Let´s redefine "as real as it gets"

  • Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

Turin_Turambar

Pls don´t shoot to the Asha´man
Oct 9, 2002
339
0
0
Visit site
Let´s redefine "as real as it gets"

First the introduction. This thread is pure brainstorming, with my own ideas to improve Infiltration and try to convert it in the most realistic and intense experience in fps gaming. You can suggest your thoughts about these ideas, you can criticize them or simply you can write your own ideas about how should be Infiltration.
i think that some of these features could be coded in Inf2.9 in the shape of mutators. In fact, is someone want to develop these ideas, he will have all my sympathy. Others, perhaps too many, i doubt a lot that it can be implement in the actual engine of UT, therefore you should read them like suggestions for the new, future version (in FC engine? ;)).

How Infiltration should be?

-When the players join to a game, they enter in a special briefing status. They can move in the map with the ghost cam (useful for the newbies, to learn the layout) and each team can speak. One of the benefits of this briefing is to make a plan attack, to speak and design the tactics of the round and coordinate well the action. And also, in this status the players will choose the commander/sargeant/officer/another-military-rank-more-suitable. They vote a player to choose the commander. If there is tie, ppl can change his vote. The game will begin when both commanders choose to begin thanks to a order in the quick menu. If none was chosed after the maximum briefing status time the game will choose the commander randomly between the ppl with more votes.

-And what can the commander do? He can plan the tactic to use, with the rest of the team, of course. The difference in this gametype/mutator/whatever the players should/must obey the commander´s orders, both in briefings and while they are fighting. You know, like in RL. If someone ignores completely the orders and go alone to emulate Rambo, the commander can kick him. Yes, the commander can kick a player of their team without more votes. Also, in the briefing, the commander can choose the loadouts of their teammates (players can choose his own loadout, but if the commander choose something, it will have priority).

-The loadout will have limits about the number and types of weapons. I suppose this aspect could be set up by the server setting. The most esencial settings it should be:
+Only a primary weapon per loadout. Weight/bulk doesn´t important, in RL i don´t see soldiers carrying 2 or 3 rifles..
+Only an 'special' weapon per team. Examples: 1 sniper rifle/team or 1 hk69 per team. I doubt a lot that an avergae platoon with 7 soldiers have 7 sniper rifles. ;)

-Without respawns. Only 1 life.

-The team with high score in the end of the round wins. There is 3 basic ways to modify the score of your team:
+killing an enemy - your team wins 1 point
+be killed (by enemy or TK) - your team loses 1 point

Imagine that you kill two tangos, but a bit after you are killed and the nade in your hand blow up and kills to a near mate. Your team will have in the end the same score (+2 -2 = 0)

+reach a primary objetive, like invade tuscany´s villa for attackers, or end the round without the villa occupied by attackers for defenders - your team wins 4-5 points (it depends from number of objetives, the mapper should decide it)
+reach a secundary objetive - your team wins 1-3 points.

+The attackers team only begins to lose points by deaths when 25% of their team has died. Example: in a eight players team, if they end the round with only 3 soldiers alive (this is, 5 deaths), they have -3, instead of -5 (25% of 8 = 2).

This is because is more understandable to military headquarters and such to lose soldiers when the mission is to attack a defended position.

-wounds should affect the aim skill very deeply.

-Severe wounds (when a player has 50% or less of hit points) will cause bleeding. The bleeding will always decrease the hit points bit a bit. When a player has a severe wound, the best he can do is go to the evacuation point, surely in his own spawn point. why? When he arrives to the spawn point, the soldier (and the player!) is withdrawn of the round. Then at least his team will not lose 1 point, that´s the point (not pun intended).
If it can be programmed (not in this engine, i think), when the soldier´s health reach a point (20%??) he will go prone automatically and other teammates could take him to the evac. point.

-Perhaps a new item: the first aid kit. It will reduce the bleeding rate in a 50-70% (but it doesn´t heal hit points or stops the bleeding!!). Only makes it more slow. Thanks to this, it should be more easy to reach the evac. point.


Well, for now, these are my ideas. You can see that it can produce huge amounts of teamwork, cooperation and trust in your teammates. Like in RL. ;D
 

(SDS)benmcl

Why not visit us here in the real world.
May 13, 2002
1,897
0
0
Visit site
Your ideas concerning bleeding has been doen, with great success, in one form or another with good success. There was no prone though.

Restricting the number of primarys has been done with fantastic success in 2.86 and I believe it still can be done with a mutator. Can't remember each one.

First aid kit. Been done. Worked very well.

I would avoid anything to allow points connected with kills and TKs. Its not about the kills but about the mission, and yes some missions whole point may be to kill a bunch of people.

The commander will not work on public servers and is not needed for clan play. They will ignor, abuse or not pay attention.
 

yurch

Swinging the clue-by-four
May 21, 2001
5,781
0
0
USA, Maryland.
Visit site
Turin_Turambar said:
-Without respawns. Only 1 life.
If we are going to be wishlisting, isn't there a way to make respawns work rather than ignoring them entirely?
(Hint: there will be no such thing as a secondary objective as the play stands)
 

yurch

Swinging the clue-by-four
May 21, 2001
5,781
0
0
USA, Maryland.
Visit site
Aiming/shooting

1 Camera 'bob' is extreme. Practically to the point where it's a fix-all. It isn't nessesary. Really.
2 A pure weapon vection system. (of which RAv2 had an incomplete version) Yes, that means: No more conefire for movement with or without hipping. The weapon shoots where it points. But before you get all excited, that also means that the vection system is mature enough that the players cannot rely on this for accuracy. This would be something that would require an extreme amount of work to be any good.
3 Recoil from an improperly supported firing position should act as such. Possibly altering not on randomization but on the player's input. The conefire described #1 can actually help auto-sprayers achieve a hit - the cone increases when they move, giving thier gun a sort of delayed shotgun-pattern.
4 Bonuses from crouch/prone/breathing on accuracy, sensitivity or recoil should take TIME to come into play. Bonus should also eventually occur while standing still.
5 Scopes are merely optics attached to rifles. There is no reason the rifle should suddenly handle in a vastly different manner.

Movement/Getting shot at

6 Players move and act in unnatural manners. "Strafing" and jumping in particular, especially the ease of which the player changes directions. This is why bunnyhopping/circlestrafing is so easily abused - the target becomes a series of points the shooter has to interpolate rather than a smoothly moving human. This is both a fault of the animations and the response time of the avatar.
7 Since this is a theoretical list, lets pray for better netcode. It only makes 6 worse.
8 Prone is akward. Slightly pushing the player in the case of collision rather than stopping his rotation may be better.
9 The crouched player seems to sit lower than his camera. Leaning players shoot out of thier foreheads.
10 Most people I try to introduce to the game note that the stanima and run/walk/jog system is pretty akward.
11 Movement Sounds! Movement Sounds! Movement Sounds! I assure you, the first thing you will notice if someone else is in the same house/room/hallway as you and is moving, you may be more likely to hear them first than to see them. RvS handles this pretty well in its demo, at least. Moving directly through bushes should make a racket and is often PLAINLY visible.
12 'Camo' is often quite ineffective, many maps have too flat of a geometry for a rounded player to hide in. Static bushes that can't be seen through any better from within and make no noise do not help.


Getting shot

13 Grenades need to stop being treated as nuclear devices. If you want to kill something for certain, shoot it directly.
14 I'm under the impression that armour is intended to save your life, not keep you fighting immediately after the fact. Pistol rounds, maybe. PSG rounds, no.
15 If no FOV shifting functions exist, reduce ballistics to the percieved distance rather than 'actual'. Would put it at the 55% level or so.
16 Some weapons should be inherently inaccurate, even at 'close' ranges. P90 in particular. Many rounds become quite a bit more ineffective when subsonic.
 

spm1138

Irony Is
Aug 10, 2001
2,664
0
36
43
Visit site
My wishlist:
Better engine
UT has served us well and this community and team regularly work minor miracles with it but small boxes with few players in are the past. Hell, consoles can do that now.

I'd like an engine that can do a realistic job of doing outside type areas... sufficiently well that camo actually works and so on.

As I keep saying on various interweb forums I reckon at least half the problems we have with "realism" are down to using this kind of engine. Look at what Epic did with this engine originally. Space stations, space ships, carparks. If it was small(ish) and boxy they probably did it

We want something designed with wide open spaces in mind.

No Conefire
As teh Yrch says, this would be so much better if it was done the hard way.

Better Wounding System
I actually like how America's Army does this. Get hit and there are real consequences in terms of your ability to play.

It really irks me to carefully line up a shot with my sig and nail the other guy only to have him hose me to death with his P90.

First person to land a hit should generally win.

Accuracy
Skilled players can pull off some truly surreal stuff in Inf. Needs some toning down.

Weapons
I'd like to see more of what actually gets used included.
 

[C22]-Acolyte

Ai kotoba afuro to gunsou!
Jan 20, 2002
130
0
0
INF-land
Visit site
Realistic weather effects. For instance rain causes puddles, poor visibility, a lot of noise, slippery grass, mud.

Movement in water made much more difficult.

When holstering a weapon the safety would need to be put on (automatically?) (Dr. J's idea sort of :) )

Buildings and other surfaces would take realistic damage from arms fire and nades. (Probably impossible as it would strain the server BW too much)

Changing weapons would take substantially longer.

Inf warrior needs to make more noise when moving. And the noise would increase with speed and with the amount of stuff in loadout.

Breathing. Less stamina, louder and heavier the breathing.

Corpses need to be searched to get nades, mags, pistols etc.

Realistic wounding. Get hit in the leg and you won't move fast, get hit in the arm and your aim will be horrible. Get shot in the guts you are immobilized. Somehow the average player should be made aware that the life of a teammate is also precious, therefore giving him some sort of reason to bother taking the wounded to shelter or something like that.

Anything thrown causes noise as it lands.

Variable aiming height, in other words you can adjust how much you want to crouch. (I think some of those Rainbow Six games have this, if not all)

Better weapon collision.
 

Domino

< Phoenix Rising >
Oct 25, 1999
844
0
0
Houston
Almost all your requests are possible with the UT2k4 engine... it's only a matter of coding.

Anyway, here's some stuff I'd like to see (with my biggest wish omitted :D)

1. Kicking in doors / hand-to-hand/ smacking people down with the butt of your rifle.

2. Realistic flashlights and lasers that are actually usefull... Again, in UT2k4 the lighting is so much better, darkness and light have much more realistic effects.

3. Weapon jamming - America's Army has weapon jamming I think, and it's not excessive.. or maybe I'm thinking of a different game. Anyway, it's a simple fact of life, weapons jam, and it should be something to think about in-game.

4. Animated faces, eyes, and mouths - another engine issue, but it's almost a requirement at this point.

5. Equipment and weapons are separate models attached to the playermodel, this would mean that equipment can fall off of you. There should be delays for equipping stuff that's in your backpack, or would otherwise take some time to fish out of your bag.

6. Vision blurring, eye irritation, eye damage, hearing loss... If you get dust or flak in your eye, that would definitely impair your vision. Flashbangs also affect your eyes and hearing as well. Goggles of some sort would need to be added alongside this feature.

And I know that movies tend to be very unrealistic, but in Black Hawk Down, the guy who was using the M249 had hearing damage because of how loud the gun was. Whether or not this is going too far, I can't say... but it is something to think about.

7. Tripping/falling.... when you trip or fall down, your playermodel should show this. INF soldiers are not cats, they probably don't always land on their feet after falling. Loose equipment should rattle or fall off after a soldier falls down, and injury may result depending on the height of the fall.

Also, when a high impact explosive goes off next to you, you are probably going to fall down.

8. And finally, soldier damage... as the battle goes on, soldiers' uniforms should be tattered, or dirty/bloodstained depending on if they are wounded. This may be too dificult to do, even with the UT2k4 engine... but who knows?
 

geogob

Koohii o nomimasu ka?
I'm just not too sure about weapon jamming thing... at first I thought it would add realism to INF, then I though that weapons don't jam too often nowadays if properly maintained and taken care off. In my whole life, I've seen only one or two misfire and no jamming at all on modern rifles. I'm not even close to the numbers of round fired by some in active service, but I have fired enough to make me think it's not that frequent (correcty me if I'm getting this wrong please).

----
On a side note, I was wondering what was a good safety margin before retrieving a round (opening the bolt) after a misfire? I mean, what's the figures teached / used in the military?
----

Also, when a high impact explosive goes off next to you, you are probably going to fall down.

How close is "next to you"? ;)

EDIT: what?! no 1911 in that list? :lol:
 

yurch

Swinging the clue-by-four
May 21, 2001
5,781
0
0
USA, Maryland.
Visit site
Domino said:
Almost all your requests are possible with the UT2k4 engine... it's only a matter of coding.

2. Realistic flashlights and lasers that are actually usefull... Again, in UT2k4 the lighting is so much better, darkness and light have much more realistic effects.

4. Animated faces, eyes, and mouths - another engine issue, but it's almost a requirement at this point.

8. And finally, soldier damage... as the battle goes on, soldiers' uniforms should be tattered, or dirty/bloodstained depending on if they are wounded. This may be too dificult to do, even with the UT2k4 engine... but who knows?
Hey, if you're trying to push the ut2k4 engine... I think these three are a pretty bad example!
 

OICW

Reason & Logic > Religion
Most of these points have been covered before, but these are my main gripes, not just with Inf but many other "tactical" games and mods.

* Wounding system somewhat similiar to this one

* Frag and grenade launched grenades that behave like their RL counterparts damage wise.

* For eye-candy, a system like Hidden and Dangerous 2, where the more equipment and ammo you take, the more pouches you see on them. Obviously a simpler version would be used i.e for every 3 magazines you get one largish pouch, for every 2-4 frag grenades you get a grenade pouch etc.

* Sniper rifles only on maps that are large enough to justify their use, plus being more difficult than "turn, point and shoot" to use.

* More vehicle variety. I don't mean driveable ones, but for "vehicles" like the Blackhawk in 2.9: every bloody game/mod I see has a Humvee and Blackhawk in it. Yes, they are widely used around the world, but barely none of the other games or mods has anything else besides them. I want to see a Mi-8 or a BMP3, or hell, even an old Uaz-69 jeep.

EDIT- Thanks Acolyte. I did some quick research and apparently the Uaz 69 is a clone of the "Gaz" 69 jeep, so I wasn't too far off the mark.
 
Last edited:

Turin_Turambar

Pls don´t shoot to the Asha´man
Oct 9, 2002
339
0
0
Visit site
Yes, in ra286 there was a new feature, bleeding, but with a different system. In my system the bleeding feature it blends with the need of evacuate the wounded soldiers of the battlefield, making something new, interesting (i hope!), realistic and promoves the teamwork.

[quoting]"The commander will not work on public servers and is not needed for clan play. They will ignor, abuse or not pay attention."[/quoting]

I know that my "commander features" are radical, but if we want to get realism we need to explore some concepts of RL like 'leadership' and 'responsibility' (from soldiers to commander and from commander to soldiers also). Together, thanks to the work of the two parts, they can work like a intelligent and coherent group to accomplish the mission with efficiency.

You can say (ok, better 'we can say', i also understand it) that the public community is not enough mature to play fair with this mode, but in theory this mod is for realism-freaks, people that doesn´t want go so near from a realistic combat should play another game, more accord to their tastes. I consider the Inf community, overall, very mature and with interest in a realistic gameplay.
If ppl ignore the commander because they dont like the system, they simply should play another gametype (like DM :D). If ppl enter in the game but still dont want to play "well", the commander should use his power to kick.

Perhaps, to evade uber-abuse, it could be donde this change: the commander doesn´t have automatic kick rights, but a kick voting only needs 25% of team votes instead of 50% if the commander also votes to kick someone.
 

Turin_Turambar

Pls don´t shoot to the Asha´man
Oct 9, 2002
339
0
0
Visit site
"10. Most people I try to introduce to the game note that the stanima and run/walk/jog system is pretty akward."

Ok, new idea: player´s speed controlled by wheel mouse like in Splinter Cell, with many 'steps', like 7 or 8. If you need to go quickly from extremely slow to sprint speed, you can press shift+mouse wheel up, then the fastest speed is selected (shift+mouse wheel down has the reverse effect, of course).
 

(SDS)benmcl

Why not visit us here in the real world.
May 13, 2002
1,897
0
0
Visit site
Not saying I didn't like the commander concept, I do. Just knowing some of the people though makes me wonder.

Concerning sprint/jog issue. I still prefer the 2.86 method over the 2.9. About the only thing I don't like about it, besides aome issues with maps.
 

[C22]-Acolyte

Ai kotoba afuro to gunsou!
Jan 20, 2002
130
0
0
INF-land
Visit site
The stamina system should take into account the terrain. If you are for example going up a hill the stamina drain would increase, going down hill decrease.

The whole HUD-idea should be abolished. Only the text-box would remain. Compass would be a real handcompass. And of course real maps (as in those used for orienteering :D) should be introduced (GPS maybe?).
 

gal-z

New Member
May 20, 2003
420
0
0
Ramat-Hasharon, Israel
Visit site
win/loss should be purely depended on completing/incompleting the mission. A kind of score should only matter when completing/incompleting the mission was equal for both teams, and then it would still be akward, no matter what the scoring system would be.
 

Turin_Turambar

Pls don´t shoot to the Asha´man
Oct 9, 2002
339
0
0
Visit site
"win/loss should be purely depended on completing/incompleting the mission"

But in RL that´s not true (imo). If you get the objetive, but you lose the 96% of the batallion, i dont think the headquarters will be happy. Because, yes, you have won this mission, but in 24h the enemy will counter-attack the same objetive and you won´t have enough soldiers to defend it.
 

DEFkon

Shhh
Dec 23, 1999
1,934
0
36
44
Visit site
I'd pretty much agree with yurch on everything. Overall i think what INF really needs is "simplification". At least on the user end. The avatar should feel to the player as an extension of their own body. Going from a kneeling position to a full upright sprint, back to a kneeling position shouldn't be as complicated as opreating a manual transmition. Controls need to be streamlined so they feel intuitive to a stranger to the game.
 

gal-z

New Member
May 20, 2003
420
0
0
Ramat-Hasharon, Israel
Visit site
Turin_Turambar said:
"win/loss should be purely depended on completing/incompleting the mission"

But in RL that´s not true (imo). If you get the objetive, but you lose the 96% of the batallion, i dont think the headquarters will be happy. Because, yes, you have won this mission, but in 24h the enemy will counter-attack the same objetive and you won´t have enough soldiers to defend it.
Assume the lives you get is what the battalion cosiders as reasonable losses for the mission - otherwise you'd get more :p
And basically, to complete the mission, you kinda have to kill all enemies, assuming they actually know their way around the map (which is often a problem though).