PDA

View Full Version : ONS-Torlan-[PhoenixParadise]


V3rt1go
21st Apr 2004, 01:48 PM
1) If you've read the "comments" on the map named in the subject then you're aware that 90% of them are harshly critical of the map and the guy who posted it, Flak74. Most of the comments seem intended to rip him a new one.

2) This is not a great way to grow your community.

3) Bot40: I didn't say anything personally insulting to you, or to anyone else. But if you want to play some kiddie game with me, buddy, bring it on.

Mister_Prophet
21st Apr 2004, 02:43 PM
This map, if you call it that, is not worth the time and effort your putting into this thread.

You should pick a better map and come back. We'll wait.

Balton
21st Apr 2004, 03:57 PM
1) If you've read the "comments" on the map named in the subject then you're aware that 90% of them are harshly critical of the map and the guy who posted it, Flak74. Most of the comments seem intended to rip him a new one.

2) This is not a great way to grow your community.

3) Bot40: I didn't say anything personally insulting to you, or to anyone else. But if you want to play some kiddie game with me, buddy, bring it on.

he added a few vehicles so he did not create them map but only did some marginally stupid not thought out stuff. he increased spammyness and reduced tactics and you want to gratulate him for that? Sorry, but you suck.
:crazydance:

darth_weasel
21st Apr 2004, 05:02 PM
2) This is not a great way to grow your community.


and ripping off maps like that is? its more damaging to the community than the comments in there. the comments hopefully will act as a discouragement to people thinking of doing similarly stupid things.

MassChAoS
21st Apr 2004, 07:38 PM
The comments have been turned off as the map is already the 2nd worst rated map on NaliCity....

Bot_40
21st Apr 2004, 09:43 PM
1) If you've read the "comments" on the map named in the subject then you're aware that 90% of them are harshly critical of the map and the guy who posted it, Flak74. Most of the comments seem intended to rip him a new one.

2) This is not a great way to grow your community.

3) Bot40: I didn't say anything personally insulting to you, or to anyone else. But if you want to play some kiddie game with me, buddy, bring it on.

1) Listen, this guy spent 2 mins adding some extra vehicles to a map that didn't need them. Anyone who is convinced that this is a good attempt at improving a map quite frankly doesn't have any chance at becomming a good mapper ever. Period.
Please tell me why I should go and lie to someone and tell them it's a really good idea to ruin stock maps by adding a stupid amount of vehicles to it?
Why exactly should I go up to them and tell them their map is great and they are the next person to be hired by epic games when they just made a really bad map?

How about actually comparing this map to another which actually took more than 5 mins to make before giving a stupid rating of 7/10? :)

2) Perhaps you would like to explain to me how ecouraging Flak74 would improve the community. Maybe then we could get Severance version 6428796024758 which has 1,000,000 redeemers and 5,462,000,000 raptors, then we could all give the map 10/10 since it's clearly a vast improvement on the original. NOT :rolleyes:

You seem to think that telling the author that this is the wrong approach to mapping and telling him that he would have a better chance of success by creating his own original map is the wrong thing to do :con:
Shock horror, maybe if people did that then he might actually bother to make his own original map and make something remotely good. Can't have that can we? That might actually benifit the community :con:

3) lol. No kiddie game intended in the map comment. Just asking you to justify 1 single reason why spending 2 mins to make a stock map worse deserves a score of 7/10.
Just wish sometimes that people would actually consider what someone did to make the map that they are commenting on. Just wish that people would sometimes compare the map they are commenting on to some completely original work of art that someone worked on for 5 months that re-defines that genre of mapping :con:




If discoraging map "attempts" like this shrinks the community like you said then so be it. At the end of the day, the only side effect is that people can do without spending 20 mins downloading a map only to find it's basicly the same as a map they already have but with worse gameplay and 20 extra weapons added.

If people actually understood that they won't get credit for adding some extra vehicles to a stock map then they might actually bother to go and create a new original map. They might actually bother to learn to map properly and to come up with their own layout and themes, then learn to create their own meshes and textures then maybe become really respected member of the community.

If you rip a map and spend a few mins adding a few extra vehicles then you are never going to get overall respect in the community.

Kaithofis
22nd Apr 2004, 04:02 PM
HALLELUJA!!!

AMEN TO THAT!!!

Sarevok
22nd Apr 2004, 04:19 PM
The comments have been turned off as the map is already the 2nd worst rated map on NaliCity....

what's the 1st one? Morbiasfun?

Zlal
22nd Apr 2004, 04:25 PM
Yeah, I'm intrigued :P

MassChAoS
22nd Apr 2004, 04:31 PM
http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com/map_lp_alltime.php

Sarevok
22nd Apr 2004, 05:44 PM
wow...FrogTownStump.....

Sarevok
22nd Apr 2004, 07:29 PM
Vertigo you just don't seem to understand, Flak47 spent 5 min. of work on the map, all he did was right-click and add a few vehicles
the original author of this map probably spent hours and hours making Torlan, we at NC appreciate mappers who spend quality time on their maps and people who make their own original content
not that remakes are bad, Deck40 and CTF-EternalCaves are good, why? because the authors put in a lot of time into remaking them
maybe you appreciate and admire mappers who take another person's map and spend 5 min. of work on it and upload it somewhere like they radically changed the map, but we don't, we have no respect for them
if you can't see this, then you just don't understand mapping

AMmayhem
22nd Apr 2004, 10:20 PM
You mean AndAction isn't on the list??

MassChAoS
22nd Apr 2004, 10:25 PM
its on the most commented list...

Kaithofis
23rd Apr 2004, 03:31 PM
Wow, for reviewers and posters and what not of NC, you do not know very much about the site... ;)

Angel_Mapper
23rd Apr 2004, 06:33 PM
Although I agree that the map shouldn't get more than a 0 (or some option to disable rating ports/changes), some of the comments were pretty harsh. I didn't see anywhere where the author claimed it was his map. Epic lets us alter their maps for this exact reason, to change them to our taste and learn from them. I seriously doubt he was looking for feedback or criticism, just a place to put the map.

Zlal
24th Apr 2004, 03:14 AM
But we don't want the map here - and I think that is the point. This doesn't happen at other review sites because our system is vastly different - we let everything in and then check, whereas other sites undergo a different means of filtering.

The fact is that the real author of the map is Hourences and his map has been ripped. Think of it like that. Rachel, would you like it if someone stole GardenOfHeaven (last map of yours I played) and moved a few health vials and adrenaline, then released it as CTF-GardenOfHeaven-LE100?

It's all about respect. Other sites and communities say that NC is a harsh place full of n00b haters who critise anyone who isn't DavidM or Hourences. Well, what unreal site has been going the longest, and how fed up are we by now of things like this? On the other hand, just look at DM-Goose2k4. A totally unknown mapper, getting an 8.

We are harsh, but we just don't want someone's test in the editor, or someone's thinking that a map is wrong because it needs 100 more vehicles to be "fun". This is their opinion, yes, but nalicity is first and foremost a mapping site and the map of the topic is not a map - it's a edit job. Even if Hourences himself released it I think we'd be harsh on him because it is not a worthwhile release - at least not to the majority. I'm sure he could have released his personal version with more undergrowth and better lighting or something, but he doesn't because it is not a good idea to do so. ANd, if past experience is anything to go by, the person who has made this edit job would not listen to our kind words - we've seen it too many times before (CTF-Boxy238, CTF-Tubes-Of-Spam, DM-Cloudwars, to name but a tiny selection)

MassChAoS
24th Apr 2004, 08:01 AM
Tubes-Of-Spam is an original work, but the author still didn't listen to any criticism as Shadowlurker points out.

Zlal
25th Apr 2004, 03:57 PM
Uh, yeah, i forgot what point I was making :P

luquado
26th Apr 2004, 03:54 AM
It's all about respect. Other sites and communities say that NC is a harsh place full of n00b haters who critise anyone who isn't DavidM or Hourences. Well, what unreal site has been going the longest, and how fed up are we by now of things like this? On the other hand, just look at DM-Goose2k4. A totally unknown mapper, getting an 8.

We are harsh, but we just don't want someone's test in the editor, or someone's thinking that a map is wrong because it needs 100 more vehicles to be "fun".
Which, incidentally, is screamingly hilarious, since the DavidMs and Hourences and people weren't huge fans of the NC reviews back in the day for being too soft on n00bs (which I incidentally was highly guilty of for a long time as well.)

Hell, I still think maps get overrated by a coupla points in official reviews here, but it's finally a better situation than most review sites I can think of off the top of my head.

What's really comedic, while on this subject, is to do an advanced search for all UT2k4 maps with a user score of 7 or higher... take a look at all those 9s! Whew! So great that there are so many maps near perfection when the game's only been out for such a relatively short period of time! <- sarcasm*

You're right, it is about respect, in more ways than you originally meant.

But back to the topic at hand, Nali City has always had to straddle a precarious balance between the n00bs and the skilled mappers... what's that old saying, "you can please some of the people most of the time..."?

If discoraging map "attempts" like this shrinks the community like you said then so be it.
:clap:

Some day I'll write up a long essay on this subject, about how poor reviewing of custom maps as a form of social engineering has forced average build quality downhill since the UT days (I wasn't here for U1) while increasing feelings of entitlement. Today is not that day.

*Not intended to slag on those map authors, since some in that list are decent!

Angel_Mapper
26th Apr 2004, 03:34 PM
But we don't want the map here - and I think that is the point. This doesn't happen at other review sites because our system is vastly different - we let everything in and then check, whereas other sites undergo a different means of filtering.

The fact is that the real author of the map is Hourences and his map has been ripped. Think of it like that. Rachel, would you like it if someone stole GardenOfHeaven (last map of yours I played) and moved a few health vials and adrenaline, then released it as CTF-GardenOfHeaven-LE100?There's a slight difference there in that Torlan is an official map included in 2k4. This is what happens to official maps. I seriously doubt there's any way he could possibly think he could have passed that off as his map, but if he did, then he got what he deserved.

I'll bet you there's tons of 'first maps' uploaded here. Why rag on him because his happens to be an experiment with an already existing map? Because all he did was add more vehicles? I would think it would just be a matter of taste, like the giant maps or the endless Thorns remakes.

Manticore
1st Jun 2004, 10:15 PM
I'll bet you there's tons of 'first maps' uploaded here.

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with first maps or with experimenting on other peoples' maps. Personally I think that it is a matter of pride (amongst other things) as to whether a map should be released; or whether a mapper thinks they should release...

I'm constantly experimenting with Ued on other people's maps (either because I am too lazy or stupid OR I don't have the time to design and build my own environments) but I would be very careful about whether I released anything which is based on someone elses' work. Apart from the , er, "moral" considerations a commercially released map is subject to the laws of place governing copyright. There is such a thing as moral rights in copyright law; which I'm sure we all are aware of.

When you install the game there are the usual legal warnings and disclaimers which must be accepted before the 'next' button works in the installshield wizard. The rights of ownership and integrity are still there to be accepted by the user and Epic/Atari/DE (and possibly the map author, depending on the legal construction but I know that's not the issue here) do have the right to go "wild west" on people ripping off from proprietary sources.

I'm not saying any of this would happen but I suppose someone must draw some line in the sand when it comes to using work sourced from other people.

Kaithofis
2nd Jun 2004, 06:44 AM
Look, whatever measures you take with "discouraging", newbies are always gonna release their maps.
Cause 1) When you've just completed your first map, you feel like you've done something amazing, you'd have this pride all over you. Then what do you do? Right, post 'em, show it off, cause "you" think that what "you"'ve made is terrific.
And 2) People get the idea that their map isn't all that bad, cause a lot of crap maps are coming in weekly. When you've made you first map, you know the kind, relatively simple meshes, but not too small.
Then you come to NC, check some of the Lists out, and you find maps like ONS-Torlan{ClonageParadise} and CTF-AndAction, and it's little brother; CTF-AndBlacktion. Then the little mapper feels confident once more, and sends in his crappy map. But I do think it's kind of unfair.

Perhaps newbie maps should be placed in a different section. They'll be rated with newbie standards, given advise and tips, rather than crapfests.
Yeah, I know, how do you seperate a newbie map from a normal map?
Simple, encourage newbies to post their maps in that section. I think NOT being called.. whatever you guys come up with, but being given serious advises, when the good and bad features will be accentuated in your map would be persuasive enough.

We've got to let the new mapper develop their skills, helping them make masterpieces for good times to come.

Or you could do what most of you seem to want; be able to report a low-standard map so it can be removed at once.

Manticore
2nd Jun 2004, 07:07 AM
Ronin']Look, whatever measures you take with "discouraging", newbies are always gonna release their maps.

With the greatest respect to you Ronin, I don't think it's really about discouraging anyone. Hopefully new mappers can be encouraged.

Hopefully everyone, expert mappers as well as newcomers, map addicts (like me), general gamers as well as the people who own and run the site come away with a positive experience (read that as: GOOD FUN).

So bring on new mappers but it's important to keep remembering that nothing ruins a learning curve more effectively than negative experiences. And by that I don't mean negative feedback which anyone who works at a commercial or professional level will have to learn to cope with anyway. You either cope or you die......

But then there's the problem, of totally ripping a map. It wouldn't be the first time but, when it's so obvious, you have to wonder about what the guy's intentions were.....

Kaithofis
2nd Jun 2004, 07:18 AM
the comments hopefully will act as a discouragement to people thinking of doing similarly stupid things.

I was just qouting Darth, an I thought that was the general feeling of ppl here towards new mappers, to stop sending their early material in.

I think you should stimulate a learning mapper to keep at it and guide them a bit if needed. It's nearly impossible for that to happen here on NC, considering a lot of the posts.

And how exactly were you planning to finf out what the intentions are of everybody who's bringing in a rip-map?

Perhaps, just like Review Request, you could request a Removal. Also the number of removal requests would be counted (just like with the reviews now)
And then an admin could take a look at maps of which ppl really want to get rid of. Then they should decide wether or not it should go.

EDIT: Ow, and sorry about the extended use of the word newbie. Has a negative touch to it, don't like it too much. Sorry about the use of words

Manticore
2nd Jun 2004, 07:29 AM
Ronin']And how exactly were you planning to finf out what the intentions are of everybody who's bringing in a rip-map?

I probably didn't explain myself well enough there but I meant that it isn't really up to me to decide what the guy's intentions were.

From the outside it seems like a really stupid thing to do because you don't need need to be a genius to predict the type of reaction a ripped map is going to get from the community.

So the whole discussion just goes around: Why didn't he make his own map and then surprise everybody with something really good? From my end it just seems really stupid...

Captain'04
29th Jun 2004, 01:32 PM
I' m very sorry. But this map OWNZ!!!!!!!!!!

It' s really great, it' s fun and it rocks! It' s Torlan. OMG I can' t understand why people h8 this excellent map.

Zlal
29th Jun 2004, 01:50 PM
I really hope that was sarcastic.
Yes. It's Torlan. THATS THE REASON WE DONT LIKE IT BECAUSE IT IS TORLAN WITH A FEW VEHCILE CHANGES!

ARGH. Just when you think humanity is getting better, a idiot stumbles slowly out of the primordial swamp of our race not realising that the words he speaks actually me "shoot me now and the world will be a better place" and has one of those silly school-boy era like stickers steathily stuck onto his back say "kick me, I'm a moron"

Of course, if you're being sarcastic, ignore me.

Captain'04
29th Jun 2004, 02:48 PM
LOL no sorry im very serious. this is my favourite map and i think its the best Onslaught map ever and i am not alone. Whole Germany loves this map lmao.

Zlal
29th Jun 2004, 04:24 PM
No. It doesn't. Believe me... I know a few germans.
What, in your opinion, makes this map the best ONS map ever?

Manticore
29th Jun 2004, 04:30 PM
I' m very sorry. But this map OWNZ!!!!!!!!!!

It' s really great, it' s fun and it rocks! It' s Torlan. OMG I can' t understand why people h8 this excellent map.

Einstein once said that he only ever had one really good idea.

Unfortunately the perpetrator of the dreaded "Paradise" didn't.

Haven't you ever heard of the words INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS or THEFT?

People ripping/cloning their own maps is acceptable. People remaking other people's maps is acceptable when they pay due regard to the originator of the work. This map is a few minor changes and a big boring zero for attitude...

This map is not accceptable...........

Captain'04
29th Jun 2004, 04:32 PM
i cant tell you. u love this map or not thats all

Manticore
29th Jun 2004, 05:14 PM
i cant tell you. u love this map or not thats all

Whatever...........

You are entitled to your opinion as is anybody. Personally what boils my beans is original thinking and new ideas that are well executed.

I couldn't find any in this map............

You like it? That's just fine....

This map, if you call it that, is not worth the time and effort your putting into this thread.

Thought for the day. We should probably both take on board what this guy says....

Ironblayde
29th Jun 2004, 05:23 PM
Just when you think humanity is getting better, a idiot stumbles slowly out of the primordial swamp of our race not realising that the words he speaks actually me "shoot me now and the world will be a better place" and has one of those silly school-boy era like stickers steathily stuck onto his back say "kick me, I'm a moron".
Humanity getting better? Wherever did you come upon such a strange idea? I'm afraid it seems you haven't spent enough time in the deprogramming chamber, old bean. I'll send a van over to get you right away.

Zlal
29th Jun 2004, 05:59 PM
NO! NO! ANYTHING BUT THAT! I WAS SO HAPPY!
BUT HEAVEN KNOWS, I'M MISERABLE NOW!

seriously, if you cant back why you like the map, then I can't take you seriously. The map sucks. Tell me why it doesn't. Change my mind. I bet you like torlan more than the changes made to it in this map -_-'