Simplify the stance and movement keys

Rupert_Holmes · May 13, 2004

Not sure if this has been suggested before.

The stance, crouch, and jump keys need consolidated down to just two keys

Stance up key
Stance Down Key

The stance up key should be combined with the Jump key, so when you are standing, and you hit the stance up key, you do a jump (since leaping in the air is as high as you can go, and to effectively jump you have to go through the standing position anyway in real life).

For example if a player is in the prone position and they hit the stance up key, they would go from…

Prone to Crouched

Hit key again to go from…
Crouched to Standing

And any more Hits would do a jump…
Standing to Jumping.

Double tapping the stance down key, would drop down to prone
Double tapping the stance up key, would spring up to standing

Also character movement speed should be cycled with one key, exactly like weapon fire mode is already done.
And you might want to think about making double tapping of the forward key activates Sprinting, like it is done in the America’s Army game.

*Edited to clarify Stance Up/Down double tapping.

Crowze · May 13, 2004

This is in fact possible, using the following aliases:
Aliases[xx]=(Command="set input Shift RvSJump | set input Ctrl RvSDuck | toggle bDuck | Axis aUp Speed=-300.0",Alias=RvSStand)
Aliases[xx]=(Command="set input Shift RvSStand | set input Ctrl RvSProne | toggle bDuck | Axis aUp Speed=-300.0",Alias=RvSDuck)
Aliases[xx]=(Command="set input Shift RvSDuck | set input Ctrl RvSProneSet | toggle bINFProne",Alias=RvSProne)
Aliases[xx]=(Command="set input Shift RvSDuck | set input Ctrl RvSProneSet",Alias=RvSProneSet)
Aliases[xx]=(Command="set input Shift RvSJump | set input Ctrl RvSDuck | Jump",Alias=RvSJump)

Probably doesn't need the ProneSet. Anyway, these go into InfiltrationUser.ini, edit for the keys you want to use, and open a console and type 'rvsstand' to finish it. The only thing you've got to watch for is that, when you respawn, you're always standing, and it gets confused if you're set to crouch or prone, so if you can before each respawn just hit the stance up key a few times.

Double tap for sprint would probably work, but definitely not one key to cycle. I like the idea of a speed up and slow down key, similar to Splinter Cell, although it makes it difficult to do a sudden sprint for example (and lag would make this even worse).

Derelan · May 13, 2004

Do i smell "Make it more like America's Army!!"?
I personally don't like games that use Stanceup/down
And character movement speed used to be cycled with one key, it was changed. You can cycle with one key by holding sprint to sprint, or tapping sprint to jog.

keihaswarrior · May 13, 2004

I agree, that it should be stance up/stance down. This would also allow us to have dynamic posture, which means you could crouch to any height. If a sand bag was a little high, then you could just hold down stance up a little and raise your crouch position to be able to shoot over.

Rupert_Holmes · May 13, 2004

Derelan said:
Do i smell "Make it more like America's Army!!"?
I personally don't like games that use Stanceup/down
And character movement speed used to be cycled with one key, it was changed. You can cycle with one key by holding sprint to sprint, or tapping sprint to jog.

Actually it has been ages since I have played any AA, to many rushing grenade spamming jerks who would not defend objectives, and would then complain when you actually did what you where supposed to do as a defender.
Though I thought the double tap sprint implementation was a clever idea.

As it is now the multiple taps/hold key combo speed adjustment feels to me like the Adrenalin combos from UT2k3.

Beppo · May 14, 2004

Doubletapping is a 'dodge' move from UT. We used it in older versions but removed it due to unwanted effects that can show up if you need to quickly access keys and do an unwanted doubletap.
Seperating the stances makes sense and single keys allow for a direct transition to the stance you want to get into. Else you would need to doubletap a stanceup/dn key to get into a specific position directly and this can again lead to accidently ie going prone instead of only going to a crouch/kneel. The seperate keys allow you to go prone or duck/kneel in every situation you want to by a single key hit. The program then controls the needed steps and allows only the movement/stance changes that are possible in real life. The 'speed' key makes perfect sense too cause it switches between normal and faster, means walk/jog while standing and crawl slow/fast while prone or crouching. The sprint key is an extra key that automatically lets you start to sprint. Again all steps to actually get into a sprint are automatically done by the codes. So you would ie first get up from prone before starting to sprint and this all automatically. Without a seperate key you would cycle thru ie three speed modes and if you accidently are in sprint mode and then hit the forward key while lying prone then you would stand up. Sure, you would be able to not allow the sprint mode while prone or crouching but this would limit your possible moves. You would be forced to first hit the stanceup key to then manually switch into the sprint. In addition you would need to cycle thru the speeds to get back to walking again. So one key for three speed modes doesn't work like a charm here. Ok, lets make two out of it, one for going faster and one for going slower. Even then you can easily mix up things cause you always need to doublecheck which speed you have set up right now (ie while standing or kneeling behind cover) before you start moving. One key hit needed more can get you killed easily.
At the moment you can simply hit one key at the time you want to get into the specific mode you want to get into. All keys for this together count only 5. One toggle crouch, one toggle prone, one jump, one toggle walk/jog and one sprint key.
A stance up/dn, speed f/s combo would need 4 keys anyway. So if you only want to reduce your used number of keys by one then maybe use a similar setup as Crowze posted already. But believe me, you will be much more flexible with the seperate keys

Rupert_Holmes said:
... As it is now the multiple taps/hold key combo speed adjustment feels to me like the Adrenalin combos from UT2k3.

multiple?
Holding one key for sprinting out of every stance. So a sprint only needs one key being held and automatically lets you run forward.
One key hit for switching to crouch from standing or from prone. And again one key hit for standing up from crouch.
One key hit for going prone from standing or from crouch. And again one key hit for standing up from prone.
One key hit for a jump.
One key hit to toggle between walk and jog.

This is by far not comparable to doing the adrenalin combos in UT2k3/4 that use ie a doubletap fw followed by a doubletap bw.

Beppo · May 14, 2004

keihaswarrior said:
I agree, that it should be stance up/stance down. This would also allow us to have dynamic posture, which means you could crouch to any height. If a sand bag was a little high, then you could just hold down stance up a little and raise your crouch position to be able to shoot over.

That would not allow dynamic posture automatically... only if you have dynamic posturing implemented then it would be able to use a stance up/dn key for this. Dynamic posture can only be implemented properly if the animation systems allows dynamic posturing (ie by transforming bone rotations). This cannot be implemented in UT99.
In future versions such a system using a free-move key to then change your stance dynamically with the mouse would be ok. It was nicely done in RavenShield.

Rupert_Holmes · May 15, 2004

Beppo said:
A stance up/dn, speed f/s combo would need 4 keys anyway.

I suggested a three key setup to govern desired movement type.

1 Raise stance/Jump
2 Lower stance
3 Shift to next speed

(And since the raise stance did double duty as the jump key, when you where standing, it could be argued it is actually only a two key suggestion)

That faster slower idea is :tdown:

It Sounds like you are married to the current Multi key setup

I stand by what I said, there are to many keys to memorize for just basic movement.

A stance up, and a stance down IMHO is a good way to go, a dive prone is not really even needed, if the drop to crouch and then down to prone is relatively fast enough.

Having one key to change speed IMHO is just as sensible as having one key to select weapon fire mode.

All it would do is change speed mode, like the weapon mode selector, Inf has three speeds, Walk, jog, and sprint.

That means to go to a different speed you at most only have to press it two times, and only need to remember one key location on the keyboard, and are not required to do finger yoga hold key if you are sprinting and have to adjust some other things.

The game would know you cannot sprint while crawling, but when you stand back up it should remember you where wanting to sprint.

Of course maybe the weapon mode needs more keys, one for Semi, one for, Burst, and a hold key for Auto

Or ever more realistic would be a key to rotate the selector switch clockwise, and another to rotate it counterclockwise

Demosthanese · May 16, 2004

I hate stance up/down. Keys. If I want to go prone, I want to be able to do that without
having to crouch first. Give the option, certainly, because some people prefer that style
of control, esspecially thouse that have grown up on the rainbow six and ghost recon
series.

As for the speed control, as you described it, to get into a sprint from the prone
position would require as many as four button presses. Speed to jog, then to sprint,
and stance to crouch then to stand. As it is now, it only requires one button, in my
case, the 3 key.

Nukeproof · May 16, 2004

I personally liked the 2.86 movement speed control (hit once to switch between jog and walk, keep pressed for sprint) better since it was only one key to bind to get the full functionality.

I know there is a workaround with aliases but the problem is that any change in movementspeed (i.e. jog -> walk) will make you drop out of aiming-view which makes it useless

Psychomorph · May 16, 2004

Nukeproof said:
I personally liked the 2.86 movement speed control (hit once to switch between jog and walk, keep pressed for sprint)

Exactly, I don´t know why they droped it. What I don´t like in 2.9 also is, that if I walk and start sprint, I have after sprinting running activated, but I want to have same speed before sprinting, means walking. But now I have alwys to disable running everytime.

I think it would be better to toggle walk/run with one key and by holding the same key you would sprint (same as in 2.9), but after that sprint, you should have automatically the moving speed you had befor sprinting.

yurch · May 16, 2004

Psychomorph said:
Exactly, I don´t know why they droped it.

It didn't work properly online.

MP_Duke · May 16, 2004

What yurch is referring to for those who don't play online, is that you would get mixing up of the movement mode online. You press it once and you would see the hud icon switch and then switch back for some reason (prolly due to lag effects when the engine is checking whether you're holding the key down to induce sprinting) often requiring you to press the movement key multiple times to change movement mode :/

yurch said:
It didn't work properly online.

Gnam · May 16, 2004

I like the current system. The seperate running keys took some getting used to, but now I think it's very good. I use alt to toggle walk/jog and c to sprint. The great thing is since sprinting automatically makes you run forward, you don't need to place your sprint key where your other fingers can reach the directional keys (forward, strafe left, right, etc). Before I had to have it on alt so I could hold it with my thumb while I navigated with my fingers. This way, even though the set up adds an extra key to bind, it's so flexible that it doesn't really cause any complications.

Beppo · May 17, 2004

Psychomorph said:
Exactly, I don´t know why they droped it. What I don´t like in 2.9 also is, that if I walk and start sprint, I have after sprinting running activated, but I want to have same speed before sprinting, means walking. But now I have alwys to disable running everytime.

I think it would be better to toggle walk/run with one key and by holding the same key you would sprint (same as in 2.9), but after that sprint, you should have automatically the moving speed you had befor sprinting.

The reason for this is simple too.
After a sprint (means releasing the key) you normally would continue to jog in RL or you would stop after making some more steps before fully comming to a hold. Well if this doesn't count for you then maybe the fact that in-game you do NOT need to remember what speed you had set before you started to sprint. You will always be in jog mode, no matter what setting was used before. This makes it way easier for you, even in 'hot' situations. Just think about an emergency sprint cause you spotted an enemy and you are just within your reloading process or something else so that you decide to make a short dash. Now, while still waiting for the enemy to show up somewhere behind you you want to move 'silently' around or you want to jog to the next crate around a corner... you then know exactly that you ARE in the jog mode after you stopped sprinting and so you will switch to walking if you want to move on silently ... without a standard 'what mode am I in after sprinting' you would need to check the icon on the HUD, or try to remember what it was set to before you had to make that emergency sprint. This is not really easy and so you often end up continuing your movment in the wrong mode, blowing your current position or whatever. A standard setup makes this way easier to actually work within the game. No matter what, you always know how the movement mode is set after you stopped sprinting.

Derelan · May 17, 2004

Whats the reason for a gradual slowdown from sprinting to walking? In the game, you can just go to crouch or feigndeath to stop immediately from sprinting. Is that supposed to be the case?

Beppo · May 17, 2004

Feigndeath is nothing that gives you a real advantage after sprinting... and the direct kneel/crouch well... it does the extra steps too. So you do not stop immediately if you go down to kneel/crouch.
The stop-on-a-dime ability was the reason for getting the sprint-stop-make-extra-steps system implemented. Going down to prone was first using a 'dive' animation, but it was removed later on. The final 2.9 had a sprint-going-to-prone ability still included. It gives you a small disadvantage cause you cannot directly fire while going down to prone and going up takes a while too. So, no real need to make a slide over the floor then.

Rupert_Holmes · May 17, 2004

Demosthanese said:
I hate stance up/down. Keys. If I want to go prone, I want to be able to do that without
having to crouch first. Give the option, certainly, because some people prefer that style
of control, esspecially thouse that have grown up on the rainbow six and ghost recon
series.

As for the speed control, as you described it, to get into a sprint from the prone
position would require as many as four button presses. Speed to jog, then to sprint,
and stance to crouch then to stand. As it is now, it only requires one button, in my
case, the 3 key.

Ok, so I reinstalled Raven Shield to see if I was just remembering their movement control set up, they do use the stance up and down keys, and IMHO it works really well, just lacks the ability to jump while standing up.

However their only option for speed adjustment is a hold key to activate the run/sprint.

If that same key were instead a mode selector that toggled between three speed settings, then IMHO it would be a perfect system to utilize.

You are arguing Apples to Oranges, having a single key you press again to get the next setting, is less complex then remembering multiple keys each devoted to a separate setting.

Psychomorph · May 17, 2004

@Beppo:
Ok

I don´t want deny, that I stuck sometimes with this system, but it is all training.
I presonaly would wish to have an even more comfortable and easier way to handle this, as comfortable as possible.

Demosthanese · May 17, 2004

Rupert_Holmes said:
You are arguing Apples to Oranges, having a single key you press again to get the next setting, is less complex then remembering multiple keys each devoted to a separate setting.

WTF? How am I arguing apples and Oranges? I am stating my opinion on the two
differant movement configurations. The multiple control keys better resembles
how one moves IRL, anyway. IRL, I do not have to go to a proper kneel position
before I can go prone. I may first go to my knees and then fall forward, or I may
do it slowly to make less noise. In real life, I don't have to get into a kneeling
position to stand up. Just push up and rock to my feet. If I need to go into a
dead on sprint from the prone position, I can do that in little more than a
second. Your controls simply do not allow for that.

Simplify the stance and movement keys

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