PDA

View Full Version : Psychomorph`s Idea for INF


Psychomorph
14th May 2004, 05:06 PM
I saw some documentaries today and saw the guys shouldering the weapon, but never look over the sight. If they shoulder it, they always aim with the sight, but hold both eyes open.
Ok, in training it look always perfect, but in RL battles it is all different, but I don´t know how true that is.
So, I changed my Idea a little bit (rifle and pistol handling). Now it is closer to the actual INF, but still has the general parts of my Suggestion (like the movement stuff), but more simple and comfortable.



Rifle

http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/g36_aim.gif

1a: The “low ready” position, as I described you walk normal, sprint and jump. You do not see the weapon on the screen.

2a: If you are in “low ready” and fire, the soldier raises the weapon fast (to the shoulder, since “low ready” is kinda allready shouldered) and shoot without to aim. It is kinda an emergency option, where you are so f***ed up, that you forget to aim, or have no time to aim (you know, in RL they are often such situations, it is not all training). After your fire, the weapon will automatically move, after 2 seconds, to the “low ready” position again. If you use this feature while sprinting, your speed decreases to slower run.
Logical is, that you have a very short delay before you pull the trigger and you shoot unprecisely (cuz look over the sight).
Abilities:
- normal walk
- sprint (not run, cuz the rifle is in the right position for sprinting)
- using the “firekey” you do “quickfire without to aim.
- using the “right mouse key” you aim the weapon (-> 3a)
- leaning (much more effective than “shouldered weapon lean”)
- jumping:
--taping the “forward key” and “jump” makes a short leap forward (try it yourself, all possible in reallife)
--sprint forward (runup) and “jump” makes a strong leap forward (try it yourself, all possible in reallife)
--jumping while standing can be done like in reallife (jumping up 0,5 meters high), but it´s practically useless.

3a: Press the right mouse and you shoulder AND aim the weapon.
Professionals aim, but are able to keep both eyes opened and lower the weapon for better view (4a, we are able to do that in INF, you know).
As in INF you hold the altfire key to hold breath. Would be neat to have the soldier the left eye closed (or right). From the first perspective you see the weapon model snapping little bit closer to the eye (looks bigger). That simulates your view from only one eye. The bigger sight would be better for aiming and the “freeaim” ability and mouse sensitivity should be decreased (also for better aiming).
Abilities:
- slower walk
- slower run (let´s call it fast movement during combat)
- using the “firekey” you shoot
- holding the “right mouse key” you hold breath (like INF allready is), one eye closed, better aiming ability.
- leaning (is reduced in comparison to “Normal Mode”)
- (jumping is not possible, it´s not realistic to jump if you aim a weapon)




Pistol

http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/usp_aim.gif

5a: “Low ready” position, you do not see the pistol on the screen. Can sprint, jump and so on.
6a: If you fire without to aim, the soldier raises the pistol and fire (you know emergency stuff). Unpreciselly. Looks like you look over the pistol sight, not through. After your fire, the solder move the pistol to “low ready”, after 2 sec. Again. If you use this feature while sprinting, your speed decreases to slower run.
Abilities:
- normal walk
- sprint (not run, cuz the pistol is in the right position for sprinting)
- using the “firekey” you do quickfire without to aim.
- using the “right mouse key” you aim the pistol (-> 7a)
- leaning (much more effective than “aimed lean”)
- jumping:
--taping the “forward key” and “jump” makes a short leap forward (try it yourself, all possible in reallife)
--sprint forward (runup) and “jump” makes a strong leap forward (try it yourself, all possible in reallife)
--jumping while standing can be done like in reallife (jumping up 0,5 meters high), but it´s practically useless.

7a: If you press the altfire, you aim the pistol and are able to lower the pistol to have better view (8a we are able to do that in INF, you know).
Abilities:
- slower walk
- slower run (let´s call it fast movement)
- using the “firekey” you shoot
- holding the “right mouse key” you hold breath (like INF allready is), one eye closed, you bring the pistolsight closer to the eye, for better aiming ability.
- leaning (is reduced in comparison to “Normal Mode”)
- (jumping is not possible, it´s not realistic to jump if you aim a pistol)



Sniperrifle

http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/sniper_aim.gif
9a: The “low ready” position, as I described you walk normal, sprint and jump. You do not see the weapon on the screen.

10a: If you are in “low ready” and fire, the soldier raises the sniper fast to the shoulder and shoot without to aim. It is the single option, where you can fire a sniperrifle, without to aim through a scope ;). After your fire, the weapon will automatically move, after 2 seconds, to the “low ready” position again. If you use this feature while sprinting, your speed decreases to slower run.
Logical is, that you have a very short delay before you pull the trigger and you shoot unprecisely (cuz not aimed).
11a: Aim’n’Snipe.


Crouched Movement

http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/crouch_normal.gif

12a: Normal crouch, you crouch slow (13a), but if you “run”, you run crouched (14a).

http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/crouch_aimed.gif
15a: Aim crouch, you crouch slow (16a), “running” gives you just a little boost while crouched move (looks same as 16a, but the movement is little bit faster).

As you see on the pics, in the "normal crouch" your stance is lower, so you have more cover, even if you run, but to shoulder and aim a rifle and to have that low stance is not possible (not if you want to use the weapon), so if you crouch, aim the weapon and move, your stance is automatically higher. That gives you less cover. Try all that yourself, not sure, but I guess it is the "most" "realistic" way :D.



Prone:

If you prone in “Normal Prone Mode (7)” you see the weapon on the screen (-> 7), somebody know this from Vietcong:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/prone_aim.gif
You can crawl. Using the “run key” you crawl faster.
If you shoulder the rifle (8) you can´t crawl, just “move” a little bit to correct your position on the ground. If you aim a rifle you can´t move.
Aiming a pistol is same as shouldering the rifle, means you can correct your position while proning, but not move.



Alt Fire Key:
Activates scopes (for example if you have the G36, it has ironsight [holding right mose key] and a scope [using the alt fire key]), grenadelaunchers and bipods.



Weapon Switch:
I think it would be a nice feature, if you would switch from rifle normal mode, to pistol normal mode, but if you have the rifle shouldered and you switch to pistol, the pistol will be aimed automatically, it´s logical in a hot firefight, kinda SWAT like.


Well, I can forget it for INF, I guess, but does anybody maybe want to make a mod? :D

keihaswarrior
14th May 2004, 06:11 PM
I have always wanted a shoulder mode for scoped weapons. It would allow you to do better in CQB and you could spot sight easier because you don't have to bring the weapon back up from the hip everytime.

--You system left out hip shooting. Hip shooting seems like a viable tactic that soldiers use IRL, why did you leave it out?

yurch
14th May 2004, 07:44 PM
'Hip mode', for the most part, seems more awkward than 'shoulder firing' for most weapons.

Psychomorph
14th May 2004, 08:04 PM
@keihaswarrior:
Exactly. For example the PSG1, maybe it´s havier than a normal rifle, but there is no problem for you to use it as a normal rifle. Sometimes, when you have no time to pull the pistol, you can just shoulder the sniperrifle and shoot, it will save your life sometime. I saw this also in the movie "Sniper", not a good one, but it has this situation.


Well you are definitely able to use the rifle Hipped, but it would look stupid with pistols :D

Mostly you would use the weapon shouldered, i mean it is more comfortable to handle the recoil and it is really relaxed. Mostly you have the time to raise the weapon to the shoulder, but in RL they are ever situations where you can´t control the surprise, so sometimes you would be scared as hell and you would just "rock`n`roll" hipped. If we follow my ideas we can replace the "beat with buttstock" with the "shooting hipped" thing, but it would be hard to shoot preciselly. I would prefer no hipped shooting at all cuz we all are "professionals" ;)

Does anybody has logical arguments for having "hipped" in the game (byside what I have explained)?


@yurch:
Shouldered weapons look far more better and, most important, more professional. I think every soldier would use shouldered if he´s not crapping his pants and rocking from da hip in a to hot situation.
Maybe you have to use some weapons like an heavy MG from the hip (I saw on TV a battle in Iraq, they was an Iraqi shooting a russian heavy MG from da hip in fullauto).

Ok I will edit my Idea with a system for MG´s tomorrow.

L3d
14th May 2004, 11:51 PM
i remember myself having a idea .. bah foreget it , good pics btw

Crowze
15th May 2004, 03:23 AM
Normally in a combat situation, you'd keep the rifle at the shoulder at all times unless you are running. So, if you think of what you call 'hipped' in-game as 'shouldered', you've got nothing to do.

keihaswarrior
15th May 2004, 03:50 AM
I like this idea overall. I could nitpick the specifics, but in general it would be a good move for INF IMO.

Most of the weapons' "aimed" mode seem to fit more in-line with this system's "shoulder" mode. An actual "aim-mode" would probably have the sights closer to the screen to look more like what the actual sight picture a soldier would see IRL.

I think less hipshooting would be a good thing anyway. I have always thought it looked rather silly to have trained soldiers doing, especially in INF.

Hurin
15th May 2004, 06:14 AM
Kool, psychomorph im compltly with you on this one.

Psychomorph
15th May 2004, 07:25 AM
Posted by Crowze:
Normally in a combat situation, you'd keep the rifle at the shoulder at all times unless you are running.
You´re right, but if you look at pic 1 you see it is kinda shouldered, but not held straight. You hold the weapon shouldered and straight, only if you want to shoot, aim, or overall prepare for direct combat. Pic 1 is kinda passive combat posture.

So, if you think of what you call 'hipped' in-game as 'shouldered', you've got nothing to do.
If you correct the weapon position on the 3rd person model, than you would have shouldered instead of hipped, hope the INF team will do this, but my idea is about changing that at all, cuz holding the weapon straight the whole time is kinda silly and isn´t realistic.
INF is not a fast game as UT, in UT you shoot near every second, so shouldered weapons only looks ok, but in INF you have to wait, walk, run sometimes without instant enemie contact and it would be more realistic to have the "Normal Mode".

I imagine how it would look ingame. You spawn and see soldiers holding the weapon like in "normal mode" (pic 1) (can´t exactly describe this in english words), they start to move, than, at enemie contact they shoulder the weapon, you see that someone aim and shoot, than, they "unshoulder" it again and sprint for cover.
That would be awesome, I mean it would look realistic, like you see soldiers acting during battle in RL.


@keihaswarrior:
Why exactly you want the hipped mode, can you describe (no criticism from me, I just want to know the arguments)?

As I said it´s possible to drop the "beat with buttstock" option if the weapon is unshouldered/unaimed, but implement the "hipped shooting mode". It will look ingame (by press the "fire key"), like the soldier starts to move the weapon in the hipped position from the "Normal Mode" and shoot. After that (if you stop shooting), he takes the weapon to the "Normal Mode" again. (hope the description is clear enough)


@Hurin & kehaswarrior:
Thanks a lot. I´m glad someone likes my suggestions.

Stinkmarder
15th May 2004, 09:56 AM
Good suggestions, Psychomorph. I'd like to see that implemented in INF.

Some additions:
- AFAIK your 'normal mode' is commonly called 'low ready' position and your 'shouldered mode' is called 'high ready' position. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- Why no low ready position for pistols (held with both hands, pointed downwards) ?
It would give you enough room to move even in tight spaces and would let you get in 'high ready' in fractions of a second. (AFAIK it's also used IRL.)
- Hip mode should be in too. Makes sense for a rushed assault. (even if I've never seen one doing this in INF)

Nice drawings BTW! :)

Psychomorph
15th May 2004, 01:01 PM
Posted by Stinkmaster:
AFAIK your 'normal mode' is commonly called 'low ready' position and your 'shouldered mode' is called 'high ready' position. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thx, I ever searched for exact words to explain that, but I would still prefer "shouldered" and so on, so everybody can understand exactly.

Hip mode should be in too. Makes sense for a rushed assault. (even if I've never seen one doing this in INF)
But if you just "shoulder" the rifle without to aim and "run", it is kinda rushed assault (I would say so :) ).


And you said what I forgot to mention. If you switch to "Normal Mode" you can have enough space in tight spaces. ;)

Beppo
15th May 2004, 01:03 PM
As Crowze already said, hipped is more or less the shouldered mode you are looking for. At least for 1st person. RL shouldered looks almost exactly as the standard hipped in any FPS out there, including INF. Sure the 3rd person model would need an adjustment, but only 3rd person, not 1st. Pure hip like the current 3rd person anims look like should be possible too, but the problem is that you would not be able to actually see your weapon on the screen while doing so. In RL you would see the front part of your weapon while hipped but not in a game that is limited to a flat monitor.
During the development of INF we had a shouldered mode implemented already. The weapon was more or less between the current hip and aim position and was not really needed in the first place. The implementation of the free aim area made it then totally useless and so we fully scratched the idea. Using the free aim area to move the sights down while aimed to get a better overview was enough and so another position wasn't needed anymore.
Again, hip in-game is more like shouldered in RL from 1st person... not in 3rd obviously.

Psychomorph
15th May 2004, 01:23 PM
@Beppo:
I understand that. The "hipped" is kinda "shouldered", but sometimes it doesn´t look like that in INF. I would just correct the 3rd model a little little bit. In the first person view, you should see the weapon placed more to the middle to give the feel of "shouldered" (but not exactly the middle) and you should see more from the rearparts of the weapon. You know INF doesn´t only has to be realistic, but also look realistic (it looks good, but could be corrected, maybe as I described).
The "freeaim" while using the sight should definitely stay, ever. But that´s realistic, namely to be able to look over the sight (shouldered) and to lower the gun (aiming, but using the freeaimability with the mouse).

In general it would stay as it actually is in INF, but optically corrected. And if (I just say IF) you guys redo the ironsights a little bit, so they are more life like, that would make the weapon models (the weapon sights), while aiming, a little bit bigger (on the screen), so sometimes (like rushing) you would need the "shouldered".


Ok, long speech, but short sense... I understand you Beppo and am agreed (well never critized that part at all, just the looking).


Posted by keihaswarrior:
I like this idea overall. I could nitpick the specifics, but in general it would be a good move for INF IMO.
You say you can nitpick some things. Go on :)




P.S. I edited the "Crouch Stuff" in the first post. Check it out, if you want ;)

tomcat ha
16th May 2004, 11:24 AM
very nice stuff

Psychomorph
16th May 2004, 02:49 PM
Suggestion Nr.2 moved to the first post as final.

Anonymous_[FOOL]
16th May 2004, 03:05 PM
All this stuff looks very interesting - I'd love to see it in a future version of INF!

MP_Duke
16th May 2004, 05:30 PM
Neato diagrams

Psychomorph
17th May 2004, 09:34 AM
Sorry if I bomb yo up with my stuff, but the pics above weren´t enough for me, to sense how that would look in INF. Now that is as close as I am able to do (As real as it gets ;) :D):

http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/INF_new.gif

low ready:
- You walk normal, sprint, jump, lean.

low ready & fire:
- If you start to fire, the soldier raises his weapon and shoots wihtout to aim with the sight.
- If done while sprinting, your running speed decreases hard.

aim:
- You walk slower, you can only run, lean is reduced, you can`t jump.
Pushing the right mose, the soldier is shouldering and aiming the weapon.
- Both eyes opened, so better view/fov.
- Free aim as in actual INF (maybe not that hard).

aim & holding right mose key:
- You can only walk very slow, can lean and duck, can´t jump.
- The soldier is closing one eye, holding the breath and brings the sight closer to the eye.
- No freeaim, cuz the head and weapon become kinda one part.
- Reduced mouse sensitivity.
p.s.
I would prefer to have a little little zoom while "aim & holding right mose", cuz that would simulate the reduced view with one eye and would be better for shooting on long distances.
That wouldn´t be a zoom at all, it happens instantly. You can observe similar thing if you close one eye (not the zoom, but that something changes in you view).

Almost
17th May 2004, 10:16 AM
I have to say, this is probably the best presented idea I've ever seen on these forums. Very easy to understand. If it ever makes it into Infiltration remains to be seen, but you argue your points very well.

It's still very early in the process and it's a bit too early to say if it's going to be implemented or discarded, just like every other ideas presented and discussed on this forum. A lot of the ideas around here are are good, some are bad and a small minority are just crap. Every idea can't be implemented, but this one is certainly worth a debate sometime during the dev. process, depending on what direction everything takes. But that's just my opinion. As usual, there are about the same amount of opinions as there are people here and mine doesn't really carry any weight ;)

Psychomorph
17th May 2004, 10:36 AM
Thx.

I started with the pics, cuz words are to weak to give a real image how that would be in the game.

I don´t really expect to see it in INF, but I hope so. I had this idea a longtime ago, but never posted it, cuz I didn´t thought it would make any sense.
Don´t know why I posted that (was confused :D). But maybe some parts of this idea are usefull. Who knows, maybe somone want´s to make a mod :D (but I want it for INF), or mutator (would be too complicated I guess).

The general problem with this Suggestion is, that it is too huge. I mean if ppl say "plz make Desert Eagle skin black!" it is no prob to implement it in the game. Some small suggestions can be implemented too, but that stuff I´ve made... I´m not part of the Infiltration team, so I can nearly forget to see this in INF :(
I would love to play a game with those features, I dream of that, but I have no clue making mods and similar things, and that makes me sad, mad ->:mad:

So, I expect nothing... not really.


P.S. I ask myself, if they will be a big suggestion in this forums and "everybody" would like to have it ingame, hmm, what would the INF team do?

Beppo
17th May 2004, 01:28 PM
Your last pics (and the diagrams before did that too already) show the system we (or at least I and some other team members) have in mind for quite some time too. As said earlier, we had a 'low-ready' position implemented already that needed other 3rd person anims and some other changes and so was discarded later on. The system we have in mind will take this all even a bit further (if possible with the engine).

To the slight zooming while controling your breathing... well the INF AimView mutator does this already and can be found on the Mutators, Camos, Speechpacks... (http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=126468) thread for the case you missed it.

Psychomorph
17th May 2004, 04:56 PM
Posted by Beppo:
The system we have in mind will take this all even a bit further (if possible with the engine).
Ahh, that sounds great, and "a bit further" sounds even better. :)

To the slight zooming while controling your breathing... well the INF AimView mutator does this already.
Yes, that´s nice. Even if they were no zoom, the weapon sight dimension is good enough. Very comfortable to aim. Now, we need better weapon models and all is good. ;)


I´m very interessted how you, or the others, as developers think about the movement suggestions I´ve made. Sure you like the 2.9 movement better, cuz you worked that out. But I think, that your movement in combat also depends on how you hold your weapon. And that is what my Suggestion is about, the movement was the general part. I think it is realistic enough and comfortable as I think.

I repeat:
Walking is standart. Holding the "run key" while in low ready, you sprint. Holding the "run key" while aiming, you just run.
Same with crouch, in low ready you kinda sprint, slower, but crouched. If you aim, you move just faster.


I think that is very comfortable, cuz you have just one key to hold, and operatiog the rifle (low ready, aim) is very easy and you do it during the game often enough, to handle this system fast and precisely.

Beppo
18th May 2004, 04:54 AM
There are two ways:
a) player can do any action he/she likes at any given time. This resulting in specific things that happen. Ie. the weapon will go down to hip, scope view ends, extra stamina hit aso.
b) player is restricted in his/her actions based on the current movement and aim mode.

INF is more the type a) atm but has elements from type b) too.
Your version is more type b) with a bunch of restrictions that do work as games like CoD show.
A mix of both would be the thing I would prefer. This has to be looked at during the development what will work best in specific situations.

Psychomorph
18th May 2004, 08:44 AM
I understand that, I thought about that too. I thought your arguments would be (they are) like "if you are in low ready, you are forced to sprint, but can´t run as while aiming", or "holding the run key to run is bad".

My argument is, that if you run while aiming, you do it exactly because you are aiming, if you would not aim (low ready), why you should have the slow run? Wouldn´t you rather run fast (sprint, or something)?
I know, that in RL you are able to aim, or shoulder the weapon and sprint as HELL! All possible IRL, but it is something you never see real soldier are doing, cuz it makes no sense. It is more comfortable to low ready the gun.
That means, the slower run is just for aiming sake, to be able to aim accurate, but not to run fast (that´s why I called it fast movement during combat).
The sprinting while low ready is just kinda standart "fast" run as soldiers do that often. It´s not f***in fast, but fast enough.


On the other hand, the INF has simmilar movability as AA (sorry for the comparison).
You have walk/run and sprint. In AA I have absolutely no preb to handle this, but cuz it was aiming as a separate option where you move slow.
In INF you have the walk/run option double (hip and aim), maybe that`s why it is not as comfortable as in AA.


Lets make a shema:

My Idea:
[...........Aim]---walk-----------run
[hold breath]-walk
[.Low Ready]-----walk---------------sprint (run fast)

INF:
[...........Aim]---walk-----------run--------sprint
[............Hip]---walk-----------run--------sprint


AA:O:
[..........Aim]-walk-------------------sprint
[Shouldered]---walk-----------run---sprint


What we see. The INF sprint is faster than AA:O, or My Idea, but eats more stamina.
If you compare My Idea and INF you see that INF got walk (hip/aim) the same, also the sprint, during both moving modes is possible.

My Idea is to make Walk standart, cuz it is most used in battles, you run only if needed (that´s why I like the Rainbow Six movability, only sprint leaks).
Run is due to aim slower, but in Low-Ready it is much faster (as I said, why slow run if you can fast).
My System (I don´t call it perfect, or better than INF!) depends on your weapon:
- While Aim, you are slow, but accurate and concentrated. You are more silent too, cuz it is a combat mode and you lean reduced.
- While Low Ready, you walk fast (maybe you can make it a slow run?), you run fast (sprint) and you lean wide (cuz you don´t need to hold any weapon stability).

Why hold run key?
I prefer the hold run key cuz you can control your movement better (I noticed that during many games), you are more aware of how your movement is.

I played INF now (ít is great, I can´t say anything else), Map was ManorFarm (one of my favorites, Love CQB in buildings).
I aim, I walk. I plan to run some steps and walk again, to lean on the edge. So I have to push the run key two times (with hold run key you would just push and release when needed).
Than, I run over the place and have to sprint. I push sprint, after the release, I run hipped, ok than just push right mose again to aim and run key to walk (if needed).

I imagine that with my system.
I aim and walk, I plan to run a bit to lean on the edge. I hold the run key and release that for walking, so I can move for better lean position.
Than I run over the place. I run holding the run key. I decide to sprint, the only thing I have to do is to push the right mose key, to disable aim (switch to low ready) and I sprint automatical.
After I leaved the place, I only have to push right mose key again and I run. If needed, release the run key, to be accurate, slow and silent.




All my suggestions could be made in a mutator (I guess. You should know it better), I would like, but I´m not able to make the “low ready” animation, I could try, but I don´t know how and so on. The changes would not be too hard. I also would change the weapon posture while aiming a little bit (closer to the view), like the 2.9 Famas, I think it is the most perfect weapon view in INF, especially if you aim with the AimView Mutator, I really enjoy using the famas and the animation if you change the fireing rate is great. ;)


P.S. thx for reading, lol.

P.S.2 I´ve moved "Suggestion Nr.2" to the top, as final, sorry if other answers/posts makes less sense (if they make).

-RoMe-infers
18th May 2004, 01:43 PM
Very good ideas psychomorph, really. I would love the shouldered way..
However we should be able to jump when weapon aimed, it should just bring the wepon back to the hip.

the zoom idea (when hold breath) is good too but should occurs in a very slightly way, not instantly cuz it would look strange to have suddenly the iron sight a bit bigger. And, when holding the breath, the weapon should keep freeaim but with reduced range.

Finally, the movement should be IMHO the same as in 2,9. It has been really well thought. (the "automatically sprinting when unaimed if you were running idea" would create a lot of confusion, movement system must be realistic but intuitive too)

ps: i hope 'intuitive' is english too,if not, 'instinctive' is maybe?

Last thing, the snipe should not be able to fire in shouldered position. If not it would became a sort of "oh yeaa! Unscope Headshot with AWP!" ala cs... I woudn't like that :D

Anonymous_[FOOL]
18th May 2004, 02:42 PM
I would like to keep the "run" speed of movement for the low ready position; although it moght not be done in real life, jogging is a nice alternative to sprinting if you know there's no enemy around and yet do not want to waste too much stamina!

Beppo
18th May 2004, 04:14 PM
Jogging needs to stay in for shouldered due to the stamina usage. It makes perfect sense to have the weapon in the shouldered position and to jog at the same time. Aiming blocks your view and so shouldered or low-ready would be the only options I have to 'see' a bit more of the screen... and while doing so i just don't want to sprint my ass off... I want to jog and not walk in many situations. In addition a hold key is always something that is pretty impractical if you need to hold it for more than just a second. One finger would be tied to a key during the whole time you jog around. Same goes for prone crawling and crouching and for aiming your weapon... I cannot understand the folks that still use this stuff as hold keys cause it really starts to hurt if you play more than just a few minutes (ask your doc, he will tell you that a constant pressure will not be good for your knuckles). So hold keys/buttons should only be something you use for actions that are used not so often, not for long durations and for actions that simulate an interaction with in game objects to 'lock' one finger to actually do something (ie laptop usage, pickups and doors aso).

But we have another design for 'speeds' already in mind, so no need to discuss the number of possible movement speeds or number of keys needed for this here. ;)

Psychomorph
18th May 2004, 05:23 PM
Posted by Beppo:
and while doing so i just don't want to sprint my ass off...
I agree on that.

In addition a hold key is always something that is pretty impractical
Also agree on that, for crouch and so on, in that case also for running.
But the point, why I talked about hold run key is, cuz running is in RL also something you do often, but not very long. You do it in short stages, but never constant, because you never run pointles around (no matter how slow), like in most games (sadly also in INF). Mostly, you walk (in different walking speeds).

IRL you run, if you need to change your location, from cover to cover. You never run constant around, that´s why Walking is your absolutely standart, cuz walking is "no action" (only if you are really tired), but running and sprinting is an action, an action you do mostly in short impuses.

IRL you run, if you aim, or shoulder your weapon, sometimes you run while Low Ready, just because you don´t want to sprint, or spend your energy in sprinting outbursts (so I agree fully on the case you still need running while low ready).

IRL sprinting is something you can do while aiming, but makes only sense if you just hold your gun, no matter how (for professionals that means low ready). Sprinting is a very short, but fast action, like running, but you need in battle a very fast sprint, it saves lifes.



IRL, if swats and sodliers assault buildings, never run inside, never constant (only if they need to pass rooms fast without to expect enemies). They walk slow, or fast, but they walk (sometimes this fast walk looks like run, but is not really a run, it doesn´t matter for a game).
So, IF walk/... toggle, than walk/fast-walk toggle, that is IRL, but running is something you do in short (or longer) "bursts".


I have just an idea:
- If you aim, you toggle between slow walk (sneaking) and fast walk (assaulting). You have a separate holding "run/sprint" key which you use to run (the fastest move while aiming). You hold the key and it works as in INF, you start to run.
- If you are in low-ready, you toggle between normal walk and an easy/light/slow run (which is not a real run). If you hold the "sprint/run" key, you sprint fast (as in INF).


Maybe it is too complicated for the game, but it was just an idea I had during typing this post.
But what really botheres me is, that INF is still too fast, no I don´t mean the "speed" (soldier are able to run fast enough), but the fact, that everybody is jogging around, and that is not the case IRL.
Ok, you can say "let them jog, their stamina will show", but fact is, those players are successfull, cuz they surprise you often.
A lame game is definitely not what I want, but I want to redifine the moving stages a little bit.

I think to toggle to a fast walk, which I often saw swats and soldiers doing during near every combat situation constantly (if they don´t need to change cover fast, which needs run/sprint), would be a great thing.


- Sneaking while aiming would be a counterpart to low-ready normal walk.
- Fast walk while aiming would be the counterpart to the easy/light run while in low ready.
- Running while aiming would be the counterpart to sprinting while in low ready.

So I still think your speed depends on how you hold your weapon, that is exactly shown in a documantation I saw about US soldiers during a training in Iraq.
The trainer said: "If you guys assault a room, or/and move aimed, you should use a special way of walking" (which looks a little bit funny).
He continued: "You should hold the thighs (is it the right word for "Oberschenkel"?) tight, so you can walk fast, without to be forced to run, which is great for your accurasy. ;) (that would determine the hard wobble while running, but be still much faster than walking).
So if you would run aimed, it would be a real counterpart to the sprint.


[...........aim]--1---2-----3
[hold-breath]--1
[..low-ready]---4----5------6

1: sneak
2: fast walk
3: run

4: normal walk
5: slow run (jog)
6: sprint





Posted by Anonymous[FOOL]:
I would like to keep the "run" speed of movement for the low ready position; although it moght not be done in real life, jogging is a nice alternative to sprinting if you know there's no enemy around and yet do not want to waste too much stamina!
Yup, as said above, I´m agreed with that.


Posted by Beppo:
But we have another design for 'speeds' already in mind, so no need to discuss the number of possible movement speeds or number of keys needed for this here. ;)
Ohhh, plz tell, plz tell! I´m a concept whore, I want to know! :)




Posted by -RoMe- infers:
the zoom idea (when hold breath) is good too but should occurs in a very slightly way, not instantly cuz it would look strange to have suddenly the iron sight a bit bigger.
But if you close one eye instantly, so the "view change" appears instantly. You wouldn`t close the right (or left) eye slow (which would look slightly) if you need to aim.
Also the zoom should be very very little. In the AimView mutator I think the zoom is byfar to big, but the dimension of the weapon model is absolutely great (ever wished that). So I would suggest, to increase the weapon model dimension while aiming at all and to make the dimension while holding breath as it is in the AimView mutator. The zoom wouldn´t be that important, but the reduced freeaim and mouse sensitivity would be great for accurassy.

Psychomorph
19th May 2004, 07:46 PM
Ok, I go on.


I find, it would be very useful to have a "looking key". What I mean is, if you crouch, but especially prone, your mouse sensitivity is very low (logical, limmited movability), but it would be quite useful to hold a key, where you can turn you head around, very fast. That option would just give you a chance to make some looks around.
Sometimes you don´t want to change your dirction, it is to lame to make a crawl turn, often you stuck with your weapon if you try to turn while prone, but the "look around" option would be godlike (if it doesn´t allready exist, than I have to wake up, lol).
I think it would be good, to use the "Use key" as that option. Cuz the use key is only in use if you open doors, windows, collect ammo`n`stuff, but in situations, where you need the look around option, it is not in use.



I´m not a full weapon expert, so it is more of a question:
I love how the scopes behave in INF (never was glad with it in all other games).
For example the spain is using the G36E as standart rifle, which has the scope, but byside just a weak ironsight.
Since the Acog doesn´t zoom that much I could imagine using the optic sight as a normal sight, also on near directions (hold the second eye opened would let you aim with the scope, but also would let you see the surronding).
In INF you have the acog as sniperclass and it is quite difficult to aim on close ranges, cuz if you move, it is jumping around to much.

My question is, is it in RL possible to use it as a normal sight, or is it IRL more of a snipertool, so I´m forced to snipe? Ok, ingame that would be maybe a balance problem, but I just want to know.



Theres also one thing, I find important:
You have a good freeim if you aim the weapon in INF, but if you crouch, I noticed the freeaim sensitivity is lower. The view turning speed should stay as low as it is, of cource, BUT the freeaim itself (only the movement of the weapon in the middle radius of the screen) should be as fast as while standing, because if you crouch, you have the same ability to aim the weapon (freeaim), only your body turning speed (the turn of the whole view) is more limmited.
While proning, also your freeaim is limmited, so it is good in the actual INF.

Beppo
19th May 2004, 08:55 PM
The turning speed is based on the stance. While standing you can turn your view faster than while kneeling and again faster than while prone.
This simulates the turning in general, means your arm, shoulder and torso movement too. Not only the ability to rotate your body.
The freeaim has nothing that makes it special turn-speed-wise. The arms, shoulders and part of the torso needs to be rotated no matter if within the free aim area or not. And this is simply easier the more 'space' my arms do have (stance).

Psychomorph
20th May 2004, 07:13 AM
That your view is turning slower while kneeling is logical, my point was only the turn of the weapon (freeaim). I thought the freeaim is not the turn of the body, but only of your arms and weapon. If you kneel, I find you can turn your arms and weapon as fast as while standing, only the turn of the whole view (which is your body) turns slower (which is logical as I said and should stay as it is).

But maybe I´m mistaken.

gal-z
21st May 2004, 02:10 PM
It's possible to run at almost max speed with weapon shouldered and ready to fire.
I don't think firing should automatically raise the weapon, but rather you should be forced to raise the weapon before firing (or have it shoot the ground if u don't raise it).
You can shoot like in the attachment pretty accurately to 10-20m at a man target (accurately = good chance of first shot hitting) and somewhat accurately while running very fast (at 10-20 meters).
With lots of practice I suppose u can hit targets accurately at even longer ranges (30-50m) while standing.

Beppo
21st May 2004, 03:16 PM
yeah it's like the old revolver shooting ... you automatically point with your trigger finger at the spot you are aiming at.
This can be trained to be even more accurate and you need a bit of training before it gets 'automatic' for rifles too due to the fact that you need both arms/hands work together. But 30-50m shots that should only hit a man height target somewhere in the upper torso area shouldn't be a problem this way while standing and even while walking slowly. The general direction would be pretty accurate and with a bit of training even the 'pitch' adjustment to hit a specific body height.

Psychomorph
21st May 2004, 05:35 PM
Posted by gal_z:
It's possible to run at almost max speed with weapon shouldered and ready to fire.
Fully agreed. I also mentioned this often. So Maybe it would be good, to have in low ready and aimed the same movement speeds, so if you run fast (or sprint), you can do it with aimed weapon, but it would cost more stamina, so you have to disable the aim by yourself.


I don't think firing should automatically raise the weapon, but rather you should be forced to raise the weapon before firing (or have it shoot the ground if u don't raise it).
Also agreed, I would prefer to have not that automatical stuff, but you have to do it all by yourself. So if you want to aim, press a key.
I especially like the idea to fire to the ground if fireing in low ready, so you have to be more aware of what you doing with the weapon, like IRL.


You can shoot like in the attachment pretty accurately to 10-20m at a man target (accurately = good chance of first shot hitting) and somewhat accurately while running very fast (at 10-20 meters).
With lots of practice I suppose u can hit targets accurately at even longer ranges (30-50m) while standing.
It is likei n Americas Army, and i like it in that game, that you can shoot that good even if you run.
One guy I know, who served in army, said that americas army game got it the most right.
Well INF has that stuff too, but you are forced to aim. If you hip, the huge freeaim doesn´t allow that.

I ask myself it the devs are planning to implement that stuff in INF?


The funny thing is, I made a headshot today, with an semi MP5 on 10m disance, from hip. But I think in hipped (or shouldered as we actually say), you have too much freeaim, so it is near impossible to shoot accurate. The only thing that works in INF in that case is to shoot as fast as you can, IRL you would spend 1 or 2 bullets doing that.




http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/Shouldered M16.jpg
http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/1.jpg

I have 100 of suggestions I can´t post them all, but one of my thoughts were, to have the shouldered as in the picture.
Soldiers are able to look over the sight and shoot straight. Eith the real view you have both eyes opened, but you see the weapon with the right eye from the rear up and with the left eye you see the weapon on the right side. Both weaponviews are kinda transparent (cuz two different eye views). All in all you see two transparent weapons in one view, lol.
And I´m sure this kind of view can be done with new engines, the problem is it would look terrible.

A good way is to combine the two views to one (screen) and to define the logical posture/origin of the weapon, that would look more or less as on the pic I´ve posted!
That is not a real just shouldered posture, it is kinda semi aimed posture.

Maybe I have to go on with my original Idea and use the alt fire key to go from low-ready to this shouldered "semi aimed" thing and holding the alt key would close the left eye, so you look through the sight.

But to be able to use the semi aimed as effective as IRL, the freeaim should be limmited as possible and slower (the turning speed of the whole view should stay fast), to guarantee accurate shooting.

Aiming the sight with one eye should still have the freaim, but limmited, to be able to lower the weapon for greater fov (similar as in INF).



Ahh, damn it is so complicated, it is really hard to implement a very true to life aiming in a game.

Beppo
21st May 2004, 06:13 PM
*snip*
It is likei n Americas Army, and i like it in that game, that you can shoot that good even if you run.
One guy I know, who served in army, said that americas army game got it the most right.
Well INF has that stuff too, but you are forced to aim. If you hip, the huge freeaim doesn´t allow that.

I ask myself it the devs are planning to implement that stuff in INF?

Try to hold your weapon steady while running... you aren't really that accurate. A fast walk or slow jog is ok. But not while running (fast jog, no sprint). It is enough for close targets and you are able to do so in INF too.
The freeaim area is not the thing that makes it harder 'at hip' (its actually the same as during aim). It is the harder weapon bobing and the harder recoil that makes it more difficult to shoot from 'the hip' in INF.

*snip*
The funny thing is, I made a headshot today, with an semi MP5 on 10m disance, from hip. But I think in hipped (or shouldered as we actually say), you have too much freeaim, so it is near impossible to shoot accurate. The only thing that works in INF in that case is to shoot as fast as you can, IRL you would spend 1 or 2 bullets doing that.
I guess you need much more training then ;)
It is easy to fire very accurate shots from the hip while standing or moving slowly within INF. Sure you have no crosshair... but you have a weapon model that points towards where it is aiming and firing at.

Psychomorph
21st May 2004, 07:05 PM
I definitely need more training in hip shooting, because I never use it ;) only if thers a guy 6 meters away I spray from hip, but if they are 10m I aim if possible.

Well I ment you can fire very accurate without to use sights at all, the accurate if running was just to mention that you still fire forward (p.s. I like to diss pseudo realistic shooters like Raven Shield, if I say "but IRL the gun is still fireing forward" lol).

Aou are definitely aren´t that accurate while run, but fact is that you use a special way of running (or walking) if you aim and shoot (sure this method makes you move a little bit slower). You don´t run like a sportsman who is making huge leaps. You do many steps and many hintereinander, to keep bobbing low (that´s the special way of walking I spoke about some posts ago).
In INF, if you run, the bobbing seems to me like you do not use this special way of moving, but just run, that would be fully ok with low ready (cuz you do not need to aim), but aimed, or shouldered needs this method (I guess).



You see the weapon model, but how you can assume where it is aiming at? Ok, if you make some shots, or if you see the weapon not to hardo n the left side, or on the right, but if you aim (look) around, you weapon is moving around, you can`t keep it centered, like you would be able to do it IRL.
Sure training makes you better, but are you able to use that that effective as IRL?

Beppo
21st May 2004, 08:05 PM
hintereinander = in a row ;)

... the weapon model has its own axis if you look at it from the back to the muzzle... follow this line and you know where the shot ends up. Rifles are long and weapons using a suppressor are pretty long too. This makes a perfect 'aiming device' for 'hip'.
Go to the shooting range and do some 25 meter target practice this way. You need one or two shots to hit the target in the center area... with some minutes of training you will be able to hit directly with the first.

Hurin
22nd May 2004, 11:08 AM
This is deffiintly the best idea ive heard in a while. Although i dont know much about modding id be glad to help in any possible way. Ive read some basic faq's and i think i could pick up on it if you need any help at all.
-Skillz

Psychomorph
22nd May 2004, 04:57 PM
Hey, doesn´t that look like Infiltration? :D
http://kenoshapolice.com/images/swat.gif

Hurin
23rd May 2004, 08:25 AM
I have a couple of ideas to add. First of all what if you can jump/sprint and all that stuff in aim mode your weapon will simply go back to normal mode.
The other idea i had was that if someone tried to shoot in normal mode it would be the equivalent of hipping the weapon and it would shoot at non targeted location at the center if the screen at highly reduced accuracy. This seems useless but in a close quarter run this would prove highly useful and is a realistic tactic.

Beppo
23rd May 2004, 11:27 AM
I have a couple of ideas to add. First of all what if you can jump/sprint and all that stuff in aim mode your weapon will simply go back to normal mode.
...see current INF...
The other idea i had was that if someone tried to shoot in normal mode it would be the equivalent of hipping the weapon and it would shoot at non targeted location at the center if the screen at highly reduced accuracy. This seems useless but in a close quarter run this would prove highly useful and is a realistic tactic.
no way... center of screen = crosshair ... free aim like it is at hip at the moment...

Psychomorph
23rd May 2004, 01:38 PM
Freeaim is the best, the gun is shooting where the barrel is pointing at, but I would prefer a limited freeaim overall.
For example if you have a 45cm (in diagonal) monitor (sorry don´t know how to tell an in german called 19Zoll monitor :D), you would have from the middle of the screen 1,5 cm radius freeaim zone (in INF it is horizontally 1,5, but not vertically), that would be realistic enough (I guess), like IRL it would be easy enough to shoot unaimed in close distances, but not to difficult to aim on larger distances.
You allready can aim (sense) in INF good enough from hip, but the limmited freeaim would be even easier and would better simulate if you "shoulder" the weapon and try to get accurate shots.

Because if you shoot unaimed IRL, you would try to reduce the natural freeaim as much as possible, to place the shots in the center of your natural view, due to natural 3D sight. (lol sorry to explain this in formal english is not easy for me).

mat69
23rd May 2004, 02:19 PM
I think you shouldn't make aiming easier if your weapon is hipped. It's easy enough right now if you train it.
Btw. I think it's generally called 19" display, 19 inch ;)

Psychomorph
23rd May 2004, 05:57 PM
You re right, it shouldn´t be too easy, but I spoke more about shouldered no hipped. but it doesn´t really exist in INF, but as Beppo said, hipped is kinda shouldered at all :D

If we speak about RL, than it is more effective to shoot unaimed shouldered, than hipped, cuz you can sense better where you are pointing at.

Well I´m for realism, if it means better aiming while shouldered, than yes.
But if IRL it is easier to shoot unaimed, why all good trained ppls are shooting aimed? Even in CQB, cuz you can place the holes exact.
The big problem in games is, that in a game you do not care about spending bullets, in RL you respawn only at the beginning of the round, one time :D You would use IRL the sights more often than in a game. Also IRL you can place precise shots in the head or heart, which is not that easy in a game.

You can have a realistic game, but it is still not as realism is IRL.

In that case, I would make the use of ironsight more comfortable (but not easier than IRL), so activating the sights should be as IRL if you have the gun allready shouldered, that means 0.5 seconds (just lowering the head and closing one eye), the only work after that is pointing the front sight on the target. So no matter how realistic and easy unaimed shooting is, the use of ironsights should be better ;)



@mat69:
Ah Yes, "Zoll" means "inch" in English, thx :D

Beppo
23rd May 2004, 05:59 PM
The current free aim area is ok imo. Reducing its size would not allow you to ie track your target without the full view changing significantly. The free aim area allows you to look 'around' your weapon and choose the focus point you are looking at yourself. Same as IRL where you can quickly change your focus with your eyes and without the weapon or head moving at all. So limiting the area you can move the weapon in freely, is not something I personally would like to do.

.... the use of ironsights IS way better in INF as 'hipped/shouldered' ... in terms of accuracy of course

Psychomorph
23rd May 2004, 06:04 PM
Ok, right, but in that case, aiming from shouldered (if the weapon actually looks like shouldered, see the pics of M16`s I´ve posted) would be much easier than the actual 1st person "hipped look like position". If the weapon is more straight pointed, you could sense better where you are aiming at with the same freeaim as in actual INF ;)

And if shouldered aiming will be easier in INF as hipped, the ironsight should still stay better :D

P.S. lol, I write a book and Beppo is answering with some words. Beppo, say if I start to get on your nerves :D.

Hurin
23rd May 2004, 08:13 PM
What i meant by shoot at center of screen with reduced accuracy is that not only those the free aim keep you from knowing where you are shooting but there would a function the equivalent of weapon bob, might as well make it weapon bob on a grand scale severely reducing ur accuracy for anything outside of some probably 15 meters.

Beppo
24th May 2004, 04:52 PM
What i meant by shoot at center of screen with reduced accuracy is that not only those the free aim keep you from knowing where you are shooting but there would a function the equivalent of weapon bob, might as well make it weapon bob on a grand scale severely reducing ur accuracy for anything outside of some probably 15 meters.
Isn't that how it works now? Or have I misunderstood ya?

mat69
25th May 2004, 06:59 AM
Just don't change a working system, please. ;)
If you make the weapons shoulderd AND make shooting that way easier AND make aiming faster everything would be more easy.
Why should I use the sights of the FAMAS if I can shoot pretty precise without them, being shouldered? I would only use the sights if an enemy is far away. Maybe it's realistic this way but I think it would result in spray an pray.

You allways can make something more realistic, but making something "realistic" can result in unrealistic efects. You don't lose your life if you are dieing, i.e. you won't move in reality that way as you do in INF right now. You won't ever cross a field if you are pretty sure that a sniper is aiming at it, you will use cover if someone is shooting at the direction you come from, but in INF most just try to move on and aren't killed that often.
In short I think making aiming easier (as it is maybe in reality) can result in pretty unrealistic effects.

Psychomorph
25th May 2004, 07:35 AM
Shooting from shouldered wouldn´t be easier, as I said only the more straight looking first person weapon model would give you little more comfort in "sensing" where you are "aiming" at.

As I also mentioned I personally would prefer to have no hipped or shouldered, but instantly the aimed (which includes shouldered as well). And if I said faster aiming, I ment getting into the aimed position from the low ready position. IRL it is very fast (depends on the weapon you use), the difficulty is in the aiming itself (especially on longer ranges). This "difficulty" you have with the breath (and maybe handshake?) in INF and if you hold the right mose key, it takes a little time to have the sights really straight, as IRL. So I think INF got most things that are realistic and it works fine.

And I think in INF, if you run over a place where a "good" trained sniper player is waiting, you are dead, so it is all kinda realistic in INF.
In INF, if you play ucarefully, you get hurt and are slow`n`lame (leaked time of fun), so I think you, as player, are afraid enough of uncarefully playing, same as real soldier are afraid of risking their life.

@Famas:
Yes, A little problem we all know :D



I would prefer only the aimed position in INF, cuz why you should shoot unaimed IRL if you can aim fast? Lets see it from that direction.

I that case, some would disagree and would like to have shouldered, or hipped. And since INF doesn´t restrict players from things that are possible IRL, but not often used (such as shouldered, or hipped), It could be implemented in the game as options.

Not so good Suggestion:
One Idea I wouldn`t prefer is to be in low ready and aim with the "right mouse key", but shoulder the gun if you press the "left mouse key".
If you are in one of the modes, you use the left key to shoot, the right key to decativate, or hold breath.
You could be able to switch from shouldered directly to the aimed if you push the right mouse key double, or from aimed to shouldered, if you press the right key and instantly the left key.


But I would prefer to shoot with the firekey no matter if you aim, or low ready (as gal-z said), that would display the realism in INF`s manner and would force you to be more carefully with your weapon.

Good Suggestion:
The suggestion I would prerfer is, to have the low ready/aimed as standart, but you could be able to toggle with a special key the aiming modes (aimed/shouldered and maybe hipped if you want). With the right mouse key you would use the current aiming mode.
The current aiming mode would be displayed in the hud. Maybe the aimed mode would have green typo (color), the shouldered orange (as less accurate) and the hipped red typo (as even more inaccurate).
Maybe it would be good, to have this toggle on the "mousewheel up", "mousewheel down" stuff, cuz than you could toggle better between the 3 modes. If you aim a rifle, you could use the "mousewheel down" to unaim the rifle, but hold it to the shoulder (shouldered) and again wheel mouse down, to hip it (with all the 1st person animations). Using wheel up would shoulder the gun and than aim it again.
Using the wheel in low ready would just define the weapon aim mode you will have if you press the right mose key.

That would be awesome in using the acog assaultrifles. you could define with the mouse wheel your personal aiming position and could be able to use the rifle shouldered. From the shouldered you easily could be able to aim through the acog scope (using wheel up) and that would take even less time than to lift the weapon from low ready and aim the scope ;).

If you choose the aimed mode (as me), for comfort sake you would just use the right mouse key as in actual INF to aim, or low ready the gun.

On that point I have to point out, that it is even in the hipped mode difficult to hold the rifle straight for a longer time without to get tired arms, so for realism sake, you would need the low ready position even if you hip the gun ;).

gal-z
25th May 2004, 02:36 PM
Nice idea with the mousewheel, but I would still like the right mouse button to raise/lower the sights. Mousewheel should only choose if when unaimed u use hipped or shouldered (and maybe even add a "sideways" mode for super-fast sprints (running for cover or from nades) and moving around in non-dangerous areas, though it's not something important to have in inf).
Beppo, I understand your point of not wanting to reduce the freeaim zone, but on the other hand, the point of shouldering the rifle is to at least try to have it pointed where your eyes are looking.

Psychomorph
25th May 2004, 03:45 PM
@gal-z:
But the low ready (sideways) is RL ;). IRL you have the gun always low, you raise it fast, or in direct danger situations you have it shouldered (aimed). But you never see soldiers have the gun in high position the whole time, even if they are in battle. Your arms will get tired also in hipped. So you need the low position to be able to jog with lower stamina reduction, to move inside very close surroundings.

If you want to turn yourself, but you stand between two walls (or whatever), your weapon would crash, or you have to look down. In the actual hipped you see the weapon moving closer to your view, so you can move around those obstacles, but sometimes the weapon is too long, or you stand to close to the obstacle.

I think low ready is something INF has to go for, cuz it is reallife and is as easy to implement in the game as every other thing, maybe easier, due to the simpler 1st person animation.


IRL you see doing all that everytime. How it will be implemented (if it will be), than the devs will see how. It can be my way, it can be any other way.


@freeaim:
Kinda yes, IRL you rather turn your body if you aim, or point a gun, to keep the shouldered position comfortable (IRL it is harder to move around the gun and keep the weapon that straight as in INF).
But INF has the best solution to make guns inaccurate during unaimed use as in any other game.

You said you follow with your eyes the weapon if you want to point it somewhere you are looking at, but that is exactly the case in INF, the view (screen) is more of your head, or torso. Your real eyes are the eyes ingame, you look with your real eyes at something on the screen and move the mouse (weapon), to point the gun toward that target.
My personal critizism in the freeaim is mostly, that if you aim the weapon you would rather move your whole torso to stay on the target, but it is not that important.

Beppo
25th May 2004, 07:03 PM
... My personal critizism in the freeaim is mostly, that if you aim the weapon you would rather move your whole torso to stay on the target, but it is not that important.
Well you do. Your hands/arms and shoulders do rotate and this means that your upper torso is rotating too. The feet and legs do 'follow' if you hit the freeaim limit and start to rotate further. You do not aim just with your hands/arms without moving the upper torso... not even for pistols in RL. The hands/arms and shoulders form a steady system that does not tilt or twist while you swing from the left to the right.

MP_Lord_Kee
26th May 2004, 01:59 AM
All good points and interesting (and for once civilized). First of all, I love the current way the aiming and freeaim is implemented. It all seems fluid, realistic, somewhat challenging and rewarding once you get your skills honed to a sertain level.

I would argue one point made though. Hipped shots at short/medium range in RL are easier to make (and sertainly have a more "natural feel to it") than unaimed shots fired from the shoulder. (with unaimed I mean not using the sights).
Also, when hipped it is much easier to control automatic fire than if shouldered.

Anyway, that is how I remember it beeing (not in active duty anymore) and your milage may vary depending on weapon used and training.

Whatever you do, please don't ruin the experience with some forced cone fire implementation :/ What I love most about inf is that your bullets hits where you aim, everytime.

//Kee

gal-z
26th May 2004, 02:23 AM
What I love most about inf is that your bullets hits where you aim, everytime.
Yeah that's basically what INF is all about, I doubt anyone ever even thought of changing that.
Anyway, you do have a better chance to hit first shot firing shouldered VS aimed.

Psychomorph
26th May 2004, 05:00 AM
Well you do. Your hands/arms and shoulders do rotate and this means that your upper torso is rotating too. The feet and legs do 'follow' if you hit the freeaim limit and start to rotate further. You do not aim just with your hands/arms without moving the upper torso... not even for pistols in RL. The hands/arms and shoulders form a steady system that does not tilt or twist while you swing from the left to the right.
Ah, that explains why you have the sights straight when you move (the freeaim). I thought it was ment more of the free moving of the arms, but that would drop the accurassy and weapon steady.

What about hipped then? Do you move the torso too, or in that case only the arms, because the buttstock is not forced to enything?

Yeah that's basically what INF is all about.
I would say it is just a part of what INF is all about ;)

Beppo
26th May 2004, 06:28 AM
Well at hip it is a mix and highly depends on how 'strong' you are and which weapon you are firing or holding, if we talk about RL.
For MPs and pistols you would normally move the arms/shoulders a bit. Maybe even only the left arm to control the 'aiming'. Easy to 'spray' this way. But if you want to fire 'steady' shots from the hip position then you again form up a more or less steady system out of your arms/shoulders and the weapon that only moves minimal on the pure arms axis and would normally be done by slightly rotating your torso with the whole thing. The hip position is way more flexible then the aimed or shouldered position cause you can easily use both rotation methods in combination. For small changes in your aim you only need to move your left arm slightly whereas in aimed position you would definetly start to rotate your torso too.

Psychomorph
28th May 2004, 07:04 PM
Since I´m mostly with an II Vest around, I dont dare to run while aiming, cuz than you can prepare yourself for a long walk, lol.

Shouldn´t the run do not make that tired while aiming? I mean the tireness is more for your body, but the arms should have their own stamina (kinda accurassy bar), so the longer you hold the gun straight (even hipped), your arms should get tired, but not your body.
So if you run aimed it should definitely makes you more tired, than for example in low ready, but not that hard as in actual INF.


1) If you run in a neutral weapon position like low ready it should makes you tired very slowly (if you run without to make some stops).
- Means, the more you make pauses between the runs, the faster your stamina refills and you stay quick.
- Running without pauses makes you slowly tired and when you are very down and your stamina is low, it refills the normal way (means slowly).

2) If you run aimed, shouldered, even hipped your stamina behaves like described in point 1, only that the stamina loose is little increased, but you also have the weapon accurassy/arm stamina loose!

3) If you walk in low ready you have no stamina loss.
If you walk aimed, shouldered, or hipped, you have no stamina loss, but the accurassy/arm stamina loss.


I´m sure you have some things in mind for the next version, like with everything else in INF, but I think it should be that way, or similar.

Cleeus[JgKdo]
29th May 2004, 03:39 AM
Aiming should not decrease stamina more, instead it should decrease speed :)

Hurin
31st May 2004, 12:46 PM
@beppo:
What i am trying to say is that if you are in lowready/normal mode and you try to shoot, the weapon will raise and shoot for as long as you hold the button then go back down to the lowready/normal mode. This would be diffrent from lowready/fire mode by the fact that it would be harder to tell where your weapon points and weapon bob would be much greater, I am not sure of a numerical figure yet.

I posted on this other idea on a diffrent thread and would like to bring it over here in case that psychomorph ever makes this idea in to reality and i hope you do.

FAlling- The person falling down the stairs and a person being below them. THe person falling almost always kill the person below. Such a scenario has been reapeted by me on both sides multiple times.
What makes a tactic such as this impossible in real life: if you fall on stairs your footing is likely to be disloged keeping you from aiming(they are stairs after all).
FAlling a distance of over 7(2 meters) or so feet is likely to make the gun slip from your shoulder. So maybe to fight this unfair tactic make all falls over 2 meters (about 7-8 feeet) take you out of aim mode into readyfire mode and all falls over 3 metters put you into normal mode. And offcourse keep the current modifiers which make one crouch or go prone for especially large falls.
-SkillZ

Psychomorph
31st May 2004, 01:16 PM
@Hurin:
I did the idea for realism ;)

If you fall (for example falling from a plain), like freefall you could be able to aim very good and all that becasue you have no movement at your body.

I agree, that if you jump, you have too much movement in your body, but on the other hand it is physically possible to hold the rifle to the shoulder even if not very stable, but I don´t think you can aim if you jump, no that is not possible.


I think it would be the best way to solve this so:
If you jump while aiming a gun, you loose your aim and see the weapon from a shouldered position (on the right side). It looks like if you push the jump key, you see the rifle moving to the right and bobing a bit and you do a jump. If you land, you see a hard bob and the aim returns.

If you shoot while the jump (the fly), the freeaim should increase (cuz you do not hold the gun to the shouder that good and while the fly you move the gun more by moving your arms, thats why the freeaim is more) so it is much harder to place good shots, but as IRL you are still able to use your gun.

What about that?

gal-z
4th Jun 2004, 09:19 AM
Aiming/shouldering the rifle should hardly reduce run speed, but running while shouldering/aiming should still make the weapon bob, so it's quite impossible to aim while walking and impossible to aim while running (sights bob too much). Yet, the bobbing of the shouldered weapon should be less than how it is now while running forward.

Hurin
19th Jun 2004, 09:11 AM
@PsychoMorph
I think their should be more variables entered into the fall calculations:

a. if one falls on stairs the fall although it may be a short one counts more towards hurting ones health then one onto flat ground. (bad footing on stairs).
b. FAlling from a height onto a slanted surface will automaticcally make you slide down, even if you can walk up and stand on it. One would slide till they reach the bottom or their momentum is reduced deacresing damage from the fall.
c. FAlling in general (even if you arent jumping), with a fall of more then 2.5 meters the weapon should got out of aim mode into ready fire mode/normal mode depending on how big the fall is. If you dont belive me try it jump 2.5 meters with a gun in fire mode, tell me how hard it is to keep the gun that way.


One more thing to, I would really like to see a climb key. YOU climb on to crates, you jump grab the ledge and pull your self up so on.
I know this migth be extreme and much level redesign might be needed. But this would be a big step towards full scale realism.

-SkillZ

geogob
19th Jun 2004, 10:05 AM
One more thing to, I would really like to see a climb key. YOU climb on to crates, you jump grab the ledge and pull your self up so on.
I know this migth be extreme and much level redesign might be needed. But this would be a big step towards full scale realism.

ra286 had this feature. The trouble was that none of the maps are created with this in mind, hence a lot of problems occure. A change like this one, having such a major impact on map flow, cannot be done so easily. Probably the best thing would be to add it during an eventual port to another engine. Map will need to be ported to, so they could be modified in concequence.

The idea is good, but we had too many problems with it in ra286 IMO. I can't say how many times rounds ended with a suicide or with a reset because someone was stuck outside of the map.

mat69
19th Jun 2004, 11:20 AM
I think it would be possible with a mutator.
Adding a new actor which allows climbing at a radius of ... in an ini, where you can add several actors for different maps.

keihaswarrior
19th Jun 2004, 06:49 PM
ra286 had this feature. The trouble was that none of the maps are created with this in mind, hence a lot of problems occure. A change like this one, having such a major impact on map flow, cannot be done so easily. Probably the best thing would be to add it during an eventual port to another engine. Map will need to be ported to, so they could be modified in concequence.

The idea is good, but we had too many problems with it in ra286 IMO. I can't say how many times rounds ended with a suicide or with a reset because someone was stuck outside of the map.
That isn't completely true. You could implement climbing into INF without redoing any of the maps, but the climbing feature would have to be quite limited.

Basically, reduce the height of the current jump and implement a climb action that has a maximum height of the currect jump height in-game.

This way, you would not be able to get any higher than normal, but it wouldn't cost as much stamina to climb a few boxes because you could climb them instead of jumping.

Hurin
21st Jun 2004, 03:24 PM
Over all i agree with geogobs idea (for once), if and when inf is ported to a new engine changes like this may be put into effect.
One could add many other things to this too later on like allowing one to squeeze against the wall to allow walking thin edges more realistically. and over all much of this type of movement should be redesigned in the future. like proning on surfaces to small to hold ones body and climbing up a steep wall instead of walking up it.

Another idea i was thingking is a free lean, the idea is as follows:

Purpose:
To make more realistic fire fights, increase the use of cover fire and allow the player more options.
How To:
Take away the lean left and right keys and make one key, while holding this key u may lean in anydirection you move the mouse or the wsad controls (to be decided) so effectvly supposing ur using the controls u could lean up down left or right or any combination of the following.
This would allow one to look over a crate for example, from a crouched position without standing up and exposing oneself fully. This would make sense, since if you are crocuhing behind a rock (in real life) you would stand up and shoot u would slowly bring your gun over the rock exposing ur self minimally. Somewhere along those lines.

Morethings you can do: lying prone on top of a building you could lean down allowing you to peek in side a window directly below, etc.

I dont know how much support this idea will have put i have had it for a while and decided to suggest it.

-Skillz

Derelan
21st Jun 2004, 04:16 PM
Take away the lean left and right keys and make one key, while holding this key u may lean in anydirection you move the mouse or the wsad controls (to be decided) so effectvly supposing ur using the controls u could lean up down left or right or any combination of the following.
This would allow one to look over a crate for example, from a crouched position without standing up and exposing oneself fully. This would make sense, since if you are crocuhing behind a rock (in real life) you would stand up and shoot u would slowly bring your gun over the rock exposing ur self minimally. Somewhere along those lines.

-Skillz

I think RavenShield had this, and it worked quite well, but I don't see how its possible for INF without using pre-coded animations.

Beppo
21st Jun 2004, 05:00 PM
This 'idea' of a free lean was already discussed here a while back (I guess around the time RavenShield presented it). Any INF on UT'99 will not get this feature due to the engine simply being unable to do this. But ie UT2k3/4 allows direct bone manipulation and that is what RS is using for the free leaning. So there is no need for any kind of lean animation at all. Can all be controlled via codes and so it can be controlled by the player input as well of course.

jayhova
21st Jun 2004, 05:36 PM
There is one major difference between hip mode as it is implemented now and a true shouldered mode. In a true shouldered mode your POV moves not the weapon. The thing here is that in the current implementation if you are in a tight location you can't switch between them.

I would like to propose a sticky shouldered mode. In this mode the weapon is always shouldered unless: you have just changed weapons, you are reloading, you have sprinted. In these cases the weapon would move to the hipped mode which should prehaps have a little less weapon on the screen than it does now.

Hurin
22nd Jun 2004, 06:22 PM
@Beppo,
well then supposing that INF is ported to UT2004, will you include free lean, will you consider it?
BY the way what is the chance of this happening, of INF being ported for UT2004, is there anything the community can do to increase this chance?

Hurin
22nd Jun 2004, 06:25 PM
@PsychoMorph
id like you to look at the scopes discussion going on because it is closly related to your idea.

Psychomorph
1st Sep 2004, 08:51 AM
Suggestion time ;)

The suggestion I would prerfer is, to have the low ready/aimed as standart, but you could be able to toggle with a special key (probably mousewheel) the aiming modes (aimed/shouldered and hipped). With the right mouse key you would use the current aiming mode.
The current aiming mode would be displayed in the hud. Maybe the aimed mode would have green typo (color), the shouldered orange (as less accurate) and the hipped red typo (as even more inaccurate).
This toggle would be on the "mousewheel up", "mousewheel down" stuff, cuz than you could toggle better between the 3 modes. If you aim a rifle, you could use the "mousewheel down" to unaim the rifle, but hold it to the shoulder (shouldered) and again wheel mouse down, to hip it (with all the 1st person animations). Using wheel up would shoulder the gun and than aim it again.
Using the wheel in low ready would just define the weapon aim mode you will have if you press the right mose key.
According to this suggestion, I did some pics again.

Low Ready Positions
http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/m4_lowready.gif
http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/m4_lowready_1st.gif

1 (shoulder/aim adjusted)
3rd person:
The gun is held in low ready, but not vertically to the ground, but 45 degrees down, like it is done in real life.
If you adjust the shouldered mode, or the aiming mode with the mousewheel, the low ready position of this both modes would look the same (as pic 1).

1st person:
Since the gun is pointed 45 degrees down, you particulary can see it in low ready.

2 (shoulder/aim adjusted)
3rd person:
If you move close to a wall, the low ready weapon moves closer to the body and ends up in a vertically held weapon.
This works only if they are obstacles in front of you and you are close enough to them.

1st person:
From your view, you could see at most the buttstock, since the gun is held vertically.

3 (hip adjusted)
3rd person:
If the weapon is adjusted to the hipped mode, than also the low ready position changes.
Since the hipped mode doesn´t require the weapon to shoulder, the weapon is just held in the hands (sideways), while in low ready.
If you adjust another weapon position with the mousewheel, you would see the soldier is changing his low ready weapon position.

1st person:
Since the weapon is just held in the hands, you do not see any parts of it from your view.
Also in the 1st view you would see the low ready postitions changing (between shouldered/aimed and hipped).

Lasersailor184
1st Sep 2004, 10:11 AM
Here's an idea, it might be a little difficult for you to understand. Aim, then aim downwards. BINGO! PROBLEM SOLVED!

(SDS)benmcl
1st Sep 2004, 10:33 AM
I find it interesting that you have made no comment about this discussion then suddenly pop in with a stupid comment like that. The fact is there are better ways to do this and that is what is being discussed. The fact the Beppo has been seriously discussing this topic may have clued you in that SS is atleast interested in the ideas here.

If you don't have something usefull to add here then STU.

Lasersailor184
1st Sep 2004, 06:13 PM
Yes, I'll STU. Man I've been told.

But think about it. You are asking SS to do something that really has no affect on battle. It would require coding, a lot of animation work and much much more. Guess what they could be doing with this time instead of a feature that is not needed.

(SDS)benmcl
1st Sep 2004, 06:46 PM
Of course it is going to take a lot of work. The next version will of course.

How do you thing things are developed? Ideas are brought up, discussed and debated. The SS team takes a look at what they would like to add. They modify it and work it. Thats all part of the creative process of this mod.

Do you honestly believe that if Beppo thought his ideas were bad he would be wasting his time here? He joined the discussion to bring his view points and to see if others have better ideas. They probably won't appear exactly like it has be discribed but I bet you'll see at minimum and invluence portins of the next version.

Members of the community invluenced the development of 2.9 and will do the same in next version.

Also why do you think SS put a call out for people to work on the next version. Maybe they know that there will be much more work involved?

Too many people who have attempted to bring something constructive to the community has been stomped on. It really needs to stop.

jayhova
1st Sep 2004, 09:22 PM
Psycho,

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. While the positions you discuss here are realistic they are too relaxed for the environment that is INF. In a situation where contact has been made or is eminent it is much more useful to have the rifle in a ready to fire position. I do think that if the player is in an unsupported position e.g. standing or leaning while crouched, his rifle should drift down after he has been still for a few seconds. It takes effort to keep a rifle pointed at the same place while in an unsupported position. In fact I think it would be cool if Yurch's new mutator could reflect muscle fatigue if you fail to let the weapon rest.

Edit: I really don't like the idea of using the mouse wheel for anything as I use it to switch weapons. Also no one has made any comments on my idea of a sticky mode (maybe because mine is the last entry on that page). To reiterate: ..the weapon is always shouldered unless: you change weapons, you are reloading, you sprinted. In these cases the weapon would move to the hip.

Yes, IMHO we need a shouldered mode and I think it should look just like your first picture. The current hip mode is not shouldered for the reasons I have previously mentioned. A true shouldered mode would allow the sniper weapons to be fired properly without the use of the scope. Many people think this would unbalance the game but not if the sniper weapons had resonable damages and were used with the Yurchian Rav3/BS4 combo.

Psychomorph
2nd Sep 2004, 08:20 AM
I explain how my experience in INF is.

First, I always use Ironsights, never hip. For that, I always try to 'calculate' the situation, where I decide if I have to have the gun up as it is done in RL.

For me, hipped is kinda 'low ready' allready, only that it doesn´t look so. So I run (stamina save), or navigate in close rooms by using hipped. Using the hipped, I always kinda wish the animation would just lower the barrel (low ready) instead of hip the weapon, cuz I (personally) never shoot using the hipped position.

And of course in comabt sometimes you have to have the gun ready to fire. But then I diecide as in RL myself in those situation if the gun must be ready (aimed).

If I think: 'Oh oh, theres a window', ' Oh, theres an open door', 'This place is not save'. I always shoulder the gun and lower the sight, to observe, but have the gun always ready. I even run in short stages while aiming, even if it takes stamina.
But if I decide the situation is clear enough (at least at the time), I relax and hip (kinda low ready), save stamina if run and do not crash my gun.
Overall, it takes very less time to bring up the gun from low ready, as it is in actual INF (from hipped).
Notice also, that ohters (your enemies) would have the same 'problem'.


So for me, it would make not that much differences at all, but the low ready would look and act realistic.
For those who say 'but I want shoot hipped, or shouldered', therefor is the 'weapon aiming mode toggle' (mousewheel or something else).

If ppl would say I want to have gun shouldered and ready and aim fast (as done in AA), that would still work fast enough (is just another key, or mousewheel), second AA needs this (fast aim/shoulder toggle), but not really INF, cuz using the INF freeaim, you can lower the gun and aim fast by moving it onto the target.


From my point of view I really do not see any issues with low ready at all (and use it kinda allready), since INF got the most flexible aiming system, which allows you to handle the gun faster.
If AA:O would have the low ready/aim system as I explained, it would ruin the whole stuff, but forget that silly AA:O :D.


P.S. what new yurchs mutator? I´m not well informed at the time.

Nukeproof
2nd Sep 2004, 10:02 AM
Didn't somebody mention clipping problems with the current weapon models for a 'low ready' position?

Beppo
2nd Sep 2004, 12:54 PM
... The fact the Beppo has been seriously discussing this topic ...

'the Beppo' ... nice 'typo' ;)

Thing is, that I join a discussion if the object of the discussion is of interest for me and if I actually noticed the discussion or someone pointed me at it. So the fact that 'the Beppo' joined this thread is pretty simple... I read the ideas and wanted to share my thoughts about them. That's what a discussion is all about. Sharing of thoughts and ideas and 'talking' about them. But I guess you guys know this already ;)

To the clipping probs...
Clipping problems depend only on the model and how far it is placed away from your screen. You can have the same 'look' at a weapon even if one is placed one unit in front of your 'screen' and the other one is placed 10 units in front of it using a slightly bigger scale. This would not result in the same clipping problems even if it doesn't sound 100% logical at first. Thing is that the smaller version simply has less 'polys'/ that can hit/clip into the screen than the big scaled version but if it starts clipping then the whole thing may be gone and for the bigger version only one little poly at its back. Not easy to explain for a non english native so I hope you understood the difference.

Psychomorph
2nd Sep 2004, 01:44 PM
In other words, low ready is not possible? Ok, maybe in the future.

Beppo
2nd Sep 2004, 01:49 PM
Nope, Psycho... I haven't said that.

Psychomorph
2nd Sep 2004, 03:30 PM
Than I didn´t understood that, but I rather suggested it for the next engine, not for UT.

Will it be possible with HL2, UT2004... ??... Far Cry, Doom3, or whatever? Or is it impossible at all (I doubt the impossibility, but who knows)?

Beppo
2nd Sep 2004, 04:48 PM
Psycho, I only talked about the general 'why I discuss things here' and explained the clipping problem that 'can' occur if you place a mesh close to your 'screen'. But I haven't said anything about the different weapon holding positions at all.

I guess I already said that these different positions do not need more than a set of animations for 2k4, HL2 or whatever. For UT it would need a new set of animations too, a lot more than for the other engines and for each single weapon actually. So do not expect this to happen for INF for UT... but that was already clear I guess.
For future titles these different weapon positions will be something to take in mind if applicable and fitting to our TFP (TrueFirstPerson) view we are aiming for.

Psychomorph
2nd Sep 2004, 05:02 PM
Ok. As I said, I didn´t expected/suggested it for UT INF, just for the future.

Is the True First Person this 'development Idea', means the 3rd person model stuff used in 1st person? That would be definitely a new level.

Beppo
2nd Sep 2004, 05:54 PM
... Is the True First Person this 'development Idea', means the 3rd person model stuff used in 1st person?...
Yepp.

Psychomorph
2nd Sep 2004, 06:12 PM
Ah, sparing work? :D
A well done 3rd person animations would create the best 1st person animations including visible low ready held guns and feet if looking down. Must be awesome, hope you rush up ;).

But how the quality would be? Is it possible to make highres enough textures and highpoly modelparts as the gun and the arms?

Beppo
3rd Sep 2004, 12:51 PM
you can have different versions for the stuff other players see and the version you yourself will have in view...

Psychomorph
3rd Sep 2004, 06:25 PM
So you can have the 3rd weapon in your view highpoly, while others see in 3rd person lowpoly?

How that works? In games like SWAT3 you use the actual 3rd model. Will you use probably still a 1st person model which just acts same as the 3rd person? Or does it all works just with the one 3rd person model?

Sorry for to much curiosity, but thats something I always wanted to know.

Dr.J
3rd Sep 2004, 07:58 PM
beppo, id be really interested to ask you how you plan to have freeaim, weapon bob, breathing and things like that look in TFP - because as you probably know third person models in every first person shooter only point at one place ;) it sounds like for freeaim you plan to have some kind of dynamic IK style setup where you plan to have your weapon being waved dynamically by the characters arms - something id be very interested to see.


but this sounds like a lot of hard work... i wish you good luck in the next generation inf project :)

Beppo
3rd Sep 2004, 09:30 PM
to the models...
basically you have a different mesh for the 3rd person perspective that other players see and one for your 1st person view that only you can see. This way you can use the number of polys you need. Both meshs are linked together and share the same animations. So what you see is what the other guys see too. Just the level of detail of the mesh differs.

to the freeaim aso...
you can alter the arm bones rotation via script for example. This way you can let the arms 'bob', swing, aim or whatever you want to do with them. In theory you would even be able to script something that will look like an animation in the end.

OICW
3rd Sep 2004, 09:48 PM
I'd like to see body awareness in a future version of Inf as long as the animations match up with what we're doing. IN SWAT 3, the body awareness works alright, except when you're aiming down, and although the weapon isn't pointing where the crosshairs are (plus your arms and weapon limit your view of what you're aiming at), your bullets still hit where the crosshair is. Hopefully it would be possible to have aiming up and down animations that match what the weapon is doing.

Dr.J
4th Sep 2004, 01:21 AM
thats the whole concept of TFP as i saw it OICW ;)

Psychomorph
4th Sep 2004, 01:12 PM
So TFP will still use a 3rd person and 1st person, with the difference, that both act the same way, at the same time (animations and so on)?
Thats cool, I was thinking about 3rd person in 1st person for a while and always thought they would be a problem in model and skin quality, but if it works that way, it is awesome.

Is it how it works in Hitman (1-3)? Cuz in Hitman the quality is pretty low, so I thought it is the actual lowpoly, lowres 3rd person model.

Psychomorph
4th Sep 2004, 01:32 PM
According to my Low Ready suggestion, here the stamina suggestion:

They are two stamina systems, the main stamina and the aim stamina


aim stamina
This stamina just affects your arms. Holding a rifle for too long will drop this stamina, while the effect is that your weapon starts to shake a bit (looks more of like the weapon can´t be held exactly steady and is moving around a bit).
This stamina affects your aiming, but has nothing to do with breathing.
If the whole stamina bar is low the gun returns to low ready, where the bar refills. Short after the automatical low ready you can aim the gun again, but the handshake will be too huge and the stamina will be lost to fast again.

The more you loose the aim stamina, the less you can hold the gun steady.
It is not a big problem, cuz only after you reached a critical stage (which is your own fault) your aiming accurassy is affected, otherwise it is a not to big deal.

If the untypical situation will happen that you loose all your aim stamina (afk and forgot to low ready? :D), you can refill it pretty fast by using low ready.


main stamina
Main stamina affects your body at all. They are two main stamina systems, a normal one, and a critical one (which affects the aim stamina).

If you run, sprint, jump your main stamina drops (as in actual INF). It makes your speed slower and breath harder. While your breath affects your aiming accurassy it doesnt let the aim stamina drop (or just a bit).

If you get tired (after a run untill fully main stamina loose), or injured (bullet, kevlar vest stopped bullets, falling from higher place) your main stamina reaches a critical stage, where the aim stamina can be loose to a certain procent, or fully.
This kind of situation is fatal, cuz you move slow, breath hard and also your arms shake, but that doesn´t mean you cant hit anything, it is just much harder.

ravens_hawk
4th Sep 2004, 03:22 PM
I like the idea of low ready for two reasons
A) It gives us something for long guns to reduce weapon collision (which would allow us to get closer to walls for peeking and such, while still looking foward.)
B) As a side option (not to hijack) it could be used to limit turning speed, drop into low ready and you be able to spin faster or something like that.

Psychomorph
4th Sep 2004, 05:39 PM
I like the idea of low ready for two reasons.
A)...
B) As a side option (not to hijack) it could be used to limit turning speed, drop into low ready and you be able to spin faster or something like that.
Yay, thats something I didn´t thought about, good point. Indeed, in real life I saw (often training stuff), where soldiers, take the gun to a lower position, turn fast and lift the barrel quickly to aim. And if soldiers do that in real life, it has a reason. Same as low ready has a reason in real life.

gal-z
10th Sep 2004, 04:32 AM
The reason is it's very hard to see where you need to turn when looking through the sights, as your FOV is smaller and area that you focus on is even smaller, especially when using acog scopes (which I have on my M4A1). So basically u bring your head up (shouldered but pointed forward weapon mode), turn then aim again.
As for the effect of low ready on weapon collision, you will first have to make weapon collision realistic. Even the way it is right now, the proportions of how much your weapons collide with walls and doorways is all wrong for different weapons of different lengths.

Psychomorph
10th Sep 2004, 07:52 AM
Sling System
I think they are two points in carrying weapons, the 'physical ability' and the 'physical usability'.

Of course it is possible to carry even 6 rifles (3 on each shoulder), but to take one rifle, you probably need to take off the other 2 rifles. Does it make sence in combat? Does it make sence at all?

Speaking about 'physical usability' I can think of 3 good accessable sling positions, plus the ability to carry one weapon in the hands.
Also the pistol holster at the leg.
Even if you have a backpack, the 2 rifles at the back are still at the same position at the right, or left of the back.


http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/sling_system.gif


If you see at the picture, they are 3 sling positions:
1. Weapon position at the chest.
- fast and direct weapon select.
2. Weapon position at the right side of the back.
- you let your 'chest gun' slide, grab with the right hand the rifle at the back, pull it forward, shoulder and aim.
3. Weapon position at the left side of the back.
- you pull the rifle at the back and grab with the left hand the other rifle at the back, pull it forward, shoulder it and aim.
4. Hand Held weapon position (pistol, or another weapon).
- you pull the rifle back to the left, pull the pistol and aim, or grab a weapon on the ground and aim.


Primary Weapons
I think you should be able to carry on the slings 3 weapons, no matter what one. A SMG, carabine rifle, assaultrifle, battlerifle, light sniperrifle, heavy sniperrifle, light machinegun, heavy machinegun.
It has nothing to do with the size of the weapons, but with the place they are held/hang on.

You can even carry 3 M249's. But carrying to heavy equipment should let you get tired slowly, even if you stand, or crouch.
Proning, or get crouched will take long, standing up even slower. Select deselect heavy weapons will take more time.
If you carry allready 3 weapons and grab another one, you hold it in the hands, but if you select one of your equipped weapons, you drop the hand held weapon.

Rocket Launchers
I´m not sure about the Rocketlaunchers.
If you carry a RPG launcher, you cary byside the launcher the bag with the rockets. So you can only have one weapon on the sling at the chest and hold a second in the hands, which you will drop if you select one of your equipped weapons.
I don´t know about the AT4. Is it a light weapon, so you could carry a rifle at the back byside the AT4? Do AT4 equipped soldiers carry rockets in a bag in the back?

Weapons without a sling/bag/holster
Every weapon without a sling (or a special bag as the RGP) will be dropped if deselected.

Pistols
I´m not sure, if you have pouches, where a second pistol can be carried, but if not, than you can have one pistol equipped (one holster). To get another one, you have to drop the used pistol.
Maybe you can loadout a second pistol with the holster at the chest.
Selecting a holster, without a pistol, for a future second pistol, could be discussed, don´t know if it makes sence.


Ammunition
Carrying many weapons is one story, but having enough bags and pouches for ammo is another.

Ammo should not just be a number in the HUD, but have a special place where it can be held.
If the standart vest has 6 pouches with each contain 2, or 3 rifle clips, than you cant have more than that.
If you have 3 smaller pouches for pistol ammo, than you can´t carry more.


Backpack
It is known, that you can carry much ammo in the backpack, but how fast is this backpack accessable? Or should we skip realism on that part?

Equipment
I think about, that the backpack is an equipment. You can choose it, or not.
If you equip yourself with a backpack, you can fill it in the 'equipment menu' with stuff you need.
You can take more ammo, nades, mines, even small weapons, like a pistol, or a SMG with a retracted stock.

Use
- With a special 'backpack key', you strap down the backpack and hold it with the left arm, while the right is free. That takes a bit time, but not to much.

- Pushing the 'use key' you can take ammo, nades, or small weapons from the ground and put it in the pack.

- Pushing the 'reload key' you refill the pouches with ammo. Ammo of weapons you do not have stay in the pack, to keep free space in the pouches for more usefull ammo.

- You can also select and aim an one hand held weapon with the right hand, for self defense. You can use a pistol (pushing the pistol key), or a stockless SMG (Uzi, pushing the primary weapon key).

- You can also drop the pack by the 'drop key' and use your rifle, if needed. Than you can grab the pack again.

- If you have a sidegun in use and the pack in the left arm, you can deselect the gun by pushing the 'backpack key'.

- If your right arm is free (gun deselected), you deselect the backpack by the 'backpack key' (will take a bit time).

gal-z
10th Sep 2004, 11:44 AM
The way the guy on the left is carrying the AK is how we carry our primary weapons in combat in the IDF. It's good because u can leave it hanging there for fast pulling when u use ur hands or do a long walk to the objective.
As for ammo pouches, you can make self-made vests with as many pouches you can place, and make them as big as you want... For example, some vests have 2 pouches of 3 mags each (medic vests and m203 vests). Also I heard some places are making customized sniper vests since snipers don't need many magazine pouches but need a comfortable way to carry their sniper ammunition and sniper rifle.
As for backpack, in Israel, for example, we carry the M24 in a special backpack designed to keep it from losing zeroing until you reach your position (until then you walk with your primary weapon (usually m16 type) the standard way in case something goes wrong on the way). Some also carry it like the guy on the right carries his M-16, but on the right shoulder. However, this is rare as you don't need it accessible during movement and it may hit something and lose zeroing.

ravens_hawk
10th Sep 2004, 01:05 PM
Beppo had mentioned something earlier about adding hardpoints to INF, detailed here. (http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=134320&highlight=hardpoint)
We never implemented a hardpoint system for the carried inventory but had it in mind for some years already. We simply had not the time needed for testing this perfectly and so we sticked to the loadout 'wherever you put the stuff' system.
A hardpoint system would allow to use specific 'grab' or 'equip' times for each hardpoint. So the players 'packing' abilities (usage of the hardpoints in form of what stuff was placed where) would decide his 'personal' speed for grabbing the magazine or switching a weapon or even taking something out of his back- or buttpack.
This is all in our minds already for any future system we will implement.

It is also described later in the thread about selecting vests in your loadout to carry different things. (Like lots of M203s :D) Also usually if you don't have enough room on your vest for ammo I think you would go to your buttpack first, before needing to take ammo out of your backpack.

As for the RPG, I'd much rather see a Carl-G, its similar to the AT4 but used more widely IIRC. Usually it takes a two man team to operate, one to fire/carry the system, the other to load and carry the ammo. It does come with a sling (and a bipod+3x scope but who needs those :D.) As for the ammo for the Carl-G, I would suspect that it’s carried in a backpack not loosely (weighting around 3.5Kg each,) at least that what's reservists do when they don't have vests or slings to carry M203s.

Psychomorph
10th Sep 2004, 01:52 PM
The order of the weapon sling position is that way:

Singe weapon
A rifle, smg, shotgun, grenadelauncher will be in the chest sling position.
A sniperrifle, machinegun, rocketlauncher is always at the right back.

Multiple weapons
The shorter, lighter weapon will be at the chest position, the other weapons will be at the back.
- smg>carabine>assaultrifle>battlerifle>shotgun
In the menu you could set what weapon wil be where (for example you want to have a shotgun at the chest, but the carabine at the back.

Sniperrifles (light, heavy), machineguns (light, heavy) and rocketlauncher are always at the back.


As for ammo pouches, you can make self-made vests with as many pouches you can place, and make them as big as you want
Well, you could set in the menu, how many normal rifle magazines (all rifle calibers included) you can carry, that will automatical set the pouch count in your vest. Same for pistol, shells and SMG separate.

If you do not set the pouch count, it will set automatical by your ammo count, the more you take ammo in the loadout, the more pouches you get (so it´ll depend on the loadout).
That means if you take one mag plus (which would require a new pouch), you would get space for 1, or 2 mags extra in that pouch for the future.

The M203 (or nade launcher at all) require another vest, with special 40mm grenade pouches, or fastening.

--------------------------------------------
Key Setup


I would suggest having the full equipment of weapons listed at the bottom of the hud:

HUD type 1
http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/HUDtype_1.gif

HUD type 2
http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/HUDtype_2.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/psyxeno/HUDtype_3.gif

I would prefer the typo, it looks more clear and reduced and doesn´t cover so much. I prefer weapon names overall, but it is just an example.


Key setup (1)
1 = Chest sling position
2 = Right back sling position
3 = Left back sling position
4 = Pistol
5 = Grenades
6 = Knife
7 = Backpack

Or better that way?

Key setup (2)
1 = Primary weapon position
- toggle between the 3 rifles (or two)
2 = Pistol
3 = Grenadetype 1
4 = Grenadetype 2
5 = Grenadetype 3
6 = Grenadetype 4
7 = Knife
8 = Backpack

Psychomorph
11th Sep 2004, 10:16 AM
@gal-z:
I´m just curious, how you would do a simulator game (as a person who deal with gunz and military)?

I personally would do it that way (which will never happen anyway):

Weapons
First, I would probably limit the weapon thing to 2 rifles (chest, right shoulder).

I would use the HUD type 2 I´ve posted.
Key setup would be:
1 = toggle between the two primal weapons
2 = sidegun
3,4,... = different grenade types
the rest = mines and other equipment

Weapon use
I would drop the hipped mode and include only the aimed and shouldered.
If lowready, than ppl can decide if they put the aim/shoulder toggle, or the lowready/current mode toggle on the right mouse key.

Freeaim
I would change the freeaim to a certain point:
- Shouldered weapon would have a small circle like freeaim (not like in INF an elyptic like downward freeaim), to let the weapon not look like freezed and to give the bullet spread.

- An aimed weapon would have ONLY a limitted 'vertical downward' freeaim. So if you aim up, to the left and right, the sight would stay centered, only if you move the mouse down from the mouselook position, the sight would lower a bit to give you free view to observe. You would be able to aim the sight down as in INF.

- Sniperscope freeaim would be very little.

Movement
I would implemet the movement probably exactly as AA:O did (stamina included). For me the movement is one of the best features in AA:O.
I would make the crouch speeds, the walk, run and sprint speed exactly the same, with the difference, that you walk and run the same speed if aim a rifle as normal.
If you sprint you would take the gun same as in AA:O (sideways, across, barrel down).

Sights
If possible, I would handle the rearsights (which are close to the eye) as described in the 'M16A2 sight solution' thread.

Red Dot sights would be as the INF MP5 Red Dot sight, but not as big. Scopes the same, but a bit bigger than red dot.

The sights would be usually closeer to the eye than in INF, but comfortable enought to run and observe with it.

No zoom with normal sights.

Derelan
11th Sep 2004, 10:22 AM
I´m just curious, how you would do a simulator game (as a person who deal with gunz and military)?

Although the question wasn't directed at me, I once did a simulator game of that nature. I actually spent a year on it. And although it was 2D and couldn't possibly include any of the aspects you mention, it was still terrible and boring and a waste of time.

jayhova
12th Sep 2004, 04:20 AM
Weapons
First, I would probably limit the weapon thing to 2 rifles (chest, right shoulder).

I would use the HUD type 2 I´ve posted.
Key setup would be:
1 = toggle between the two primal weapons
2 = sidegun
3,4,... = different grenade types
the rest = mines and other equipment

I would like to see it possible to customize your hud. Personally I'd like to see a popup of my weapon outline right in the middle of my screen. I use the mouse wheel for weapon selection and I don't wan't to have to look down. However it would be nice to know what key is assigned to what weapon.


Weapon use
I would drop the hipped mode and include only the aimed and shouldered.
If lowready, than ppl can decide if they put the aim/shoulder toggle, or the lowready/current mode toggle on the right mouse key.

I tend to think that hipped mode is not very useful accept in situations where it is nessesary to move through tight spaces while aiming or when you opponent is very close. Again I think a sticky mode where once the weapon is shouldered it stays shouldered would be nice. Hipped for pistols for the most part makes no sense.


Freeaim
I would change the freeaim to a certain point:
- Shouldered weapon would have a small circle like freeaim (not like in INF an elyptic like downward freeaim), to let the weapon not look like freezed and to give the bullet spread.

- An aimed weapon would have ONLY a limitted 'vertical downward' freeaim. So if you aim up, to the left and right, the sight would stay centered, only if you move the mouse down from the mouselook position, the sight would lower a bit to give you free view to observe. You would be able to aim the sight down as in INF.

Umm... No. I like freeaim. It works. The simple fact of the matter is that in real life you visually aquire you target and then bring your weapon to bear on it. Your head isn't mounted like a scope to the weapon. I think the freeaim area should be smaller for the iron site aimview then the shouldered view is used.


- Sniperscope freeaim would be very little.


Freeaim is all but irrelevent in scoped view because the picture in the scope always mooves the same.


Movement
I would implemet the movement probably exactly as AA:O did (stamina included). For me the movement is one of the best features in AA:O.
I would make the crouch speeds, the walk, run and sprint speed exactly the same, with the difference, that you walk and run the same speed if aim a rifle as normal.
If you sprint you would take the gun same as in AA:O (sideways, across, barrel down).

Sights
If possible, I would handle the rearsights (which are close to the eye) as described in the 'M16A2 sight solution' thread.

Red Dot sights would be as the INF MP5 Red Dot sight, but not as big. Scopes the same, but a bit bigger than red dot.

The sights would be usually closeer to the eye than in INF, but comfortable enought to run and observe with it.

No zoom with normal sights.

Psychomorph
12th Sep 2004, 05:31 AM
Umm... No. I like freeaim. It works. The simple fact of the matter is that in real life you visually aquire you target and then bring your weapon to bear on it. Your head isn't mounted like a scope to the weapon. I think the freeaim area should be smaller for the iron site aimview then the shouldered view is used.
To be honest, I like the aim freeaim in INF too, but my point is, that if you aim a rifle you do not move it that relaxed around.

Sideways turn
Moving a weapon to the side you always turn your torso and that turns your head the same way.
So turning to the left or right would have the weapon fixed 'imho'.
The one thing, that you can do IRL, is to turn your head independant from the weapon direction, but that would not be aiming anymore, but observing.

Even if you aim a pistol, your arms, shoulders and the upper torso take a fixed stance, so if you turn, to the side, the whole torso/shoulders/arms move as one part.
Same here, the one thing, that you can do, is to turn your head independant from the pistol/arm direction, but that would not be aiming anymore, but observing.

Vertical
This is the only thing, where 'freeaim' IRL is done while aiming a gun. You´re forced to do so.
If you aim up, your torse keeps his position, but the arms, the weapon and your head work as a whole. But to implement the upward freeaim would make no sense.

If you aim down it works the same.
IRL moving the an aming weapon down gives you the single chance, to have 'freeaim', namely to lower the 'weapon/arm whole', but to keep the head up for observing reason. That I call 'Vertical Downward Freeaim', or just 'Vertical Freeaim'.
The second point is, that IRL you can also move the gun down and the head as a whole, to aim.

In INF both are combined for comfort sake. And I would keep it combined.
So aiming a weapon down, you can decide to use it to observe, or to aim down.


Freeaim is all but irrelevent in scoped view because the picture in the scope always mooves the same.
You´re right, it should move only if you make some movement.
The scopefreeaim feels good in INF2.9, but indeed, I liked the fixed scopeview in INF2.86 better.

I was suggesting that the scopes are a 3D model, allows you to look outside the scope to be able to spot movement at your side (an advantage real snipers have).

I also would diferent the sniperscopes and acog/mini scopes:
Sniperscopes should be fixed. Only a bit sway and effects should simulate some dynamic effects, not like the gun is freezed.

But acog scopes (that are smaller in 3D size) should keep a bit of the VF (vertical freeaim), to be able to observe the location a bit over the scope (like over the sight).

I think the freeaim area should be smaller for the iron site aimview then the shouldered view is used.
In general I mean the same, to prevent the ironsight beeing 'crosshair'. So they is still an ammount of freeaim to the side (not up, or just a bit), to let the model not look like freezed, give some natural movement, but not let the weapon look like it is swaying around in your shoulder.

The simple fact of the matter is that in real life you visually aquire you target and then bring your weapon to bear on it.
Right, but you aquire the target with your eyes (free screen area) and move the weapon to it, and you do not notice, how the head (screen view) is moving too, cuz your view is focused on the target. In a game you notice the head movement extreme, so I understand what the devs tried to simulate and it works good, but I still would prefer limitting the sideways freeaim to a degree not to let it look, like you circle the rifle around.

Psychomorph
12th Sep 2004, 04:52 PM
'Controlled movement to control the aim' Suggestion

I remember seeing SWAT officers running during their operations. Sometimes, they run to move fast, while you see their weapon swaying hard, but sometimes they run slower and more controlled, especially if they shoot. They run fast, than reduce speed, shoot and continue running fast then.

I thought about to implemet the same in INF, my idea is the 'breath key' (aim key holded).
If you stand, what you do to control your aim? You try to neutralitze weaponsway (Rav3) and the breath by holding the aim key.
But if you move, or run, what you would do to increase the aim? You would drop your speed to controll the weapon better. By holding the aim key.

So if you walk, and hold the aim key, it wouldn´t lead you to hold the breath, since it would not make you aim better, but you would walk slower (kinda sneaking) to aim steady.
If you run, you would hold the aim key, and would run slower.

Like real SWAT officers and all soldiers that use weapons, you would use that only temporary. It is like you run in RL and try to shoot at some distance, if standing is not an option you would at most drop speed and try the best in the situation.

Derelan
12th Sep 2004, 07:47 PM
You guys gotta learn to summarize, i'm not reading any more fking essays.

jayhova
13th Sep 2004, 12:05 AM
Again, I have to disagree with you on this Psyco. There is in fact plenty of slack to swing a weapon irl. I just tried it with my shotgun. I was able to cover an entire doorway from 10ft away without moving anything other than my arms. Sitting in a deer blind the objective is to not move your head at all. I can tell you that it is quite easy to follow a target without moving. In fact it is quite natual to do so.

Psychomorph
13th Sep 2004, 01:16 PM
Hmm, don´t know about shotguns. I tried that with a non lethal weapon that had M16 like sights (rearsight).

Of course I could move the weapon around by not moving the head and torso, but my problem was, I didn´t saw the frontsight trough the rearsight, because the whole weapon steady was a mess.

To be able to see the frontsight and actually aim, I was forced to follow the weapon with my head, with no need to turn the torso. But I noticed, that from my view the weapon was 'centered'.
To bring the front and rearsight to a line, you need to lay down your head (cheek) at the buttstock, so the head and weapon get one part. The only exception was aiming a bit up and down and I could hold the weapon steady without to move my head (just the eye), but the cheek was on the buttstock anyway, because it was not a side movement.
Even then I had problems to keep the front sight exactly in the middle of the rearsight.

But when I turned and kept the weapon, the head (layed on the buttstock), the arms, shoulders and the upper turso as one part, they was nearly no movement at the front sight, it was like a picture.
To turn more, I did some steps and made easily a 180° turn with nearly no aim loss.


If you want to shoot without to aim, you can easily move the weapon around, since you aren´t forced to keep the sights in line. But it seems more comfortable for me if I limit the freeaim while not using sights.

gal-z
15th Sep 2004, 07:51 AM
Regarding aiming, see other thread.

Regarding carrying multiple weapons:
When you have a weapon at your chest, it's quite impractical to bring the weapon at your right/back and use it in battle. To use the 2ndary weapon effectively, you'll have to remove your primary weapon from your chest and preferably move your 2ndary weapon there. Optimally you wouldn't want to carry more than a pistol, primary weapon and a shoulder-sling-carried (sniper rifle) or backpack carried (sniper rifle, rocket launcher (RPG, LAW...)) weapon. Carrying more than that would making very tough and time-consuming weapon switching.
Well, of course, since pistols come in pouches, you can carry as many as you want, but will obviously have to pay the appropriate bulk penalties...

Oh and of course, in real battle we always carry a personal weapon (M-16 type for infantry) and if you're a sniper, RPG user, LAW user or whatever, you carry that weapon as well. Only SF use pistols, and that's for CQB, and that's in addition to what regular soldiers would carry (since a pistol comes in a pouch and doesn't make troublesome weapon switching).

Psychomorph
15th Sep 2004, 08:29 AM
Carrying more than that would making very tough and time-consuming weapon switching.
Thats exactly my point of limiting the weaponry, cuz time consuming weapon switch is not worth coding (for more than 2 weapons).

But if we have 2 primaryweapons, than it should be coded and animation switching weapons. Something I dreamed of, is if you use one rifle at the chest, you just lift it and lower it, but if you have a weapon on the back, you should see from 1st person, a more complex animation, where the weapon is taken with the right arm, pulled forward, grabbed with the left the foregrip and grabed with the right hand the handgrip and shouldering.

Sniperrifles should be taken off the sling, so the sling is hanging down the rifle.

gal-z
15th Sep 2004, 01:52 PM
Sniperrifles should be taken off the sling, so the sling is hanging down the rifle.
Obviously... Slings used to carry a rifle on a shoulder (like americans carry their weapons when they walk around in non-combat situation) are short and arn't meant to carry the weapon on your back or chest. Some use the sling to help get a good grip on the sniper rifle when shooting though, but that shouldn't matter gameplay-wise, just for general information.

Psychomorph
15th Sep 2004, 06:05 PM
If the rifle is at the chest, do you take off the sling too? SWAT officers have the ability, to let hang the rifle and grab the pistol, is it in military too (for chest positioned weapons)?

Is the sling not long enough to have it over the neck and beeing able to operate it and aim?
If thissling is long enough, can´t you pull the back slinged rifle forward and keep it on the sling while using?

gal-z
16th Sep 2004, 03:19 AM
If you have a slinged weapon on your chest it's quite impractible to use a 2nd weapon slinged to your right/back. Usually to use 2ndary slinged weapon you'll have to take one of them off, put the one you don't use on your right back and put the one you want to use on your chest (btw in the IDF it's called "neck-hang" for obvious reasons).
Obviously you could easily use a pistol when you have a slinged primary...

gal-z
16th Sep 2004, 03:25 AM
One more thing I forgot to mention about pistols - they should only have 2 modes:
Movement: barrel pointed 90deg upwards, pistol held close to your head. That's most effective way for carrying it when you aren't shooting, for combination of fast aim while keeping collision and detection to a minimum (since pistols are basically CQB-only weapons).
Aimed/highready: aimed and highready is basically the same mode for pistols, as you aim a pistol the same way you'd aim a reflex. I think current inf aim is the best way to put it in game, since we don't have a way to simulate the 2-eye open view here.