Debate: is realistic the bulk system? (ra3, please?!)

I think this is because whatever ammo is loaded into the weapon does not count as bulk.

Correct. Was this intentional? I also notice that even if you select no ammo for a weapon in the loadout, it still comes with an empty mag. Minor point, but still...

Not for nothing, but I would imagine that a trained individual, used to marching and jogging miles in full gear, would be able to move relatively quickly and nimbly..even with a MINIMI and armor... The loadout given isn't excessive by any means: a primary weapon with ONE can of ammo, a pistol with a couple mags, a helmet and body armor...given that the person using such a loadoud would..theoretically..have been going through maneuvers and such WITH said loadout....

Mason said:

Not for nothing, but I would imagine that a trained individual, used to marching and jogging miles in full gear, would be able to move relatively quickly and nimbly..even with a MINIMI and armor... The loadout given isn't excessive by any means: a primary weapon with ONE can of ammo, a pistol with a couple mags, a helmet and body armor...given that the person using such a loadoud would..theoretically..have been going through maneuvers and such WITH said loadout....

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Umm... no. Soldiers aren't supermen. They are just regular guys who exercise regularly. That doesn't mean that a heavy backpack won't slow them down and encumber them.

But this does seem like a big issue with the bulk system. What is the difference between a "light" loadout that gives you a full stamina bar and a "heavy" loadout that gives you a full bar. I haven't really noticed a difference until the bulk actually causes the stamina bar to shrink.

keihaswarrior said:

Umm... no. Soldiers aren't supermen. They are just regular guys who exercise regularly. That doesn't mean that a heavy backpack won't slow them down and encumber them.

But this does seem like a big issue with the bulk system. What is the difference between a "light" loadout that gives you a full stamina bar and a "heavy" loadout that gives you a full bar. I haven't really noticed a difference until the bulk actually causes the stamina bar to shrink.

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The difference between a heavy and a light loadout that both do not affect the stamina bar is that you are able to pickup ammo, weapons and claymores using the light loadout then in-game without a stamina drop and for the heavy loadout you will start to get overloaded and your stamina will drop then of course.

So you define if you want to be able to pickup additional ammo and weapons from dead players or if you can take a clay out of one of the crates within some maps without getting affected too much then or if it will slow you down heavily if you pickup a claymore somewhere or grab the minimi from a dead team mate to then lay down some suppressive fire yourself and still being able to move around with a medium speed without the need to drop your own weapon before you pick it up.

So, again, you define what you are able to do... in every situation that may occur. And so you define how you will be able to react to a specific situation that maybe shows up during the match.

Beppo

Ok, how should i describe this further then?

Well, the bulk system is based on some simple factors and 'rules':

a) Everything the soldier wants to carry around with him has a weight and size that can be transformed into a bulk value for this object.
b) Every soldier can carry a specific weight or has room for equipment based on its size.
c) The soldier 'balances' the equipment in such a way that the bigger sized things are stored in places where they affect the soldiers movement not much at all or tries to find the best spot for it automatically. Same for heavy and light objects they are stored at the best spot possible.

This all forms an as easy to understand as possible system based on a simple value named total bulk. Every object gets a bulk value based on its size, weight and the ability to store it somewhere without affecting the soldier too much. So you only need to sum up these values to get your final total bulk factor.
The total bulk is then compared to a max bulk factor the average soldier can take without getting affected. If the total bulk gets higher than this max factor, then bulk will start to affect the soldier and that is reflected in reducing his maximum stamina that then affects the movement aso of course. The more bulk you are carrying the heavier is the impact then... so it doesn't rise linear from this point on.

The 'free' amount of bulk you can carry with you without getting affected is easy to explain too and realistic of course. To make the example a bit extreme you can simply check out yourself. So you can easily walk around with just wearing some shorts, or you can wear standard clothing and you will not be affected then even if it is a 'heavy' jeans compared to the very light shorts. Same with the top stuff... a simple T-shirt or a heavier sweatshirt. Now try to move this towards a soldier. A soldier was trained to carry his equipment and due to the high amount of training and the time passing he gets used to carry around 'some' stuff even on longer distances. So you can setup a specific amount of bulk the soldier can carry with him without being affected at all. If he now decides to to carry more than he is used to then it will start to affect him of course but if he carries lesser with him than he is used too then he will not automatically gain more stamina for example. You cannot make 150% out of a 100% maximum.

I hope this gets you away from the simple 'hey this is a bug' idea you have cause this is thought through a lot and matching the real thing pretty good.

And I have already named reasons for carrying not as much stuff with you than you are able to before it starts to affect your stamina before. So this whole bulk system is simulating the real side of things pretty good actually.

Beppo

umm a loadout of 60 defintly effects your stamina in game, you'll be out of stamina just jogging to thye frontline, with my recon loadouts I can jog almost indefintly and have enough stamina to sprint a good distance If I want to get the hell out of dodge once I snag that CD

I dont think anything is wrong with the bulk system

I think you vinillas are just too used to sprinting around like a bunch of rambos

Keihas, I didn't insinuate that soldiers were supermen, but BECAUSE of their training, they would be better able to move around with more of a load than your or I (that should be pretty obvious). The loadout in question was 1 MINIMI, 1 Pistol with a couple mags, 2 nades, body armor (IIIA), and a helmet. I am not factoring in a backpack or anything else (except obvious things like boots, etc.). Maybe the level IIIA armor is throwing me off a bit...

No, soldiers aren't supermen, but I HAVE seen guys carring this type of loadout who seemed to be moving pretty rapidly. Maybe they were wearing lighter body armor....

In any event, the movement seems, at times, to be too slow and the 'bob' a tad too pronounced (maybe it was exaggerated for gameplay balance, in which case I understand)....

some soldiers ARE supermen.
if you see the special forces like the marines , the foreign legion , those guys are realy rambo's

Vega-don said:

some soldiers ARE supermen.
if you see the special forces like the marines , the foreign legion , those guys are realy rambo's

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No, they're not. Even the British SAS, who have the most training of any special forces, and the para's who have to go through p-company (actually the consensus within the regiment is that p-company is tougher physically than SAS selection), they are not superhumans by any means. They are just fit individuals. Any professional or even good amateur athlete will be fitter. Those special forces guys are trained to keep going, endurance is the thing, not fitness for sprints or jogs particularly (although obviously they're a bit better than the average American...), but multi-day walks with packs.

Geoff

Turin_Turambar said:

No, the problem for me is the contrary, i have been accustomed with RaV2, where the stuff weights more. Imho, the actual difference between a "light" loadout and a "heavy" loadout is too much small, i would like more penalties with a heavy loadout.

Ideally (and also a very general classification):

Light loadout -> 100% stamina bar in the beginning.
Medium loadout -> 80% staminar bar.
Heavy loadout -> 60% staminar bar.

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Then you would end up with moving turtles that once were your fire support carrying a minimi or a grenade launcher...

Maybe you missed one little thing... the backpack will not be visible for the lighter guys and the heavier ones will have one giving them a bit more 'size' in the distance. The backpack is not droppable so this has to be taken in mind too. And you seem to ignore the facts I already listed regarding the ability to pickup things. You never know what situation you might encounter during the match. And if you have loaded so many things already that you cannot even take a claymore out of a box without moving like a turtle later on then you definetly cannot jump into certain situations that may occur.
Sure a player that only wants to rush over to the other team and not checking for support or not willing to jump in for a dead comrade doesn't care, but this is still a team game were each soldier has its role and if needed has to be able to take the one of others additionaly.

And to your percentages... load yourself up so that you only have 60% of your stamina left right from the start and tell me if you want to be forced to move this slowly. You would be dead before you reached the middle of the road if you try to cross it... and I'm not speakig about a motor drive or highway... a small road, maybe eight meters.

ehehe, Beppo always pwns in each post

Actually, the whole stamina system is unrealistic. Carrying a heavy pack does not reduce your stamina, it increases the rate at which your stamina drops during physical activity. The thing where you breath harder just because you are carrying more stuff is highly unrealistic.
Everyone should always start with 100% stamina no matter how much stuff they have. The bulk would reduce their max speed, max acceleration, and it would increase the rate at which stamina drops. Also, even 1 bulk would have a very slight effect.

Lastly, what is the max bulk before stamina drop?

The harder breathing is a result of the lower stamina nothing more so it would fit in your description of stamina. Same for the speed, the more stamina you have the faster you can go, still within your description. The different bulk values that result in the same stamina right from the start is in your description too and so our system isn't off at all. The more you carry doesn't affect your max stamina at all... UNTIL you get overloaded. All players with lower total bulk to the maximum total bulk that is 'allowed' to stay within the 'standard' will have the same max stamina right from the start. All have the same values. So all start with the 100%.

IF you have a lower max stamina right from the start then you started overloaded already. Means you are carrying too much stuff right from the start and so you do not have the same stamina as all the others.

What is so off with that?? All start with the maximum, it only drops below right from the start if you carry more than you 'are designed for'. So, nothing is unrealistic here at all. I hope you understood the little difference here

The bulk value you have right from the start - as said before - will automatically be reduced by the amount all mags and rounds already loaded do have. For standard weapons this works best and so we kept it this way cause the 'extra' mag is no longer somewhere in your pockets, it is already loaded into the weapon and doesn't produce extra bulk. Ok, it still has the weight but we kept it this simple to avoid different calculations for ie the box of a minimi and a standard STANAG mag. So keep this in mind before you say that loadout xyz with this and that total bulk has the same stamina as another one with a different total bulk number. It is explained by the already subtracted bulk values of the first rounds and mags loaded.

So, the maximum bulk value before the soldier starts to get overloaded is:
45 (not including all already loaded first mags and rounds)

Beppo

keihaswarrior said:

... Everyone should always start with 100% stamina no matter how much stuff they have. ...

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I forgot to reply to this little sentence directly it seems...
If all soldiers - even the overloaded ones - would pick up their stuff directly at the drop in zone then they would start with 100% max, then they pick up the stuff and the ones that are overloaded - carrying too much - will directly get a stamina drop. Even then it would be correct ... ever tried to lift some heavy stuff? Your stamina drops directly while doing so.
And keep in mind that the soldiers are already equiped at the time they drop into the game.

And again to the different stamina losses you describe. The players use up stamina within specific movement or positions. And the players regenerate in specific posiitons while not or only slowly moving.
If you would now change the system that these values will be directly affected based on your current bulk then some would never have the chance to regain stamina at ll, or with such a low rate that it is almost impossible to fight for some minutes after you had to make a jog thru a city or a sprint to the other side of the street.
So the regeneration is only based on the current stamina value and the position taken that lets you regain some stamina. Due to the fact that the maximum stamina is directly affected by the total bulk this all balances out very good.

So, if you really have a better stamina system then tell us how it should work and please think it thru to let it work in all situations.

Beppo