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View Full Version : Noob vs vet...Balance...Respect


PhatAzz
17th Dec 2004, 10:56 PM
I will define the above terms:

Noob - u2xmp naive players or u2xmp less than 1 month.

Vet - u2xmp play for more than 1 month.

Now, I want you to imagine you are a noob, if you are a noob, then just be yourself. If you were a noob, would you notice that balance was off?

Honestly? If you came into the game without u2xmp to compare to, could you HONESTLY say balance was off? If everyone was a noob?

Well, tell you what...we are all noobs to utxmp, we keep on comparing everything to u2xmp, but u2xmp != utxmp.

People are getting used to the game...people are adapting...things will be tweaked...give it time...

You will find the new jumps, different movement strategies, different dodge hop combos...you will learn to work differently...

We all talk about balance as if we are all experts, but the only experts are those who have the fine calculations and have tailored the game accorting to various equations of damage and what not...Obviously, we don't have access to this.

So post your observations, be constructive, and stop disrespecting. FMI will read and process your thoughts, but I don't think you help too much by saying oh...make it like u2xmp...too many things are different to do that...just work to make it a better game.

Everyone is afraid of change - but we must adapt or the game dies and takes all of the community with it...

Xaero
17th Dec 2004, 11:19 PM
While utxmp should strive close to be accurate port, what PhatAzz has said is the truth. I personally don't want to play the same buggy game I have been before. Some changes are necessary, and as long as the basic foundation is there, all thats left is room for improvement.

SwiftPaladin
18th Dec 2004, 12:25 AM
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

(gj on fixing the darn bugs though :))

Tenacity
18th Dec 2004, 12:43 AM
Ok that's it couldn't let this one slide... omg yes the balance is off ...you have to be an idiot to play anything but a Gunner. Techs can't even come close to keeping up with them in speed or in any other way.

Admittedly I am an Idiot because I keep trying to play tech and I keep getting owned by gunners. There is just simply no way that a tech or ranger can compete with the new uber elite super powerful speedy nearly invincible gunner ....he completely dominates the game now.

And the Raptor is way to tough I can boost all over the place and run into walls like crazy and I barely lose any health.

The one weapon that gave the tech a fighting chance is fairly nerfed now and that is the alt shotty. I have heard similar things about the rangers weapons. btw where is the thread talking about the nerfed gunner :con: :shake:

Look I am so happy to see this game and I very much appreciate all the work that has been done. But I am not going to act like it is ok ...it is not ok it needs work and I think most ppl know that and that is why it is 'BETA'

I am not expecting it to be exactly like u2xmp, but I am impressed with how close it has come to u2xmp. FMI has done a great job but c'mon it needs to be tweaked.

I want to make it clear that I am very very happy with the the progress so far :notworthy: FMI rules :rockon: and I am looking forward to seeing the continued work to clear out the bugs and tweak the balance of the classes and the vehicles. :cheers:


If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
....

ahem :::cough::: :::cough::: It's broken :rolleyes: can I hear everyone say 'BETA' Ok all together now repaet after me 'BETA' ;) very good .... a little slower this time ' Beeeeeeettaaaaaaa ' that's 2 syllables 'bay tah' beta got it 'BETA' :mwink:

SwiftPaladin
18th Dec 2004, 12:55 AM
Oh no, I was talking about the many (experimental?) changes done while porting the game to a new engine--some that imo should have stayed the same as XMP :)

Tenacity
18th Dec 2004, 12:59 AM
Oh no, I was talking about the many (experimental?) changes done while porting the game to a new engine--some that imo should have stayed the same as XMP :)


Ah ok my bad ....
I thought you were agreeing that utxmp isn't so bad right now. So I must now clarify and say that I agree u2xmp wasn't broken as far as balance and gameplay so I think it should remain the same as much as possible. <----did I get that right. ;) :lol:

MurderousPandaa
18th Dec 2004, 01:09 AM
wrong.

SwiftPaladin
18th Dec 2004, 01:16 AM
Affirmative!
Keywords are "as much as possible," meaning (well, to me anyway :)) "as much as the ut2k4 engine allows it. Particle system, for example, is a long shot; but weapon settings, another example, can be tweaked as far as I know. I think a straight forward answer to what can and cannot be modified can save lots of BUF HD space :) (I'm still wondering if the 'hovering' before you land after a dodge is because of the engine or not)

Xaero
18th Dec 2004, 03:00 AM
Ok that's it couldn't let this one slide... omg yes the balance is off ...you have to be an idiot to play anything but a Gunner. Techs can't even come close to keeping up with them in speed or in any other way.

Admittedly I am an Idiot because I keep trying to play tech and I keep getting owned by gunners. There is just simply no way that a tech or ranger can compete with the new uber elite super powerful speedy nearly invincible gunner ....he completely dominates the game now.


I couldnt pass this one up either. All Tech, All the time. :D

Actually...most of the top scores are tech...kinda makes you wonder about the "uber leet gunner". Yes its overpowered, but not as much as say.

PhatAzz
18th Dec 2004, 08:03 AM
omg yes the balance is off ...you have to be an idiot to play anything but a Gunner.

Well - must be a lot of idiots in the game. Almost all the games that I play have close ratios of classes. Now, if you compare to u2xmp, you are and will get owned by a gunner...but really are you noticing it more now because now it's better than before? And now that it's better than before, other vets play it more often, most of the times those vets are good or have been good with gunner in the past. So you'll get owned...now...really, people play gunner to pwn people, not to hack or steal arts as much. I'm sure if you scrimmed a good clan, vd, de, nbk etc, everyone would not play gunner. So are you telling me everyone is an idiot? Smoke on dude.


Admittedly I am an Idiot because I keep trying to play tech and I keep getting owned by gunners.


No comment. ^^

There is just simply no way that a tech or ranger can compete with the new uber elite super powerful speedy nearly invincible gunner ....he completely dominates the game now.

Perhaps as a tech, you aren't supposed to pwn at dueling so much? Read above. And no, the gunner doesn't completely dominate the game. A lot of DE play tech and it still rules points easily - like Xaero says. Oh btw, it's time to relearn your classes as I have been owned by some rangers repeatedly who have been playing - drunken in particular.


And the Raptor is way to tough I can boost all over the place and run into walls like crazy and I barely lose any health.

It's a beta.


The one weapon that gave the tech a fighting chance is fairly nerfed now and that is the alt shotty.

A lot of people say damage is about the game in regards to the shotty's. You're just not used to killing someone across the field with your shotty. I get one hit killed all the time with alt shotty in utxmp.


But I am not going to act like it is ok ...it is not ok it needs work and I think most ppl know that and that is why it is 'BETA'


I'm not saying it's okay. I'm saying be constructive.


I am not expecting it to be exactly like u2xmp, but I am impressed with how close it has come to u2xmp. FMI has done a great job but c'mon it needs to be tweaked.


I think it's fine to compare the two, but really passing judgement on things that have changed and making u2xmp the gold standard is wrong. The game type is converted with a lot of the basics, but the finer points will be unique to themselves.

I am looking forward to seeing the continued work to clear out the bugs and tweak the balance of the classes and the vehicles. :cheers:


Same here. I think so many people expect to own gunner like they did in u2xmp. Well, heads up people -> gunner has been upgraded to where it should always have been. Granted the primary grenade launcher has been considered overpowered by a lot of people, once that is fixed/tweaked, the other classes are fixed/tweaked...the balance will be fine. And if it's not, we wouldn't know until a month or so test running the system.

I think a lot of vets just fail to realize, gunner was made to be more on par with the other classes. It was clearly underpowered in u2xmp and was not played as much as the other classes.

A lot of vets say "Oh the game isn't the same, ranger sucks...or tech sucks" Yet do you see these people actually making the effort to play those classes and help them out? Vets that go to gunner because it pwns and forget their class they loved in u2xmp? WTF kinda support is that from the community? We as players need to give constructive comments and beta test - that's our job.

You're not an idiot, I think you should be commended for playing tech repeatedly. Because you'll get used to it like a lot of people are starting to say. You'll start to accept certain things and deal with them or commen on them here. You're beta-ing.

Now all you jackasses out there who used to play ranger and tech, and now don't? Great loyalty to the game and abandoning the class you play. Try getting to know your new class and making a real effort to play it and learn. You guys rock.

tabasco
18th Dec 2004, 12:34 PM
I started playing U2XMP in Jan 04. From the moment I started playing, the gunner was an inconsequential member of a so-called "class" based game. Think about the attributes of each class. Does it not seem logical that the gunner (the class with the heaviest armor, weaponry, etc.) should be an integral part of offensive strikes?

I want all the "vets" to think about U2XMP. How many gunners actually assaulted a node? Ok. Now think about how many rangers were the top offensive players (the class with the lowest armor, weaponry, etc.). The class inequities that existed in U2XMP are FINALLY being rectified with the UT porting of XMP. (Ok, Ok...the gunners incendiary nade is a tad too strong, but otherwise....)

If you can't adapt to the changes, quit b1t[hing and go find another game. (BestBuy.com has Tribes:Vengeance for $29.99 :lol: <---Gay!!!)

.pot.OptimusPrime
18th Dec 2004, 04:13 PM
Hehey. Good points tabasco and fatass! :) Offensive gunner sounds logical to me too. On defense it sucked even worse than on offense IMO because it couldnīt catch arti stealers when thay lose the first contact. I have always been very aggressive attacker in XMP with gunner and will keep it going. It breaks turrets, vehicles and blows up defenders --- but gets owned by rangers coz heīs so fat. No matter, the pleasure caused by succesful shot of concussion grenade and that terrible noise made it worth playing gunner even in U2.

|pure|Destruction
19th Dec 2004, 01:32 AM
gunners suck --> .
that goes for you too panda

MurderousPandaa
19th Dec 2004, 01:55 AM
Sorry.

.pot.OptimusPrime
19th Dec 2004, 04:26 AM
Oooh. Iīve earned the pleasure of being insulted by the allmighty power ranger, pure-destruction. Now I donīt dare to clean my monitor ever coz your words of truth have once stood on it. :lol: Now thatīs what I call the arrogance that pretty much ruined old XMPīs balance when people thought that the only way to be good player was to own with ranger as much as possible. It was pity that it was possible but fortunately in UT rangers arenīt that overpowered I think.

There are three classes (and fourth is badly needed) for a reason. Each and everyone of them is meant to be played and needed on the field. If thereīs some order of preference somethingīs really wrong with balance. In U2 XMP it was ranger>tech>gunner so this why I find conversation about converting the game as it was pretty bizarre. The true way for the veterans to show their quality is to be able to adapt to possible changes in gaming style and class balance. Rumors say that most of folks just swap to gunner coz itīs so über-killer but no way you can own better with it if you sucked with it in previous version. The main reason why the gunners do more frags now is that players of other classes havenīt got used to being cautious with gunners. Just get used to the idea that you can no longer just walk over them. And finally: killing gunner with gunner is the most difficult combat, use other class. I know this by exprerience.

StarGunner
19th Dec 2004, 01:09 PM
Oooh. Iīve earned the pleasure of being insulted by the allmighty power ranger, pure-destruction. Now I donīt dare to clean my monitor ever coz your words of truth have once stood on it. :lol: Now thatīs what I call the arrogance that pretty much ruined old XMPīs balance when people thought that the only way to be good player was to own with ranger as much as possible. It was pity that it was possible but fortunately in UT rangers arenīt that overpowered I think.

There are three classes (and fourth is badly needed) for a reason. Each and everyone of them is meant to be played and needed on the field. If thereīs some order of preference somethingīs really wrong with balance. In U2 XMP it was ranger>tech>gunner so this why I find conversation about converting the game as it was pretty bizarre. The true way for the veterans to show their quality is to be able to adapt to possible changes in gaming style and class balance. Rumors say that most of folks just swap to gunner coz itīs so über-killer but no way you can own better with it if you sucked with it in previous version. The main reason why the gunners do more frags now is that players of other classes havenīt got used to being cautious with gunners. Just get used to the idea that you can no longer just walk over them. And finally: killing gunner with gunner is the most difficult combat, use other class. I know this by exprerience.

Well is we need another class I say give us the Soldier class. he gets the Assault Rifle Hand Grenades, and pistol. Leave the techs shot gun, but make the soldier the perfact ballance of all the classes. This way you don't get all the ballance problems with having three, four is mutch easyer to work with and you have an even number.

Soldier idea:
Speed: Avrage
health: Avrage
Info: Good jumping abilitys, avrage range, avrage health.
Weapons:Pistol, Assault Rifle

The solder would be the avrage man on the field good for offence and deffence. only gets two weapons but is the run of the mill player class.

tech gets aloted to this role:
Speed: slower than soldier but faster than gunner
Health: better than soldier, but not as good as the Gunner
info: best hacking still, good jumping abilitys, but bad long range powers
Weapons: Shotgun: for it's power, Grenadlouncher and everything els but the Assault rifle.

|pure|Destruction
19th Dec 2004, 10:57 PM
insulted by the allmighty power ranger, pure-destruction. Now I donīt dare to clean my monitor ever coz your words of truth have once stood on it.

excuse me mr teletubby kid. but my power ranger was quite exellent in u2xmp. but its a pos class to play with now. and adapting to a new style of play has nothing to do with it. its that the gunnner was tweaked to be an uber elite killing machine with a rl splash damage radius of like 8 meters if it were real life, and the ranger was nerfed down to little peasant girl status. ive come to think it was an intentional tweaking, but a bit too far. so now everyone who was gunners in u2xmp are like "woa cool, gunner kicks ass!" and the rangers are like "WTF happened to my sniper and pistol?!!" its really quite lame all around. So go back to spamming your rockets since you arent accurate enough to use hitscan effectively. And Ill go back to defending my ranger for all previous xmp rangers until the **** is fixed... <3

toky
20th Dec 2004, 12:35 AM
I thought it was going to be like u2xmp, so i was told :\

Fleury14
20th Dec 2004, 12:44 AM
I wanna hear from FMI, or whoevers doing the coding that the splash damage/radius has been increased. I don't see it. I see players that are a lot easier to hit because theyre not jumping and dodging like crazy, and because they cant kill me as easily as before.

toky
20th Dec 2004, 01:36 AM
Landing recovery adjustments would be nice.

:\

Stoneblind
20th Dec 2004, 03:13 AM
Obviously, as most of us are aware of, a lot of negativity has been surrounding the gunner class and their power; just thought I should stop by and post my thoughts on the topic at hand. The first class I have ever played in U2XMP was the gunner, and throughout the first of my days to the last of my days as a U2XMP player, I have spent a great deal of time playing each class, and I feel safe to say that I have become equally deadly and effective in each of them, so hopefully my thoughts are as unbiased as possible. Change can be a trip sometimes, and UTXMP came with a handful of them.

With all due respect and appreciation for Free Monkey, I sometimes believe that they laid their hands on something they should have left alone: class balance, which I felt was the essence of XMP; I believe in the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy, however, we all know that this is just not the full product, and future changes are coming.

Fighting a Gunner

I tend to have an easier time taking down a gunner as a ranger, to be honest. The reason being is that I can still use my speed to be more evasive and get at a safer distance, and pump two sniper rounds right into him, or a series of less powerful pistol shots. When I am caught in a situation where a gunner is close to me, I of course expect to get wiped out easily if I stay close, but in this game, it seems like I have to be at almost twice the distance away from a rocket explosion to get minimal or no splash damage at all. I sprint dodge plus boost and everything at the best of my ability; something just feels ackward; it could be speed, but damage is what seems to come to my mind first.

Whenever I am a technician, which I primarily am in this game, I am geared with spread weapons, which pack a hard punch when you are closer to your opponent, so in order to take a gunner out faster, I need to be closer, and with those gunner rockets, it seems to be far harder to take a gunner out than it used to be in U2XMP, because I am slower and more exposed to the splash damage, whereas I am faster and further away as a ranger. Since the shotgun has been, or seems to be, modified and reduced, I have to pump even more accurate and even closer shots into the gunner, and with what seems to be that larger splash damage, it just gets too tough when fighting a more skilled gunner.

I never got the chance to thoroughly play as a gunner and get myself acquainted with them and their modifications in combat, but I have certainly taken out several skilled gunners numerously using the other two classes, and to me, they are "different" in terms of power; it is no big deal since I am an adapting veteran, but in the case of less experienced players, this can be a bigger deal.

Conclusion

Perhaps these new changes have made a shift and drawn a finer line in the roles and limitations of the classes; maybe we are just too used to having that deathmatch feeling in us and expect fighting to be more equal, where in this game, we have that clash to where it is not supposed to be equal. It has bothered a lot of us and has made some heated discussions, but since this is a beta after all, expect some changes to be made in the near future. The more we discuss, the more Free Monkey will see, so hopefully everything will level out into a comfortable feeling of equilibrium in the future. :P

(GR)Killer
20th Dec 2004, 06:00 AM
I find using sniper rifle easy most of the time even with faded out crosshairs...i usually have no problems with it and i'm ranger about 90% of the time (under the name FlyingFist or [SG-1]O'Neill ) with...omg good ping for once :eek: ...but i havn't been playing much since i bought everquest 2 :D

FurociousFa
20th Dec 2004, 02:19 PM
vD_Xaero *cough* look who you're playing with.

phatazz, do you really believe their is a current balance? Honestly?

PhatAzz
22nd Dec 2004, 05:25 PM
vD_Xaero *cough* look who you're playing with.

phatazz, do you really believe their is a current balance? Honestly?

I said that after the headshot and tweaks are implemented there will be a burn in period to see if there is or is not balance, but you can't say one way or the other at this time. Right now the game is buggy and you just have to learn to play with what's going on.

There will be a balance - and an acceptable I presume after all of the fixes and tweaks are implented. That balance won't be the same as u2xmp, but it doesn't mean its worse or better just different.

As a lot of people saying it will just equate to adapt or die philosophy.

SwiftPaladin
23rd Dec 2004, 02:12 AM
The question is: who, or what will die?

I blame phalanx.

Gumby
23rd Dec 2004, 08:10 AM
The question is: who, or what will die?

I blame phalanx.

lol

It's a shame you can't pi55 on gunners with techs like you can on u2xmp... yet ;)