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View Full Version : Request for comments on a new M203 aiming method


jayhova
24th Feb 2004, 01:08 AM
I really don't like the idea of selecting the range form a fixed set of ranges like the current implementation of the HK nade launcher. Remembering yurch's weapon alignment addition to RA got me thinking of a new way to aim the M203. I'd like to see a mutator that if you held down the alt fire button while the M203 was selected the weapon would enter tilt mode. While holding the button you could move the mouse up or down to tilt the weapon and select the range. This could work just like Beppo's Zoom mutator if fact the zoom mutator is not all that useful on the M203 as it sits. Hey yurch how hard would this be to do?

cracwhore
24th Feb 2004, 01:26 AM
I see what you're saying. Kind of like a "tripod/bipod" effect. Yeah, that would be nice, but doesn't aiming "up" with the mouse essentially do that? That's how I aim even the HK69. I just have a natural "feeling" when I use the nade launchers. Good idea though.

spm1138
24th Feb 2004, 01:31 AM
Aiming up with the mouse normally makes it really difficult to fire accurately at longer ranges because the weapon gets in the way of what you are shooting at. You can move it between shots but that makes it difficult to adjust your fire onto the target.

Yeah, this method of adjusting the tilt sounds good.

Crowze
24th Feb 2004, 05:19 AM
Aiming up with the mouse normally makes it really difficult to fire accurately at longer ranges because the weapon gets in the way of what you are shooting at. You can move it between shots but that makes it difficult to adjust your fire onto the target.

Yeah, this method of adjusting the tilt sounds good.
You do realise what the change weapon mode key does on the HK69? Now, if the M16/203 had ladder sights, I believe the same sort of thing would apply.

spm1138
24th Feb 2004, 08:14 AM
Yeah, that would be nice, but doesn't aiming "up" with the mouse essentially do that? That's how I aim even the HK69.

2 characters

Gnam
24th Feb 2004, 11:51 AM
This is an interesting idea. You would essentially have to align the ladder sights manually. I'm not sure if it's really necessary though. I guess if your target wasn't exactly 100, 200, 300, or 400 meters away you could tilt the gun so compensate, instead of having to aim with your target not belonging within the holes of the sights and being obscured by the spaces in between.

I think the M203 really needs to be accessed with the grenade launcher/weapon switch keys instead of the activate attachment key. How else are you going to switch between fire modes, ladder sight settings, ammo types, and other M16/M4 attachments all at once? We need to free up as many keys as possible. As it stands now, there's no button available to adjust the ladder sights if they were implemented. Plus, once this is done the key commands can finally be consistent with the HK69 instead of being illogically reversed.

jayhova
29th Feb 2004, 01:24 PM
You do realise what the change weapon mode key does on the HK69? Now, if the M16/203 had ladder sights, I believe the same sort of thing would apply.
As I said before I don't really like this method of aiming. To me it feels really artificial. IRL you tilt the weapon to achieve the correct angle. I'm still somewhat curious as to how doable this would be, assuming someone created the correct ladder sites. Even if they didn't you could still eyeball it.

gal-z
7th Mar 2004, 05:17 PM
As I said before I don't really like this method of aiming. To me it feels really artificial. IRL you tilt the weapon to achieve the correct angle. I'm still somewhat curious as to how doable this would be, assuming someone created the correct ladder sites. Even if they didn't you could still eyeball it.
I think "short of keys" shouldn't be an excuse... I don't think there should be a problem adding new keys for future versions, or am I wrong? :P

geogob
7th Mar 2004, 09:44 PM
I think "short of keys" shouldn't be an excuse... I don't think there should be a problem adding new keys for future versions, or am I wrong? :P

Buy a second keyboard :p

gal-z
7th Mar 2004, 11:53 PM
Buy a second keyboard :p
hehe... Well we still have many keys left on the keyboard :P Doesn't mean we have to use all of them though.

jayhova
13th Mar 2004, 09:12 PM
I think "short of keys" shouldn't be an excuse... I don't think there should be a problem adding new keys for future versions, or am I wrong? :P

I was thinking of coupling the tilt function with the ALT Fire button. That is to say if you move the mouse up or down while holding the ALT Fire button the weapon tilts.

keihaswarrior
13th Mar 2004, 10:46 PM
I think this is a great idea. That same mutie should change the HK69 also. I hate having to block my view of the target in order to angle the gun enough to hit. Hipping can get around it a little, but you lose a lot of control over shot placement.

It would be nice to be able to simply aim the gun up, or to hold down altfire and use the ladder sights by tilting the weapon.

geogob
13th Mar 2004, 10:56 PM
hehe... Well we still have many keys left on the keyboard :P Doesn't mean we have to use all of them though.

you do?! :eek:


About those last idea for aiming... very interesting. the hold-key and mouse combination is appealing.

gal-z
14th Mar 2004, 12:00 AM
Alt fire is used for breathing control though... Or maybe u mean weapon mode key? Then we'll need a "change ammo" button (which isn't a bad thing).

keihaswarrior
14th Mar 2004, 04:20 PM
There is no reason why it can't be breathing control and tilt aiming at the same time. It isn't like you really need to steady your breath when using a nade launcher anyways.

Streaks
15th Mar 2004, 11:43 PM
As I said before I don't really like this method of aiming. To me it feels really artificial. IRL you tilt the weapon to achieve the correct angle. I'm still somewhat curious as to how doable this would be, assuming someone created the correct ladder sites. Even if they didn't you could still eyeball it.


*scratching head*

Um...but when you use the ladder to aim the HK...it IS tilting the weapon. Try it and watch the weapon model, it moves. That's how the ladder sites work and all. :)




Streaks

spm1138
16th Mar 2004, 11:46 AM
We're on about making it analogue and for the M203 as well.

Streaks
16th Mar 2004, 04:55 PM
We're on about making it analogue and for the M203 as well.


Hrm.....well, personally I'd dislike it. I mean, ya it'd be cool to do all the aiming like that, but then we'd need two mice and foot pedals as well as a full HOTAS for each hand :)

If you want to aim it analogue then just impliment a way to site down the weapon with the ladder closed and use iron sites or something. Or just don't use the sites at all and it IS analogue :D




Streaks

spm1138
16th Mar 2004, 06:44 PM
Do you use the right mouse button to hold your breath when you're grenading?

keihaswarrior
16th Mar 2004, 08:03 PM
Streaks, you are TOTALLY missing the point. You don't need extra keys or anything. When the altfire button is held, the m203 can be aimed by tilting it. Moving the mouse up will tilt the weapon up, down will tilt it down.

The reason for this, is that when tilt-aiming, the weapon's sights will be able to be aligned on target. Normally, you have to look to the sky to shoot the nade far.

Streaks
16th Mar 2004, 09:12 PM
I guess I must be. Because I thought that was what the ladder sights did(?). Only in increments for the given ranges on the ladder. What am I missing?

GruntX
17th Mar 2004, 05:27 AM
100..? :) 200..? :hmm: 300..? :confused: 400..? :( ****!!! :mad:

We need a useful way to estimate range. One can learn how much of a man is covered by the front sight at some ranges. This works in the real life because our real eyes do not use pixels. This does NOT work in a computer game because it depends on pixels. In INF, this only work at around 50m to 150m. At 150m, this does not work with the Sig. We need a rangefinder to make a freeaiming laddersight accurate.

Streaks
17th Mar 2004, 06:33 AM
Na, we just need mortars or something that makes a big enough blast that you don't _need_ to be exact :evil:

jayhova
17th Mar 2004, 04:36 PM
There is no reason why it can't be breathing control and tilt aiming at the same time. It isn't like you really need to steady your breath when using a nade launcher anyways.

Exactly! For the most part the breath control on the M203 seems superflurious, Besides that Beppo has already shown that it is possible to stack multible mutators on the ALT-fire key this would just be one more.

Streaks, the thing I don't like about the way the HK is done now is this, the range on the weapon is instant. IMHO this kind of speed in adjusting the range is unrealistic. Hit a button and boom your right on the same range every time. This eliminates the need to adjust the weapon to gain the right distance and takes user skill out of the equation. The other thing is that the distance is always exactly in 100M increments. What if I need to adjust to 150M? I would have to fudge the aim to compensate. Again, Unrealistic.

What I am suggesting seems to me to be a natural progression of the FreeAim tm system. The idea is to give the user the control he or she would have IRL. I think this sytem given a short amount of time would become as second nature as the freeaim system now.

Crowze
17th Mar 2004, 05:03 PM
You know how to aim to 50m, right? YOu would do the same for 150m if the sights were long enough - as it is, they aren't, but that's just how thay are.

Streaks
17th Mar 2004, 06:13 PM
Hrmm....well I will give you the in-between range bit, it's always been cumbersome to me as well. However, I _never_ use the sites on the nade launcher. I simply have become used to it's trajectory :) Though, I would begg to ask, what do the sights on the real weapon look like? If they are represented realistically in the game, why change them?

My only real hangup with the M203/HK is that (much like true sniping) maps aren't always designed well for them. Often they are used against ONE guy.....and here I thought it was an anti-squad weapon or a room cleaner. :)

I'd toss this one in the pile right behind "need a way to aim frags ;)



Streaks (just rib'n ya)

jayhova
18th Mar 2004, 02:36 PM
Some of the more recent maps are a lot bigger e.g. RTK, and can actually use the 40mm for what it was meant to be used for. I use the 40mm for room clearing quite extensively. Unfortunatly this requires that I not be in close proximity to the room I want to clear as the grenade has to have a certain amount of distance to arm.

Of course this is what hand grenades are used for. Unfortunatly there is no way to aim grenades so that they don't bounce off the door or window frame.

Maybe I should have pointed this out in the "INF's already pefect and being able to aim is for wussies" forum :D

N'kEnNy
18th Mar 2004, 02:55 PM
I don't really use the 40mm launchers in infiltration. (mostly because its silly to see everyone using it. But thats beside the point) So I'm afraid I cannot provide any real input regarding your improved aiming method suggestion.

Your aiming suggestion assumes the weapon uses the "leaf" sight correct? I've read there is also a Quadrant sight avalible. How does this work IRL and how would a Quadrant sight translate into Infiltration?

Link to some site or forum thread which discusses this would be highly appriciated.

jayhova
18th Mar 2004, 03:26 PM
Here you go (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-31/f2331_4.htm)

I hope this helps.

Streaks
18th Mar 2004, 06:37 PM
jayhova, you make it sound as though frags are difficult to aim in INF! All ya gotta do is sneak up on a party of guys and throw the frag over the wall next to them.....*bang* instant dead fireteam! Of course you gotta nail yourself in the process because of the frag landing at _your_ feet, but hey! :lol:



;)

gal-z
19th Mar 2004, 08:49 AM
Well if u want to shoot an accurate nade, you would hold your breath and slightly correct your aiming while doing so, which means u can't have it tilt the weapon instead of aiming it.
I think u should be able to use the mouswheel, or just not make it analog, as soldiers IRL don't really use it like that, or at least aren't taught to.
Another note - the quardant sights, although included, are almost never used.

jayhova
19th Mar 2004, 12:39 PM
You've pretty much got the picture Streaks. The problems with tossing grenades in INF is that not only can you not tell where you are aiming, due to the freeaim feature, your point of aim changes as you hold down the button. This means that even if you are aiming at the right spot to start by the time you are ready to throw the arc may be too high. While tossing a grenade over a wall is a trivial task for real people, in INF chances are that you will wind up tossing the grenade straight up.

keihaswarrior
19th Mar 2004, 01:13 PM
You've pretty much got the picture Streaks. The problems with tossing grenades in INF is that not only can you not tell where you are aiming, due to the freeaim feature, your point of aim changes as you hold down the button. This means that even if you are aiming at the right spot to start by the time you are ready to throw the arc may be too high. While tossing a grenade over a wall is a trivial task for real people, in INF chances are that you will wind up tossing the grenade straight up.
I think most people agree that the simplest way to solve it would be to eliminate free-aim or make it fixed after the pin is pulled when using M67 grenades.

-- Back On Topic: jahova's idea rox.

Streaks
19th Mar 2004, 01:40 PM
Well, I might poke fun at the nades, but after a while I've gotten to be quite good with them. Oh sure I had to frag myself and a lot of my buddy-bots, but now I can hit a window 60% of the time at least (though currently I am turbo rusty). It's gotten to where I actually prefer the instinct style of freeaim. I go and play other games that use the "pull and throw" method and think they are ghey :D INF allows you to moderate JUST the right ammount of energy to hurl the frag. Nothing beats air bursting one right over someone's bunker :D :D




Streaks