XMP is a classic "Grognard Capture" and that's why it has no players?

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Demo_Boy

Incindiary
Jan 1, 2004
272
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Toronto
From Greg Costikyan's blog on game development:
http://www.costik.com/weblog/2003_08_01_blogchive.html
(find on page: "Grognard Capture")

All game styles run the risk of what I term "grognard capture."

"Grognard" was a slang term for members of Napoleon's Old Guard. Hardcore board wargamers adopted it as a term for themselves. By extention, grognard capture means capture of a game style by the hardest-core and most experienced players--to the ultimate exclusion of others.

The most extreme example I can think of is what happened to the Squad Leader series. Originally a relatively simple, accessible game of infantry combat in World War II, the publishers released supplement after supplement, each with new rules adding to the complexity of the game. Finally, they revamped it as "Advanced Squad Leader," publishing it in a loose-leaf binder so you could insert new rules as they were published, with systems as obscure and silly as the "Sewer Emergence Table" and the "Kindling Availability Table."

The original Squad Leader sold more than 200,000 copies, an astonishing figure for a board wargame at the time. Advanced Squad Leader sold a few tens of thousands of copies. Advanced Squad Leader is, I believe, still in print--Churt Schilling, a baseball player, bought the rights from Avalon Hill when they went out of business, and keeps it around. It has a fanatical following--tiny, but fanatical.

As another example, consider what has happened to the first-person shooter. Doom sold in the millions, and was accessible to anyone who could use the arrow keys and the space bar, since you could set the difficulty level quite low. With the move to Quake, FPSes gradually became more oriented toward deathmatch play, and less toward solitaire play; that alone began to exclude some players, because when you sign onto a server to play an FPS game, you're likely to encounter people far better than you, and having your head handed to you over and over is not normally a positive experience. The interface became more complex, as well; if you don't master mouse look, for example, you really have no chance of competing.

There are fanatical FPS players out there--and you can't really say that FPS games aren't popular. My guess is there are more people playing Counterstrike and Battlefield 1942 online at any given moment than in every MMG put together.

But the combination of player skills and increasingly complexity make FPS games less and less accessible to newbies.

You see the same process at work in a lot of other game styles; real-time strategy games layer more and more complexities onto the system over time. Fighting games have taken special moves to a ridiculous extreme, requiring you to memorize chords as complicated as anything a concert pianist uses. And so on.

Developers move in this direction because their market demands it; the hard core, who are also the opinion setters, want new features and games that reward their hard-won skills. And if that ultimately means cutting off a game genre from a wider audience, that's not their concern--though perhaps it should be of the developer's.

There are ways to ameliorate the problem--TSR used to publish both Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, for instance, the former serving as a gateway drug for the latter. ...

Thus, in a sense, Mr. Iwata is right that games are "too complicated for the average user to enjoy." But in another sense, he is utterly wrong. If you look at "games" as a whole, not just as "$40+ titles published in the conventional PC/console game market," you'll find that there is a huge range in complexity. Games like Bejeweled have a large audience, and tens of millions of people play games like Hearts and Spades on sites like Pogo.com and the MSN Gaming Zone every month. ...

Simpler games are readily available and accessible to a wide audience, and do in fact achieve a wide audience. But when you talk about the PC/console game market, you're talking about games that cost more than $40. Few people are going to lay out that kind of money for a trivial game. For that much money, they want a deep, compelling experience--and for the hard core, who are the opinion makers, remember, that means games of a certain complexity.

My guess is that the remark is motivated primarily by Sony's announcement of the PSP, and is an attempt to position the PSP as the "hardcore device for geeky hardcore gamers", while the GBA remains the "game platform of choice for the rest of us." And that's fine as far as it goes--but in general, I think it's a mistake to try to sell games to non-gamers. What you really want to do is develop a game that the hardcore likes--well enough to recommend to casual gamers--and that does in fact remain accessible to casual gamers.
...
 

Ðetta

ºØmníºÐetta
Jan 23, 2004
176
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Yeah, the same has been said before when comparing XMP/04.

In XMP if your new & happen to go up against a Vskilled player, you are going to get owned, over and over. You can only hope that the said vet wins with dignity and responds well to any questions or accusations the new guy comes up with.

In comparison, in 04, even as a noob, u can jump on, grab a vech or AV’ and rack up kill after kill….Good for gamers self esteem. :p

Now, It’s pretty obvious to me which of the 2 your average casual gamer is going to chose based on 1st impressions alone. :)


This is not a bash against 04, just using it as an example, there are plenty of games that are ez to play off the shelf.

 

[LNS]Jubei

DeMoN HuNTeR
Jan 22, 2004
790
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i got a new computer like 5 months ago,i played one month of sof,only thing i had before that was consoles,and i do mean every one of them,i had to master shooting with the mouse and getting adapted to the keyboard and had no difficulties as whatsoever,as it is with all things you have to spend time to get good,though i'm not that good compared to omni,i was around from day one in xmp,and i just improved with everybody else,to game is not that hard to master and it's not that even complex,all it takes is a little thinking like get some energy when you're level is dropping,no deploy points,well let us get one,is that hard thinking???? Then i guess you all have been spoiled then with stupid games that require no tought at all,and as recall there are none whatsoever as that,maybe barbie but that's another story. As for the psp,that's not only a device for the hardcore gang out there,if you would've taken you're time to see at what that puppy can do you would be stupid to go for a gameboy,playstation 2 technology,dvd-technology,a hard disc,... for only double the price of a gameboy?? I would even pay more then that to get one,it even has phone capabilities,it's next step in computer handheld evolution,not only for hardcore gamers but for the family too,otherwise they would sell nothing at all.
 

[LNS]Jubei

DeMoN HuNTeR
Jan 22, 2004
790
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i really i'm not part of the elite that xmp is showing to be,i had to learn everything from scratch,and as for newbies,it's a teamwork game,even if you can't shoot you can help you're team by hacking a gen or deploy,or do defense,hmmm maybe that's why i do so much of def,and the ones you always see at the top of the lists and owning the charts,those people have like a psychic connection to the game :lol: owning everybody who comes in their sights,you should think about it,they've been playing from day one concentrating on one class,duh that they own everyone.
 

cyb

New Member
Dec 15, 2003
529
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UnrealStinger said:
U2XMP is for skilled players, the UT games are more for newbes to the clan world.

I played in UTA and trust me, in UT Assault you have to play as a team too, tactics (+tricks) and communication are very important there too. Which brings us here:

[LNS]Jubei said:
...and as for newbies,it's a teamwork game,even if you can't shoot you can help you're team...

That's the point. You have to play as a team in XMP. People who play on there own without fitting into the team and doing nothing else but fragging (or trying to) don't help the team at all. That's what makes XMP (and made UT Assault) not very suitable for public servers in my oppinion and hard to play for players new to this game/gametype.
 

WulfMan

XMP Beta Tester
Feb 1, 2004
97
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it's not just skill level, I came off of UT2k3 with not much else than good low grav instagib skills, and even then I was only a middle class player, I had relatively poor movements skills and about a 40% accuracy rate.

when I picked up XMP it just felt right, the balance was excellent, the graphics were good, the movement possibilites were far beyond my skill level, as were the weapons skills, but it felt good and right and I loved it from the first day I played it, even though I got owned for the first two months.

games like this only turn off people with huge ego's who think they should be owning everyone because they already mastered another game, or people who aren't willing to work from their mistakes and take the time to learn a new game.
 

|Knowledge|

Dont hate, appreciate.
Mar 6, 2004
6
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demise-guild.com
I couldnt agree with WulfMan more. When the XMP demo first came out I decided to give it a try, I've never been a big fan of CTF, but I loved CS untill a little after v1.0 came out. I played XMP a few times before the actuall release and kinda liked it, but the pute I had at the time was shat. So, I got Unreal 2, and a new computer (yes, a new pute for U2 and FFXI).

I think it took about 3 hours of hardcore play and I was hooked. Ive never ever enjoyed a game so much since Quake 2. The amount you can do in this game is almost endless.

I did however lose my online gaming virginity on Q2, so that love will always be there. But when I started seeing people doing trick jumps in Q2, I was hooked. I got that same nastalgic feeling after I saw Azzrael do those jumps. I pretty much had no idea how to do them since this was my first UT game I played. But the boys in [pet] were cool enough to show me some.

Needless to say, there is so much to this game, theres 3 classes to master, movement, trick jumps, weapons, vehicles, along with excellent team stradegy. I just wish people would actually give it a try before they bash it, and I wish Atari would release some sort of Dev Pack so the community could set up a master server and do updates. I know for a fact I would help anyway I could.

peace
 

[LNS]Jubei

DeMoN HuNTeR
Jan 22, 2004
790
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So we actually are part of an elitegroup who just likes to get more out of a game than just a months worth of deathmatching till you are tired of it,for me dm is way in the past,it's lame,you always come across cheaters one way or another,people who just get in fights or annoy you,especially in 2k4,that one week when i tried the 2k4 demo was the one of the worst weeks of my gaming life,so many people getting in fights over a stupid game,one bossing another,french people calling you names and dissing you in their language,i happen to understand french,teamwork none as whatsoever,people going for the kills and when you lost an onslaught map they go like,look at me 87 kills,i'm the king,please,i mean get a life,i said earlier,the xmp community is wonderful and i like it even better as the sof community,they were great too,but i never tought that when i started to play xmp a couple of months ago that i would be part of the better gamers out there in the gaming world,if that's what you all mean by being an elite than i'm glad i'm a part of it.
 

JaGo

nbk-JaGo
Feb 24, 2004
269
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[LNS]Jubei said:
So we actually are part of an elitegroup who just likes to get more out of a game than just a months worth of deathmatching till you are tired of it,for me dm is way in the past,it's lame,you always come across cheaters one way or another,people who just get in fights or annoy you,especially in 2k4,that one week when i tried the 2k4 demo was the one of the worst weeks of my gaming life,so many people getting in fights over a stupid game,one bossing another,french people calling you names and dissing you in their language,i happen to understand french,teamwork none as whatsoever,people going for the kills and when you lost an onslaught map they go like,look at me 87 kills,i'm the king,please,i mean get a life,i said earlier,the xmp community is wonderful and i like it even better as the sof community,they were great too,but i never tought that when i started to play xmp a couple of months ago that i would be part of the better gamers out there in the gaming world,if that's what you all mean by being an elite than i'm glad i'm a part of it.


I've been playing XMP since day one of the Final release and I do ok, but I still suck. :) Jubei can vouch for that.

XMP is the first online game I've played on a regular basis. I own a copy of Unreal Tournament and Soldier of Fortune II and I even played them from time to time. But, they were NEVER that much fun to me. I've actually grown to hate DM type games. I'm not sure I'll ever play one again.

As far as XMP is concerned though, I think about it ALL day long sometimes. It's pathetic. I come home from work in the afternoon, check the forums, and then play until I can't see straight! Now how can a game have that kind of affect on a person if it isn't something truly special?


-JaGo
 

i_am_Loki

god of mischief
Feb 21, 2004
306
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I agree with everyone too, The thing that drew me to the game was the slight complexity. Is it so wrong you actually have to do a little more than run back and for and click the mouse every once and a while. I know its not very complex but the reason my brother claimed to leave xmp was "its too hard"
Like Wolfman said "it just felt right" I had the same feeling. I came straight from UT99 to XMP And the first thing i said was "wow" it was brilliant in working the classes and genny's. I remined me of a mod i played for UT. dont remember the name but it was similar to XMP. But yeah.. XMP just pushes all the right buttons.
The teamwork is what any experience gammer is looking for, a sense of being part of something. Sure we all like to see that ocational 12k score but it's nice when everything falls together and the team owns.

Anyway I think XMP would be bigger if this Master Server thing were to get resolved.
 

WulfMan

XMP Beta Tester
Feb 1, 2004
97
0
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lol, I never said I was skilled, just that I love XMP and play it often, mostly at night when my kids and my wife are in bed and I can enjoy it :p
 

Bleeder

Co-Founder, U2XMP [Ч] Clan
Feb 26, 2004
803
0
16
teh Intarweb, duh
XMP is -one- game type, unlike UT2004, which has a godzillion game types now. Heck, there is a rumor that there'll be a Bonus Pack for '04 that adds an 'XMP' game type to the mix. Now wouldn't that be a slap in the face?!? Back to my point, XMP has _plenty_ of players for the one game type that it has. IMO, there would be significantly more players if the Master servers worked more reliably.

I've been hooked on XMP since the beta days, when I first experienced a Raptor blowing my guts across the map :man:

-Bleeder-
 

DJM312

Beta tester
Oct 3, 2003
492
0
0
62
Bristol,Ct.
Visit site
I've been playing XMP since the beta days . I've seen a lot of changes and patches to XMP . I thank Legend for their unwavering commitment to XMP . The game shines , Atari I like to thank also for giving me the opportunity to beta test XMP . When I first starting playing XMP, I was in amazement such a great game , I just couldn't get enough of playing . The guys I played with and against are such great people and still are . We have such a great community , even though it's small . It's a brotherhood of XMP players . Keep it rockin ! Peace (Beta)Dman.
 

PF Prophet

New Member
Dec 9, 2003
844
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my first online game was starsiege(mech game) and like xmp i like/d it becouse its complexity and player base i play for hours on end and only get anoid when i get a crappy team a few times in a row(not to often lately thank got)

xmp is like tribes1/2 in menny ways but adds something tribes never had truely forced team work u MUST have energy to win tribes a couple guys defending and a couple runners and the rest of the team deathmatching over spawn points/bases

dont get me wrong i like tribes1 and 2 is aite(1 play was better 2 has better graphix)

what xmp needs is to get ALL the players orgnized and get them to email atari 1's a 1-2 times a week till we get 1. dev pack 2. master server

all xmp needs from atari is master server AND dev kit so we (the community) can support are selves

i incurage all players to email matt and let him know how u feel worst case it dose NO good best case we get support we deserve :)
 

Oh_Duh

{NB}Tenacity
Feb 24, 2004
120
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I agree that XMP is for anyone. XMP is my first online gaming experience. I love the teamwork concept and I like the idea that there is something anyone can do. When I first started I tried to sneak around undetected and take out turrets and hack doors and energy. I would avoid firefights as much as possible because I would get stomped real quick. Often I would stay out of view until the other teams player got done hacking the energy then I would wait til he left and hack it back. I eventually realized that I could take them out with one shot from the shotgun and keep them from hacking. Anyway I am getting much better at the firefight thing now. I have to admit that I have played a lot of single fps games, starting with 'duke nukem'. Duke Nukem side scrolling?!?!?.... what were they thinking? Long Live XMP. If the game didn't have some complexities to it I don't think I would have stuck with it. XMP is awesome. Of course the wife is hateing it about now.
 

J@ckal

New Member
Feb 16, 2004
64
0
0
XMP is just awesome, but like people say you need to learn it. My favourite two games genres are RTS and FPS and i think in some way XMP (IMO) combines this slightly. Not in the sense of building an army or creating new units, but by taking map control, energy points, deploy points. To play XMP you don't need to be the best shooter out thier (although it helps), because if you have developed a good strategy it can prevail good aim.

Thats what RTS is all about, developing new tactics/strategys to outwit the last strategy. Plus in RTS if you stay to the same strategy you will eventually loose as other people will develop on your original idea which also works in XMP. XMP is #1 at present (IMO) for its excellent teamplay it requires and tactical minded games.

It is Just a shame it's going to fade anyway as support is very poor, just look at last week jolt games only 3 or 4 were played instead of 8. (i know some of this was put down to Quakenet, but not entirely as several clans are struggling for players)
 
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