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chipmunk
1st Dec 2004, 01:56 PM
I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, so just in case it hasn't I have a small but very important request. Please don't allow gunners to conc jump while carrying an artifact, or at least severely hamper his ability to fly across the map with one.

Over the last week or so I've been playing alot of u2xmp almost solely as an offensive gunner, and have been intentionally conc jumping all over the place. I have come to the conclusion that it's just simply too imbalanced in its current state. Tech's can't catch up, period. Rangers can keep up to a certain point, but if a gunner uses the terrain properly for cover, the ranger's hitscan weapons are basically useless. Obviously if there's another gunner, he could also conc jump in pusuit. The thing is, that the sprint/dodge/conc key combination can be virtually impossible to pull off with any consistancy at higher pings. Therefore, at least in my experience, a low ping gunner is an unstoppable offensive force if he decides to play that way.

Anyway, I just wanted to see what everyone else thought about the idea. Discuss. :D

Mantik
1st Dec 2004, 02:11 PM
Sort of how you cannot use the teleporter in CTF or the flag drops to the ground.

iddQd
1st Dec 2004, 02:17 PM
Never seen it beeing used much but yes it makes sense to block concjump while carrying an artifact.

chipmunk
1st Dec 2004, 02:20 PM
Sort of how you cannot use the teleporter in CTF or the flag drops to the ground.

exactly

it's also similar to how epic limited adrenaline usage while holding a flag in 2k4. adrenaline never should have been thought up, but that's a whole other point.

conc jumping with an artifact also reminds be of rocket boosting with 0% friendly fire in ut99 ctf. you could load up 6 rockets and shoot them at a teammate's feet. he'd then go flying across the map (with or without the flag). imagine this on a wide open map like ctf-face. the only thing to really worry about is the landing, which is also very similar to conc jumping.

]Vik[
1st Dec 2004, 02:23 PM
i think there wonīt be any problems with concjumping "arti-gunners" , just think about the better netcode of UT:XMP . in U2:XMP itīs possible for good rangers to snipe a concjumping gunner in the air with a ping less then 150, easily with a ping less then 120 ( ping 120 in console , not scoreboard!)
i think to talk about the sniping rangers would be more interesting , i think the sniper rifle will be like the lightning gun of UT , some leet players could get a 14/15 hit quota , thatīs what i fear (just think about the sniper rifle and lightning gun , itīs much easier to hit an enemy with the lightining gun ) :(

nbk-Lei
1st Dec 2004, 02:27 PM
Over the last week or so I've been playing alot of u2xmp...

*cough* IRC *cough*

Fleury14
1st Dec 2004, 02:29 PM
*cough* IRC *cough*

*cough* agreed *cough*

And when I agree with Lei...

Edit: Furthermore, Daft, it's been mentioned already that togglebehindview is out, which means if you're going to conc jump, you gotta do it the old fashioned way, throwing it out and timing the jump. If somebody can actually pull this off consistently while having people on their back chasing them, I don't think they should be penalized for it, or have it removed. Then again, I'd have to see it in action first to get a feel for how it will be.

chipmunk
1st Dec 2004, 02:35 PM
yeah vik that's true, it should be easier in general for rangers to hit targets with the sniper, especially with the better netcode. so the ranger does indeed have a counter to the conc jump (as long as he can hit the gunner at least one time before he's out of range). he doesn't have many shots though, especially vs. a crafty gunner that uses cover properly.

that still leaves techs though. the assault rifle is the only hitscan weapon in his arsenal, and it's close to useless against gunners as-is. nevermind the fact that it loses accuaracy at a distance. he can shoot some primary shotgun fire at the gunner, but that won't do much damage either, especially if the shotty is toned down distance wise. the tech is pretty screwed in general if he decides to chase down that "artifact in the sky." :(

conc jumping definitely needs refinement, especially with an arti. just food for thought :)

chipmunk
1st Dec 2004, 02:40 PM
oh well y halo thar kiidddies!

yeah yeah irc ok whatever soon ;)

fleury - okay cool. I wasn't 100% sure what they were gonna do so I figured I should probably ask. I think that's a decent compromise. I'm gonna miss those "how the hell did he catch me as a gunner ?!?!" reactions though. :D

communist
1st Dec 2004, 02:52 PM
The tech being screwed here is fine - remember he screws the other classes on a lot of other occasions ;)
As for the conc. jumping - well I havent seen it too much and even when it wasnt a factor that really unbalanced the classes, might be due to to rather small size of the community and / or when it was used it was always without an artifact.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens on the public servers. Though a minor limitation from the start that could be increased / decreased with a patch over time after release. You'll know how much outcry there is going to be if they implement it in a patch later on... "ARGGG ThEY T00KZ0r 0UT TEH CONC. JUMPING!!!11! - i WiLL QUiT PLAYIGN THSI CRAP!!"

FurociousFa
1st Dec 2004, 03:05 PM
daft the whole point of teamwork and xmp is that not all classes can do EVERYTHING, and diversity is ALWAYS neccesary for success.

snipers can shoot them out of the air, while tech can one hit kill anything, especially at close distances...it balances out IMO.

no one expects every class to be able to handle every situation.
ex: "why do rangers suck on defense? they have crappy shield, and need some sort of deployable weapon" they are not made for that, as techs are not neccesarily built to catch arti carriers, while concing gunners can, and sniping rangers usually do.

NRK
1st Dec 2004, 03:18 PM
I have been playing as gunner recently quite a lot and the reason i swiched from ranger is because i like to be uncatchable. Not every gunner can conc jump and not everyone is used to it. I like not paying attention to any snipers near me, i just jump out of that area loosing 10% health and leaving them blind so they cant snipe me in the air. Also recently i become quite annoying arty runner, jumping over the map like crazy. Well, i kinda like such situation but i understand that it does not fit in XMP learning curve: thats too much. Seriously, successull conc jumping is harder than wall-jumping, and, as we know, wall jumping is not easy for everyone. (side note i am talking about conc jumping to DISTANCE, not up and die).

What if conc nade would cause player to DROP artifact if fired to his foot. For example gunner could cause player to drop artifact if he manages to hit him directly and artifact flies to random direction. Also, he couldnt conc jump because nade would cause him to drop artifact he is carying. That would seem logical to me.

.pot.OptimusPrime
1st Dec 2004, 04:24 PM
hmmm. This must be the first time somebody gets a problem out of conc jumping. In most maps only a very little minority of people plays gunner and ever fewer do conc jumping. I donīt remember any matches in which conc jumping gunners cap all the arties. Usually the jumpers kill themselves and snipers catch them very easily anyway if they havenīt got killed by their own hands. Personally I suggest itīs the rangers that are the unstoppable "rabbits" almost impossible to kill when they decide to flee with toys.
In theory conc jumping may be a mean trick, but in theory itīs rarely used, if at all. This might be due to the fact that the pitchy noise is rather irritatinga and at least I donīt feel too safe when I fly blindly to whatever direction.

*END OF CONVERSATION*

[LNS]ICovetYourChild
1st Dec 2004, 04:34 PM
keep it he same with togglebehind view

NRK
1st Dec 2004, 04:48 PM
hmmm. This must be the first time somebody gets a problem out of conc jumping.
This problem is already removed i think, because FMI wont let you be not blinded in 3rd person view (i think)

In most maps only a very little minority of people plays gunner and ever fewer do conc jumping.
You didnt see the game today in Alpha server, that was really elite gunner batle. O_o

.. and at least I donīt feel too safe when I fly blindly to whatever direction.

I am talking about REAL exploiting (yes i say its exploiting), it is having key setting binded to middle mouse button. That works this way: you click middle button, it toggles behind view and switches to 3rd weapon. You look down, hold sprint, dodge right while still going forward, fire conc nade down after the same amount of time it takes to double tap to dodge, and WOW, you are flying. An yes, you ARE NOT blind. You release middle button and it switches back to weapon 1 and toggles behind view to first person. At least thats the way i do it.

GotBeer?
1st Dec 2004, 05:15 PM
Hmm, I always dodge forward when I conc jump. Do you lose any distance dodging to the side while still running forward? Also, I have togglebehindview bound to 'b', but do everything else manually. Get it right about 9 out of 10 times now, even with my 250 ping.

From the way it sounds for UTXMP, guess I'll have to learn to time the conc nade jumps. And that factor there I feel pretty much negates the "advantage" the arti-running gunner theoretically has: Fire concussion grenade and wait for timer without getting shot, then jump and hope you don't get blinded or sent straight up by being .0001 secs off, then hope you don't get sniped out of midair.

Editted because I forgot about landing.

Sir_Brizz
1st Dec 2004, 05:48 PM
Behind view is and has always been considered an exploit in every Unreal Engine game. The reasons it was left in XMP are beyond me.

Tenacity
1st Dec 2004, 06:10 PM
Why why why :rolleyes: this game is already so balanced.

If there were some exploit or class that dominates then I think that everyone would be exploiting the same exploit and everyone would be playing the same dominating class.

The current balance of xmp is part of what makes it work so well. I think some ppl just can't stand the whole teamwork concept and that is why they want to mess with the balance.

I almost think that they don't like the balance and are trying to figure out a way to make the class they prefer get an edge. :(

I have tried conc jumping and could never get the hang of it and gave up. It is a learned skill and I am impressed by those who took the time to perfect it so I say leave the conc jumpers alone. They have earned the right to use it.

If we take away the ability of a gunner to conc jump with arty then maybe we need to hobble the ranger a bit also like take away the rangers ability to snipe while in the air (only if he is carrying an arty of course). :eek: :lol:

.sl0w.
1st Dec 2004, 07:03 PM
In ut2k4 there is a serverside option to allow behindview or not - imho that solves the problem. You still can concjump, but you get blinded and dont know where you land etc. Theres no real need to allow behindview ingame...

JaGo
1st Dec 2004, 07:21 PM
hmmm. This must be the first time somebody gets a problem out of conc jumping. In most maps only a very little minority of people plays gunner and ever fewer do conc jumping. I donīt remember any matches in which conc jumping gunners cap all the arties. Usually the jumpers kill themselves and snipers catch them very easily anyway if they havenīt got killed by their own hands. Personally I suggest itīs the rangers that are the unstoppable "rabbits" almost impossible to kill when they decide to flee with toys.
In theory conc jumping may be a mean trick, but in theory itīs rarely used, if at all. This might be due to the fact that the pitchy noise is rather irritatinga and at least I donīt feel too safe when I fly blindly to whatever direction.

*END OF CONVERSATION*


I'm guessing you have never EVER played with vD_Zaknafein.
He uses conc jumping to both RUN artifacts as well as run
RANGER artifact carriers down. With GREAT ease I might add.

Let him get 10 feet away from the node after stealing an artifact
and you'll never see him again...no matter what class you are. I
dare say you would be hard pressed to catch him in a RAPTOR.

The reason it's not that big a problem right now is because
on average there are 25 to 30 players playing at any given
time and many of them haven't reached that skill level, ie. NEW.
And in terms of skill, there's no doubt it takes time to learn
to conc jump and be proficient with it, but honestly, it's NOT
that hard.

If conc jumping had stayed the way it was, I guarantee you'd
have a problem with it in terms of artifact running.



Oh and... HI DAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!! <3!!!!!! Get you @ss on IRC!!!!

[LNS]Køttønmøuth
1st Dec 2004, 08:30 PM
/me agrees with JaGo, Zak is a beast with conc's. Conc jumping is extremely easy to master if you know how to dodge and shoot. Daft come to IRC(not soon, not when you find your headset, not tomorrow, not when utxmp comes out) but NOW.

fireball
1st Dec 2004, 08:46 PM
So, then. If you want to drop an arti on conc jump, how does one define a conc-jump to the engine? If a player uses a conc nade? What if he's trying to stun someone?

Mantik
1st Dec 2004, 08:53 PM
Køttønmøuth']Zak is a beast with conc's.

Understatement ;)

FurociousFa
1st Dec 2004, 08:56 PM
zak is only okay with 'em, he messes up often.

Xaero
1st Dec 2004, 08:58 PM
Speaking of Zak...I'm suprised he hasn't chimed in on this thread yet...

NRK
1st Dec 2004, 10:23 PM
So, then. If you want to drop an arti on conc jump, how does one define a conc-jump to the engine? If a player uses a conc nade? What if he's trying to stun someone?

You could use conc nades to make arty runners to drop arty ;)

Gumby
1st Dec 2004, 11:22 PM
Erm... ok... Euro equivalent (at least) of Zak's conc jumping would be our Azrael ;)

What about giving rangers concussion grenades ;) That would be ace :D

gravit
1st Dec 2004, 11:48 PM
Erm... ok... Euro equivalent (at least) of Zak's conc jumping would be our Azrael ;)

What about giving rangers concussion grenades ;) That would be ace :D

Now you're talking! One jump from base to base on Garden :D :lol:

EDIT: Ok, maybe 2. Btw, I haven't played in a while: does anyone ever do team-conc jumping? Like a gunner fires one out and a ranger times it?

[Shadow]Aksen
2nd Dec 2004, 01:44 AM
omg daft.

LivingPuppet
2nd Dec 2004, 03:16 AM
I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, so just in case it hasn't I have a small but very important request. Please don't allow gunners to conc jump while carrying an artifact, or at least severely hamper his ability to fly across the map with one.

Over the last week or so I've been playing alot of u2xmp almost solely as an offensive gunner, and have been intentionally conc jumping all over the place. I have come to the conclusion that it's just simply too imbalanced in its current state. Tech's can't catch up, period. Rangers can keep up to a certain point, but if a gunner uses the terrain properly for cover, the ranger's hitscan weapons are basically useless. Obviously if there's another gunner, he could also conc jump in pusuit. The thing is, that the sprint/dodge/conc key combination can be virtually impossible to pull off with any consistancy at higher pings. Therefore, at least in my experience, a low ping gunner is an unstoppable offensive force if he decides to play that way.



yeah

|pure|Destruction
2nd Dec 2004, 03:35 AM
hi daft. :hammer:

has there been anyone on the dev team that has tried to conc jump, to confirm that it will be possible or not in the mod? psysics are totally different in 2k4, so Im curious as to what it will look like if it will work. Oh and the downfall in 2k4 after a jump is like extremely retarded, but it definitely has its advantages when you are the one doing the shooting. :D Its really easy to hit someone mid air. Maybe if air control was set a little different, it wouldnt be so easy.

Fleury14
2nd Dec 2004, 05:10 AM
I've asked the conc question before. It will be the same as U2XMP except that there's no togglebehindview. This means that unless you wanna blind yourself silly, the only way to do it is to throw the grenade out and time your jump, not exactly the easiest thing to do.

Gumby
2nd Dec 2004, 07:15 AM
^^ Easy - dodge, look down and fire count to 3 and then press jump to soften your landing :)

Jubei
2nd Dec 2004, 08:53 AM
I've asked the conc question before. It will be the same as U2XMP except that there's no togglebehindview. This means that unless you wanna blind yourself silly, the only way to do it is to throw the grenade out and time your jump, not exactly the easiest thing to do.



blasphemy, luckily there's an option in 2k4 that will allow gunners to do 3d person view anyways, it's in the code and it's one of you're f... buttons.
Besides gunners are so easy to kill by a ranger that i don't see what all the fuss is about. Let gunners conc jump, it's the only thing they have that makes them stand out the most from other classes, and if you're a good ranger you get high and snipe the damn arty carrying gunner from far away.
It's good as it is.

GotBeer?
2nd Dec 2004, 09:22 AM
I like yelling "Yeehaw!" when I conc jump. Could FMI please add a speech bind using, say, Slim Pickens from 'Dr. Strangelove'? That would rule.

Fleury14
2nd Dec 2004, 10:13 AM
blasphemy, luckily there's an option in 2k4 that will allow gunners to do 3d person view anyways, it's in the code and it's one of you're f... buttons.
Besides gunners are so easy to kill by a ranger that i don't see what all the fuss is about. Let gunners conc jump, it's the only thing they have that makes them stand out the most from other classes, and if you're a good ranger you get high and snipe the damn arty carrying gunner from far away.
It's good as it is.

I'm pretty sure FMI is going to disable the F4 behind-view. Can someone confirm (again)?

Captain Kewl
2nd Dec 2004, 10:37 AM
It's a server option.

GotBeer?
2nd Dec 2004, 12:50 PM
It's a server option.
Here's hoping the server admins realize how necessary a part of the game non-blinding conc jumps are then. :D

Jubei
2nd Dec 2004, 01:38 PM
i'm betting nbk server will have the option turned off
:)

lol gotbeer that would be awesome indeed but i'm guessing fmi has everything ready and just smoothing things up right now

i'm wondering tho
can we make custom speech bindings and put it online so most can download them and we would hear it ingame and the ones that downloaded it 2???




btw is my sig 2 big xaero?

[LNS]ICovetYourChild
2nd Dec 2004, 01:43 PM
I like it.

Xaero
2nd Dec 2004, 01:55 PM
i'm betting nbk server will have the option turned off
:)

lol gotbeer that would be awesome indeed but i'm guessing fmi has everything ready and just smoothing things up right now

i'm wondering tho
can we make custom speech bindings and put it online so most can download them and we would hear it ingame and the ones that downloaded it 2???




btw is my sig 2 big xaero?

Try asking the mods of the forum your posting in. Please don't drag that crap here.

Jubei
2nd Dec 2004, 01:56 PM
ICovetYourChild']I like it.


great minds think alike.

Jubei
2nd Dec 2004, 01:58 PM
Try asking the mods of the forum your posting in. Please don't drag that crap here.


...

Maxx
2nd Dec 2004, 02:01 PM
Jubei, he is reffering to the mud slinging going on in the u2xmp forum. Out of context you post is innocent, but given that crap over sigs lately, I can see where he misunderstood. Hopefully you were asking a general question or playfully teasing, and not being a an asshat.

Jubei
2nd Dec 2004, 02:07 PM
Jubei, he is reffering to the mud slinging going on in the u2xmp forum. Out of context you post is innocent, but given that crap over sigs lately, I can see where he misunderstood. Hopefully you were asking a general question or playfully teasing, and not being a an asshat.

i was actually asking a question as i know there's a limitation to the signature sizes but i'm a noob
i think you know to wich persons i'm an asshat and it's certainly not 2 any of the players i scrimmed with and had great fun with in the past.
I thought xaero was mod on this forum.

you're making me feel bad xaero.
:(

Xaero
2nd Dec 2004, 02:12 PM
TECHNICALLY, yes....its too high by 20 pixels. I'm not really concerned about it through (unless of course someone else complains.) I PMed you, so anything else should be worked out there. Sorry about that.

edit: Toggle behind view conc jumping to avoid being blind should go away. As far as dropping the artifact, I don't like that idea.

Jubei
2nd Dec 2004, 02:20 PM
/me :fluffle: xaero

i think the real question is should we allow this option to be turned on or off in official scrims,ladder games and challenges.
But for on pubs it should be allowed.
I agree for it to be disabled in official games tho. But pubs is about fun imho.
We should vote on it.

Gumby
2nd Dec 2004, 03:04 PM
I vote leave it in!

I rarely play gunner but i think it's quite a good thing to have in. As said above it's a server side option, which means that server admins, Jolt (if there is a league), CB and whoever else rights rules ;) will ultimatley have the decision in interclan affairs...

But in pubs i reckon it should definately be left in too!!!!!

Sir_Brizz
2nd Dec 2004, 03:21 PM
Why should it be turned ON in pubs? To make the noobs feel even less "with it" and leave the game altogether SOONER?

Fact: ToggleBehindView has always been an option on the server and been considered an Exploit (yes since Unreal 1!!) in Multiplayer. I don't know why anyone would think that you shouldn't have to get blinded as a gunner to conc jump Every other game that has conc jumping has the health loss AND the blinding as results of it (yes, even TFC). The only reason to want it in is because you used to "exploit" it in u2xmp.

FurociousFa
2nd Dec 2004, 03:23 PM
whenever i play midfield/arti capping gunner i go 3rd person, i don't really think its cheating or unfair, atleast not that it changes games too much...i mean i can conc w/o 3rd person but far less easily.

I'm def. for having it either in public, or whatever the admin thinks is right, everyone will have their own opinions no point in making a general consensus except for ladders and official things as such : ).

Gumby
2nd Dec 2004, 05:37 PM
exactly :)

Sir_Brizz
2nd Dec 2004, 05:47 PM
whenever i play midfield/arti capping gunner i go 3rd person, i don't really think its cheating or unfair, atleast not that it changes games too much...i mean i can conc w/o 3rd person but far less easily.

I'm def. for having it either in public, or whatever the admin thinks is right, everyone will have their own opinions no point in making a general consensus except for ladders and official things as such : ).
If it's not easily accessible to every player but the engine "allows" it it's an exploit (different than a cheat). 3rd person gives you a wider range of visibility, none of the visual "effects" first person gives, and makes something like conc jumping TOO easy. There is a reason why it's considered an exploit in every other Unreal engine game, and it's not because it gives you 3rd person.

FurociousFa
2nd Dec 2004, 06:13 PM
if i felt that the community (as it were) as a whole thought it ruined xmp, i wouldn't do it. But when gunners from every clan, and many non-clan use it, i become desensitized.

What about colorizing names? U2xmp has color names, but its not easily accesible unless you know what sites give you codes for changing colors...is than an exploit? Your definition is very poor.

Same with game tweaking, what about players who tweak cache sizes, and things like that for DOOM III and compete online? Changing files isn't easily accesible, is that an exploit?

Xaero
2nd Dec 2004, 07:14 PM
Game tweaking and name colorizing arent exploits because they don't give you an unfair advantage. Game performance is a fair advantage, tbh. Name colorizing is the main reason we have so many problems with the master server in u2xmp, as well.

In my book, keybinding complex movments into 1 key is an exploit, as well. If you can't learn to do it yourself, and then be able to do it yourself, you have no business doing it.

edit: right after I posted, i remembered how anal some of the rvs and css ladders are about what "tweaks" you use in a match, so yes, even some of what you call "tweaks" are considered exploits.

Gumby
2nd Dec 2004, 07:49 PM
I think if togglebehindview is viewed as an exploit, then i think i'll toss suicide binds into the melting pot...

I agree with mr.X about the binding of lots of stuff to a key - lame

Sir_Brizz
2nd Dec 2004, 07:54 PM
I think if togglebehindview is viewed as an exploit, then i think i'll toss suicide binds into the melting pot...

I agree with mr.X about the binding of lots of stuff to a key - lame
How does suiciding give you an unfair advantage?? It just delays the possibility of murdering yourself.

Behind view gives you more advantages than just the ability to view from behind your head.

Gumby
2nd Dec 2004, 08:08 PM
Was just sh1t stirring tbh ;)

But thinking about it - suiciding allows you to get places faster, recharge your weapons and health and (in xmp) to change your class...

eg. Offensive player, just had fight outside own base as tech, low on health + shield, no-one around, can't be arsed to trapse all the way across the map to a recharge thing and ooh your team-mate just hacked a deploy near the enemy base... Quel choix...

Toggle behind view lets you see behind your head but sort of restricts what is in front of you... What other advantages? :confused:

[DF]phalanx
2nd Dec 2004, 08:35 PM
togglebehindview switch to nade launcher bind
pwn that :P
great for quick conc jumping :P

Xaero
2nd Dec 2004, 08:35 PM
increases your FOV, negates blinding effects from conc nades and being on fire...those are the most obvious.

Gumby
2nd Dec 2004, 08:54 PM
Fire i see what ya mean - but you can see through the fire for the mostpart...
Maybe if Onfire=1 then togglebehindview=0 :)

I still manage to blind myself in 3rd person view sometimes :D But then again i'm a crap gunner :shy:

FurociousFa
2nd Dec 2004, 09:12 PM
yeah in 640x480, being on fire is even worse in 3rd person, whole screen is gone mostly and then you have a character infront of you : P.

Sir_Brizz
2nd Dec 2004, 11:43 PM
Was just sh1t stirring tbh ;)

But thinking about it - suiciding allows you to get places faster, recharge your weapons and health and (in xmp) to change your class...

eg. Offensive player, just had fight outside own base as tech, low on health + shield, no-one around, can't be arsed to trapse all the way across the map to a recharge thing and ooh your team-mate just hacked a deploy near the enemy base... Quel choix...

Toggle behind view lets you see behind your head but sort of restricts what is in front of you... What other advantages? :confused:
It's either a bind or he shoots a grenade at his feet and kills himself anyways. Suiciding is a faster way to accomplish something that could be done in any number of other ways without it. Behindview can't be done by any other method than a bind.

Gumby
3rd Dec 2004, 11:01 AM
True, unless you're magic and get someone to spec you sitting next to ya ;)

FurociousFa
3rd Dec 2004, 03:04 PM
or you manually type it into the console.

MÆST
3rd Dec 2004, 09:53 PM
CJing arty carriers and binding a suicide command are all fair game. As is behindview but the non-blinding effect of behindview is a little grey. Not sure exactly how I feel about that.

Gumby
3rd Dec 2004, 11:01 PM
CJing arty carriers and binding a suicide command are all fair game. As is behindview but the non-blinding effect of behindview is a little grey. Not sure exactly how I feel about that.

I think behind view has a legitimate use in this game... what about if the ability to use it is limited to when you are a gunner with the grenade launcher selected...? But it does also have it's uses for trickjumping (never used it like this but apparently so :))

Sir_Brizz
3rd Dec 2004, 11:17 PM
I think behind view has a legitimate use in this game... what about if the ability to use it is limited to when you are a gunner with the grenade launcher selected...? But it does also have it's uses for trickjumping (never used it like this but apparently so :))
What is legitimate about it?

What other game that has concussion grenades and conc jumping lets you view from third-person, let alone without being blinded?

MÆST
3rd Dec 2004, 11:29 PM
What is legitimate about it?

What other game that has concussion grenades and conc jumping lets you view from third-person, let alone without being blinded?
What other game has 4 artifacts that you have to register to win? Saying it shouldn't be simply because it hasn't been done before is dumb. And just because you say so doesn't mean "behindview has been viewed as an exploit in every Unreal game." Viewed by who, you? It's also been a feature of every Unreal game. An option for server admins to disable it is fine. But if everyone can do it, it is fair game. Personally, I'd wish my opponents would run around in 3rd person the whole game.

SwiftPaladin
3rd Dec 2004, 11:45 PM
Brizz posts lots of 'statistics' and 'facts', but never actually presents it (ie, posting URL or citation of a public, reliable source). When questioned about them you'll get "that was sarcasm/exaggeration/etc".

Tip: instead of saying something like "99% of..." just say "In my experience". Or insert a small, tiny "I think..." before your sentences. I assure you you'll get less enemies that way

Gumby
4th Dec 2004, 10:01 AM
Classic case of trying to shout people down me thinks... :mad:

FurociousFa
4th Dec 2004, 10:59 AM
then again swift, if you say "i think" or "my belief" before a sentence it will weaken any argument.

Sir_Brizz
4th Dec 2004, 11:56 AM
What other game has 4 artifacts that you have to register to win? Saying it shouldn't be simply because it hasn't been done before is dumb. And just because you say so doesn't mean "behindview has been viewed as an exploit in every Unreal game." Viewed by who, you? It's also been a feature of every Unreal game. An option for server admins to disable it is fine. But if everyone can do it, it is fair game. Personally, I'd wish my opponents would run around in 3rd person the whole game.
The argument only has to do with conc jumping and the problems behindview presents, so I don't see what you are trying to prove with these other "arguments". They're irrelevant. The difference in game types isn't what makes one action okay and another not okay.

Viewed by EPIC? You know, the people who CREATED the game? BehindView has never been turned on in multiplyer by default because the use of behindview is too exploitable. For example, in the early days of 2k3 there was a bug where when you shot the TL and switched to the camera, the behindview would work. IT removed all of the disadvantages of using the camera from far away (like worse visual, static, etc) and gave you a huge fov. Epic took it out because it was exploitable. Simply, just as exploitable as it is in this case.

NRK
4th Dec 2004, 12:41 PM
Any post is what person thinks anyways, i suppose ;)

SwiftPaladin
4th Dec 2004, 02:34 PM
In Mock Trial or Debate Competitions (or if you're talking to a smart person), he/she will pickup your 'facts' real fast and base his whole argument on how your facts are completely wrong (then sneakily introduce his own idea(s) ). You can still make a strong argument without using fictional figures (by posting real ones and explaining those) or simply by not taking a quantitative approach.
Sure NRK.

Sir_Brizz
4th Dec 2004, 02:42 PM
Where did I post any quantity??

Most of the time when I play with percentages and numbers I say "I would bet 90% of them..." "Probably 90% of them..." I don't remember ever saying "Exactly 90% of them..." or even "90% of them...". This isn't debate court, this is a place where expressing your opinions is OKAY. In debate court, the goal is to present you as right and the other person wrong.

MÆST
4th Dec 2004, 03:49 PM
Viewed by EPIC? You know, the people who CREATED the game? BehindView has never been turned on in multiplyer by default because the use of behindview is too exploitable. For example, in the early days of 2k3 there was a bug where when you shot the TL and switched to the camera, the behindview would work. IT removed all of the disadvantages of using the camera from far away (like worse visual, static, etc) and gave you a huge fov. Epic took it out because it was exploitable. Simply, just as exploitable as it is in this case.

Luckily there's no trans camera in XMP. Like you said, that instance it "removed all of the disadvantages of using the camera from far away" ... therefore it was a bug that needed to be fixed. Someone who uses behindview in game may get the advantage of greater FOV, but there's plenty of disadvantages that pop up ... mainly that of not being able to aim worth a damn.

[GDC]Faust
4th Dec 2004, 04:13 PM
the goal is to present you as right and the other person wrong.

As I read through your posts, you basically stated one thing about conc-jumping: Due to the fact that it used the togglebehindview-command, it is an exploit and thus has to be viewed as a cheat. This is your opinion and you have got the right to say that.

In opposition to that stands the opinion that conc-jumping is something legitimate and viewed as an essential aspect of the movement in XMP.

You now want to convince those who share the second view with the fact that in UT, the 3rd-personview has eversince been looked at as an exploit because it provides the players with the advantage of an unrealistic point of view within a FPS-scenario. (To see what happens behind you is not considered being part of a FPS-game) You now claim that this is viewed by a broad range of UT-gamers, who have been pissed about that from the first day (This still needs to be proved, though). In XMP, it is not only the point of view which is altered in a way that is not suitable for a FPS, there comes the fact that one is one getting blind when using this command and shooting a grenade. Thus, the gameplay is even more violated.
You did say, though, that the conc-jump per se is not an exploit, since it's embedded into the FPS-gameplay of XMP. You just want ppl to get blinded by their own flash (correct me if i'm wrong here)

BUT you also have to listen to the arguments of the other side, which say that XMP is, 1) Not UT, thus the gameplay has to be considered as unique, not less due to the fact that UTXMP is not a Mutator nor a gametype of 2004 and thus in no way bound to the gameplay of the original UT2004, so there is no reason to alter something in its gameplay because it's not UTish. You can't blame AS for their top-down-view, either, for example. Which leads us to 2) the question wether the feature of conc-jumping is an essential part of XMP-gameplay. As this is used in XMP since its beginning and has been used in diverse scrims and leagues I can concur that it has not been seen as an exploit or cheat so far.
3) It is an action which is not to be executed by beginners because it has to be practised before used right. The beginning gunner didn't conc-jump regularly and they won't conc-jump regularly. It's in that way not a cheat, because it gives an advantage to noobs.
4) It costs health.


Well, the only point where your argumentation can be attacked is in the claim that the majority of the community stands behind your view of the command as exploit
and the only point where your opposition can be attacked is in THEIR claim that the majority of the community stands behind the view of the command as common practice.

THUS: This dispute will be solved when we know how the majority of the community thinks. But how do we know? Well, FMI leaves the choice to the server-admins to switch it off, so that this problem will solve itself over time.

Whatever....

Sir_Brizz
4th Dec 2004, 05:39 PM
Faust']As I read through your posts, you basically stated one thing about conc-jumping: Due to the fact that it used the togglebehindview-command, it is an exploit and thus has to be viewed as a cheat. This is your opinion and you have got the right to say that.

blah blah blah
I already stated IN THIS VERY THREAD that there is a difference between exploiting and Cheating. It doesn't require re-examination.

Also, I never claimed or said that conc jumping itself was bad. But you look at any other game that has a similar technique (I'm thinking of TFC and I know there are several others) and you ill find that none of them have "blinding" on the list of things that DON'T happen to you when you conc jump.

Behindview IS AN EXPLOIT. Conc jumping is not.

NRK
4th Dec 2004, 07:00 PM
:lock: :rolleyes:

FurociousFa
4th Dec 2004, 10:25 PM
If the majority of a community brushes it off, as unimportant or not exploitive in a harmful way then it being a bug/illegal is irrelevant.

ex : if all of a certain gaming community agreed, or majority that an aimbot to help aim to make game go faster or be a positive thing were to happen, it wouldn't really matter that technically or even in the eyes of OTHER games (which you have done with tfc, which is also VERY IRRELEVANT TO XMP) it is cheating.

I have used third person for conc jumping, and have never once been yelled at or accused of exploiting for doing it, because a majority of the people who have asked about it, also use it.

Thus i conclude that because apathetic attitude towards it, it doesn't matter, and hasn't mattered in XMP.

MÆST
4th Dec 2004, 10:41 PM
If I had a say on how CJing worked, this is what I would say. Non-blinding CJing is not bad for the game. In fact, it is good for the game. However, I don't think that that behindview should be the method to CJ without getting blinded. In my opinion, the best CJers shouldn't be the ones who know how to bind a key to a fancy behindview weapons switching alias, rather it should be the players that have mastered a specific CJing skill. In other words, if you are just standing still and shoot a concussion grenade straight down you should be blinded no matter if you are in first person or third person. If you are running forward then the blinding should be just a little less severe. However, say a person dodges and CJs ... then the blinding effect should be slightly less (and the blinding effect would be the same whether you are in first or third person). Finally, if you do a boost-dodge and then CJ, then the blinding effect should be even less and should run out in a half a second or so. If you think about those four different situations realistically you will see they make sense. Standing still you see the grenade hit your feet and you experience max blinding. Running forward, dodging, and boost-dodging would therefore have the effect of having the grenade hit the ground farther and farther behind you which would result in less and less blinding effect. I hope the devs will consider this method and discuss it.

JaGo
4th Dec 2004, 10:59 PM
From U2XMP\help\readme.txt


5.3 Concussion jumping
----------------------

There's a reason why the bulk of the combatants in XMP stay reasonably close to
the ground: that's where all the action is. But if you want to get a bird's
eye view of the action, you can try something that's pretty risky: Concussion
jumping.

Just fire a concussion grenade at your feet, and jump when it explodes. You'll
probably be a little woozy, a little blind, and a lot hurt, but it's possible.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


It appears to me the developers of this game NEVER intended for you to
be able to CJ without at least partial blindness. Behindview negates any
and all blindness affects of the C nade.

MÆST
4th Dec 2004, 11:17 PM
It appears to me the developers of this game NEVER intended for you to
be able to CJ without at least partial blindness. Behindview negates any
and all blindness affects of the C nade.

I don't know anyone who has denied that.

.pot.OptimusPrime
5th Dec 2004, 08:27 AM
In my opinion the whole situation is pretty weird. One class has to shoot flashbangs on their feet to get proper movement. The proplem is preferably gunnerīs pathetic dodging and moving abilities. If conc jumping didnīt exist untill this day and someone put it in game, I think people would regard it as the most stupid feature ever. Itīs just a remainder from the past and a slight bug in gameīs physics engine. I hope this physics curiosity is fixed and soldiers donīt fly like birds when hit by c-nade.

(Just imagine the amount of energy packed in the fist-sized grenade when it slings people to sky. No way even if itīs UNREAL. If this happens, it should be done in one kilo pieces...)

Letīs just ban all key strings, bindings and behinview tricks and concentrate on the essential: heavy fingerwork that separates men from boys. FPS is first person shooter and let it remain that way. Itīs the best way to get immersion and gaming experience though it doesnīt always serve the needs of hardcore gamers that are obsessed to frag, frag and frag some more.

[DF]phalanx
5th Dec 2004, 10:30 AM
so if you want to limit gunners movement by not allowing conc jumping with arti
how about no wall jumping with arti as well
conc jumping stays

NRK
5th Dec 2004, 10:35 AM
...and concentrate on the essential: heavy fingerwork...
Do you say conc jumping is no fingerwork?
However, if you look at amount of peaple playing gunner nowadays, you will see that gunner is no more last class at the game. Ussually if i see gunner on defence i no longer think he cant catch me. Everyone see jumping gunners and learning to jump too.
Well i know that now there are only veteran players left in u2xmp, and we are probably getting the best games ever these days. Well, look at that, if we manage to get some server full, everyone gets almost the same score at the end of the game, everyone knows what to do, and at most times you can trust everyone in your team to do his job (defending, hacking, stealing arty). So cool.

FurociousFa
5th Dec 2004, 10:51 AM
Phalanx has spoken.

.pot.OptimusPrime
5th Dec 2004, 10:52 AM
I donīt think cjumping shakes the gameīs balance to any direction, itīs just plain stupid to my eyes. But what pissed me off is the possiblity to cut down the difficulty by abusing command strings as discussed earlier. And when combined to behindview and nice aircontrol it allows nice exploitation. Concussion jumping shouldnīt be the answer to gunnerīs poor movement, the solution could be eg. better jetpack or slighlty faster running speed or diminished fatiguing.

Dragon_X
5th Dec 2004, 11:05 AM
phalanx']so if you want to limit gunners movement by not allowing conc jumping with arti
how about no wall jumping with arti as well
conc jumping stays
let me ask you, can you wall jump across the map?

[DF]phalanx
5th Dec 2004, 11:18 AM
no but rangers can get quite a long way very quicly wall jumping across the edge of the map blocking volumes
and also air control rangers can manouver great in the air
gunners can hardly manouver in the air

.pot.OptimusPrime
5th Dec 2004, 12:26 PM
phalanx']no but rangers can get quite a long way very quicly wall jumping across the edge of the map blocking volumes
and also air control rangers can manouver great in the air
gunners can hardly manouver in the air

Rangers donīt need to use weird programmed key combos from bouncing from a wall to another unlike gunners using conc jumping with 3rd person view. They always say that gunner is the defensive class. Defending situations arenīt just the few secs when ranger drops by and steals/tries to steal artifact. Usually the attacker doesnīt get killed soon enough and you have to go after him. BUT... If so then whatīs the point with defender class that cannot catch attackers without shooting himself with a stun grenade. Doesnīt really make any sense. When a fleeing ranger gets further than 70 m or so, itīs no use trying to catch him. :mad:

Concussion jumping is a stupid useless feature that has nothing to do with balance except being an excuse for gunners being extremely slow tank arses. -----> Either gunner needs to be faster or his projectiles.

dutch_gecko
5th Dec 2004, 01:02 PM
(Just imagine the amount of energy packed in the fist-sized grenade when it slings people to sky. No way even if itīs UNREAL. If this happens, it should be done in one kilo pieces...)

Completely irrelevant, but flashbangs produce their enormous amount of noise by releasing a tremendous pressure wave. This wave is probably (I'm no expert) strong enough to flip vehicles and send bodies flying. It should in fact do more damage than it does at the moment, but that would be unfair.

fireball
5th Dec 2004, 01:43 PM
Gecko, actual flashbangs are there to stun, not to slam your targets into the wall, which would be the effect if it was powerful enough to flip a vehicle.
Not to mention structural damage..

IndianPsycho
5th Dec 2004, 02:47 PM
- Conc jump blinds in 3rd person view
- ToggleBehindView is a server side option
- You can still conc jump with an artifact ;)