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View Full Version : XMP conservatism. Whatīs wrong with you people?


.pot.OptimusPrime
20th Nov 2004, 05:31 AM
Itīs really weird that vast majority of people just keep on yelling for SAME, SAME and ONCE AGAIN SAME when FMI asks for playersī opinions about possible changes. I mean, U2 XMP lived about two months after final release until Legend was closed. Online gameīs lifespan is usually some years in which itīs developed constantly and during that long time it reaches good balance. How the hell could XMP be any kind of exception? There was only one patch that didnīt make the game perfect for sure.

Whatīs the problem with fourth class and removing and adding weapons and so on? For example developing of Warcraft 3 and its sequel have been constant and many very dramatic changes have taken place. Why should this game remain in the way it was one year ago? Is it just fear of new things and maybe getting beaten few times when you adapt to the new gaming system. Why donīt we at least try out the new ideas and changes FMI (and forum trolls) invent? Good players are open minded and can adapt to new situations.

NO FLAMING FFS PLZ OMFG TRY 2 BEHAVE UR ADULTS!!!!!!111111 :lol:

flo0tz
20th Nov 2004, 05:45 AM
its not that they want to change the game at all, its so us players have a larger player base, theres what one server for xmp at the moment? Whats wrong with making and old, great game new again; to a hole bunch of new people so that they might play XMP like it was a long time ago, before it 'died'? Its hard to get a good game of XMP going, but with the support Ut2004 gets, patches, and a stable master server, maybe we can finally play a gg...

.pot.OptimusPrime
20th Nov 2004, 05:56 AM
XMP is not a bad game and not a perfect one either. I just donīt get the point of opposing everything new before they have even tried it in "real life." Some changes might make the game better, some worse but why not trying them first. And for the new gamers, they donīt know what theyīre missing when they get their hands on the new UT XMP with some differences from the old.

dutch_gecko
20th Nov 2004, 06:22 AM
its not that they want to change the game at all, its so us players have a larger player base, theres what one server for xmp at the moment? Whats wrong with making and old, great game new again; to a hole bunch of new people so that they might play XMP like it was a long time ago, before it 'died'? Its hard to get a good game of XMP going, but with the support Ut2004 gets, patches, and a stable master server, maybe we can finally play a gg...
Q-Tracker is currently giving me 13 servers, of which 11 dont have a password. The two HoC servers dont show up in qtracker, so at the moment I have a pick between 13 servers to play. That's not bad.

Back on topic, the reason people dont want change just yet is that they want to see just how good FMI can make the original. You were mentioning how games traditionally evolve, and this is true. However, they evolve by adding to the game, not changing it at it's most basic level. Take Half Life: The original multiplayer was your standard DM, CTF etc offering. Someone made Counter-Strike. It didn't replace the original multiplayer, but was offered alongside it.

Things such as new character classes and weapon modifications can easily be done in a mutator or mod, so shouldnt be built in from the start.

FurociousFa
20th Nov 2004, 09:51 AM
I think additions are Great, but ! for a game that is..so balanced (imo, and many others) i don't believe that it should be a part of the game. Add-on definitely, sure !

I could just imagina the balance (or whatever you want to call what it has been) to be completely dominated/or dominating because of a class addition, or weapon changes.

Regardless of how much certain people who advocate their own class whine about their favorite weapon that always kills them and its unfair, most skilled players (people who can play all classes exceptionally) can get through any situation with one of the, Three classes.

I'm not saying a new class or weapon change would neccesarily tip the balance more so in one direction, but because of a not-so-large dev team, that doesn't have unlimited time and resources..i wouldn't want to take the risk.

edit : [after reading the posts after pot's original one]

I still think most people would be more comfortable with getting their hands on utxmp a.s.a.p, and if the game isn't perfect now, it should be made "more perfect" before other, possibly HUGE, variables take a position where they could make the whole situation (of balance) more complex.

so basically.. I'd rather have the barebones XMP game done, and if possible made more perfect BEFORE anything that could sway the balance is included.

PUKE
20th Nov 2004, 10:10 AM
From the Raptor Interview-
Our aim with UTXMP has been to make it as close to U2XMP as possible, and then work out any outstanding gameplay issues.

I don't think there are any "outstanding gameplay issues".

[[Vash]]
20th Nov 2004, 02:37 PM
It's called freedom of speech, and the opinions of others. Respect them.

FurociousFa
20th Nov 2004, 02:39 PM
lol vash i don't think it is so much that he's telling him to shutup, but is giving his own opinion about the issues..of issues.

[[Vash]]
20th Nov 2004, 02:41 PM
Heh, I have no problem with people's opinions, but at the same time, if FMI didn't want to hear an answer like "well I think it should remain the same" then they wouldnt have asked ;) that's all I'm implying. If things change, I only want them to change for the better, aka the game still kicks ass and is balanced like XMP.

FurociousFa
20th Nov 2004, 02:59 PM
i think it was implied that by their standards their are outstanding game issues in the original version... i don't believe that there is .. i just want fun fun ; (

Tenacity
20th Nov 2004, 03:56 PM
I agree, I don't think that there are issues.

XMP is so very well balanced as it is and it creates an atmosphere for team effort not just individuals all fragging that happen to all be on the same team.

Team effort is emphasized by default and everyone from the noob to the elite can contribute in a positive way.

Please I do not want just another version of the same old same old UT in team format. XMP is unique and I would like to see it stay that way.

As far as that goes I am not into mutators much either. What is unique about XMP is that it fosters team play, not its fancy weapons or mutators and such. I think that the mutators turn XMP back into same old same old DM or CTF type of game. I say keep it simple and keep it the same as much as possible.

PPL that get bored with it need to learn to be a team player and improve on their team skills because teamwork is what XMP is all about. heh IMO :)

Now I am not opposed to mods, like the raptor racing thing, it looks pretty awesome, but the original release, of UTXMP, should be as close to U2XMP as possible.

I love the whole team concept, getting on teamspeak, talking to buds, having fun, discussing strategies, talking trash, telling jokes, learning new tricks, celebrating victories, and mourning our losses together. I think our clan has had some really good times. For me that is what gaming is about. XMP helps promote that IMO

Dragon_Myr
20th Nov 2004, 10:09 PM
XMP died because:
1) Atari rushed out Unreal 2 and didn't give Legend time for multiplayer
2) Atari did not fund Legend for the multiplayer of Unreal 2
3) Atari canned Legend after they completed the best multiplayer they could in another rushed timeframe
4) Atari's promotion of XMP consisted of one popup page on the Unreal 2 homepage. This popup normally got blocked by anti-popup browser programs. There were no supporting advertisements anywhere in any form. Not even a stupid banner ad was created.
5) Atari did not monitor the master server and did not keep track of when it would go down, even if they were emailed about it. News of master server problems was unheard of by Epic when they first learned about it. They fixed it and Atari let it break again.

The point? This game never even got its chance to shine because of Atari. The game isn't at fault or broken; the promotion and delivery method (single player game and then a multiplayer game a year later) were both the worst in the history of video games.

[[Vash]]
20th Nov 2004, 11:36 PM
XMP died because:
1) Atari rushed out Unreal 2 and didn't give Legend time for multiplayer
2) Atari did not fund Legend for the multiplayer of Unreal 2
3) Atari canned Legend after they completed the best multiplayer they could in another rushed timeframe
4) Atari's promotion of XMP consisted of one popup page on the Unreal 2 homepage. This popup normally got blocked by anti-popup browser programs. There were no supporting advertisements anywhere in any form. Not even a stupid banner ad was created.
5) Atari did not monitor the master server and did not keep track of when it would go down, even if they were emailed about it. News of master server problems was unheard of by Epic when they first learned about it. They fixed it and Atari let it break again.

The point? This game never even got its chance to shine because of Atari. The game isn't at fault or broken; the promotion and delivery method (single player game and then a multiplayer game a year later) were both the worst in the history of video games.

Well put, and well stated. :tup:

IMO: with the amount of interest FMI has helped generate with the UTXMP port from Unreal II XMP, the community will grow and will succeed, unlike our predecessor called XMP and Atari's "oversight" on the game. Having said that, this is my reasoning behind my call to ask that UTXMP be the same, if not as close as possible to the original, so the enlarged and more informed UT community has a chance to play this kick @ss game that us XMP-ers have been playing for some time.

Sir_Brizz
21st Nov 2004, 12:12 AM
XMP died because:
1) Atari rushed out Unreal 2 and didn't give Legend time for multiplayer
2) Atari did not fund Legend for the multiplayer of Unreal 2
3) Atari canned Legend after they completed the best multiplayer they could in another rushed timeframe
4) Atari's promotion of XMP consisted of one popup page on the Unreal 2 homepage. This popup normally got blocked by anti-popup browser programs. There were no supporting advertisements anywhere in any form. Not even a stupid banner ad was created.
5) Atari did not monitor the master server and did not keep track of when it would go down, even if they were emailed about it. News of master server problems was unheard of by Epic when they first learned about it. They fixed it and Atari let it break again.

The point? This game never even got its chance to shine because of Atari. The game isn't at fault or broken; the promotion and delivery method (single player game and then a multiplayer game a year later) were both the worst in the history of video games.
I don't honestly think that this is all of the reasons XMP died. I think there were alot more.

Jackal
21st Nov 2004, 05:48 AM
XMP is hard enough for noobs. (which i do remember scared a few people off). but to add to it's complexity, would only defer more people. while this is a good/bad thing, i think we should start off small (same) then add to it.


btw, i only say it's a good thing, because i like the small community that we have. we all pretty much know each other, and i like that. but i want UTXMP to be the most sucsesfully mod known to man as well.

Gumby
21st Nov 2004, 05:47 PM
I don't honestly think that this is all of the reasons XMP died. I think there were alot more.

Spam :p

Like...

Sir_Brizz
21st Nov 2004, 07:00 PM
Spam :p

Like...
Does it matter what I think the reasons are? I've stated them before and almost none of the ACTIVE XMP community agrees with me, so it's frivolous to point them out.

Gumby
21st Nov 2004, 07:22 PM
But do you / have you really played it as much as them, to understand from their viewpoint?

Was only meant in jest anyway. No need to get the hump :D

Dandeloreon1984
21st Nov 2004, 11:04 PM
XMP is hard enough for noobs. (which i do remember scared a few people off). but to add to it's complexity, would only defer more people. while this is a good/bad thing, i think we should start off small (same) then add to it.


btw, i only say it's a good thing, because i like the small community that we have. we all pretty much know each other, and i like that. but i want UTXMP to be the most sucsesfully mod known to man as well.


I totally know what you mean... I already scared one person off, and all we were doin was giving them the basics ( like how the movement works ) :lol:... but i do not give up on it for em... I will just do a small tactical retreat for a while, and let them get hooked into ut2k4 a lot deeper, then gradually get them into xmp.

Sir_Brizz
22nd Nov 2004, 08:55 AM
But do you / have you really played it as much as them, to understand from their viewpoint?

Was only meant in jest anyway. No need to get the hump :D
I understand it from their viewpoint. They are still playing the game and feel like they have to defend it at all costs. Why do you think the whole ten people that visit the U2 forums these days alweays start huge flamewars everytime someone mentions that MAYBE XMP is dead? There is a direct correlation between that "anomaly" and the fact that the rest of the 90 people that USED to go to the XMP forums are here complaining about the POSSIBILITY that UTXMP won't be EXACTLY the same as XMP (which, in my opinion, would be a GOOD thing).

Gumby
22nd Nov 2004, 09:12 AM
Agreed :) Some aspects will never be the same - after all it is a port onto a slightly different engine...

Similarity is good, as is variety and change, but the movement / character attributes, some of the things that have started a lot of bitching/flaming seem to be important in people's eyes.

Movement is what makes XMP differ from UT2004 per say, after all if it is the same then it might as well be another game type as opposed to a mod... Most mods currently our there use the same movement minus the dodge and double jump... :rolleyes:

Sir_Brizz
22nd Nov 2004, 03:10 PM
Agreed :) Some aspects will never be the same - after all it is a port onto a slightly different engine...

Similarity is good, as is variety and change, but the movement / character attributes, some of the things that have started a lot of bitching/flaming seem to be important in people's eyes.

Movement is what makes XMP differ from UT2004 per say, after all if it is the same then it might as well be another game type as opposed to a mod... Most mods currently our there use the same movement minus the dodge and double jump... :rolleyes:
I agree that the STYLE of the game should remain the same, because the style is what made the game. That's not every single little facet of the movement, which everyone keeps whining about and saying that it should be identical. The movement is unique, for sure, but the movement doesn't make XMP XMP, XMP is the gametype, the weapons, the characters and the balance before it's the DETAILS of the movement (because the greater movement style is part of the gameplay).

Gumby
22nd Nov 2004, 03:50 PM
Yeah but the movement is part of it...

I play 2004 quite a lot, but i don't think UTXMP's movement should even be vaguely similar :(

As someone once told me "If movement were described in bird terms, XMP would be a Golden Eagle, and UT would be a duck"

I found that funny anyway ;)

Anyhoo what will come, will come, and i for one will be thankful for it :) As lond as it does so eventually ;)

Sir_Brizz
22nd Nov 2004, 04:11 PM
Yeah but the movement is part of it...

I play 2004 quite a lot, but i don't think UTXMP's movement should even be vaguely similar :(

As someone once told me "If movement were described in bird terms, XMP would be a Golden Eagle, and UT would be a duck"

I found that funny anyway ;)

Anyhoo what will come, will come, and i for one will be thankful for it :) As lond as it does so eventually ;)
I agree that the movement is part of it, but I think it's the greater movement style, and not the little details of the movement, that make it unique.

Gumby
22nd Nov 2004, 05:37 PM
What do you mean by little details of movement? Confused :S

Do you mean for example Jump height:boost height or something? Or dodge distance/height? I dunno - i'm not testing it :lol:

As long as it's more or less the same :eek: ;)

Apathy
23rd Nov 2004, 04:22 AM
The gunner should have a minigun... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.pot.OptimusPrime
23rd Nov 2004, 09:35 AM
The gunner should have a minigun... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Agreed. Homing missiles are also quite crappy, they should lock when targetīs inside the big circle not the tiny crosshair.

Sir_Brizz
23rd Nov 2004, 09:42 AM
What do you mean by little details of movement? Confused :S

Do you mean for example Jump height:boost height or something? Or dodge distance/height? I dunno - i'm not testing it :lol:

As long as it's more or less the same :eek: ;)
Most people don't want more or less the same, they want identical.

I'm fine with more or less the same.

FurociousFa
23rd Nov 2004, 02:24 PM
i think homing missles are a pain right now (thats a good thing) they make up for speed by catching you 30 seconds after all the red bars showing that they are following you have dissappeared. They really are quite dangerous, i've been victimed and victimized many a people with 'em, no joke.

Magwa
23rd Nov 2004, 11:52 PM
Look at the state Ut2k4 is in at this moment fragmented to hell by mods muts gametypes etc,Now making something for a game is great but variety is not always the spice of life some things are better left like they are like UTXMP.

Tenacity
24th Nov 2004, 12:33 AM
Look at the state Ut2k4 is in at this moment fragmented to hell by mods muts gametypes etc,Now making something for a game is great but variety is not always the spice of life some things are better left like they are like UTXMP.


:tup: I so totally agree :clap:

I would like to see XMP be consistent and the spice of life being the ability to improve your
skills and team play not new guns or mutators and such. :rockon:

Well put wierd looking Magwa dude :cheers:

Ummm sorry if that happens to actually be how you look.
No offense intended. ;)

Lyta
24th Nov 2004, 04:33 AM
What I've read in other threads is that they all wanna improve their favourite class or weaken a class they don't play ... hahaha ... so if we ignore this what should be changed?

New classes or weapons is not that easy. It has to be played for a while to get it balanced and see if it's good - so that's something better be done later in a mod.
The same for new vehicles. So I'd like to see an UT:XMP as close as possible to U2:XMP and as soon as possible ;)

I'm open to enhancements and mods released later and I'll have alot of fun testing and playing it. If a mod is really good and accepted of the majority it will become standard. That's better than implementing stuff now.

Gumby
24th Nov 2004, 06:41 AM
Most people don't want more or less the same, they want identical.

I'm fine with more or less the same.

Reality defines the fact that it is never going to be exactly the same... It's not just a copy+paste job that these guys are doing :D

Judge it when it's out, not before!!!!11! ;)

Mantik
24th Nov 2004, 09:50 AM
Tenacity: Magwa is a character from Last of the Mohicans, one of the Huron. That avatar is a picture of the actor who portrayed him ;P

Getting back to the subject at hand, it all boils down to personal preference. If something about the game is changed slightly, or tweaked.. someone somewhere will despise it and complain about it. Others might like it. The point is, if you love XMP.. which, you know you do.. you will play it regardless of whatever might not suit your fancy. I'm sure you don't agree with 100% of everything the game is today anyways, so just learn to compromise. Total surrender of one aspect to focus on another appeases nobody but one side of the argument.

Sir_Brizz
24th Nov 2004, 09:55 AM
Reality defines the fact that it is never going to be exactly the same... It's not just a copy+paste job that these guys are doing :D

Judge it when it's out, not before!!!!11! ;)
My sentiments exactly. But there are those here (and they know who they are) that won't be quiet when UTXMP comes out and it doesn't match up "feature" for "feature" to u2XMP.

Magwa
24th Nov 2004, 10:40 AM
My sentiments exactly. But there are those here (and they know who they are) that won't be quiet when UTXMP comes out and it doesn't match up "feature" for "feature" to u2XMP.

The planets must be aligned or something because i agree with you on this one...:) It can not be exactly the same but the true spirit of the game can be very close and that is what i think alot of people are saying....2k3 was a huge diffrerence from Ut99 that many many peeps just quit playing Ut2k3 and kept playing Ut99 same for 2k4 the change was to great from what the original was if XMP goes this route it too will find it'sself in alot of trouble from the original players...i hope it is what we all want regardless i will give it a try,and i am hoping for the best.

Sir_Brizz
24th Nov 2004, 11:50 AM
The planets must be aligned or something because i agree with you on this one...:) It can not be exactly the same but the true spirit of the game can be very close and that is what i think alot of people are saying....2k3 was a huge diffrerence from Ut99 that many many peeps just quit playing Ut2k3 and kept playing Ut99 same for 2k4 the change was to great from what the original was if XMP goes this route it too will find it'sself in alot of trouble from the original players...i hope it is what we all want regardless i will give it a try,and i am hoping for the best.
While I personally wouldn't mind having Skaarj vs. Humans and cooler weapons like Melee weapons, I do agree that this first shot should be close. By that I mean that it should feel and play like XMP did. As for the details, frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

dutch_gecko
24th Nov 2004, 02:01 PM
Mantik']
Getting back to the subject at hand, it all boils down to personal preference. If something about the game is changed slightly, or tweaked.. someone somewhere will despise it and complain about it. Others might like it. The point is, if you love XMP.. which, you know you do.. you will play it regardless of whatever might not suit your fancy. I'm sure you don't agree with 100% of everything the game is today anyways, so just learn to compromise. Total surrender of one aspect to focus on another appeases nobody but one side of the argument.
Mantik you really need to come here more often. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this one, Thanks.

P.S.
As for the details, frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
The original quote is in fact, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a dam." A dam was a coin of Indian currency with very little value. When "Gone With the Wind" was released, the actual word damn would probably have been too offensive for the general public ;)

Magwa
24th Nov 2004, 02:06 PM
Mantik you really need to come here more often. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this one, Thanks.

P.S.

The original quote is in fact, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a dam." A dam was a coin of Indian currency with very little value. When "Gone With the Wind" was released, the actual word damn would probably have been too offensive for the general public ;)

that is correct and it Dam was a measurement of corn to begin with...:)

Sir_Brizz
24th Nov 2004, 03:04 PM
Mantik you really need to come here more often. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this one, Thanks.

P.S.

The original quote is in fact, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a dam." A dam was a coin of Indian currency with very little value. When "Gone With the Wind" was released, the actual word damn would probably have been too offensive for the general public ;)
So this is the reason why Gone with the Wind is "hailed" as the introduction of foul language into Hollywood? At least according to the three film classes I took.

Magwa
24th Nov 2004, 04:09 PM
So this is the reason why Gone with the Wind is "hailed" as the introduction of foul language into Hollywood? At least according to the three film classes I took.

Yeah they used a play on words to get away with cussing ....was a huge thing back then...

FurociousFa
24th Nov 2004, 07:52 PM
Silly people with strong wit and cleverness.

Sir_Brizz
25th Nov 2004, 12:11 PM
Yeah they used a play on words to get away with cussing ....was a huge thing back then...
okay that makes sense...gotcha :)