...... (unless I already have).

miguelsilveira
27th Apr 2005, 08:11 AM
if i was admin on the site i wouldnt ban you,... simply ignore and hoping someday you grow up...

And i must agree with ArcadiaVincennes, rippin' off other ppls maps without changing completly the theme or add a few custom content sucks big time...

ArcadiaVincennes
27th Apr 2005, 08:57 AM
Good on ya Worf - and I think that in addition to your point about the 347 Deck maps doubly goes for requesting reviews of all of them. :lol:

And Icedancer - thanks for the kind words. It's always nice to come across an un-looked-for compliment.

hostile
17th May 2006, 04:16 PM
What if NC were to loose the comments altogether, or maybe do something like UP and start a thread on each map to comment on.
Have the option for the mapper to block reviews. Have a do not review these maps list only the mapper or NC admen/reviewer can put a map on this list. If a reviewer does not want to review it then go to the map thread and tell them why you are not going to. Then put it on the do not review this map list with a brief comment on the list why. The only why to get a map off this list is to fix some of the problems, and plead with MassChaos or a reviewer.
Keep banning the people that abuse there privileges. They will run out of e-mails eventually or get tired of trying. Or maybe do nothing. Besides we all know who they are, like Happydeadguy, mutantX, arrowz, or whatever the f**k his name is. Most people don't listen to them. I myself read all the comments and average them to give me the big picture. Cool map will not do it for me! I don't DL any maps without a SS unless it was imported from NC2, then I rely on the comments or reviews to help me decide to DL or not. Maybe put maps without a SS or a stupid SS that does not show the map on the do not review this map page, or delete it altogether until it meets NC standards.
That said I would like to ask, and I'm not talking about the joke maps but why people are so hard on the mappers that are not master mappers? They act as if this is a ownage site. Maybe the problem is that NC is in a gray area, not ownage and not crap maps, but somewhere in the middle. These are just some thoughts, ideas and may be way off base. What do you think?
I think there should be a definition of what your looking for. If you all want ownage maps then say so. If not then all review requests should be considered serious as most new mappers are ambitious and think they are doing well, they are in awe that they can make a map.They need help/guidance. Even a little aggravating punk may end up a master mapper one day, this is good for us all. No?
What if everyone told Hourences his first maps are s**t and should not ever map? We wouldn't have his masterpieces now if he listened. (even here people will disagree that Hourences maps are masterpieces) It's the diversity that keeps a site fresh, because we all do not think alike.

ReD_Fist
17th May 2006, 08:24 PM
The other websites should be like nalicity when it comes to comments, forums are boring ,nobody sees it, and I hate email notification.
If a noob mapper uploads a crappy map, sure there will be ridicule, and hopefully better or helpfull or guided coments.
Lets say a flabby guy enters a muscle contest,question
1 should he be ready for ridicule?
2 should he get praise or guidance?
3 should he have the responsibility to know he is putting himself out in front of the public for the world to see and think he's gonna come in anything but the bottom looser.?

Comment section is fine,screenshots should be of the maps play area,reviews should stick to maps wich are good to better, not waste time on reviewing a cube.