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Uncle_Bob
28th Jun 2004, 10:40 AM
This is the beta release of my second map CTF-Trenches. Its two bunkers, face style with a network of trenches seperating them. Fighting in the trenches themselves is quite hardbitten as there is not much room to doge an attack and the bots seem to be quite efficient at killing. I would appreciate any comments on improving the map like gameflow, architecture, bot pathing ect. Thanks.


Download here http://www.unrealplayground.com/download.php?mapid=6197



http://www.freewebs.com/naliclan/Shot0032.bmp http://www.freewebs.com/naliclan/Shot0031.bmp

http://www.freewebs.com/naliclan/Shot0033.bmp

Nahand
28th Jun 2004, 12:09 PM
... ok...

0. DON'T UPLOAD .bmp PICTURES. THEY TAKE AGES TO LOAD!
1. Face-like map (ugh).
2. Canyon rock walls. It's called canyon for some reason, not box.
3. Bases are too tight. People OR BOTs cannot move effectively at the [small] bases, and it was not uncommon to get cramped with miniguns shooting. More than twice i saw enemy defending BOTs just kill each other.
4. Base front walls are too thin. Make them 32 instead of 16. Mind you, redo all of the base's architecture.
5. BOT behavior: don't defend properly (unless all out cluttered mayhem is defense), don't use sniper towers, take predictable path (left side) too often.
6. Trenches & map size. Since the map is that long, people take some time to get to enemy base. IF they get there, there's little they can do at enemy base (especially if enemies just re-spawned), and either have an unbelievable hard time satying alive OR just get killed. Since you might NOT consider decreasing base-to-base distance, i surely recommend re-think the trench system. As it is, it's just too easy to get stuck in trenches until an exit ramp, and thus get killed often, stupidly. You could think the trenches as in real life, horizontally to base position instead of the actual "straight" cannal style. It surely would make advance to enemy camp/base more an affair of opportunity rather than pure luck like now.
7. Complementing what i've said in the previous point, you should consider a building/construction/your room at the middle of the map, preferably walled out as to separate areas. Then zone the thing.
8. As a curiosity, i got stuck at the flag base, behind, againts the wall. Maybe do the flag base a square instead of the shape it has now? (and proper texture).

This is one of those type of maps that i would never do (unless out of my mind/made by a bet/forced to), and so it's somewhat difficult to me to point all that could be worth a new/different approach without just saying "trahs it".

Still, i hope this piece of a reply is worth to you, as it made me skip 15m of my daily Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory dose. :p

Nahand
28th Jun 2004, 12:12 PM
... other thing about those "bomb-holes" here and there: make them bigger/deeper. If they are there, at least make it so people can use them to avoid enemy fire, especially snipers. It's kinda pointless to have those holes just to acomodate weapons, and still be prone to get a rocket up yours...

Nahand
28th Jun 2004, 12:46 PM
... yet another thing i forgot: don't use folders named after your map in the .ZIP file. It's a complete pain in the @$$ to have to go manually move the files to the correct directories. At least use a 'Maps' folder or something...

Uncle_Bob
28th Jun 2004, 04:30 PM
O.K. you panned that then!

First of all I hadn't realised bmp pics took that long to load, sorry.
Face style, oh well.
The box 'canyon' ... I admit to being rubbish at out rockfaces and yes it looks kind of boring.
What if i had three smaller bases instead of one big one. One would hold the flag and the other two would be where everyone respawned, there then less chance of an enemy killing you while you have the flag because they respawned close to you.
Ill certainly rethink the trench system and make it horizontal to base.
Bomb holes will be deeper.
Whats this construction in the middle you are talking about puting in?
I agree the walls are two thin, this is a thing I have only just realised as it was one of the problems with my other map.
The flag base is a rubbish shape, the texture... well i wanted it to stand out and couldnt think of any thing else.
Sorry about the folder thing, I am still new to map making. Also sorry to make you skip ET. Your points have been noted. Thanks ;) :lol:

Cobra Jet
28th Jun 2004, 05:05 PM
I think that you have a good idea of making a 2nd version. For the pathing is very easy, if you have any problem whit it just PM me here or at unrealplayground.com good idea! I really like that map.

SeeD_already_in_use
29th Jun 2004, 08:50 AM
Yeah, all hail the great master o' pathing o/

Cobra Jet
29th Jun 2004, 12:37 PM
Don't make fun of that please. All I whant is to help if I can, that's all.

Uncle_Bob
29th Jun 2004, 12:59 PM
I think that you have a good idea of making a 2nd version. For the pathing is very easy, if you have any problem whit it just PM me here or at unrealplayground.com good idea! I really like that map.

Yeah, Ill try to use the terrain ed to make the rock faces realistic and more interesting, and Ill have two bases for each side instead of one big one. It will probably take me ages though... :D

After the rebuild it hopefully won't be much like face at least not in gameplay.

Nahand
29th Jun 2004, 04:59 PM
Yeah, Ill try to use the terrain ed to make the rock faces realistic and more interesting, and Ill have two bases for each side instead of one big one. It will probably take me ages though... :D

After the rebuild it hopefully won't be much like face at least not in gameplay.

1. focus 1rst in architecture/gameplay elements, then in making the canyon pretty;
2. 2 bases for each side? Flag will be outdoor in the middle???
3. make 2, 3 or 1000 bases - if you keep the long, relatively unprotected middle area, it will always succomb to Facing World's biggest gameplay disaster: the uncanny ablility to make flag runs between bases a frustrating lucky rush avoiding projectiles/snipers. Man... i hate that... still... your call...

Uncle_Bob
30th Jun 2004, 10:26 AM
The two bases will be two smaller bunkers, one where everyone respawns and the other will hold the fag. This would give the player a chance to escape with the fag before all the other bots or people respawn. Ill put lots of cover in like bigger deeper bomb holes, boulders, rubble, small hills ect. The trenches themselves will be much more like real life as you suggested and much more intricate.

Nahand
30th Jun 2004, 02:44 PM
... if you're going to use 1 of the bunkers just for spawn while the other has the flag, be EXTREMELY CAREFULL with how you do it. Even some pro's sometimes don't work this right, and you can have 1 team cornering the other in their spawnlocation. Use at least 3 diferent facing exits, at multilevels...

Uncle_Bob
30th Jun 2004, 02:49 PM
Point noted Ill have to be real careful with this.

GRd (V)g@1224
11th Jul 2004, 12:28 PM
u mind if i take a look? :-)

Uncle_Bob
11th Jul 2004, 12:58 PM
u mind if i take a look? :-)

Go right ahead, I need all the feed back I can get!

GRd (V)g@1224
11th Jul 2004, 06:15 PM
k here it goes, the main thing that cought my attention is that the surrounding environment is a box what u could do is add some terrain around the whole thing, the next thing would be making the bases bigger there's not enought space to dodge the enemies attacks u always get stuck on something, doors need to be bigger also but i thing they are fine but the rest needs to be bigger maybe adding some type of light sources in the small passages in the field would be nice is to dark to see the enemie until is to late, torches might look nice with the theme also add more light sources in the 2 bases i saw light but i didn't see where it was coming from, the light textures need to be brighter setting the light textures to unlit or adding a light actor with high brightness and small radius does a better job sometimes and trim your doors and windows also add some supports to the walls makes it look better, but this is just me and what i think so no need to listen :D .

anyway the idea is good i hope it turns alright.

Uncle_Bob
12th Jul 2004, 10:25 AM
You are definately right about the box canyon. I might be either totaly rebuilding this from scratch or try and salvage what I have got. Personaly rebuilding sounds the better option. I will probably split each base into two, one for respawning and one for the fag and extend some of the base under ground. With more space there should be more room. I was also thinking wether I should put some torches or spotlights or something on the battle field as it seemed strange to have a brightly lit expance. I am surprised though that you didnt see the light sources in the bases as I did include them. Maybe the random error and unexplained HOM monster ate them? Iam currently making some other maps before restarting this one to learn a bit more and get some more experience. You can see shots of one over in the showcase, its DM-1-on1-metalic. Thanks for trying my map though! :D