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View Full Version : EULA clarifications, "game" use, etc. info


Vito
26th Oct 2003, 05:46 PM
After a looooooooong chat in #BeyondUnreal with TossMonkey and others, I'm removing all the threads and posts regarding licensing, the EULA, if you can make a game or not, etc., and putting together a FAQ. I'll also update the wiki.

I have to run it by Epic first, so it'll be 24-48 hours before it goes up. Please don't post new threads about it.

Thanks for the questions, everyone!

Vito
28th Oct 2003, 10:07 PM
Epic's decided to simply update the EULA. Looks like we're just about done. I'm satisfied with what it says, personally, and I think the "commercial exploitation" licenses (or simply getting written approval from Epic, as the license states) will cover the corner cases.

Vito
29th Oct 2003, 01:14 AM
New Runtime EULA (http://udn.epicgames.com/pub/Powered/UnrealEngine2RuntimeEULA/)

This is the current, possibly final draft of the new EULA for the Runtime. Comments welcome, and UDN will be updated with a lot of new information tomorrow/Thursday/Friday, including an updated Runtime with this included.

Please don't post this to BU or PU or anyplace until the updates all go up.

Gawes
29th Oct 2003, 06:57 AM
I didn't really get, why Epic is against Games made with the Runtime. Because the EULA forbids commercial use, i think it wouldn't harm, if some Community members produce Games and distribute them as freeware. Actually there are not many People even able to do so, so wheres the Problem?
But however. If thats the descission, we have to live with it.
But the Question still remains, when is it a game and when not?
Is TseTse's Idea of the IRC-Chat with "Games" a game? Its also educational.
Or what about Daid303's Droids?

Hao Niu-rou
29th Oct 2003, 07:07 AM
Thanks for the updated EULA

Anyways, I figured as much that was the reason, mind you I don't blame them :P

But that says we can make games for ourselves, but we can't share them right?

Daid303
29th Oct 2003, 07:35 AM
But the Question still remains, when is it a game and when not?
Is TseTse's Idea of the IRC-Chat with "Games" a game? Its also educational.
Or what about Daid303's Droids?
Personaly I think TseTse's idea of IRC-games can be done, you can't really say that any IRC-game (as long as it isn't any "real"-time action game) wouldn't effect epic selling unrealengines.

I don't see a 3D mine sweeper in IRC be a real compitition
against any 3D action game.

But remember that i'm NOT related to Epic, so they'll have to decide.

About my droids.... yes.... it's a question on it's own, is it a game or a dev. tool? (It might be a good idea to get everything into compilible code so I could port it to any engine easly, I only need to find out how to port staticmeshes WITH karma stuff over)

Sir_Brizz
29th Oct 2003, 09:16 AM
5. Just so we are clear here: development of a game using the Runtime Software is permissible. Releasing that game via any means to anyone is not!

To me this sounds like, "Yes! Make games, but don't release them. Send them to us if they are good enough so we can pay you money!" ;)

Vito
29th Oct 2003, 11:22 AM
Hey, you guys were the ones screaming for a ruling on "games" without specifying what "games" were yourselves. Now there is one, and you're complaining again. I warned you repeatedly this would happen.

If you're concerned your project is game, you should consult a lawyer, or email licensing@epicgames.com with a description of your project.

Or, just don't release it.

[SAS]Solid Snake
29th Oct 2003, 12:32 PM
Well, at least we have it cleared up. Thanks Vito for the work you have provided and the work you have done. I can understand Epic's ruling on this, and well, at least they are benefitting the research/educational department somewhat.

I am a little disappointed but not surprised.

I may still play around with this RunTime, but I don't really see the point, as all I really want to do is make interactive entertainment.

oxygen
29th Oct 2003, 02:48 PM
Whats the definition of release? Does it mean giving some one a copy of my 'game' or making it publicly available. I have a friend who wants to make a map for my game, am I allowed to send him the .u, .utx, etc, files so he can make a map?

Vito
29th Oct 2003, 02:52 PM
Please read the EULA. "YOU MAY NOT USE THE RUNTIME SOFTWARE TO DEVELOP GAMES FOR RELEASE VIA ANY MEANS TO ANY FORM OF END-USER." Any means, to any form of end user. That means, any way you can possibly conceive to get around it; and to anyone you can possibly think of. You cannot give anyone anything.

TossMonkey
29th Oct 2003, 02:56 PM
oxygen, personal use. I mean, obviously it would take a team of people to create a game project, and by release it's a distribution outside of the development team (such as serving the file over ftp, or distributing by some other media probably like CD's on games mags, or whatever).

I do think the runtime is a great idea, especially for amateur developers. Sir_Brizz has said what I wanted to say, but I don't think it's a bad thing as what it seems like to him. You could create a great game with the runtime, send it off to Epic and theres a chance it could get published. Although you most likely couldn't pay the fee's of the engine outright they may be willing to cut a percentage or whatever.

Sir_Brizz
29th Oct 2003, 04:15 PM
I don't think it's a bad thing. Not at all...I'm sorry if my post made you think I was complaining or anything. I think the Runtime is awesome. Small time developers can try their hand at the Unreal Engine and see what they can pull off.

I'm curious though, does the EULA stuff you mentioned cause any grief if a small studio does that and then shows it off to Epic, or any other publisher/developer type of company to try to get into the industry?

AmazingJas
1st Nov 2003, 11:30 PM
hmmm, but if you downloaded/installed the initial release that didn't mention games at all...

[SAS]Solid Snake
2nd Nov 2003, 12:23 AM
The EULA can be changed by Epic at any time, for any reason and it was written in the first one, which you had to have agreed to in order to download it. Since the EULA has changed, you must accept it.

Read the EULA again.

Honestly AmazingJas your just going to stirup trouble by saying what you said and also confuse a lot more people, especially those who heard about the release of the runtime but not the changed EULA.

AmazingJas
3rd Nov 2003, 06:51 AM
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but I do think legally, you can't change a contract after the event, unless both parties agree. Unless there was something in the agreement that said that you have to accept any future changes in retrospect, which may be in there, but I didn't notice. Which would be ridiculous because they could add in later that you have to give em your first born son or something...I am peeved because I spent a fair bit of time learning how to use the Unreal engine because of this opportunity, now I'm left with a sour taste. I've scrapped my project because of the now restrictive implications, and my overall opinion of Epic has suffered to boot. It was a great opportunity that has turned into a non-event.

Daid303
3rd Nov 2003, 07:20 AM
Termination. This license is effective until one of us terminate it.
Basicly, Epic terminated the old license, and made a new one. So you actualy have to remove your current one, and install the new one (with is the same but with a new licence) unless you don't agree with the new licence, then you have to destroy the software and all related documents.

Alhanalem
3rd Nov 2003, 08:05 AM
Daid is correct.

No one seems to realize thata epic created this for learning purposes, because a 3D engine like this could have so many applications besides games. Its to learn the inner workings of the engine and create something productive.

GiZm0`
3rd Nov 2003, 08:16 AM
so what else can u do with runtime if not games? just wondering :D (examples plz, not answears like "many other stuff")

Daid303
3rd Nov 2003, 01:01 PM
Stuff to create:
IRC, AI, 3D simulations (not 100% accurate, but what gives? it's realtime)

Stuff to lean:
How does OOP work?
How do 3D vector maths work?
.... someone help me over here? :)

Wormbo
3rd Nov 2003, 01:13 PM
Stuff to create:
IRC, AI, 3D simulations (not 100% accurate, but what gives? it's realtime)

Stuff to lean:
How does OOP work?
How do 3D vector maths work?
.... someone help me over here? :)
How to use the Unreal Engine in general? :)

punk129
3rd Nov 2003, 07:17 PM
You also can teach your students at school. If you come into the school with a copy of UT2003 to teach the students using the UEd the students' parents start crying! (Don't know how it's in the USA, but in Germany it's like I described)

Sir_Brizz
3rd Nov 2003, 08:54 PM
in the USA if it's a college level class, the parent's can't say anything anyways. They can sure whine and whatever, but the students don't HAVE to take the course and it's the teachers prerogative what to include in the course material. I sure wish we had game programming courses at my university.

AmazingJas
3rd Nov 2003, 09:06 PM
But if you use it at school (and do some homework with it) and then give it to your teacher to mark: you have distributed it and therefore broken the EULA..Forget it, it's useless now for even learning game stuff now.

[SAS]Solid Snake
4th Nov 2003, 02:55 AM
you have distributed it and therefore broken the EULA

It depends what the original project was. If it was a game design project then yes. If it was an AI logic program than no. Granted that the definition of a game is very loose, but basically what Epic don't want is people to release games out to the public which will hinder their sales, which is a fair thing to do. So they don't want people release RunTime Tournament or something.

Forget it, it's useless now for even learning game stuff now.It is still a good tool and will be valuable to the game design schools there. They can use the RunTime to show what is capable in the game and the limitations of making game content. Possibilities of being able to tell stories and concepts but in an interactive way. Limitations such as why you can't have 1000000 polygons for a stone that will populate the field. These kind of projects and learnings aids are much better since user developed engines usually aren't fast enough compared to commercially developed engines.

The RunTime is created for that purpose and this sole purpose. Read the other posts why this is.

Sir_Brizz
4th Nov 2003, 07:56 PM
IMO turning an assignment in to your teacher who then grades it and does nothing more with it is hardly what I would consider distribution.

Besides the fact you would be giving out your code. I mean for heavens sake...you could just give your code to your teacher and let them do what they want with it. Especially if teachers have their own models, etc that you have to build off of.