France and "religious symbols"

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TheNut

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Aug 7, 2001
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I'm just curious what everyone's thoughts are on the proposed ban of religious symbols in schools in France. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, here are some links:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02/10/france.headscarves.ap/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/29/france.headscarves.ap/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3325573.stm

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_541350,0015002100000004.htm

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/150/41.0.html

(I realize that some of these sources are a little extreme in some cases, but the more the diverse the better)
 

spm1138

Irony Is
Aug 10, 2001
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I think if there's a uniform code, you should have to follow it.

I don't think religious symbols should be expressly forbidden or expressly allowed.

Certainly not by the gov't, anyway.
 

SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
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The Land of the Governator
I don't see anything unfair about this; Muslim symbols are disruptive and banning them is simply a matter of enforcing classroom discipline. If they don't like it, they can go to their own Muslim schools instead of the public ones.
 

DarkBls

Inf Ex-admin
Mar 5, 2000
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France
SaraP said:
I don't see anything unfair about this; Muslim symbols are disruptive and banning them is simply a matter of enforcing classroom discipline. If they don't like it, they can go to their own Muslim schools instead of the public ones.

First time I agree with you. According to me this law should be extended to all public school (i.e engineering school, university ...)
 

[C22]-Mort

Retired but wearing the tag with pride!
Aug 18, 2003
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Affirming ones religion is one thing, however the muslim headscarf is so much more than an exterior symbol of faith, it is a symbol of oppression and domination and as such any move to banning it even if just in schools, or as in Turkey in ANY public place is a good idea!
 

Freon

Braaaaiinss...
Jan 27, 2002
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TheNut said:
(I realize that some of these sources are a little extreme in some cases, but the more the diverse the better)
This whole debate is a bit too "extreme" ;) The average Joe (or Jean since he's french :p) doesn't give a shit to this debate. But extremists (mainly muslims and anti-muslins) thought it would be a nice idea to turn it in a religious war. This law was part of a bigger one that even proposed to add holydays for jew and muslins religious events (Eid and Yom Kippur).

Anyway, if you disagree with this kind of law, you have to understand a bit how France works ;). The State (governement and public institutions) has to stay as far as possible from any religion as possible (unlike in countries like the UK or the USA). And I think this law is just to make sure that french schools are not used as recruitment centers by extremists.
 

SaraP

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Feb 12, 2002
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[C22]-Mort said:
Affirming ones religion is one thing, however the muslim headscarf is so much more than an exterior symbol of faith, it is a symbol of oppression and domination and as such any move to banning it even if just in schools, or as in Turkey in ANY public place is a good idea!

Exactly. Banning Muslim headscarfs is like banning swastikas; the fact that they're symbols of tyranny and oppression overrides any other meanings they may have. If the Muslims think that's unfair, that's *their* problem for the whole bloody jihad-and-terrorism business they indulge in.
 
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jaunty

Active Member
Apr 30, 2000
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The bastard lovechild of bio-hazardous waste said:
Affirming ones religion is one thing, however the muslim headscarf is so much more than an exterior symbol of faith, it is a symbol of oppression and domination and as such any move to banning it even if just in schools, or as in Turkey in ANY public place is a good idea!

YEAH! GOD DAMN THEM BROWN FOLK! HOW DARE THEY HAVE THEIR OWN CULTURE THAT ISN'T THE SAME AS OU...o wai

It isn't for you to judge whats right and wrong on someone else's behalf. By your own reasoning, we should outlaw nunneries, because they force nuns to wear habits. GG, champ. You seem to be forgetting that it's kinda volountary, and any muslim who doesn't want to be a muslim isn't really a muslim. Sure, the girl might wear it while she lives at home, but like most muslim girls here, they rip it off the minute their parents are out of sight.

Banning skullcaps and hajibs and whatnot from public schools isn't going to do anything. It's just going to give a whole bunch of people a reason to complain about a whole bunch of shit. I don't understand what they're trying to acheive, really. Separation of church and state is what comes to mind, but that can be acheived by simply not endorsing or teaching any religion in public schools. It's much ado about nothing really, but I certainly won't be jumping up and down and crying fascist. It's fair and it's just, but it's pointless.
 

MetalMickey

Banned
Jul 30, 2000
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Anyone else find it ironic that someone who jumps and screams about big bad governments interference in her precious right to bear arms has no issues with the government interfering with peoples rights to wear religious symbols?
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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It's about as much symbol of 'oppression' as wearing a cross or any other religious symbol ...
Perhaps you find it hard to believe that these women *want* to wear the headdress like the jewish people wear there 'keppels' (or whatever it's called).

Equating Muslims with Jihad (which doesn't have anything to do with war at all, that's just what the few sicko fanatics want you to believe) is like saying every Christian is a bible thumping half-wit.
 

jaunty

Active Member
Apr 30, 2000
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JaFO said:
It's about as much symbol of 'oppression' as wearing a cross or any other religious symbol ...
Perhaps you find it hard to believe that these women *want* to wear the headdress like the jewish people wear there 'keppels' (or whatever it's called).

Equating Muslims with Jihad (which doesn't have anything to do with war at all, that's just what the few sicko fanatics want you to believe) is like saying every Christian is a bible thumping half-wit.

They aren't? :con:

And mickey: There obviously wouldn't be a problem with religion if everyone had more guns. I mean, duh. :lol:
 
Aug 12, 2000
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Switzerland
It's because you don't need a headscarf for big game hunting, you see? :p

Seriously though, I find this sort of law plain ridiculous. The debate here in Switzerland has focused on the degree to which *teachers and schools* should be allowed to bear religious symbols (cases in point: crucifixes in classrooms [denied], headscarves for teachers [also denied, so far]). Here the answer IMO is quite plainly that they should not. For the exact same reason though (religious neutrality of the state and its institutions) the answer to whether or not the students may wear crucifixes, headscarves or whatnot is yes.

I find the whole debate something of an embarrassement. This sort of law serves no purpose other than to further marginalize the very extremists they are somehow hoping to convert by tearing off their headscarves.

Darbls, the scary ones among religious extremists already have their own, fundamentalist schools. What this law does is force the *moderates* to send their kids there too. Not exactly a master plan to contain the extremists and integrate the moderates, IMO.
 

Rostam

PSN: Rostam_
May 1, 2001
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They want to ban all headgear during classes in Holland (if I recall correctly anyway). I find this just as stupid.

Making it impossible for a muslim girl to go to a public school will only create more extremists.

Meh I'd rather make all schools public. And then do things like 'teaching' the students.

edit: instaposted. Wolf being managed to explain what I wanted to make clear better... I shouldn't have spoken.
 
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SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
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MetalMickey said:
Anyone else find it ironic that someone who jumps and screams about big bad governments interference in her precious right to bear arms has no issues with the government interfering with peoples rights to wear religious symbols?

I would object if they tried to pass such a law here in the U.S., but this is France. Their legal system is different, and it's certainly a good idea for them to utilize its advantages, not just wallow in its disadvantages.

In any case, Islam is a religion that is inherently friendly to terrorism; as such, I see no problem whatsoever with the government stepping in and saying you're not allowed to broadcast your support of it in public places.
 
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SaraP

New Member
Feb 12, 2002
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Wolf Being said:
Darbls, the scary ones among religious extremists already have their own, fundamentalist schools. What this law does is force the *moderates* to send their kids there too. Not exactly a master plan to contain the extremists and integrate the moderates, IMO.

See, that's a good thing. You know exactly where to bomb when the time comes.
 

jaunty

Active Member
Apr 30, 2000
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SaraP said:
I would object if they tried to pass such a law here in the U.S., but this is France. Their legal system is different, and it's certainly a good idea for them to utilize its advantages, not just wallow in its disadvantages.

In any case, Islam is a religion that is inherently friendly to terrorism; as such, I see no problem whatsoever with the government stepping in and saying you're not allowed to broadcast your support of it in public places.

Are you insane or just a fascist?

How is Islam any more terrorist-friendly than christianity? Or have we forgotten about the abortion clinic bombings and shootings? Just shut up. If I didn't know better I'd think you were just trolling. I hope and pray that somebody with a shotgun gives you a full hystorectomy. People like you don't deserve to breed.
 

BobTheFearlessFish

New Member
Jun 2, 2000
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Nottingham, England
is it just me who thinks we should be teaching tolerance rather than ignorance. the one area where i felt my schools have done incredible well is tolerance of race. i went to a school where whites were in the minority. and up until the age of 8 i wouldnt even describe somebody as black. not because i thought it was racist to do so. but because the thought didnt even cross my mind. it just wasnt an issue.

im all for seperation of eligion and state. but in my opinion this does the opposite. the government is now getting involved in religion.

oh. and as for what sarap said. well that beats all the bull**** to come out of her mouth to date. quite an acievement.
 

Freon

Braaaaiinss...
Jan 27, 2002
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BobTheFearlessFish said:
im all for seperation of eligion and state. but in my opinion this does the opposite. the government is now getting involved in religion.
Well it would if it only was only aimed at a single religion