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WHIPperSNAPper
26th Aug 2003, 01:36 PM
Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment

I recently submitted a CTF map to Nali City and soon learned that the comment feature was locked. I know that the name might make evoke snickers, but it's really just an excellent map that falls into the fast-paced, high body count, tight map category alongside the likes of the popular Dreary, Gazpacho, Niven, Eternal Caves, and Burning.

The construction is solid. The zoning is good, it's HOM free, and it includes zoned location ID tags. The bot pathing is very good, the use of textures is good, and the passages look great, many having their own unique texturing. The lighting enhances the textures and adds some atmosphere, and the item placement is excellent and works to balance the numerous path options. The map has a semi-intricate, symmetrical design and also features beautiful custom music. I have played it online against others several times and it is fun. People don't flee the server when it comes up in the rotation.

I hope that Nali City will please reconsider its decision and open the comments and user rating features. If not, then in fairness could we please delete all comments and user ratings? It isn't fair for one person, the first user to comment, to have a monopoly on user feedback--it gives people a distorted view because they only see one opinion. If the commentary is locked, then the map's fans can't rate it and comment. I invite people in the community to judge for themselves whether or not it should be open for comment. Here is a download link:

http://www.beyondunreal.com/dl.php/nalicity/utctf/ctf-dagnys-tubes-of-spam.zip

I recommend setting up a practice game with 9 bots (5-on-5) set to the Adept skill level and 125% speed (to simulate real human opponents). You can also play the map online at this server: 166.70.124.87 or UTCTF2.thegamebox.net

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Some comments from people who have played it online (posted in other forums):

Lord Demios: It was quite a fun level Dagny. It was very fast and very action packed. This map really doesn't have the spammy feel in the critical areas. With four ways into the base, you can always take a different route to the flag. The game almost felt as fast paced as assault.

Seven of 69: Even if you don't like spammy maps, this one is pretty to look at and features texture usage that I've never seen before. Tho inspired by Crap Park, ToS has much more attention to detail and all the tubes are color coded, so you won't get lost. Plus all your fav weapons and powerups are available. Dagny, I think that the premier of ToS was great! It plays surprisingly well and is far better than Crap Park. Plus it looks good and the color-coded tubes mean that you at least know your approximate relation to which base you're in. Also, once you realize that each tube has a different texture, it's easy to figure out where you are.

Afroman: twisted map dagny! by looking at the pics, looks like there is enough maunevering room to get around some of the flak.

ToWnPrEp: Ooooooo I like! It's very kewl looking, and with a small groups, this will be a kick @$$ map.

[OSX]Spectre: Good job dags..I was pretty impressed. I thought the map was much better than carpark mostly because it felt larger, and well.. less spammy. It still is spammy, but not so much that it becomes really really annoying. Yeah, it doesn't feel as spammy as say command, or even coret.

Shmanky: Like it because it requires a different type of gameplay than one may be accustomed to, making for a unique experience.

darth_weasel
26th Aug 2003, 02:00 PM
i dont think you'd get comments as nice here as you do on unreal playground...

particularly when you talk it up with phrases like "excellent map" :/

*edit* i just played it, but ill save comments for when/if the comments section is opened

WHIPperSNAPper
26th Aug 2003, 02:12 PM
I might have layered it on kind of thick, but the map does have a very solid construction to it. Objectively, as someone who has personally examined and rated over 300 maps and played hundreds more, I think it has very fun game play for its genre. I'm very pleased with how it turned out--great looks and it's fast-paced, action packed, and suspenseful online.

I really don't mean to sell the map in this forum. I just want to get the comments and user rating features re-opened. My point is that it isn't a joke map and that it deserves to be open for comment, even if it's controversial because of its genre.

My first map, CTF-DagnysBigAssMap, scored an average of 6 in the user ratings and earned a 52 in an Unreal Playground review, which is pretty decent. I think Tubes of Spam is much better than my first. My focus for Tubes of Spam was the online game play and not on adding fancy stuff like windows looking out into rotating space, track lighting, masonry, or a high poly count.

Bot_40
26th Aug 2003, 02:35 PM
This map is far from great. To be brutally honist, it's a bunch of cubes and rotated cylinders.

No decent architecture? Check.
Missaligned textures? Check
Horrible texture choice? Check
Poor boring layout which is fun for a few mins, but then gets boring fast? Check
Unsourced lighting? Check
Lack of ambient sounds or theme? Check

Now before you go and argue against every one of those points/Unleash the flames on me, let me tell you that you can ask any decent well known mapper in the community and they will all say the same (DavidM, Tonnberry, Hourences, even CliffyB if you want :con: )

Unreal playground has built up a bit of a reputation for being too "polite" to critisise any map harshly.
Nalicity has the opposite reputation for being basicly, honist about a map. If a map owns, we say so. If a map sucks, we say so. There is no point in saying a map is something that it isn't. That just leads to over-inflated egos and flamewars (which is about to happen here).
You can critisise this all you want, but at the end of the day, all the best mappers you can name in the community were part of/still are part of nalicity. And even by critisising nalicity you would just be backing up our own argument :p

And I predict that you are going to reply saying that the map has amazing gameplay online (not against bots) and that visuals in a map don't matter if the map plays well. I warn you in advance, if you start trying to argue that this map has good gameplay you're in for one hell of a ride :p

Zarkazm
26th Aug 2003, 02:49 PM
Gameplay is provided by the game. That's why it's originally called gameplay I suspect. :o
This isn't even a map. I could as well wrap myself in a piece of cloth and call it a cloak.

darth_weasel
26th Aug 2003, 03:10 PM
oh well since this has become the comments seciton ill copy+paste my comment here


there is almost zero z-axis here its almost all over one level. there were often 16health vials in a row which was odd. there is zero detail brushwork, you're either in a cubic room or a cylindrical(sp) tube, and there were no light sources whatsoever. the textures on the tubes weren't aligned either.

the bots done their job though

WHIPperSNAPper
26th Aug 2003, 06:00 PM
I apologize if my self-promotion has offended the sensibilities of the forum regulars here at Nali City. That was not my intent. I just wanted to explain why I feel the user comments and ratings section should be re-opened. I certainly understand people's visceral, negative reaction to this kind of self- promotion.

My goal was to build a successor to CTF-CarPark. People laugh at CarPark, and I understand the reasons why, but it has received more online playing time then a great many other maps. I think Tubes Of Spam is better than CarPark in many areas--build quality, design, symmetry, texturing, fun factor, etc.

It seems to me that when you rate a map, the overwhelming factor should be how much fun it is to play online against real people, which would factor in things like item placement, path options, and the overall layout, having better than functional lighting, basic looks, and perhaps bot pathing. I think that should be worth about 70% of a review score. A work of art that plays poorly online doesn't have too much value IMHO.

I rate Tubes Of Spam as an 8 on a strict 10% distribution in comparison to all other CTF maps which would include all the crappy ones no one ever hears about or sees and where the top 10% of the maps earn a score of 10, the next 10% a score of 9, etc. I'd give it a 7 on a Gaussian distribution (where the overwhelming majority falls in between scores of 3 and 7). Of course, the map has to be judged within the context of its genre and the game play that genre tends to have. It's hard to take seriously someone's criticism that a tight, spammy map intended for 8 players is bad because it's full of spam with 12 players. I would hope that others would be fair and give Tubes Of Spam at least a 5 when considered amongst all the other CTF maps that exist. Since I'm tooting my own horn for the purpose of making an argument to unlock the comments and user ratings feature, I'm sure it must be very tempting to tear into me and to berate it and offer up such "honest" ratings as 0 and -1, but I hope that people will consider it objectively and without malice. I don't think it deserves to be stuck with a user rating of 2 and a nasty comment just because one person who looked at it doesn't appreciate it's genre and didn't try it online, especially when I know others who have played it online and enjoyed it.


No decent architecture? Check. Poor boring layout which is fun for a few mins, but then gets boring fast? Check

When I said "architecture", I basically meant overall layout and design, not whether or not brushes with trimmed corners and support bracing for the walls were used.

I know you're trying to tear down the map as a negative reaction to my self-promotion, Bot 40, but consider what is there. The tubes have bends instead of just being straight; that must be worth something positive in an evaluation. The layout is semi-intricate. (Open it in the Editor, fly up above it, and look down.) It's symmetrical yet not overly simplistic and instead of just having passages intersect at 90 degree angles, paths often meet rooms at bent angles. There are opportunities for hammer jumps and boot jumps as a means of escaping with the flag; it does have some Z-axis.

I'm sure the layout for ThornsV2, which also lacks Z-axis, gets boring very fast, too, yet that map has been canonized as a clan ladder map and players join servers for it, which is no small feat.

Missaligned textures? Check Horrible texture choice? Check

I agree that there is some texture misalignment in the flag bases. I know that it's possible to see the bends on the sides of the tubes themselves; I think they look great and that I did a nice job with the textures and texture choices in that area. I agree that the map doesn't have the world's greatest texture usage, but it is far from being horrible. If the texturing were compared with that of every other custom map that's ever been made, I'm sure it would be no worse than average and probably better. I'm very pleased with how the tubes turned out.

Unsourced lighting? Check Lack of ambient sounds or theme? Check

OK, but should that one detail be the entire basis for judging a map or even a significant basis? It pales in comparison to the importance of the online game play. I'm sure flag runners spend time thinking about the lighting sources instead of focussing on whether going to check on the shield belt is worth the risk of exposing one's self in the center of the map or whether the basement route might be safer.

As for lack of ambient sounds--most maps don't include that and Tubes Of Spam has good custom music which is much more than I can say for many maps that don't have any music at all or that just recycle the standard music.

Theme? Review the map's name. (Theme is another one of those things which are nice, but don't really impact how fun a map is. CTF-Terra doesn't have much of a theme, but it's also been canonized as a clan laddermap.)

Someone mentioned the 20 health vials in a row in one of the central tubes. I would have preferred to have had a keg there instead, but I decided to go with 20 health vials because I felt it would be the best way for players to distinguish between the two similarly situated tubes. The location ID tags read "Tube of Keg" and "Tube of Vials".

Flame away.

darth_weasel
26th Aug 2003, 06:20 PM
it isnt that really i think it would get the same ratings no matter what you said about it.

you should study classic maps like DM-Scimitar to pick up tricks for your next map :)


*cough* :)

WHIPperSNAPper
26th Aug 2003, 06:30 PM
I thank whoever opened the map for user ratings and comments.

Mister_Prophet
26th Aug 2003, 11:38 PM
My goal was to build a successor to CTF-CarPark. People laugh at CarPark, and I understand the reasons why

No you don't, otherwise you would not have made a successor map.

but it has received more online playing time then a great many other maps.

This means what exactly? Loads of sh!t maps get the most online playing time, why? Because most people are stupid, which is why rap and pop music top the music charts, why 90% of movies contain lots of explosions and sex yet with no plot, and why gamers glorify crappy maps. Your argument about playing time means nothing in the matter of your map sucking as much as it does.

I think Tubes Of Spam is better than CarPark in many areas--build quality, design, symmetry, texturing, fun factor, etc.

I can think of 1000 maps that are better than CarPark too, and they are better than Tubes of Spam as well.

It seems to me that when you rate a map, the overwhelming factor should be how much fun it is to play online against real people, which would factor in things like item placement, path options, and the overall layout, having better than functional lighting, basic looks, and perhaps bot pathing.

Yes, of course that is exactly what it means to rate a map...and I did that. Your map fails in almost every category you mentioned.

I think that should be worth about 70% of a review score.

No. That is 100% of the review score.

A work of art that plays poorly online doesn't have too much value IMHO.

Agreed. But what you fail to realize is that a map with good gameplay but fugly visuals is the exact same thing. Visuals and gameplay of a good map should always be in equal compariosn and well done for the map to be considered good, and guess what, your gameplay AND visuals are both low.

I rate Tubes Of Spam as an 8 on a strict 10% distribution in comparison to all other CTF maps which would include all the crappy ones no one ever hears about or sees and where the top 10% of the maps earn a score of 10, the next 10% a score of 9, etc. I'd give it a 7 on a Gaussian distribution (where the overwhelming majority falls in between scores of 3 and 7).

K, what you just said right there is total bullcrap.

Of course, the map has to be judged within the context of its genre and the game play that genre tends to have.

Thank you, Professor.

It's hard to take seriously someone's criticism that a tight, spammy map intended for 8 players is bad because it's full of spam with 12 players.

It's hard to take seriously the fact that you don't realize how strange that statment is. you just described your map as "tight and spammy". Since when is Spammy a good thing? And your map is so tight it can even be spammy with 2 people, that is not cool.


I would hope that others would be fair and give Tubes Of Spam at least a 5 when considered amongst all the other CTF maps that exist.

I did, you still fall short and land a 2 rating.

Since I'm tooting my own horn for the purpose of making an argument to unlock the comments and user ratings feature, I'm sure it must be very tempting to tear into me and to berate it and offer up such "honest" ratings as 0 and -1

It isn't tempting, it is frustrating. You think we come online and say "gee I wonder what newbie mapper we can make cry today!". Actually not like that.

but I hope that people will consider it objectively and without malice.

I didn't say a single work about your map till I played it, my review is 100% objective.

I don't think it deserves to be stuck with a user rating of 2 and a nasty comment just because one person who looked at it doesn't appreciate it's genre and didn't try it online, especially when I know others who have played it online and enjoyed it.

Well, of course you want your map to get a good rating. But I played it online, I played it 7 times. 7. 7 Times dude. And there will always be that small crowd of people who will tell you your map rocks when it obviously doesnt and everyone else says it doesnt either.


When I said "architecture", I basically meant overall layout and design, not whether or not brushes with trimmed corners and support bracing for the walls were used.

Well, to settle it, your layout, architecture, and overall design all suck.

I know you're trying to tear down the map as a negative reaction to my self-promotion, Bot 40, but consider what is there.

Bot_40 is probably one the best judges of good mappage I've ever seen in this community, and he obviously played your map and told you why it isn't good. You just don't want to hear it, but it is being told to you by a number of people here. Unless we tell you the map rocks, you aren't really gonna listen.

The tubes have bends instead of just being straight; that must be worth something positive in an evaluation.

Whoa....holy sh!t....bends?

It's symmetrical yet not overly simplistic and instead of just having passages intersect at 90 degree angles, paths often meet rooms at bent angles.

Since when is symmetry something to gloat about? Making a CTF symmetrical is one of the easiest things about making a CTF map. If you made an effective asymmetrical map, that would be something cool, but your map...which IS overly simplistic, is just another brick in the wall. And so what if your map is at bent angles....what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING?

There are opportunities for hammer jumps and boot jumps as a means of escaping with the flag; it does have some Z-axis.

Z-Axis doesnt count for shooting a translocator through a hole in a wall. Most of your map is on level ground without any way to view the rest of the map unless you go through *sigh* doorways.

I'm sure the layout for ThornsV2, which also lacks Z-axis, gets boring very fast, too, yet that map has been canonized as a clan ladder map and players join servers for it, which is no small feat.

No small feat? Pu-frickity-lease, if I took a crap in a paper bag and handed it to some clan ladder, they would cannonize that to, clan ladders suck ok. And if some clan punk wants to protest, sit down and shut the hell up, because you suck.


I agree that there is some texture misalignment in the flag bases. I know that it's possible to see the bends on the sides of the tubes themselves

Dude, every room or corridor in your map has one fugly misalignment after another.

I think they look great and that I did a nice job with the textures and texture choices in that area.

Imagine a vast desert. Imagine you are standing in the middle, talking, yet nobody is around to nod there head and clap hands.

I agree that the map doesn't have the world's greatest texture usage, but it is far from being horrible.

It's far from being mediocre. You have as basic texturing as I've ever seen, theres no difference between the texturing in your map then with DM-1on1-Turbine or CTF-AndAction.


If the texturing were compared with that of every other custom map that's ever been made, I'm sure it would be no worse than average and probably better.

I don't think so. No, definetly not.


OK, but should that one detail be the entire basis for judging a map or even a significant basis?

It is a significant visual basis that goes hand in hand with the gameplay and other design flaws.

It pales in comparison to the importance of the online game play.

Kinda like your map pales in comparision to the description you gave of it.

I'm sure flag runners spend time thinking about the lighting sources instead of focussing on whether going to check on the shield belt is worth the risk of exposing one's self in the center of the map or whether the basement route might be safer.

Yes, we all stand still in the open, inspecting the ceiling and walls of the map. Oh shut up.

As for lack of ambient sounds--most maps don't include that

And those maps have lower atmosphere presence as a result.

and Tubes Of Spam has good custom music which is much more than I can say for many maps that don't have any music at all or that just recycle the standard music.

They music track is palpable, in fact it is quite ok. Too bad it does nothing to redeem your map, let alone pull it from the festering muck pile it is in.

Theme is another one of those things which are nice, but don't really impact how fun a map is.

Ok, now your just being stupid. Theme is one of the most important aspects of a good map. A map needs a sense of location for it to be interesting to play in.

CTF-Terra doesn't have much of a theme, but it's also been canonized as a clan laddermap.

Your map is a long way from being CTF-Terra. And yes, there is an obvious theme in Terra, something which cannot be said about your map.

Someone mentioned the 20 health vials in a row in one of the central tubes. I would have preferred to have had a keg there instead, but I decided to go with 20 health vials because I felt it would be the best way for players to distinguish between the two similarly situated tubes.

Thats like saying, "I'm making a sequel to Highlander, should I call it Highlander 2: The Quickening, or Highlander: What the Fu<k."


And no, this isn't flame. But I'm sure your feeling the Burn anyway.

WHIPperSNAPper
27th Aug 2003, 01:44 AM
All this proves is that good maps can be heavily critiqued. If someone is predetermined to smear a decent map as part of a flame war or as part of a visceral reaction to promotion (or to defensive responses to unfair negative feedback that resulted from the aforementioned visceral reaction to promotion) (as much as they might deny it), it's not hard to do. It's interesting that a map could inspire such passion; it isn't the map; it's a visceral reaction to its promotion.

No amount of negative commentary will trump my own first-hand judgment and experience. I am convinced that, objectively, it's a great map for online play. Of course, people who prefer more open maps won't like it, which is fine. Criticizing a suit for its not being a dress doesn't make it a bad suit. I'm pretty confident that the substantial portion of the UT community that enjoys fast-paced, high body count maps will like it in spite of the fact that the textures aren't perfect (though they sure do look good in the tubes) and that it lacks ambient sound and sourced lighting. You almost make it sound like there's something illegitimate about the tastes of people who prefer that style of game play and those types of maps.

Mister_Prophet
27th Aug 2003, 02:48 AM
You are a lost cause.

Hourences
27th Aug 2003, 02:54 AM
you still dont get it

the review was 100 procent fair, honest, and correct ! it was in no way ment to be a joke, or to break down a "good" map because we are jealous or whatever

the map is R E A L L Y, H O N E S T L Y bad
its not near avg, even we forget all this grpahic stuff, and just look at the gameplay,its still 8000 million miles from being avg

and if you like to work with statistics that much, not 30 procent of the maps get a score below 3, but around 75 procent of them does, so considering that number, your map is pretty normal,
be happy you made a normal map :)

there is a perfect form of gameplay, the form were the game was made for, its that form thats being judged, not your own made style or twist to the game
if we are going to keep such things in mind the whole point about reviewing is gone, because you wouldnt be able to say anything bad at all about the map becuase person #2745574 MIGHT like that specific style even tho you know its horrible
we judge it on perfection and quality, and unlike a lot of people think thats 75 procent objectivly, i dont give a flying **** if i like purple as a color or not, i simply know it will not work in 98 procent of the maps that excist, and if i would break down a map on the purple light that would be purely based on knowledge and judging and not my personal preference
same for all the other stuff, and your map is not quality or anywhere near it, objectivly saw, based on knowledge

and for in case you dont believe the game was made for real gameplay, then pls explain why the ut demo had maps like ctf coret, dm phobos, dm turbine etc, those maps werent graphically mind blowing, no they had some very nice gameplay, with quite a lot of thought behind
excatly that was the reason those maps were choosen to show people the gameplay in the game, that was how it ment to be
go ask cliffyb if you dont believe me

and lastly, pls DO explain, why if people like you, and people who make maps like ctf thorns, NEVER get hired at companies ? you people seem to know A LOT about gameplay and fun, yet no one wants to hire you people, thats just damn strange

Zlal
27th Aug 2003, 04:32 AM
My goal was to build a successor to CTF-CarPark. People laugh at CarPark, and I understand the reasons why

Obviously you don't understand these reasons. If your goal is to try and make a map that is laughed at better, then your end result will likely be laughed at too, for it's attempt to better a bad map.

but it has received more online playing time then a great many other maps.

So have the maps that came with the game. That is because of simplicity and the fact that 90% of UT players don't know you can d/l maps.
"Tubes" has recieved lots of online play because you have gone around many forums getting publicity. Nothing wrong with that.
However, the way that you are advertizing the map comes across as "force feed". I would try and better this, otherwise people will accuse you of having a ego the size of my ePenis.

I think Tubes Of Spam is better than CarPark in many areas--build quality, design, symmetry, texturing, fun factor, etc.

That is your opinion. Having not played CarPark, I cannot comment. however saying your own map is better than another map is not entirely credable now, when you think about it.

It seems to me that when you rate a map, the overwhelming factor should be how much fun it is to play online against real people, which would factor in things like item placement, path options, and the overall layout, having better than functional lighting, basic looks, and perhaps bot pathing.

Why? Why, Why Why?
The honest truth is that map do not get played online by lots of people. They get downloaded by people who look for maps. Hey, mapping sucks when you honestly think about it. You might think you are lucky that a few clan fags are playing you map, but you forgot about the other 99% of players who just connect to the internet and think "Hmmm.... can you play UT online?" and do so. Your map does not "own" - it hasn't been noticed by many people when you honestly think about it.

Fair enough, great maps have recieved less attention than yours. However, most of these great maps, by mappers such as DavidM, Hourences, Ulukai, Tonnberry etc. don't need puplicity. Why, you might ask.
Their maps get the attention that counts. That is, professional attention. This map will not get serious professional attention - this map is not excellant, not great. This means that the map should lie below a 7 or 6 at least, judging the current mapping scene and review averages around.

I think that should be worth about 70% of a review score.

Many would disagree with you. Some would agree. At the end of the day, that statement could be as bull**** as the review and comments that you complained about, or could be as credable as them.

A work of art that plays poorly online doesn't have too much value IMHO.

It has exactly the same value as :-
An average map.
A map that has good gameplay but bad looks.
A decent map will lots of flaws.
A map with no puplicity.

I rate Tubes Of Spam as an 8 on a strict 10% distribution in comparison to all other CTF maps which would include all the crappy ones no one ever hears about or sees and where the top 10% of the maps earn a score of 10, the next 10% a score of 9, etc. I'd give it a 7 on a Gaussian distribution (where the overwhelming majority falls in between scores of 3 and 7).

I will flame in this following paragraphs.

You had an idea. "I'll be clever so they think that I know more than them and that I am right!"
So, you cooked up some cool sounding bull****. I don't understand it much, and I don't think many others do - the point is that is reads like bull****.

Actaully, I read that a couple of times. You attempt to proove that you map is a 7 using distribution percentages.
However, you poove nothing. For all the attempted cleverness, it is still a score that you gave it youself. There is no proof. There is no evidence for a 7. Indeed, all you succeded in doing is typing a paragraph of utter bull**** that makes you look slightly foolish.
So, hey, Let's all be bull****ters!

Of course, the map has to be judged within the context of its genre and the game play that genre tends to have.

It was, as far as I can tell.

It's hard to take seriously someone's criticism that a tight, spammy map intended for 8 players is bad because it's full of spam with 12 players.

It may be elaborately decorated with nice shades of attempted thought reversal, but this is in fact still bull****.


I would hope that others would be fair and give Tubes Of Spam at least a 5 when considered amongst all the other CTF maps that exist.

No. You hope your map gets a good score. Come on, be honest.

Since I'm tooting my own horn for the purpose of making an argument to unlock the comments and user ratings feature, I'm sure it must be very tempting to tear into me and to berate it and offer up such "honest" ratings as 0 and -1

Oh, it is tempting. You see, you arn't unique. Every few months someone like you blows up his ego bubble just a little too far - so far, in fact, that they start blowing up the map's hype until some veteran puts them down.
What happens then is that it comes to a forum. Many people agree with the lower score rather than the mapper, and it boils, heating up until a great number of threads entail, many closed, many simply peatering out.
Every time it is the same. Every time it is remembered as a classic moment.

You see, it is quite fun reading what a someone with a big ego comes out with. All that **** about distributions and percentages above. The amount of effort, the amount of pain that they go through trying to defend their map from the hungry pack of wolves that is the majority.
And yet they often come back for more. More ****, more spam, more flames. Why? Dunno.
Do they secretely enjoy it? That would be funny.
Is it because they are so sad that they feel their map has been beaten up SO much. They don't try and better it - no, their baby that SOME people said was good has been hurt, and daddy has to defend it.

Gah, how repetitive it gets. Read this, learn it. I think there needs to be huge, bold and red messages at the top of the page warning people that having egos and trying to fend of a majority that says your map isn't as good as you say is effectively internet suicide.

but I hope that people will consider it objectively and without malice.

Meh, people do until the author trys the noble approach and end up flat on his face in ****.

I don't think it deserves to be stuck with a user rating of 2 and a nasty comment just because one person who looked at it doesn't appreciate it's genre and didn't try it online, especially when I know others who have played it online and enjoyed it.

Some people enjoy the type of maps the majority don't.
For example look at instagib. It's not an impressive game type, it's simple. A larger percentage don't like it than do.
The same goes for spammy**** maps.


When I said "architecture", I basically meant overall layout and design, not whether or not brushes with trimmed corners and support bracing for the walls were used.

"layout and design" is not "architecture" They are seperate things, at least to everyone else.

I know you're trying to tear down the map as a negative reaction to my self-promotion, Bot 40, but consider what is there.

No he isn't. Where is you evidence? It's like me saying "You like to hangglide with bananas and cabonated waste paper whilst laying backwards on a hilly cave creature" - there's no proof.

If anything, it further prooves that you cannot handle critisism. He gave an honest critique, and if you don't like that, don't bother starting a thread about the maps. Nalicity is a place where honesty is predominant.

The tubes have bends instead of just being straight; that must be worth something positive in an evaluation.

Bends in the tubes don't get you a 7. Just like maing a map out of glass doesn't. Just like making a moving train doesn't. A feature on its own counts of nothing - there is no backbone to support it.

It's symmetrical yet not overly simplistic and instead of just having passages intersect at 90 degree angles, paths often meet rooms at bent angles.

That is like saying "You can run forwards in UT" or "It is possible to jump across a platform". It's not really that impressive... well, I suppose it might be if you like boring tosh.

There are opportunities for hammer jumps and boot jumps as a means of escaping with the flag; it does have some Z-axis.

Some, though little. Look at phobos - that's what I call z-axis. Look at Dm-Seriphim - that's what I call some z-axis.

I'm sure the layout for ThornsV2, which also lacks Z-axis, gets boring very fast, too, yet that map has been canonized as a clan ladder map and players join servers for it, which is no small feat.

Cool, so 1% of UT players might play that map.

And if you want comparison to thorns in a newb ego style -
"ThornV2 Fu<KIng kicks your map's ass, because it has been played for ages online!"


I agree that there is some texture misalignment in the flag bases. I know that it's possible to see the bends on the sides of the tubes themselves

Therefor there isn't great texturing, is there?

I think they look great and that I did a nice job with the textures and texture choices in that area.

"Imagine a vast desert. Imagine you are standing in the middle, talking, yet nobody is around to nod there head and clap hands."

Leet comment. Bangout, present the man some sort of ghey fetish award or something.

I agree that the map doesn't have the world's greatest texture usage, but it is far from being horrible.

Good. Agreeing that something in the map isn't overally great is a good step.


If the texturing were compared with that of every other custom map that's ever been made, I'm sure it would be no worse than average and probably better.

No worse than average might be right. However, you are downgrading your map. That's taking it below a 6 by now, surely?


OK, but should that one detail be the entire basis for judging a map or even a significant basis?

Way to go! You contradicted yourself. What was it...
"70% of a map's score whould be how fun it plays online"

It pales in comparison to the importance of the online game play.

The stench of contradiction is a horrid thing - I recoomend washing out your ego a little.

I'm sure flag runners spend time thinking about the lighting sources instead of focussing on whether going to check on the shield belt is worth the risk of exposing one's self in the center of the map or whether the basement route might be safer.

You are right here... however I think most people who download maps actually do a fyby, looking at the visauls, before playing it with bots. That's the audience you are aiming fior at NC and at UP as well.

As for lack of ambient sounds--most maps don't include that

And that is why they get lower scores because of it. Score = 4... :/

and Tubes Of Spam has good custom music which is much more than I can say for many maps that don't have any music at all or that just recycle the standard music.

A lot of people turn music off anyway so they can hear their opponants. Music isn't really a important point.

Theme is another one of those things which are nice, but don't really impact how fun a map is.

Maybe if you are some kind of hardcore fag. I could say online playablity is one of those nice things thast doesn't really matter.

CTF-Terra doesn't have much of a theme, but it's also been canonized as a clan laddermap.

Terra has a theme - some kind of base in the mountains. Havn't played it for some time though.
Terra also has gameplay and visuals...
And is by Rich Akuma IIRC. He hasn't made a entirely bad map.

Someone mentioned the 20 health vials in a row in one of the central tubes. I would have preferred to have had a keg there instead, but I decided to go with 20 health vials because I felt it would be the best way for players to distinguish between the two similarly situated tubes.

Alternitivy you could have coloured them differently, rather than effect gameplay. That's the way you gameplay only types would think.


Yeah, I quoted proph to type all that. I'm a lazy guy.

And this isn't malicious. It's honesty. Can't handle the truth? Well, it's a big bad world full of bastards, friend.


And no, this isn't flame. But I'm sure your feeling the Burn anyway.

Zlal
27th Aug 2003, 04:52 AM
This needs adressing too, I think.

Request to open CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam for comment

I recently submitted a CTF map to Nali City and soon learned that the comment feature was locked. I know that the name might make evoke snickers, but it's really just an excellent map that falls into the fast-paced, high body count, tight map category alongside the likes of the popular Dreary, Gazpacho, Niven, Eternal Caves, and Burning.

Some of those maps are the ass maps that epic made. Oh, and enternal caves isn't meant to be played like that.

The construction is solid. The zoning is good, it's HOM free, and it includes zoned location ID tags.

The construction is solid, not simple. Otherwise true.

The bot pathing is very good, the use of textures is good, and the passages look great, many having their own unique texturing.

True, False, Flase. Unique texturing is only good if the texture are good. These, unsurprisingly, are not.

The lighting enhances the textures and adds some atmosphere, and the item placement is excellent and works to balance the numerous path options.

The Lighting is poor. Enhances the texture brightness, prehaps. Atmosphere? Hah! Maybe the stuff you breath?

The map has a semi-intricate, symmetrical design and also features beautiful custom music. I have played it online against others several times and it is fun. People don't flee the server when it comes up in the rotation.

So? Your point is? People who like the map, yes. The thing is, that's only a select few from what I can see.

I hope that Nali City will please reconsider its decision and open the comments and user rating features.

Why? Higher chance of it getting a better score, why I garentee will not happen much.

If not, then in fairness could we please delete all comments and user ratings?

Btw, your Bold/Colour tags are horrible. You don't need to use 15 bolds for a paragraph that you want all bold. Same for colour - you don't need a end tag if there will be colour all the way. And fianlly, why do you need to use a white colour tag after a colour close tag? There's hardly a difference.

It isn't fair for one person, the first user to comment, to have a monopoly on user feedback--it gives people a distorted view because they only see one opinion. If the commentary is locked, then the map's fans can't rate it and comment. I invite people in the community to judge for themselves whether or not it should be open for comment.

Don't been shocked if the score doesn't change :)

Here is a download link:

http://www.beyondunreal.com/dl.php/nalicity/utctf/ctf-dagnys-tubes-of-spam.zip

I recommend setting up a practice game with 9 bots (5-on-5) set to the Adept skill level and 125% speed (to simulate real human opponents).

If you turn up the speed, won't YOU get faster too?

You can also play the map online at this server: 166.70.124.87 or UTCTF2.thegamebox.net

----------------------------------

Some comments from people who have played it online (posted in other forums):

Presuming these are real people, this is a handful of people. There are already many NC'ers that disaggree.

Lord Demios: It was quite a fun level Dagny. It was very fast and very action packed. This map really doesn't have the spammy feel in the critical areas. With four ways into the base, you can always take a different route to the flag. The game almost felt as fast paced as assault.

Fast paced as assult? Play assult properly, with tactics -_-
'
The different routes are good. No spammy feel? Sounds like this guy wouldn't know spam if it came out of his ass.

Seven of 69: Even if you don't like spammy maps, this one is pretty to look at and features texture usage that I've never seen before. Tho inspired by Crap Park, ToS has much more attention to detail and all the tubes are color coded, so you won't get lost. Plus all your fav weapons and powerups are available. Dagny, I think that the premier of ToS was great! It plays surprisingly well and is far better than Crap Park. Plus it looks good and the color-coded tubes mean that you at least know your approximate relation to which base you're in. Also, once you realize that each tube has a different texture, it's easy to figure out where you are.

Colour coded tubes are good.
All your favourate weapons and powerups should not be in this spamfest. There isn't a redeemer is there? :O If so, then you are a cliff climber waiting to fall of to his death of a mapper and I'll stop being "polite"

Afroman: twisted map dagny! by looking at the pics, looks like there is enough maunevering room to get around some of the flak.

Many if your opponant is a really bad aim. You know, I'm surprised he wasn't using aimbots. Also, seems like this gy didn't actually play the map anyway.

ToWnPrEp: Ooooooo I like! It's very kewl looking, and with a small groups, this will be a kick @$$ map.

Eye exam recomended.

[OSX]Spectre: [color=white][i]Good job dags..I was pretty impressed. I thought the map was much better than carpark mostly because it felt larger, and well.. less spammy. It still i

Bot_40
27th Aug 2003, 08:18 AM
*sigh*

Bot_40
27th Aug 2003, 08:29 AM
No amount of negative commentary will trump my own first-hand judgment and experience. I am convinced that, objectively, it's a great map for online play.

hmm, whatever. Just want to make you aware that you are infact arguing with people with a combined mapping experience of over 10-15 years.
Me = 3 years
Hourences = 3-4 years
Mr Prophet = prolly 3+ years, not sure
and so on...

Zlal
27th Aug 2003, 09:54 AM
I liked this paragraph for it's definitive arogance.

All this proves is that good maps can be heavily critiqued.
How arrogant of you. Never heard of modesty?
You simply do not walk into a club and shout "I have a lovely wang" because you get bitchslapped.
The same applies here.
It's opinion, yes. Like *******s everyone has them. The problems lies in that the aurthor/owner/producer should know that his own opinion should be best kept to himself. Of coarse you like you wang, or map in this case. It's yours.
However, it's others opinions that count.


If someone is predetermined to smear a decent map as part of a flame war or as part of a visceral reaction to promotion (or to defensive responses to unfair negative feedback that resulted from the aforementioned visceral reaction to promotion) (as much as they might deny it), it's not hard to do.

No, it's not hard to do. The thing, no one tries to. Honest. It's you - SHOCK HORROR! - that is causing this fuss. We give you critique, but you throw it back in out faces. People who don't like it arn't allowed to influence you, are they? What if they are right? Sometimes other are right, you know.

Prehaps you like the sound of praise. However, if you don't heed negitive comments or advice, simply passing it off for flaming (And don't you dare deny that) you won't get far in pleasing others.

It's interesting that a map could inspire such passion; it isn't the map; it's a visceral reaction to its promotion.

It's both, actually. Yes, we ARE saying your map is bad. Yes, we ARE saying that you over-hyped the map.

However, it's not passion. People are sad, but not quite that sad. No. This is merely amusing, like watching a funny film or a good programme.
Think "bring out the pop corn"

No amount of negative commentary will trump my own first-hand judgment and experience.

Hold it. You are saying that you know better than everyone? And that because you like it, it doesn't matter.
If that is your attitude, then don't try and force the map down our throats and expect praise from everyone.
Think about this like you would work.
You get a rreally cool, fun job taking photos of models, say. You take a few shots, and a couple of people say they are pretty good. You feel happy.

You then look around for a place to sell your work, and find an office for a large art magazine company. Handing some of your photos out, you await their response with glee.

However, these guys, who have been working in the trade longer than you, tell you that they arn't very good - the angle doesn't show the models in a good light, and that the angles arn't very exciting.

You tell them that people have said that they are really good, but the people say that you could ask around at any good, decent company and they would say the same as them.

You then turn around and say that their advice and critique is out of jealousy and that their opinion don't count. However, deep down you know they are right - you just don't want to knock your pride.

This is the same as what is happening right now, I'd guess.
The thing is, it's up to you to take it from here, and proove to me that ego's an be broken down and reshaped to something better for everyone.


I am convinced that, objectively, it's a great map for online play.

Again, it's not you that you have to impress - it's others.

Of course, people who prefer more open maps won't like it, which is fine. Criticizing a suit for its not being a dress doesn't make it a bad suit.

That doesn't mean that the map is good. A good critique would ignore that, and focus on what the map was meant to achieve, and the ones I have read achive that.

I'm pretty confident that the substantial portion of the UT community that enjoys fast-paced, high body count maps will like it in spite of the fact that the textures aren't perfect (though they sure do look good in the tubes) and that it lacks ambient sound and sourced lighting.

Substantial portion? Hah! How wrong is that. If that were true, then there would be loads of tiny maps with no detail and no looks released in games - something I've not ever seen (Well, you could argue that UT2003 has sucky maps, but there are loads of large maps in it)

Also, the textures arn't the only problem. The whole map isn't perfect - yes, even the gameplay isn't perfect.
Also, the tubes DO NOT LOOK GOOD, OK? THEY LOOK LIKE SOMEONE JUST SLAPPED A COUPLE OF TEXTURE ON THEM RANDOMLY. IS THIS GOOD, NO FFS.

You almost make it sound like there's something illegitimate about the tastes of people who prefer that style of game play and those types of maps.

Strictly speaking, there is. If you look at the ideals of gaming, it requires skills, intelligence and reaction.

Spamfest maps don't have skill - and don't argue it does, because shooting constantly is not a skill - they don't need intelligence (Simple maps with no detail or obstacles. Or much z-axis, for that matter)
They might, MIGHT, have need reaction. It depends on the map and the game.

Actaully do argue about that. I really want to force myself to come up with a undoubtable answer to that question.

WHIPperSNAPper
27th Aug 2003, 10:31 AM
It's certainly been an interesting thread. I had no idea there was such a large rift in the UT community between people who spend most of their time mapping and less playing and those who spend most playing and less mapping. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the discussion has evoked such strong emotions. I could continue and respond to Shadowlurker's posts line-by-line, but I wouldn't have anything that's new in principal to say.

I have participated in hundreds of serious, heated debates involving subjects ranging from the existence of God to abortion to economics and I can authoritatively say that after extended conversation you reach a point where it becomes clear that the sides have huge fundamental value differences that are essentially irreconcilable. The best that can be done is that each side might better understand the other side's reasoning while still staunchly disagreeing. I think we've accomplished that.

[...And if you are breaking your arm patting yourself on the back for your ability to criticize the good or the average for not being the perfect and thinking that you've made me cry or made me sad or shaken the intellectual foundations and confidence of my world view or UT-view (as many of you have gleefully bragged), or convinced me that I am wrong and you are right, or convinced me that Tubes Of Spam is worthless and that my ideas for maps are horrific, re-examine your own big ego and get a sling because you have not. I've been involved with hundreds of more contentious debates, both on the Internet and live and in-person, on more philosophical subjects with far better debaters and far more cynical posters; this one hasn't phased me a bit.]

Unsurprisingly, none of the extensive arguments have told me anything I hadn't already thought of on my own prior to my first post (Prior to this thread I was fully aware I hadn't included any ambient sounds or light sources and that the flag base texturing wasn't amazing), nor has it shaken my own evaluation of the map nor my judgment nor how I value and evaluate maps. I expect that everyone else who has participated in the thread feels the same.

I'll probably end it at that and leave you to backslap each other with lots of "'atta boys" and pick these last few comments apart or churn over previous comments.

Bot_40
27th Aug 2003, 10:54 AM
You really don't have to bother trying to convince us that we didn't persuade you in any way. Just making another post without making an attempt to recognise the problems the map has proves that just fine.
I dunno if you even bothered to look at the pics I posted. I guess some people are just born blind anyways :hmm:

Zlal
27th Aug 2003, 11:14 AM
Heh, shall me and you stop typing like we are posh gits and just be honest.

(Or do you actually speak like that? hmmm...?)

Look, you arn't the first to go through the whole "NC are giving me critique" process. Every time the "victem" decides he cannot handle the amount of people, or the strength of arguement, and gives a post similiar to yours.

All it prooves is that you havn't taken in anything. I do admittedly find this amusing. However, I have good critique buried in the nonsense and brutal honesty.

It seems to me that you still think we are joking, and that your own opinion counts more than others. That kind of thought get's you no where in RL, or so I've been told before. It's called being closeminded.

Now, look through it all again. Everyone has tried to help, and yet that help is repetedly thrown back.

If you have really picked up nothing, then you are likely never going to make many friends on these forums. Prehaps that isn't your goal.



About this "rift". There is a "mapping" community. However, there is not a "Play more than map" community. There is a selection of people, like yourself, that play small, spammy maps.
There are also the majority who have never d/l a map before and might not be interested in playing UT all that much. And there are neutrals too.

Hourences
27th Aug 2003, 12:18 PM
lets try a short reply since now you arent answering nor reading anything it seems, 2 questions, a and b, pls just give them a short reply

A. you looked at bots screens ? pls tell us if they look better or not
B. pls explain how it can be that people like you who understeand the gameplay EXTREMELY well never get hired, and why us people who it seems to have no idea at all what makes a good map do get hired and make YOUR games of tomorow
pls tell me if that sounds logic to you or not

2 simple basic questions

Frieza
27th Aug 2003, 12:34 PM
[...And if you are breaking your arm patting yourself on the back for your ability to criticize the good or the average for not being the perfect and thinking that you've made me cry or made me sad or shaken the intellectual foundations and confidence of my world view or UT-view (as many of you have gleefully bragged), or convinced me that I am wrong and you are right, or convinced me that Tubes Of Spam is worthless and that my ideas for maps are horrific, re-examine your own big ego and get a sling because you have not. I've been involved with hundreds of more contentious debates, both on the Internet and live and in-person, on more philosophical subjects with far better debaters and far more cynical posters; this one hasn't phased me a bit.]

We aren't aiming to make you cry or sadden you at all, we're just giving you an honest view of this map, and if youre convinced that your map is great just because a couple of people said it was great (Who obviously dont map themselves) look again. We dont have big egos, the only one here having a big ego is you, for thinking your map is great and does not deserve any score under a 7 on your Gaussian scale whatever, or a 5 comparing to all CTF maps out there. If you dont want to listen to reason, fine, stay in your dreamworld, this great CTF-DagnysTubesofSpam might even get you an job at Epics! Just like the great mappers in this community have acquired. But note: They actually spent time learning the editor. A map isnt just about gameplay (which is also not very good), its about the whole! A great map is a combination of various factors, Only if everything (Architecture, Texturing, Lighting, Gameplay, Flow, Item Placement, Botpathing) is great, it deserves a great score, and sadly your map doesnt convince in any of these points. Its only logical it receives a 2.

Unsurprisingly, none of the extensive arguments have told me anything I hadn't already thought of on my own prior to my first post (Prior to this thread I was fully aware I hadn't included any ambient sounds or light sources and that the flag base texturing wasn't amazing), nor has it shaken my own evaluation of the map nor my judgment nor how I value and evaluate maps. I expect that everyone else who has participated in the thread feels the same.

So now you even admit yourself that you have not included ambient sounds (I even think you dont know how, but if Im wrong correct me) or light sources, THEN why are you still saying your map has great atmosphere?? I dont get it for one. Atmosphere = Ambient Sounds = Atmospheric Lighting

darth_weasel
27th Aug 2003, 02:32 PM
All this proves is that good maps can be heavily critiqued.

i was about to point out that you still arent listening and your map is far from "good", but then this is true:

You are a lost cause.


i would also like to hear your response to the comparisons in bot40's screens

:)

WHIPperSNAPper
27th Aug 2003, 04:06 PM
Regarding recent requests to continue the discussion, I'm probably going to end my participation in it since I've basically said all I have to say in principle, and I don't think further discussion would be insightful. I could address Hourence's two questions and Bot 40's screenshot comparisons, and we could keep debating this for another 20 posts, and we could go back and forth making snide comments and implying or stating that the other side is ignorant and foolhardy, but each side's basic response would be the same in principle.

I suspect that a good part of the disagreement and possible initial misunderstanding is that the two sides are "talking around each other", having a background in different UT cultures and attaching different contexts to the same words and concepts, neither side really addressing or understanding the other's meaning in a hostile, competitive atmosphere (the competition to say or demonstrate "I'm right, you're wrong, now admit how infantile and silly you are and how wise I am"). I could elaborate further on what I believe is the source of the disagreement and offense, and we could discuss it, and maybe at the end we'd reach some agreement and drink beers together, but for the present I'm satisfied to conclude that we have different UT world views and irreconcilable differences in our approach to UT value judgement.

Regarding the claim that "I'm not listening", that comes up all the time in debates and arguments (though not often leveled at or by me). It's a cheap tactic that's used to suggest that the other side is non-objective or dogmatic; it's almost a smear tactic. That isn't necessarily true. More often than not, and I'm certain in this case, the other side is probably listening and understanding what you're saying, it just honestly disagrees with you.

Hourences
27th Aug 2003, 04:53 PM
-you just continued it by replying anyway
-that being said why couldnt you answer the 2 questions, regarding the pic and why you people never get hired

Zlal
27th Aug 2003, 04:53 PM
-_-'
Sounds like you should stop reading the manual of how to argue. You would get punched for saying that in Real Life, you know.

The thing is, with that "tone" i cannot drop this. You are STILL failing to see the point.

Now, I want this end. I want you to answer those questions. Why?

Because so far it doesn't seem like you are heeding your own textbook advice, and that you deem yourself either higher or at least to have "won" this arguement.


I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm not trying to be ignorant. However you are too "goodly", too "I-Know-All" for my - and other's I guess - liking.

I do think furhter discussion would be helpful. Because the sooner we "bridge" this "gap" the better.

I hope you agree with me too - let's start listening, and not turning a blind eye to mour problems.

Zarkazm
27th Aug 2003, 05:05 PM
you should study classic maps like DM-Scimitar to pick up tricks for your next map :)

*cough* :)

My goal was to build a successor to CTF-CarPark. People laugh at CarPark, and I understand the reasons why

No you don't, otherwise you would not have made a successor map.

HAHAHA!

MassChAoS
27th Aug 2003, 06:44 PM
The map has been closed and further discussion, if any, should be continued here.

difool2
27th Aug 2003, 08:21 PM
The "rating" paradigm here would seem to be skewed heavily left, towards
the low ratings). I have no idea why that is (perhaps someone can
explain it to me). My own personal rating system is a strictly linear one,
with 5 representing average (no horrendous errors which render the map
basically unplayable, or maps which are just a rectangle with a few
objects here and there); I also put most of my weight on gameplay, and
play strictly with bots (so working bots is a plus for me). Perhaps there
are 1000 better maps-but there's 2000 worse ones (at least).

In other words, a "two" would mean that a mapper made some awful
mistakes with the bots, the architecture (elevators which don't work for
ex.), has large areas which see little gameplay, is much too linear, etc.
There are zillions of maps on this site which are that bad (or worse),
including the ones which don't work at all (the only situation where a
"zero" is warranted, IMHO).

Dagny's map has none of these _fatal_ flaws. It's biggest fault (spammy)
would appear in some people's eyes to invalidate everything else (again
I am biased in favor of gameplay and don't care much about visuals for
visuals' sake, and here's a free clue-NOBODY is unbiased!). Plus that
one goes away if you use non-spammy weapons (like Instagib or Tac
Ops weapons, WORM/Stuffswapper to switch things in and out), and the
multiple paths make that less of a problem if you aren't running too many
players. Otherwise the various paths make things exciting, as you don't
know what's around the next corner and you are constantly making
decisions as to which way to go next (do you go up the middle and try
for the belt or 'deemer-which BTW I usually replace with something else),
or stick to the side path (which I agree has too many vials)? I played
with some AK-47 mods this morning and had a blast with the bots.

The "Why aren't you hired by one of the major gaming companies" thing
is sort of a lame dig: the pleasure of sandlot over-35 baseball players
isn't invalidated because none of them are being scouted by the majors.
Plus the companies usually are overly impressed by the chrome as
opposed to the gameplay, so that doesn't impress me all that much (not
that stuff like Noork's Elbow isn't terrific-looking: but I haven't played
that map in months...).

All in all I gave it a "6" before the comments were closed: that is as fair
a rating as I could give it; perhaps a little generous if anything. It ain't
Chicoverde territory certainly, but nor is it the complete dogcrap that
some here make it out to be. >shrug<

John DiFool

WHIPperSNAPper
27th Aug 2003, 08:37 PM
Thank you for coming to the forums and for interjecting some reason into the discourse, DiFool.

I mean no disrespect to Nali City and it's admins' decision, and I appreciate and respect the great free service that they provide and the uncompensated labor that goes into it, but I think it's too bad that the comments and user ratings were closed again because now we won't get to see all of those 5, 6, and 7 ratings that I predict would come in after the initial controversy dies down.

Mister_Prophet
27th Aug 2003, 08:53 PM
There is no controversy.

Your map scores low visually because its appearance is on par with the lower ring level of mappage that we store on the site.

Your build score scores low because its design and composition are on par with the lower ring level of mappage we store on the site.

Your gameplay scores low for glaring unoriginality and simplicity as well as below average setup and execution.

That is the bottom line.

Thank you for coming to the forums and for interjecting some reason into the discourse, DiFool.

I suppose "reason" is subject to opinion it seems.

I think it's too bad that the comments and user ratings were closed again

I don't, in another day or two your map will be thrown upon the large heap of maps that nobody cares about anymore.

because now we won't get to see all of those 5, 6, and 7 ratings that I predict would come in after the initial controversy dies down.

You predict huh, I'm sure your buddies from GameBox.com are anxious to come and post their support.

Look, I don't care that your map sucks, it just is disappointing to see yet another learning mapper fade away because of an inflated ego.

Hourences
27th Aug 2003, 09:08 PM
reply to difool

we cant help it either there is so much crap released, so yes many scores below 5
our quality level is high indeed, that a bad thing ? thats the whole point about reviewing

nalicity has a 9 as maximum score, 5 isnt the middle anymore

a map really needs bot support, but you can see all gameplay with just bots, bots dont play the game like humans, you never get the true strategic gameplay like real humans would give, simply said, yu can never see true gameplay when only playing with bots
a bot doesnt react to a sound when you grab a health vial, it wont get warned by it, etc

architecture is more then just an elevator that doesnt work
architecture is the style, flow, and shapes and execution of the building/area, this map does not have that

now you said yourself that there are a zillion bad maps, ofcourse you see a zillion scores below 5 then :)

yes could be better in insta, but you cant judge a map with saying it was made for insta ! no, the real game is with the normal weapons, and its made for that, if it doesnt work well with it, then it sux

yes map has 4 exits of the flagroom, thats good, but it are still 4 tiny sh1t tubes, your not gonna raise a score with such stuff

they look to gameplay and graphics, they want a good combination,
those people get hired because they know what they are doing, unlike mappers who make stuff like this
the only people who say that you dont need graphics seem to be people who have barely any experience with making games themself, and know absolutely nothing about the technical side, and related things
yet they really think they are damn right, what does this say about those people ? who do you think knows most, has most experience, and thus is most likely to have it correct ? who makes your games ? who creates your gameplay ?
stop being ignorant

you mention chicoverde, so you agree he knows his stuff, then pls go ask what he thinks about this map, and he will tell you that it sux

and to get back to the point of reviewing, if you going to use such arguments like, "but it does play well with mutator XXX or mod XXX", or "it was ment to be played for this type of player!" then you mess up the point about reviewing
your saying yourself that a simple cube with stuff in, would suck, and would get a low score
dony you get that there are also people, who argumentate on the exact same way as you did, but then on defending cube maps, because they find those type of maps fun
there is ALWAYS someone who finds SOMETHING cool, if you listen to all these people you would result in having to rate every map a 7 or 8 at least
that sux, thats not reviewing, why the hell are we still reviewing then if everything would get a 7-8 per defintion ? because those people seem to think they are right too, just as much as you
thats why there has to be a level of quality, perfection, and the way its ment to be, and not persons interprentation of the game #54785414854
this is about THE UT, not about your ut



you wouldnt have got any 5 6 7s, trust me, ive been here long enough to know how most people are going to score a map

WHIPperSNAPper
27th Aug 2003, 09:56 PM
I would like to post a short, somewhat snide comment about the decision to close the map to user comments and to delete all existing comments, but I get the sense that I have antagonized or at least annoyed some of Nali City's principals and my experience leads me to sense that I may be skating on thin ice and I sincerely value Nali City's services and forums. Am I in danger of being banned if I make any further comments on this subject? If so I'll just put a sock in it.

Mister_Prophet
27th Aug 2003, 10:03 PM
No you wont be banned, and you aren't skating on thin ice as far as banning goes. Snide away.

MassChAoS
27th Aug 2003, 10:11 PM
As far as banning on the forums, thats up to the forum admins, but I doubt they would at this point. As far as banning on NaliCity itself, no, you haven't caused much trouble yet.

WHIPperSNAPper
27th Aug 2003, 10:19 PM
Thank you for the reassurance. Here is the comment I was concerned about:

<Sigh>. Now we just have Mr. Prophet's review. I wonder, was the
decision to lock the user comments and to remove all existing user
feedback based on a desire to avoid entertaining controversy and to
keep it from clogging up hard drives or was there a fear that the map
might start garnerning favorable comments and ratings, much to the
chagrin of certain people? I'm sure it would have been interesting to
all involved to able to read future comments and ratings and to see
what others unconnected with the initial controversy thought. Now
we'll never know.

SkaarjMaster
27th Aug 2003, 10:30 PM
Well, this is an interesting thread that someone at Insite has pointed out to me. Dagny, if I were you, I would seriously consider some of the suggestions of the mappers here. Some may be a little arrogant and their map review scale may not be to everyone's liking, but there can be no denying the fact that these guys know how to map. The tutorials at various sites would help you out as well. I agree with a lot of the faults of your map mentioned so far, except for the one about texture choice (that's usually a personal choice left up to the mapper that I usually don't comment on unless it looks extremely bad).

There might be enough gameplay in your map to attract many online players, but it gets boring very quick (quicker than ThornsV2). Insite did not review it for this very reason; Insite only reviews 3.5 or higher maps anyway. Using Insite's scale I would give this one a 3, NC's scale probably a 2-2.5. It's not total crap, but does need a lot of help. I have experience playing a lot of maps for UT and UT2003 (offline and online) and can tell you that this one will not stay on my hard drive. The UT maps are fastly approaching 1,000 on my hard drive and for this one not to make this cut should tell you something.

Also, just because a map gets a lot of online play does not mean it is necessarily good! This has been shown time and time again. I hope this convinces you to pay more attention to details in future maps. I look forward to your next effort.

Lord_Demios
27th Aug 2003, 11:27 PM
I just want to reply to the gent quoting my Assault comment. I didn't say that the map ment a short game. I said it was fast paced. Assault is a fast game, you get to the point of conflict as fast as you can to keep people at bay. You defend the weak points and the ones that are open due to hammer jumping.

As for not knowing a spammy map, I guess your right, my little server has only hosted 1,174,100 games of UT in the past 2+ years.
(check the numbers if you want, http://www.thegamebox.net/stats/ut)

Sure, is Dagny's map up to your levels? No, I don't think anyone is saying that. Would it have been cool if one of you had taken him and shown him how to make the map better?

We all have to start somewhere, being a jerk about it doesn't help. Just look at the SPEWS guys.

Anyway, not trying to start a holy war. Just wanting to defend a quote with my name, and a friend who is learning.

LD
Owner and Admin of TheGameBox.Net/Org Servers.

thebubba
27th Aug 2003, 11:53 PM
Dagny, first let me compliment you on your writing skills and obvious passion for the written language. It always gives me pleasure to read comments from the UT community that are not ridden with miss-spellings and poor grammar. I have the utmost respect for those with the creative talent and discipline required to bring to us, the UT "believers", the myriad of new and undiscovered maps that crop up daily on Nali City and other Unreal Tournament related sites with the ability to present them through intelligent writing (the forum is a fine example of this type of communication as compared to the often incomprehensible user review comments on Nali City).
Now on to the map. Dagny, do you work in public relations? If not, you should. The way you have hyped your own map is applaudible. I work in advertising. I know. However, the map pretty much blows. I mean...it's okay...but after reading the preamble, the game play is a downer and the look is, well, blah! And don't tell me about server playing vs. playing with the bots. I play regularly on our local crew's WOPRNYC server and host my own CTF games on the Bubba's Bad Apple. We appreciate fast maps for small groups (6 to 10), very often boxy, like Thorns ][, D-Day, Romra, and our own CTF-ForTheBelievers. The difference is that these maps offer a certain fun factor lacking in "Tubes".
Would that your writing skills matched your mapping skills. It's time to stop zealously defending your creation and build something better. The energy spent on wordsmithing could have taken you that much closer to a fine new map. Enough with the defense, already. Learn from criticism and show them your stuff.
By the way, I don't see how El Chicoverde fits anywhere in this particular discussion. Sheesh!!

Aggressor
28th Aug 2003, 04:17 AM
OMG, this thread is hilarious :))))

Thebubba just stole words I wanted to say - Dagny would get an excellent job at PR agencies, no, he would be the perfect replacement for Ari Fleischer. There is only one guy I know personaly (and is not involved in politics) that's able to pretend and overturn words as much as Dagny does (but even he doesn't have the will to drag topics this far). But, I know great many mappers, that build maps way better that this tube thingy.

Let me accompany the reviewers in saying that this map sux both visually and in terms of gameplay; from Dagny's comments it is obvious, that either he doesen't know almost anything besides subtracting a cube, either he is too puffed-up to admit that his current map just isn't the work of art. Everyone of us started to map with relatively simple concepts. Some mappers release their early work and some don't, which creates an illusion that some mappers made a breakthrough from nothing. Some people then incorrectly conclude that great talents *always* made great maps. And some n00bs take this way too seriously...

The ever present dilemma between "intelligent" and "fun" gameplay brings us to the inevitable conclusion that part of the community (sadly it seems it's smallers one) nurtures standards that are beyond what typical western kiddy whats to get from the game. Thus we have such instances as C&C Generals, which is pure c4rp, but gets played more than almost any other strategy.

Zarkazm
28th Aug 2003, 04:21 AM
I could address Hourence's two questions and Bot 40's screenshot comparisons, and we could keep debating this for another 20 posts
No you could not, that's why you kept arguing but evaded those.


The "rating" paradigm here would seem to be skewed heavily left, towards the low ratings). I have no idea why that is (perhaps someone can explain it to me). My own personal rating system is a strictly linear one,
My personal rating system is heavily skewed towards the middle, and I still don't think DagnyTaggart's map would get a 3 from me if I actually bothered to play it. But I saw the screenshots, the layout and Proph's review, and they all tell me "Play DM-Helleth instead" :rolleyes:
As for Proph's review, I mean that indirectly. I don't want to imply Proph would recommend Helleth. It's just what I make of his review.


The "Why aren't you hired by one of the major gaming companies" thing is sort of a lame dig: the pleasure of sandlot over-35 baseball players isn't invalidated because none of them are being scouted by the majors.
Their pleasure isn't. Their claim to greatness however, which - in difference to DagnyTaggart - they do not make, is.
Besides, this is the sandlot. There are amateur competitions too, and there are losers there too. And if one of them starts behaving like DagnyTaggart, he'll be put into his place as well. In fact, he'd probably be treated alot less nice than here, because we are used to dealing with 12 year olds with an attitude and tend to cut them some slack.


Plus the companies usually are overly impressed by the chrome as opposed to the gameplay,
So are the people who buy the games. That is why games that look like DagnyTaggart's map don't sell. Believe me, I have seen some. They looked like crap, they were offered for 5$, and they still didn't sell.



John DiFool
I am somewhat suspicious of people who sign their posts. I don't do it, for reasons I believe to be rather obvious.
If I cared who you are, I could find your nickname on the left and click on "profile" for further info.

difool2
28th Aug 2003, 08:57 AM
[Signing posts is an old habit of mine from Usenet :rolleyes: ]

I never suggested that Dagny's map was in danger of supplanting the
classics from the upper echelon; as with a lot of debates the discussion
gets polarized and simplified into "sucks!" vs. "rawks!". Actually upon
further play I have found myself getting a wee bit weary of the map
(and yes in the genre of multiple pathed CTF maps, there are better
ones). I just think some people here are being a wee bit unfair to
D., 'tis all, and the flamage tone in some of the posts doesn't help
matters. Perhaps gameplay would improve a bit if the scale of the
map was doubled? I see very little constructive criticism here (and
comparing it in screenshots to medieval-themed maps is pointless, as
T.O.S. is ostensibly a "futuristic" one, whatever that means).

Rating scales, like everything else, are subjective to start with. My
feeling is that, giving him a "2" means that there is very little play for
the maps which are demonstratably worse (unless you believe in
lumping all the truly suckage works into "1", with no further distinctions
needed). It gives the false impression (absent spending time reading
the actual review and/or comments) that it is broken in some
fundamental way, when in actuality it does work (barely perhaps, but
it does). Hence 4-6 is reasonable (and I will note that two commenters
gave it a 10 and a 9 before it was closed, so such a map DOES appeal
to some players). 2 IMHO is not, but YMMV as I implied.

My biggest peeve about the current gaming paradigm is that we are
drowning in chrome, but novel gameplay is becoming increasingly harder
to find (I will note that this isn't a defense of Dagny's work).
Gaming companies are in the position of recycling old tired themes, in
whatever genre you want to name: virtually nobody is pushing the
envelope in that direction. Hence you might make a map which will make
the gaming CEOs cream their pants, but it might be empty of gameplay,
but they won't likely notice that! UT2003 is a perfect example of
incremental game design (and many of the criticisms I have seen of
that game implicitly damn it for that reason, even if they aren't aware
that they are :D ).

Anyway, it's just one map, one which I'm not attached to, so I'll shut up
now. I'm just amused at some of the attitudes of the regulars around
here.

Bot_40
28th Aug 2003, 09:52 AM
OK, you are sitll convinced this map is worth 4-6?
Given the new rating system, 4.5 is average. Examples of average maps given todays standards of UT maps are maps like DM-Pressure, DM-Conveyor, CTF-Command etc. etc. Just about all the maps that ship with the game can be classed as "Average" and could be given a rating of 4-5.
Now compare those maps to tubes of spam. Open your eyes and you'll see that in terms of lighting, texturing, layout, gameplay, theme, atmosphere etc. in just about every single catagory you can name, tubes of spam is completly owned by these stock epic maps. There's no way on earth it can be anywhere near the average rating of 4.5
Even DM-Pyramid would prolly get a 2.5 or a 3/10, and even that map which is THE worst map that comes with the game owns tubes of spam in terms of visuals. Gameplay wise the maps are about on par meaning I would not be likey to be able play either map for more than 10 seconds without serious risk of suicidal thoughts.

Just stop saying how the map has no serious flaws for a second, stop trying to point out that it has location IDs and zones which take a total of 20 seconds to add to the map and compare it to the stock maps that come with the game. Then just see that the stock maps are average and deserve a score between 3-6.

GIdenJoe
28th Aug 2003, 10:15 AM
Let me introduce myself.

I'm GIdenJoe from Belgium and I play fps games since Duke3d.

I'm quite the clanfag as sometimes mentioned on this site so I also spend a great deal evaluating gameplay. And I also give a little more value to gameplay than gfx.

I've played UT instagib for two years and some nw in between and when 2k3 came out I started that, so yes I know quite alot what maps can be fun and what maps cannot.

I can say that the "genre" you're trying to promote here is like fun for 5 minutes tops. Since there is no room for moving, no cover and no way to quickly get onto another road, it really sucks.

In andaction you have no tactics but room to move, in your map you don't have tactics and you don't have room to move, so it's actually worse than that map.

My fave maps in ut1 were, coret, lavaG, codex and they all have a bit of looks don't they? :p

Zlal
28th Aug 2003, 10:47 AM
I just want to reply to the gent quoting my Assault comment. I didn't say that the map ment a short game. I said it was fast paced. Assault is a fast game, you get to the point of conflict as fast as you can to keep people at bay. You defend the weak points and the ones that are open due to hammer jumping.

As for not knowing a spammy map, I guess your right, my little server has only hosted 1,174,100 games of UT in the past 2+ years.
(check the numbers if you want, http://www.thegamebox.net/stats/ut)

Sure, is Dagny's map up to your levels? No, I don't think anyone is saying that. Would it have been cool if one of you had taken him and shown him how to make the map better?

We all have to start somewhere, being a jerk about it doesn't help. Just look at the SPEWS guys.

Anyway, not trying to start a holy war. Just wanting to defend a quote with my name, and a friend who is learning.

LD
Owner and Admin of TheGameBox.Net/Org Servers.

This is a spammy map - The name of the map is Tubes_Of_Spam. The "tubes" are cramped, and no matter what type of weapon you may be using, a cramped hallway always allows for some level of spamming to go ahead.

You may have two year plus of server administration experience, but then again you are talking to mappers with equal experience. And dispite what some people may want you to think, a lot of mappers are good players and in clans. Good mappers, especially ones like Hourences who can get contract jobs in the industry, tend to know these kind of things.

You want me to go in depth and explain how to make this better? Give me an hour and I'll type it all out.
The fact is I know Dagny and his type. I could spend all that time and your friend who you say is "learning" will throw it back or even worse ignore out help. it happens all the time, and nothing ever changes.
Others have offered help already and dagny has simply dismissed it for people saying it is bad in spite. This is a sign of too big of an ego with no backup.

However, if Dagny is reading, hopefully he will realize that there IS help there, and if he asks, I would gladly offer advice.

My point (if mixed with a little flame earlier) is that you ego is holding you back and if you don't let it go, you will tumble down the melodramatic hill of forgotten mappers and laughed at fools, and believe me - the trip down is ugly.

Zlal
28th Aug 2003, 10:53 AM
The fact of the matter is this map would need a lot of work to please people other than thorns/andaction fans. The main percentage of people who play UT would agree that the map needs work.
That is what counts.

Balton
28th Aug 2003, 11:13 AM
Anyway, it's just one map, one which I'm not attached to, so I'll shut up
now. I'm just amused at some of the attitudes of the regulars around
here.
aha, now that's funny. all we can do is to state what we think of a map and with this praise or critique the single mapper can see what he did wrong and do it better next time! simple isn't it? apparently NOT!
just look at dagnys posts and the posts of his "fans". their entire posts are made up with petting each others shoulders and ignorign the serious technical flaws. dagny seems to use this thread for linguistical masturbation and his two brainwashed fans are all hot 'n horny to suck his mental crap up!
at the whole time the actual problem, the map is avoided by the pro spam tubes cliqué! instead they try to cinvicne us that they are, when it comes to ut always right because they have a pc hooked to the internet running ut games all night and day. where's the actual logic? I just want to see dagny respond to bot 40's pics on page1!
I just want him to listen to all comments an suggestions made, to read all tutorials on gameplay, lighting and architecture, to visit the unreal wiki and read up a fair share of REAL ut knowledge and not to some humbug pseudo religious gibberish of some nerds who let their pc run all day long!
now imagine to be in this situation once every week and you'll realise that a few people easily get ill tempered at the sheer thickness of some UBER EGO mappers with no skills!
(btw. if dagny would come on my favourite art forum, which sports alot of great talents he'd be banned and assasinated in less than one hour! )

btw. "john di fool" you don't happen to be a fan of moebius' comics? especially the tical saga? compare the tical saga to a piece of paper with 3 strokes on and you'll see what tubes of spam lacks.

Hourences
28th Aug 2003, 12:28 PM
ok you people are hopeless, now stop turning around the subject and keep repeating it cant be a 2(actually its a 1 imo but whatever)

none of the people who say that stuff seem to be able to answer some of our basic views and questions

A. you looked at bots screens ? pls tell us if they look better or not
and explain how the map can be a 5+ if the retail epic maps were a 5 only already, so your saying your map is better as retail maps, that means your better as some pro's at epic, cool

B. the only people who say that you dont need graphics or that leet gameplay is running around in mini tubes seem to be people who have barely any experience with making games themself, and know absolutely nothing about the technical side, and related things,
yet they really think they are damn right, what does this say about those people ? who do you think knows most, has most experience, and thus is most likely to have it correct ? who makes your games ? who creates your gameplay ?


Im amused as well, on how stupid some people are :)

darth_weasel
28th Aug 2003, 01:07 PM
problem with arguing its about gameplay and not looks is that any mapper who is good enough to make great gameplay maps has the skills to make them look good too, and a mapper who cant make his map better than a few cubes and cylinders doesnt have the skills to make a good gameplay map. the two go hand in hand.

also,remember before you bust stock UT maps balls that they had to keep to a ~160 poly count. and considering that, they done very well to make the most of what they were allowed to within the technical boundaries.

about the rating system being skewed, to me, 4.5/5 being average, is not for a map that has "no fatal flaws". for purely having no fatal flaws and nothing else gives it a 1. 4.5/5 average are for maps with nothing as good as their bad points are bad. hence why it is average. bad and good (or a lack thereof) balance. and tubes of spam is not average, its bad points are many and hefty, and its good points are......



oh wait...

Twrecks
28th Aug 2003, 02:34 PM
Despite the great literary license provided by this thread, it has become in grave danger of closure due to the resources it deprives of more worthy subjects. A simple, "this map suxxors" will suffice for future comments. Thank you for your attention, but it is nolonger required.

Hourences
28th Aug 2003, 02:56 PM
a this map suxxor comment would be brainless, and would be almost flaming, and flaming has to be locked
while atm we are having a discussion, with arguments and fully typed out text, which is the reason why forums excist, discussing

WHIPperSNAPper
28th Aug 2003, 03:25 PM
Quoting DiFool: I'm just amused at some of the attitudes of the regulars around here.

Quoting Aggressor: OMG, this thread is hilarious

Indeed.

Twrecks
28th Aug 2003, 03:26 PM
While I agree with the purpose of these forums, which is an extension of the user comment fields in this case, my point is that this subject has been IMO fully covered and any further dicourse moot. I do appriciate the manner in which this subject has been handled. All involved are commended on their contributions. As to a why these forums exsist, a more metaphysical approach may need to be taken. As a brainless tard, that would be beyond unreal comprehension.

MarkVV
28th Aug 2003, 03:36 PM
I just DLed and played teh map.
my maps are horrid I just finished my first one, I would never submit it to NailiC (or submit NaliCity to it) But I like to play my own map, it's mine.
I think you suffer from the same problem.
This map in honestly not as great as you talk it up to be. I dont think any map could be.
I hope you are half joking
no offence, just learn to be objective about your own work.
keep building though.

Balton
28th Aug 2003, 03:56 PM
I just DLed and played teh map.
my maps are horrid I just finished my first one, I would never submit it to NailiC (or submit NaliCity to it) But I like to play my own map, it's mine.
I think you suffer from the same problem.
This map in honestly not as great as you talk it up to be. I dont think any map could be.
I hope you are half joking
no offence, just learn to be objective about your own work.
keep building though.
you can still post screenshots on these boards and a few kind people will point some major flaws out. thus, the next time you'll do a much better map and so on. getting feedback. as long as you are objective about your own stuff(and you sure seems so) you'll get polite feedback and constructive criticism.
if someone goes the dagny-way he'll end up being everyones amusement-pie for 2 days.

Bot_40
28th Aug 2003, 04:18 PM
3 things you need to be a decent mapper.

Patience
Ability to take constructive critisism to improve your work
Being self critical

You seem to have just 1 of those, patience, but you're lacking the other 2 so unless you learn then you ain't gonna go far to making a truely decent map. And the only way I can see you've got patience is that you took 6 months to make the map.
tbh though, I can't comprehend how it took 6 months to make a 96 brush/270 light map, especially seeing as I once managed to make a 942 brush/310 light map in a single day :con:

Zlal
28th Aug 2003, 04:27 PM
Indeed.

I thought you were witty, though obviously not.

thebubba
28th Aug 2003, 04:49 PM
Whew! Enough. What a ride this has been.

Dagny has made a name for himself (though briefly, I suspect) in the UT community after all. Too bad it's not as a Mapper!

Heisher
28th Aug 2003, 06:09 PM
DagnyTaggart:

Now, I agree with most of what the other mappers are saying here, but one thing I gotta say is I admire you're self assurdness.

This is so novel; complete opposites of opinion, in a NaliCity thread no less, and no one flaming! :D

Twrecks
29th Aug 2003, 12:18 AM
This is so novel; complete opposites of opinion, in a NaliCity thread no less, and no one flaming! :D

No, I'd have to say everyone has the opinion the map sucks. If not ATM they will come around.

Fordy
29th Aug 2003, 09:16 AM
:Poop:

SirTahngarth
29th Aug 2003, 01:50 PM
you [the mapper] are really thick. all you did was click on one of the brush builder buttons, set the size, and press subtract. no effort at all went into the construction of this map. Seriously, compare your "map" to any of the stock maps. Notice the difference in the level of detail? The complexity? Hell, about the only map less complex than yours is CTF-AndAction.you really need to get off your soap box, look at your map, and figure out that the people you quoted are just trying to be nice, because your map sucks. No one with any siginificant amount of skill enjoys spammy maps.

You cant evaluate your own map. You simply cannot be objective. These critiques came from people who downloaded this map upon first seeing it, and not people who were following you all the way giving you false hope. just because you and a couple of your friends think it's a good map, does not mean it is a good map.

My first few mapping attempts looked like yours, but i recognized that they werent good maps and didn't release them. It's time you recognized that as well, and moved on and made a better map.

WHIPperSNAPper
29th Aug 2003, 05:47 PM
all you did was click on one of the brush builder buttons, set the size, and press subtract. no effort at all went into the construction of this map. Seriously, compare your "map" to any of the stock maps. Notice the difference in the level of detail? The complexity? Hell, about the only map less complex than yours is CTF-AndAction.

All I did was use one brush builder? No effort went into the map? No effort was put into choosing and aligning textures (see the tubes)? No effort went into the item placement? No effort went into the map's design and layout? It's little more than one great big box? The brush cutter wasn't used? The bot pathing wasn't built, tested, refined, tested, and refined again? Zones and location ID tags weren't added and HOMs fixed?

SirTahngarth has just given us one of the most blatant examples of unbridled intellectual dishonesty that I have ever seen.

You really need to get off your soap box...

What I find amusing about this thread isn't the debate over the map's quality, but rather the amount of almost religious ire and passion that it has stirred up. It's almost like I suggested that Tubes Of Spam was comparable to professionally-made maps, then reached out and stroked people's scrotums. I find it laughable that certain posters have their sensitivity meters turned up so high and that some supposed adults have degenerated into little children on a playground slinging mud, delivering insults, unable to carry out an adult conversation.

Twrecks
29th Aug 2003, 05:55 PM
One more outburst like that and I'll close this thread, NOT.

Bot_40
29th Aug 2003, 06:13 PM
I really don't know what to say. I am beyond words just because of the thought you could possibly be serious when you say the texturing and alignment is anything less than horrific in those tubes :con:
I think I just lost all faith in the human race :hmm:

SkaarjMaster
29th Aug 2003, 10:41 PM
Dagny, I'm not sure if you were serious in that last comment or not. If you know that the map sucks, then why did you release it. If you think it's a great map, then you must be smokin' something we're not. In either case, the sooner you realize a monkey's butt is better than this map and start learning how to map, the better off you and the rest of us will be. Thank you and good night. :biggrin2:

WHIPperSNAPper
30th Aug 2003, 12:12 AM
I really don't know what to say. I am beyond words just because of the thought you could possibly be serious when you say the texturing and alignment is anything less than horrific in those tubes

I put a lot of time into choosing just the right textures for the beloved tubes and then getting them aligned the way I wanted them. I even constructed a huge series of tubes that extended throughout the entire length of the UT space for experimenting with different textures in the tubes.

How would you have done the texturing for them? I like having colorful surfaces and I thought they came out looking pretty good. What do you think they should look like? (Not trying to argue here, just curious.)

Mister_Prophet
30th Aug 2003, 01:03 AM
How would you have done the texturing for them?

I would have aligned them.

Frieza
30th Aug 2003, 01:53 AM
I would have aligned them.

:lol:

Aggressor
30th Aug 2003, 05:12 AM
I've come to think that Dagny is just making fun of us. I mean, eventhough I've come across many such conversations on great many forums, I haven't had an opportunity to see someone behaving on one side like a five year old child who's had his toy car stolen from him and who on the other side so meticulously chooses his words of complaint. I mean, reading his statements gives me a picture of kids in kindergarten squabbling in an academic manner. So I am beginning to thing that Dagny is just having us in a kind of mental trainig or something...

Ok, in case Dagny is serious: look, we apparently don't like your map. And nobody else save for guys who run Annaction on their servers (and play it OMG) does. Face it. There are factual distinctions between your map and those that we here deem "quality maps", that you haven't adressed, eventhough you were challenged to (instead you went personal). There are theoretical and empirical standards that are set in the mapping community and your map just doesn't reach them in any aspect.

We're not arguing with you here in order to scorn efforts that you put into making your map, but to try to convince you to see the obvious weaknesses your map has and improve you mapping skilz. That is just the standard approach that this community has developed, as it yields best results.

So, Dagny, you have to understand, that eventhough you think you put a lot of time in deciding the looks of your map, expirienced mappers put it even more and especially use it more efficiently.

|ChAoS|Merlin
30th Aug 2003, 07:04 AM
Dude dont listen to these guys, especially Mr Prophet, he says a map is 50% gameplay and 50% atmosphere, and frankly thats just total crap, no matter how good a map looks, if it has no flow and tactical playability then its crap, I would rather play a one textured good map than a map full of atmosphere that sucks anyday. As far as nobody wanting to play spammy maps, well I do, and I think calling flac,goo,rockets,ripper blades, spam is just their way of saying " I SUCK" Have you ever played IMAGO? looks cool, sounds cool, but it has bugs and the gameplay sucks, How that fool got to be a reviewer I will never know. Check out the newer reviewers, most give constructive critisism of maps, not "The Prophet" tho all he ever does is slam maps. They say compare your map to the orignials, Hmmm I'm not sure but I dont think you got paid big bucks for making your map like Cliffy B did. What I find really funny about all this atmosphere talk is I play online alot, and most dudes cant even tell you what skin you use let along give a crap about the torches or lights in a map, mis-aligned textures ever look close at Deck 16? Anyway your map is good, could it be better as far as looks go, sure, but the gameplay will not change no matter how much crap you add.

To all the spam haters out there I'd like to say this, Are you going to cry "no fair you suck" when a hand grenade is throw into your fox hole? If you dont like reg weps then play insta or sniper match and STFU already.

PS. even with the bugs and crappy gameplay DM-Imago got a 7.0 lmao.

Bot_40
30th Aug 2003, 09:10 AM
Please go away. You are owning us.

SkaarjMaster
30th Aug 2003, 09:49 AM
This thread just keeps on going and going doesn't it. First, Imago is still a good map even with the bugs. Second, even if you don't like the Mr. Prophet attitude, he does know what he's talking about as far as the mapping goes. Third, maps are 50% gameplay and 50% atmosphere; that's really the only fair way to review them (any variation beyond 60/40 or 40/60 is not right). Fourth, I think his looks and gameplay could be better if he changed the map (depends on how he does it, starting from scratch or not). Fifth, if he doesn't at least listen to some of the advice here, then his maps are going to continue to be slammed. Anymore magical advice, Merlin? :lol:

Balton
30th Aug 2003, 10:30 AM
This thread just keeps on going and going doesn't it. First, Imago is still a good map even with the bugs. Second, even if you don't like the Mr. Prophet attitude, he does know what he's talking about as far as the mapping goes. Third, maps are 50% gameplay and 50% atmosphere; that's really the only fair way to review them (any variation beyond 60/40 or 40/60 is not right). Fourth, I think his looks and gameplay could be better if he changed the map (depends on how he does it, starting from scratch or not). Fifth, if he doesn't at least listen to some of the advice here, then his maps are going to continue to be slammed. Anymore magical advice, Merlin? :lol:
I hate people who call themself "merlin" :rolleyes:

WHIPperSNAPper
30th Aug 2003, 10:36 AM
I would have aligned them.

I did align the textures in the tubes, carefully. I am very pleased with the way they look. My goal was not to adjust scaling so that each texture would fit completely within each slat nor so that the end of each tube starts with the edge of an existing texture. Rather it was to create the looks that they do have using portions of pre-existing textures.

paranoia
30th Aug 2003, 10:36 AM
Maybe we should stop induldging in his retarded desire for publicity and notoriety (sp?) and pray he'll undergo spontaenous(sp? god i'm dumb) combustion. . .or maybe i should shut my mouth? ;)

And that merlin person, you're silly. I would much prefer running around in a prettiful map and improvise on it's gameplay (or lack thereof) than have to play a map with my eyes shut. . .

|ChAoS|Merlin
30th Aug 2003, 01:06 PM
I hate people who call themself "merlin"

Sounds like a personal problem to me Balton.

and I still dont see the 50% 50% thing, come on dudes be real for once in your life, whats a better map to play Codex if it was all 1 brick texture, or Morbias with flashing lights and go-go dancers stripping for you. We are basing our judgements on actually playing UT are'nt we?

My magical formula is something like this.

Gameplay and tactical layout = 80%

Sounds and music = 10%

BS decoration = 10%

Most great UT players dont even have the music on, and could care less about the "LOOKS" of any map.

From most of the people I have met I get the same reply about UT2k3, and that is it looks cool but all the detailing in the maps take away from gameplay and can give you a major headache if you play to long.

Can someone make a map that starts with game playability and layout and not a F*****G theme! Or better yet how bout this for a theme, a fighting area made for UT deathmatch competitions LOL.

darth_weasel
30th Aug 2003, 01:38 PM
even if gameplay is 100% of the score this map this still scores a 2, so what's your argument?

Mister_Prophet
30th Aug 2003, 02:10 PM
Dude dont listen to these guys, especially Mr Prophet, he says a map is 50% gameplay and 50% atmosphere, and frankly thats just total crap

No. A good Map should have good visuals and good gameplays to go with it, period. And a wise mapper, and gamer, would realize that visuals go hand in hand with gameplay, and a good map will have the architecture and design exist for the sole purpose of amplifieying the gameplay, likewise, the gameplay itself will be built around a very close relationship with the maps atmospherical layout. For examples of this see the following maps:

DM-Amon
DM-HyperBoreal
DM-Oiga][
DM-Aristocracy
CTF-Addien-dwy

and plenty more...

no matter how good a map looks, if it has no flow and tactical playability then its crap

Yeah, i've kinda been saying that from day one, thanks Wizard. Though, like I have also said many times in the past, the door swings both ways.

And no, this map has neither good gameplay or looks, so why you are posting your arguement, I know not.

I would rather play a one textured good map than a map full of atmosphere that sucks anyday.

Nobody is stopping you.

As far as nobody wanting to play spammy maps, well I do, and I think calling flac,goo,rockets,ripper blades, spam is just their way of saying " I SUCK",

Cute, very cute. Why does this arguement always have to go with the "you people who say the map sucks must suck at UT"? Where the hell did you pull that one from?:)

Have you ever played IMAGO?

A few times.

looks cool

No it doesn't.

sounds cool

Fair enough.

but it has bugs and the gameplay sucks

It has bugs, yes, and I've always been the first one on line to address them. And whether or not the gameplay sucks seems to be matter of opinion, some people like the map, others like you, hate it. I don't much like it either, the item placement is horrendus and flow is sucky.

How that fool got to be a reviewer I will never know.

I slept with NC staff leaders. The Prophet is a whore.

Check out the newer reviewers, most give constructive critisism of maps, not "The Prophet" tho all he ever does is slam maps.

Oh now that isn't true, I give constructive criticism, if you are smart enough to understand that it is constructive criticism instead of me just "slamming a map". Funny how my reviews of maps Like Aristocracy, Kenshin, and other good maps go completely unnoticed, and you "spam fans" only get on my case when I give a crappy map like Tubes of Spam the 2 it so obviously deserves. I told the guy what is wrong with the map, whether he listens to me is his call.

Most great UT players dont even have the music on, and could care less about the "LOOKS" of any map.

That is a laughably false generalization.

I did align the textures in the tubes, carefully. I am very pleased with the way they look. My goal was not to adjust scaling so that each texture would fit completely within each slat nor so that the end of each tube starts with the edge of an existing texture. Rather it was to create the looks that they do have using portions of pre-existing textures.

Dagny....give me a break, really. You did not align the tubes, if I decided to go into my sexy ued and subtract a cylinder with 16 sides, the resulting unaligned raw subtraction would be identical to your tubes, and that is the brutal truth.

Bot_40
30th Aug 2003, 02:22 PM
Ya, he's completly missed the point.
I don't currently give a **** whether you rate this map on looks or gameplay. It has neither.

Dagny, once again, nobody could care less if you like the texturing in your map. Everyone else seems to be blinded by it's ugliness :con:

FreakinMeany
30th Aug 2003, 04:15 PM
Call me a silly ninny, but does anyone else find it amusing that comments for the map are disabled, but there's a non-linked link from the map's page to this thread for commenting on the map? :rolleyes:

:y5:

Bot_40
30th Aug 2003, 05:27 PM
Hourences says!


omg bu is ****ed, i deleted my post in the hope i could post my editted version again
like not, php error




All I did was use one brush builder? No effort went into the map? No effort was put into choosing and aligning textures (see the tubes)? No effort went into the item placement? No effort went into the map's design and layout? It's little more than one great big box? The brush cutter wasn't used? The bot pathing wasn't built, tested, refined, tested, and refined again? Zones and location ID tags weren't added and HOMs fixed?



http://forums.beyondunreal.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65469

if you think your brush work or floorplan is anywhere near complex then plsssssssssss answer me why your map compared to ctf coret looks like 5 minutes work ? coret is 3 years old ffs, if you would compare it to newer map it would be even more complex
while yours is made out of a very limited amount of brushes, all default shapes, just cubes cylinders etc who are rotated
HOW the fu<k do you call that complexicity ?
i made maps with about 6000 brushes, your map has 50 at max, how the hell do you call that complex at all ?


What I find amusing about this thread isn't the debate over the map's quality, but rather the amount of almost religious ire and passion that it has stirred up. It's almost like I suggested that Tubes Of Spam was comparable to professionally-made maps, then reached out and stroked people's scrotums. I find it laughable that certain posters have their sensitivity meters turned up so high and that some supposed adults have degenerated into little children on a playground slinging mud, delivering insults, unable to carry out an adult conversation.


we are absolutely 100 procent calm, not under any way frustrated, stressed, or mentally damaged

I find it laughable how little brain certain posters got left

your tex are 100 procent misaligned btw, lacking trim, horrible choice in color composition, bad theme, etc
they are bad


and I still dont see the 50% 50% thing, come on dudes be real for once in your life, whats a better map to play Codex if it was all 1 brick texture, or Morbias with flashing lights and go-go dancers stripping for you. We are basing our judgements on actually playing UT are'nt we?
{/QUOTE]
played over 250 clanwars, 100000s hour of online play
morbias is terrible
if codex was all 1 brick i couldnt see well where i was walking
and i am real, unfortunally for you

[quote]
My magical formula is something like this.

Gameplay and tactical layout = 80%

Sounds and music = 10%

BS decoration = 10%

Most great UT players dont even have the music on, and could care less about the "LOOKS" of any map.

From most of the people I have met I get the same reply about UT2k3, and that is it looks cool but all the detailing in the maps take away from gameplay and can give you a major headache if you play to long.

Can someone make a map that starts with game playability and layout and not a F*****G theme! Or better yet how bout this for a theme, a fighting area made for UT deathmatch competitions LOL.


your proposed theme sux terrible

you first start with a style and idea you want to do, not anything else

and can you please read what we said in the previous replies, we are repeating ourself here
so again :

the only people who say that you dont need graphics or that leet gameplay is running around in mini tubes seem to be people who have barely any experience with making games themself, and know absolutely nothing about the technical side, and related things,
yet they really think they are damn right, they think they are more right then all those pro's, they know more then for example cliffyb, etc etc,
what does this say about those people ? who do you think knows most, has most experience, and thus is most likely to have it correct ? who makes your games ? who creates your gameplay ?
your honestly arent going to say you know more then all those people do you ? then why do you think you are so terrrible right and they arent ?

pls answer, if you can
pls make me a game, that sells a few million with your magical 80 % scheme

also, if people dont know what skins they use they are obvious noobs, im starting to doubt with what kind of people you play ut and how "leet" your in it
makes me think you got absolutely no idea about gameplay


Check out the newer reviewers, most give constructive critisism of maps, not "The Prophet" tho all he ever does is slam maps.
there is nothing possitive to say about it, duh theres barely any constructive critism
secondly, with people who think their map owns so much its useless to give constructive critism, whatever you say theyll deny it
deck sux terrible btw, its not a map, its just a file


They say compare your map to the orignials, Hmmm I'm not sure but I dont think you got paid big bucks for making your map like Cliffy B did.

all maps are being compared to professional maps, its your challenge to do better, like plenty of people did in the community, they suceeded, and you can too if you stop whinning, put your ego down, and go practice some more
lets put it differently shall we, instead of comparing to ctf coret, a professional map, lets compare it to some great community ctf maps, custom maps by unpayed amateurs, exactly like you
oh sh1t, they are even better as coret, damn now the rating scale is going to be affected and you only score a 0.25/10 now, sorry


To all the spam haters out there I'd like to say this, Are you going to cry "no fair you suck" when a hand grenade is throw into your fox hole? If you dont like reg weps then play insta or sniper match and STFU already.
this is a game, not a war, if you it logically to compare games and amusement with terrible wars you got a mental problem


and comment thing on the site if for commenting amap, while the forum is for discussing, like we are doing now, it would have been a flame war in the tiny commentfields, forum is better for that

Gundato
30th Aug 2003, 05:34 PM
i officially love this thread :D

here is a map i whipped together a few days ago in most likely teh same amount of time you spent (you made custom textures, i spent time making the letters with the 2d shape editor :D). This map has very spammy gameplay, but that does not make it good (well, in Excessive Overkill it is, but that is not the point)

http://www.fileplanet.com/files/120000/129713.shtml

(ignore teh UT2k3 thing, fileplanet just sucks)

|ChAoS|Merlin
30th Aug 2003, 05:42 PM
I thought that was what this was all about, the fact that someone who may like the map cant even comment on Nalicity3 site and maybe increase the overall score alittle.

From the SS I saw based on an amature level, which is what most maps submitted to Nali are, the map is more than a 2, based on a pro level ok maybe its not even that, but dont forget all that most of the mappers out there are amatures, making maps for fun not money. try to be more objective and understanding of the fact that not everyone has countless hours to read up on how to use Ued properly, let alone spent the time needed to make a pro level map.

If I carved a statue 1/2 as good as Michel Angelos David, but used a pocket knife to do it, would you still call it crap.

Question: Is Nalicity3 a place for Amature mappers to showcase maps and be judge fairly on that basis? or is it a showcase for wanna be pro mappers just waiting for a company to call and offer a 6 figure salary too.

My point, as a pro level map its a 1 or 2, but done by an amature I'd say it should be much higher, I have seen some really awful maps out there that would make this one almost look great.

Hourences
30th Aug 2003, 05:52 PM
omg i can post replies again !

did you actually read this
"lets put it differently shall we, instead of comparing to ctf coret, a professional map, lets compare it to some great community ctf maps, custom maps by unpayed amateurs, exactly like you
oh sh1t, they are even better as coret, damn now the rating scale is going to be affected and you only score a 0.25/10 now, sorry"
merlin ?
the pro maps are 3 years old, they are old, the latest created top user maps offer much more, so lets just compare everything to those latest top custom maps then
so whats your point now ? amateur map vs amateur map comparisation

and can i pls get an answer on
"the only people who say that you dont need graphics or that leet gameplay is running around in mini tubes seem to be people who have barely any experience with making games themself, and know absolutely nothing about the technical side, and related things,
yet they really think they are damn right, they think they are more right then all those pro's, they know more then for example cliffyb, etc etc,
what does this say about those people ? who do you think knows most, has most experience, and thus is most likely to have it correct ? who makes your games ? who creates your gameplay ?
your honestly arent going to say you know more then all those people do you ? then why do you think you are so terrrible right and they arent ?"
that ?
why is it that none of you people can answer this ?

Sarevok
30th Aug 2003, 06:28 PM
Wtf?!?!?!?!?

WHIPperSNAPper
30th Aug 2003, 06:36 PM
Dagny....give me a break, really. You did not align the tubes, if I decided to go into my sexy ued and subtract a cylinder with 16 sides, the resulting unaligned raw subtraction would be identical to your tubes, and that is the brutal truth.

ROFL! Many of those textures were scaled up to 2.0, so it was a wee bit more complicated than just selecting the entire brush and adding textures willy nilly. I panned through them in both directions to find alignments I liked and I looked at lots of textures. Some of those tubes don't have flat ends either--some are cut at angles (to make the bends), which means that many of those slat-surfaces are not of equal length. You honestly believe that it was as simple as just selecting the entire brush and then selecting textures and voila--that's it?

Bot_40
30th Aug 2003, 06:53 PM
From the SS I saw based on an amature level, which is what most maps submitted to Nali are, the map is more than a 2, based on a pro level ok maybe its not even that, but dont forget all that most of the mappers out there are amatures, making maps for fun not money. try to be more objective and understanding of the fact that not everyone has countless hours to read up on how to use Ued properly, let alone spent the time needed to make a pro level map.

Let me inform you that your argument is completly wrong based on a single fact:

Amatur maps are often actually a LOT better than pro maps

...so basicly, your entire post makes no sense whatsoever.
I don't understand how you can be saying how the UT2k3 maps have no gameplay in one post, then in the very next post you try to imply that pro maps are somehow infinitely better than 3rd party maps. I think you'd better make up your mind what the hell you are arguing about before you start flaming around :con:

Hourences
30th Aug 2003, 07:03 PM
ROFL! Many of those textures were scaled up to 2.0, so it was a wee bit more complicated than just selecting the entire brush and adding textures willy nilly. I panned through them in both directions to find alignments I liked and I looked at lots of textures. Some of those tubes don't have flat ends either--some are cut at angles (to make the bends), which means that many of those slat-surfaces are not of equal length. You honestly believe that it was as simple as just selecting the entire brush and then selecting textures and voila--that's it?


about your complex mapping and tex pls read :

http://forums.beyondunreal.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65469

if you think your brush work or floorplan is anywhere near complex then plsssssssssss answer me why your map compared to ctf coret looks like 5 minutes work ? coret is 3 years old ffs, if you would compare it to newer map it would be even more complex
while yours is made out of a very limited amount of brushes, all default shapes, just cubes cylinders etc who are rotated
HOW the fu<k do you call that complexicity ?
i made maps with about 6000 brushes, your map has 50 at max, how the hell do you call that complex at all ?

thats 50 to 6000, WHERE was your complexity again ?

http://forums.beyondunreal.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65468
the texture alignment was WHERE exactly in that tube ? they all point in the same direction=default alignment, or else extremel sucky self made alignment

Bot_40
30th Aug 2003, 07:06 PM
ROFL! Many of those textures were scaled up to 2.0, so it was a wee bit more complicated than just selecting the entire brush and adding textures willy nilly.
Let me just check...yes...it takes exactly 5 clicks to scale a surface up once you selected it
Right click -> Properties -> Alignment -> Select 2 -> Apply
Yes sorry, that really is a complicated process :con:

I panned through them in both directions to find alignments I liked and I looked at lots of textures.
OK, the map must really be worth 8/10. It obviously takes 1-2 months to select a decent texture (which even then you failed to do)

Some of those tubes don't have flat ends either--some are cut at angles (to make the bends), which means that many of those slat-surfaces are not of equal length.
But that makes **** all difference since you didn't bother trying to line the textures up at the end of the tunnel anyways (see pic) :con:

You honestly believe that it was as simple as just selecting the entire brush and then selecting textures and voila--that's it?
No, I believe you, I really do. I'm sure it takes months to get a really refined look like that.

Bot_40
30th Aug 2003, 07:32 PM
Ya, gotta love that beutiful "never seen before" look :tup:

WHIPperSNAPper
30th Aug 2003, 07:59 PM
OK, the map must really be worth 8/10. It obviously takes 1-2 months to select a decent texture (which even then you failed to do)

You would have to be a retard (or a more than willing believer) to think I spent 8 hours a day for 6 months straight working on the map. In the readme I said it took 6 months to build. Maybe I should have said I built it over a 6 month period. I put a nice amount of work into it, but probably no more than 100 hours. A couple hours here, a couple hours there, often going weeks without touching it. (Running a clan and getting hooked on organized pick-up-game matches can suck up a lot of time.)

My point wasn't that the textures in the tube are the work of an experienced professional. My point was that Mr. Prophet is clearly wrong to say that the tube textures did not require effort and that as a result his credibility and objectivity are at issue and that it's difficult to take him seriously.

Aside from providing an amusing look into the sociology of supposed semi-pro UT mappers, the only thing this thread has accomplished is to reconfirm my pre-existing belief that Tubes Of Spam is not a professionally-done map. I still think it's a good amatuer map and I still don't understand what people's beef is with the textures in the tubes; I think they look great.

Hourences
30th Aug 2003, 08:06 PM
your excuse sounds simple and cheap, and is pretty irrelevant, its about the fact that your tex alignment suck terrible, like you can clearly see in the pics

what you said was that your aligned the tex carefully, and put a great deal of time and work in it, regardless if this is 6 hours a day or whatever, but you did say that
fact is that it looks completely unaligned, and looks absolutely terrible
just admit it, or come up with more cool excuses so we can have a laugh

darth_weasel
30th Aug 2003, 08:15 PM
100 hours? i just feel sad now :/ what a waste of life

WHIPperSNAPper
30th Aug 2003, 08:32 PM
100 hours? i just feel sad now :/ what a waste of life

Unlike idiot savants and the amazing Darth Weasel, not everyone can finish their second quality amatuer map in under 20 hours. I know I spent at least 30 hours learning how to do the bot pathing, testing, and refining it. And of course, I didn't build the map straight up knowing exactly how I wanted it to be; I changed and rebuilt various portions of it a couple times. (The tough part about mapping isn't the building; it's the artistic aspects.)

I'm hoping my obviously pecuniary intellect will allow me to eventually reach some understanding of what exactly people are objecting to about the tube texture alignments. Maybe they aren't perfect, but they are far from putrid. I'm tempted to conclude that several of the participants in this thread are just pretending that tube textures are god-awful for mutual back patting and dogmatic reasons.

I hope I get to be the one to submit post 100.

darth_weasel
30th Aug 2003, 08:45 PM
okay to put joking aside for a moment and answer the questioning of prophets review, you said that it wasnt objective and the reason the tubes slants arent textured in the normal way and that the ends arent trimmed off at the end of the texture is thats what you were aiming for... a reviewer cannot review by what a mapper was aiming for, or a subtracted cube would get 10 if thats what the mapper meant. its just silly.a map has to be reviewed on opinion and this review wasnt just prophets opinion but 95% of peoples, aa you can see from the comments. you cant expect a good review because the map is good to you and a small handful of others. is your idea of an "objective review" a review that rates what you done compared to what you were trying to do?

Zarkazm
30th Aug 2003, 08:57 PM
My point wasn't that the textures in the tube are the work of an experienced professional. My point was that Mr. Prophet is clearly wrong to say that the tube textures did not require effort and that as a result his credibility and objectivity are at issue and that it's difficult to take him seriously.
Well, first I ought to point out how badly the "professional" comment is. What Bot failed to tell you is that the tube he compares yours to in his post above, the one that while simple looks just awfully good compared to yours, was made by him just for this comparison. He is not a pro, and he is trying to show you what "aligned textures" are.

As for the "effort" comment - I know from experience that sometimes alot of effort can result in nothing but waste.
The Prophet was right - the textures on the tube don't look aligned, they look slapped on by a noob. Only sometimes it may take a noob ages just to fail doing something properly.
But sometimes it can take a noob ages just to fail doing a job properly. Which is what happened here. No matter how much effort you invested, the result it total failure. Maybe you did it "on purpose" making yourself believe it looks interesting and original. It does, however, look bad.

I am sorry. But either you need to change your mapping style completely or give up. The question is if you are actually capable of changing your style and make good map or if you simply cannot do better. Which would be sad for you, but we all must admit defeat sometimes.

WHIPperSNAPper
30th Aug 2003, 09:04 PM
okay to put joking aside for a moment and answer the questioning of prophets review, you said that it wasnt objective and the reason the tubes slants arent textured in the normal way and that the ends arent trimmed off at the end of the texture is thats what you were aiming for... a reviewer cannot review by what a mapper was aiming for, or a subtracted cube would get 10 if thats what the mapper meant. its just silly.a map has to be reviewed on opinion and this review wasnt just prophets opinion but 95% of peoples, aa you can see from the comments. you cant expect a good review because the map is good to you and a small handful of others. is your idea of an "objective review" a review that rates what you done compared to what you were trying to do?

"95%" of what of which people? 95% of professional and semi-professional mappers who don't like spammy maps and who have been offended by promotional comments and a flame war? A great many of the regular UT players who played the map online thought it was a fun map.

My idea of an objective review is one that compares the map in question to all other existing UT CTF maps (including all the amatuer maps) and rates them either on a 10% per point (1-10) grade scale (or an 11% per point 9 point scale) or a Gaussian distribution and that doesn't knock a map down merely because the reviewer personally despises spam, was incensed by the mapper's promotion of his work, or because the texturing was not professional or didn't meet professional conventions. I regard Prophet's review as a pure joke; it even carries an air of mocking cynicism to it and I'm pretty certain it was intended to retaliate for his perception of the author's having hubris.

darth_weasel
30th Aug 2003, 09:14 PM
we arent comparing your map to professional maps, the majority of ametur maps have better looks and gameplay, hence why you score way below average. also, since when did "spammy" cease to be a derogatory term? its a bad thing. i could say "there is a section of players that enjoy default cubes so the fact you gave it 2 is unobjective". c'mon, that's nonsense.

WHIPperSNAPper
30th Aug 2003, 09:18 PM
The Prophet was right - the textures on the tube don't look aligned, they look slapped on by a noob.

If they weren't aligned then how come the tubes that lead to the blue flag room have such nice looks? The red ones? Why do the tubes leading away from the rocket launcher and ripper rooms have nice blue and red bands on them instead of having the blue and red band parts on the individual slats not connect smoothly with each other? (For the tubes that have angular cuts, the textures on the slats were not aligned together horizontally when I went to add the textures.) I really have no idea exactly what you guys are objecting to regarding the tube textures; I am very happy with them and think you guys are nuts.


I am sorry. But either you need to change your mapping style completely or give up. The question is if you are actually capable of changing your style and make good map or if you simply cannot do better.

I still totally disagree with your implied premise that Tubes Of Spam is a bad map. I agree that it isn't professionally-made, which I knew before the first post hit this bulletin board, but no one has shaken my belief that it's a good map both for overall looks and fun factor.

If I continue to build maps and don't improve to semi-professional grade and don't learn how to properly allign textures in spammy tubes and don't give up, aside from getting flaked in my own creations, what's the worst that could happen?

(I hope this is #100.)

WHIPperSNAPper
30th Aug 2003, 09:28 PM
we arent comparing your map to professional maps, the majority of ametur maps have better looks and gameplay, hence why you score way below average.

I have examined a great many amatuer maps and I disagree that's it below average.

also, since when did "spammy" cease to be a derogatory term? its a bad thing. i could say "there is a section of players that enjoy default cubes so the fact you gave it 2 is unobjective". c'mon, that's nonsense.

It isn't nonsense in the same way that saying it's wrong to criticize a suit for not being a dress is not nonsense. The map wasn't intended for people who despise spam; it was intended for the large amount of UT players who do enjoy high body count spam maps. I fully intended to build a tubular spam map and you have to admit that it's far beyond a simple cube-shaped room and unadulterated rotated cylinders. My point is that such a map should be graded in the context of its value to people who enjoy high body count spammy maps and that it would thus be wrong to knock off points on account of the map's genre--small rooms, tight corridors. I'm sure there must be grades of quality, fun factor, and overall value within that genre.

Mister_Prophet
31st Aug 2003, 01:58 AM
My point was that Mr. Prophet is clearly wrong to say that the tube textures did not require effort and that as a result his credibility and objectivity are at issue and that it's difficult to take him seriously.

I regard Prophet's review as a pure joke; it even carries an air of mocking cynicism to it and I'm pretty certain it was intended to retaliate for his perception of the author's having hubris.

Joke?

The only joke around here is you, your reaction to this whole ordeal is so stunningly humorous that I am even begining to think you just released this map for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of us. Any revierwer on this site would have given your map the same score, if you do not believe me, then ask them, and ask for a review at Unreal Playground and see what you get as a final score, UP is much more generous in terms of reviewing, you may even break a 30/100 there.


Mocking cynicism?

I was just as honest with my review of your map as I am with any other map. My comments were of what i generally thought of the map, I wasn't trying to mock you in anyway, your map is really just THAT BAD.

Retaliation?

For what exactly? I did not utter a single comment about your map, even after reading your whole speech about how radical your map was, and I remained silent even after I read all the negative comments. I judged your map after I played it.

Nobody here is trying to "rub you out" because we think we are superior.

Nobody here, except one of us, is a professional mapper, we don't regard ourselves as holier than thou art.

Nobody is out to get you.

We just think your map sucks, and we have all told you more than enough times why and how you should fix it. You got contructive criticism, both from my review and our comments, to continue with your inane accusations and theories on why we are cleary wrong, is a trivial pursuit.

If they weren't aligned then how come the tubes that lead to the blue flag room have such nice looks?

Nice looks? Are you Mad? NOTHING in your map has nice looks, there is absolutly no technical talent put into any of your tubes. I am no great mapper, but I can make those "nice looking" tubes of yours in about 43 seconds. And even before you rant, i am not gloating about my skills or whatever, I am telling you that as a fellow mapper. You really really really really really need to realize this....like right now.

It isn't nonsense in the same way that saying it's wrong to criticize a suit for not being a dress is not nonsense.

What the hell did you just say?

The map wasn't intended for people who despise spam; it was intended for the large amount of UT players who do enjoy high body count spam maps.

You may think spammy maps are awesome and cool, most UT players in the community do not and 90% of the people who venture to Nali City do not either. And your map is spammy to the point where it isn't even fun.

I fully intended to build a tubular spam map and you have to admit that it's far beyond a simple cube-shaped room and unadulterated rotated cylinders.

You map is NOT much different from that describtion, in fact you described it perfectly. Don't you take a dump in a box and try to tell the Baker that you made a truffle.

the context of its value to people who enjoy high body count spammy maps and that it would thus be wrong to knock off points on account of the map's genre--small rooms, tight corridors.

I wouldn't call your map part of a genre, more of a early attempt that is well below average for a CTF map. A map with small rooms and tight corridors is not the way to label your map. You corridors are unbearingly narrow, and unless you love spammy maps, your going to hate this map. A very very very small percentage of gamers for UT actually like this "spammy" style, your genre is a small server based goof game that is nowhere near ratable as an honest mainstream genre. You have pop, rock, rap and Hip Hop....your that homeless guy on the corner who makes a musical chant with a rusted spoon against a light post, hoping some merciful sap will drop a quarter in your mug.


I'm sure there must be grades of quality, fun factor, and overall value within that genre.

I graded your map on quality, fun factor, and overal value.

Quality= basic noobie construction with uninspired layout and technical achievement.

Fun Factor= Shallow and boring, gimmick spam trend grows tiresome within first 3 seconds of play time and evolves into disinterest.

Overal value: Very sub par.

|ChAoS|Merlin
31st Aug 2003, 03:05 AM
You guys are totally right, this map is the worst amature map ever, I mean it really,really,really,really sucks bad.

Everyone please love me now. LOL.

Zarkazm
31st Aug 2003, 05:28 AM
If I continue to build maps and don't improve to semi-professional grade and don't learn how to properly allign textures in spammy tubes and don't give up, aside from getting flaked in my own creations, what's the worst that could happen?
Sorry, my mistake. When I find out I suck at doing something I usually stop rather than continuing to do it badly; that would not satisfy me. But I forgot that there are indeed many people who are not bothered by their lack of skill. What you call semi-professional isn't professional at all, it's called "skilled" and usually the natural result of combining talent with experience.

So if you like making bad maps and if you find people who like to play them fine, enjoy yourself. Just don't expect us to appreciate the quality of these maps. We are elitist bastards who only play semi-professional maps kthxbye. :rolleyes:


You guys are totally right, this map is the worst amature map ever, I mean it really,really,really,really sucks bad.

Everyone please love me now. LOL.
No, I hate low-quality sarcasm. Burn in the fires of Hell... DM-Helleth][ to be precise.

Zlal
31st Aug 2003, 06:42 AM
I have examined a great many amatuer maps and I disagree that's it below average.



It isn't nonsense in the same way that saying it's wrong to criticize a suit for not being a dress is not nonsense. The map wasn't intended for people who despise spam; it was intended for the large amount of UT players who do enjoy high body count spam maps. I fully intended to build a tubular spam map and you have to admit that it's far beyond a simple cube-shaped room and unadulterated rotated cylinders. My point is that such a map should be graded in the context of its value to people who enjoy high body count spammy maps and that it would thus be wrong to knock off points on account of the map's genre--small rooms, tight corridors. I'm sure there must be grades of quality, fun factor, and overall value within that genre.

The thing is, there isn't a large amount of people who play "high body count maps". Most people play the original maps, few of which are meant to serve 12 players plus and few of which actually do.

I could make a really nice "high body count" map if I wanted, that had more quality and more fun factor.
I'm not sure about value... can maps really have value?

Zlal
31st Aug 2003, 07:02 AM
I am not offended by you, only entertained. If you think that it takes angered effort to write these posts, then I assure you this takes 5 minutes of my time, which I can fit in whilst I wait for a download or a rebuild to complete.



I will now attempt to explain why the map deserves a 2.

The map works, and therefore is higher than a 0. It does show some effort, which makes it worth more than a 1.

We at Nalicity (I am a reviewer too, I'll have you know) are required to review the map according to a scema and even then must compare it to both ends of the multicoloured spectrum that is the mapping scene. At one end, we havbe maps that don't work. On the other, we have the maps that outshine the maps that the pro's made.
These maps require looks and gameplay, because to get a 9, 8 or 7 you need a good degree of both, whatever your view of the importance of looks and so called fun factor.
That you cannot argue. You need graphics and gameplay to tickle the balls of above average maps, and however you look at it, that makes sense, yes?

Your map has a destrintive lack of graphics, or at least any effort into making it look nice. That restricts it to a 5 according to my mental projection of the scema.
The map has some gameplay, though like others have said, it is not complex and has no "advanced techniques" that I could say add to the map. It has fun factor, like you argue. That is where the "two" comes from, from an view that the map must cater for all types of ut players. For the same reason that maps suited for campers recieve don't usually have high scores, tight maps recieve a knock.

Maps that have a high gameplay score usually have gameplay allowing for both types of players, or have gameplay that is impressive and you know but moving around it and fighting that the map has gameplay that has been thought out, planned and reworked many times to try and prefect it. That takes experience, which you don't have.


In your past postings, you seem to think that just because you and others like that genre that that genre matters more than others. That is not true.

You also seem to be thinking that as your second map it deserves a better score. This is not true. You don't get a bonus for that kind of thing.

There you have it, a reason why your map got a 2. You can argue, but if we are being stubborn, then we are no worse than you.

Bot_40
31st Aug 2003, 07:06 AM
I'm sure there must be grades of quality, fun factor, and overall value within that genre.
I'm sick of people trying to use this argument.
Because by the same argument I could justify giving a subtracted cube + player start 10/10 becuase it's a perfect map for the genre of "Subtracted cubes with player starts"

And quit yer gaussian scale bull****. What would happen if you went into an art gallery and started rating the paintings using a gaussian distribution to 2042 decimal places? You get laughed at. And precisely the same thing will happen here :con:

Zlal
31st Aug 2003, 07:06 AM
Whilst I am still waiting, I shall add more.

I just want to know a few things. Ignoring these questions will only proove our earlier points of you being ignorant and arrogant.

A) Do you read these posts and take them into account or scorn them as you accuse us of doing to your map?

B) Do you actually believe that we are offended by your posts?

C) Do you really think we give two monkey's about your promotion? it was a little ambitious, but you are only in this "mess" now because you will not even talk rationally to us about the fact the map got a 2.

D) Lastly, do you take your mapping seriously, or is it just something you thought you'd do one day?

Zlal
31st Aug 2003, 07:19 AM
Last comment for now.

The "comments" section of your map on the database is really humerous.

It sounds as if you are a sore loser - one who can't take critisism either.
Writing that the review the map was given and the comments were a joke, of all things, makes it sound like you have been bitten by a bee than you sat on.

I think you are the joke here, not us or Mr. Prophet.

Bot_40
31st Aug 2003, 09:10 AM
k, I'm bored with this thread now. Me, hourences, proph, shad, we are all telling you as more experienced mappers that the texturing sucks, the lighting sucks, the layout is basic and not fun, the map has no gameplay whatsoever. This is not a personal insult though you will no doubt take it as one.
You now have 2 options and it's not hard to guess which one you will chose given what you've been posting before now. The choice is yours, I'm finished trying to argue through this thread.
1) Completly ignore everything we said, carry on making the horrible maps with bad texturing, no theme, no gameplay. You and your leet experienced ut players can run around and hold down fire on the flak cannon for 10 hours a day. Then that small 10% of the community can marvel at how amazing your maps are. Then perhaps you can moan even more when they all score 2-3/10 when you get them reviewed and perhaps start another flame thread and argue how brilliant and original the texturing is.
2) You can relook at your map critically, read tutorials on architecture, lighting, gameplay, sounds etc. Open other highly rated maps, copy elements from them then develop your own ideas. Get your maps beta tested, get feedback from other experienced mappers, listen to what they say and take their advice, and in the end create genuinly good maps that 90% of the commmunity will love.

People have tried to help. They've tried to tell you what is wrong with the map, and how to improve. You take it as a personal insult and reply with flames and arguments on how all the mappers/utplayers with 3 years experience are all wrong.
You try to convince yourself and us that your opinion of your own map carries more weight than all of the reviewers at the largest UT map review site on the entire net. This is the same site which due to the foums and community, has seen several mappers progress and eventually even get jobs in the industry.
It takes a lot of time, a lot of commitment, but if you want to throw away the chance of becomming one of the best mappers in the community then that is your choice.
Please don't come crying when your next map gets 2/10 again.

Aggressor
31st Aug 2003, 10:43 AM
Look Dagny, if a secretary couldn't type more than a line in one minute, she'd get fired instantly. Analogically, if you can't create more than couple poly shape in a day, you cannot count yourself as an expirienced mapper, making decent maps. Like Houry said, making few subtracting cubes may be an accomplishment for a total n00b, but it means absolutely nothing for an expert mapper. I was stunned to hear that Tonnberry only spent around 40 hours to build Alpu2, but now a beleive him - now that I get around UEd3 with ease, I can set a complex emitter in matter of minutes (or whatever).

So please stop complaining about our supposed impudence - you just have no credible measure to gauge your work yet. Simply said, we here map a lot faster than you do.

|ChAoS|Merlin
31st Aug 2003, 02:21 PM
I think I now understand how the Nalicity rating system really works. If an amature mapper of today can make a map thats a 10 on their standards, then it is far better than the most of the original maps from 3 yrs ago, taking this into account it would then be fair to say a simple arena style map like DM-Morbias which was made by a PRO mapper is probably about a 5 on their scale, this now means any map that rates over a 5 is really being considered proffessional quality work(unless you mean to say the original ut mappers are no longer pro's). So basically amature mappers are being rated on a scale from 1-5 and pros from 5-10, thinking of it that way I would say Dangy would be very happy to get a review rating as an amature mappper of a 2 out of 5.

PS. To the guy who made no sense at all, I did not say the UT2k3 maps had bad gameplay, I said the over use of detail and busy textures can cause many to disklike playing the game for long periods of time, the layout, flow, and playability is still great in most of the pro made maps IMO. Please ask Cliffy B himself if he starts with a theme or what he thinks will look cool, or if he actually thinks about the layout, flow, and game strategy and then adds a theme and coolness, If he tells you please let me know.

Zlal
31st Aug 2003, 03:38 PM
I think I now understand how the Nalicity rating system really works. If an amature mapper of today can make a map thats a 10 on their standards, then it is far better than the most of the original maps from 3 yrs ago, taking this into account it would then be fair to say a simple arena style map like DM-Morbias which was made by a PRO mapper is probably about a 5 on their scale, this now means any map that rates over a 5 is really being considered proffessional quality work(unless you mean to say the original ut mappers are no longer pro's). So basically amature mappers are being rated on a scale from 1-5 and pros from 5-10, thinking of it that way I would say Dangy would be very happy to get a review rating as an amature mappper of a 2 out of 5.

PS. To the guy who made no sense at all, I did not say the UT2k3 maps had bad gameplay, I said the over use of detail and busy textures can cause many to disklike playing the game for long periods of time, the layout, flow, and playability is still great in most of the pro made maps IMO. Please ask Cliffy B himself if he starts with a theme or what he thinks will look cool, or if he actually thinks about the layout, flow, and game strategy and then adds a theme and coolness, If he tells you please let me know.


Yes! You are reading and taking some of the posts into account, however :-

Morbias is not a 5 - that's possibly one of the worst of the original maps. I would give it a 2.

The average for epic maps would be a 5.5, I think. Anything above that isn't professional - hell, professionals arn't the best map makers. If anything, they are prone to mistakes, and have never made a map that is IMO worth a 9.

The system doesn't rely on being prefessional or not. It simply stands for the quality of a map.

A 2 is OK for a second map. Most good mappers start out with poor maps, and they learn from other, more experienced mappers how to improve. Everyone starts somewhere.

Zlal
31st Aug 2003, 03:43 PM
PS. To the guy who made no sense at all, I did not say the UT2k3 maps had bad gameplay, I said the over use of detail and busy textures can cause many to disklike playing the game for long periods of time, the layout, flow, and playability is still great in most of the pro made maps IMO. Please ask Cliffy B himself if he starts with a theme or what he thinks will look cool, or if he actually thinks about the layout, flow, and game strategy and then adds a theme and coolness, If he tells you please let me know.


Why would more details make people play less?
It increases the lifetime of maps. If i see a good playing map with bad visuals, and a good playing map with good visuals, I'd play the good looking one more simply because it's not a bland.

lophead
31st Aug 2003, 06:49 PM
I always am of the opinion that the best response to idiots is to not give them one, but ohwell...

http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~insite/insite_review.php?reviewid=39 (I couldn't find Ruiner's DM-SubtractedCube review as NC doesn't have the unreal reviews up anymore).

One thing that I am against is new mappers taking review sites as a cheap route for their beta testing and initial feedback instead of going through beta forums. At review sites, we want finished (and polished) creations.

Another thing, it's usually quite easy to gauge the range of scores your map is likely to fall into. Before you submit a map for review, check out where other maps fit in the scoring range and you'll be able to see what score you're likely to receive (not what you think its worth).

"try to be more objective and understanding of the fact that not everyone has countless hours to read up on how to use Ued properly, let alone spent the time needed to make a pro level map."

Try to understand that reviewers also don't have unlimited free time to provide criticism/feedback/encouragement to the schoolkid who asks a question in class because he wasn't listening when the lesson was being taught.

|ChAoS|Merlin
31st Aug 2003, 08:13 PM
So if I am understanding this right, you say a subtracted cube with mis aligned textures, no health, power ups, weapons or ammo, and no bot pathing is a 0, and DM-Morbias is a 2, but DM-Imago is a 7, your rating scale is really wacked and you dudes are a total joke.

{MS}GroundZero
31st Aug 2003, 09:23 PM
Man it took like an hour to read that thread.

Bot....nice pics
One I look at and think nice the other I look at and think "ewwww"
You guys figure out which one.

Dags, you have always been cool online and supported me in maps like DOM-Dragons (which I think is in the review que here)....heh I can't wait. You have done much for keeping the DOM community alive which we appreciate. I play on the lagboxes so I aint complaining there.

But, stick with you other map the "big@ss" one. While n00bish and a first map, you spent time in the UP forums getting feedback and working it through the beta stage to make it better. TOS just doesn't have it.

I will be there to lend feedback and support as you venture on to your next project which you are probably working on already. I dare say these guys here would also be willing to offer feedback to help through the beta stages.

My opinion is release maps for the community not for yourself. Considering both mapper and player and those that fall in both. I have a harddrive full of maps I have started or made that were novel, cool-IMO, or something weird I thought but I would never consider releasing them to be shredded as they would and should be. I might open them up and play them every now and then and go "cool" but I follow that statement with "not for public consumption".

Keep on mapping don't be discouraged but take a page out of the UP book as well as here at NC, put your stuff in beta, get feedback, get texture help, comments suggestions, etc etc etc and if it still sux don't release it.

Zarkazm
31st Aug 2003, 09:31 PM
So if I am understanding this right, you say a subtracted cube with mis aligned textures, no health, power ups, weapons or ammo, and no bot pathing is a 0, and DM-Morbias is a 2, but DM-Imago is a 7, your rating scale is really wacked and you dudes are a total joke.
Now that was well argued. We are left dumbfounded at your cunning.

But here's a tough one: Guess what a subtracted cube with 1 health pickup is? Yes, also a 0. Mind-boggling, ain't it?

Zlal
1st Sep 2003, 03:08 AM
So if I am understanding this right, you say a subtracted cube with mis aligned textures, no health, power ups, weapons or ammo, and no bot pathing is a 0, and DM-Morbias is a 2, but DM-Imago is a 7, your rating scale is really wacked and you dudes are a total joke.

When I play DM-Imago, I see a lot more than misaligned textures amd **** item placement.

Imago doesn't have that bad gameplay - hell, it's better than TOS for sure. It looks decent enough too - It's miles ahead of Dm-Morbias though. Anything from a 6 to a 7 would have been a correct score.

Our rating sclae is not whack - the thing I talked about is only my mental projection of it. Go to the site and find the scema page for the real one. My one isn't whack either - prehaps, just maybe, that your tastes hinder you scores for anything other than your genre of maps?

Dm-Imago took a lot more effort to make than TOS, that is negating the experience of the mappers.

Zlal
1st Sep 2003, 03:13 AM
You guys are totally right, this map is the worst amature map ever, I mean it really,really,really,really sucks bad.

Everyone please love me now. LOL.

I missed this... seems I didn't pick up on what kind of person I was attemtping to make see sense.

Hourences
1st Sep 2003, 06:45 AM
i dont have time to read everything since im at work, but at some of the things i did read, i simply
loooooooooool

have a nice day !

darth_weasel
1st Sep 2003, 12:47 PM
DM-Imago is a 7

i remember prophet saying in a review comment for imago that the score should be 50/100, not higher, soooo...

SkaarjMaster
1st Sep 2003, 04:26 PM
Is this thread still going on?

"try to be more objective and understanding of the fact that not everyone has countless hours to read up on how to use Ued properly, let alone spent the time needed to make a pro level map."

The effort really doesn't matter and no reviewer is going to consider this in their review. It's the final product that counts, whether you worked 1 hour or 200 hours on it!

Dagny, whether you are offended by these comments or not, a lot of the suggestions in this thread should be used for your next map. If you're really serious about mapping then drop the attitude and maybe these guys can actually help you. If you're completely turned off by the supposed attitude here, then try UnrealPlayground or another review site.

AMmayhem
1st Sep 2003, 08:47 PM
Have you guys read some of the posts in here? It's absolutey hilarious! :lol:

WHIPperSNAPper
2nd Sep 2003, 04:20 PM
Have you guys read some of the posts in here? It's absolutey hilarious! :lol:

This thread has been LMFAO! Here's one of my favorite quotes, courtesy of Mr. Prophet:

Don't you take a dump in a box and try to tell the Baker that you made a truffle.

darth_weasel
2nd Sep 2003, 04:42 PM
i almost pissed myself at the "tighter than a 2 year olds *****" comment in the review, i must say

Mister_Prophet
2nd Sep 2003, 04:57 PM
i can't say ass and bitch in my reviews without it getting censored, so I go around the rules and try to saying something crude without the use of profainity.

Working well so far, I hope Mass does not catch on...

MassChAoS
2nd Sep 2003, 08:20 PM
I let it ride because its not really profanity...

Mister_Prophet
2nd Sep 2003, 09:19 PM
that is why I love you Mass.

MassChAoS
3rd Sep 2003, 08:33 AM
run away... run away...

Zlal
3rd Sep 2003, 02:24 PM
Heh, so all is forgotten?

Meh. Zlal forever!

MarkVV
3rd Sep 2003, 02:48 PM
My map (note map not even maps yet)
stinks!
I have not learned to use teh tools yet..
I can only think about with a deep feeling of horror what it would be like to make a map as bad as mine and not realize how bad it is, to some how twist my own perception to such a warped view of my own acheivements as they compare to the achievments of others. It must be liek living in hell and not knowing it..
Or,
He could just be a reaction troll.

What does that have to do with the quote below?
The guys who made teh Unreal faimly of games Own. I just want to make one good map. But I would never presume to harshly judge their hard work, as it compares to mine. That's simply foolish.




and can i pls get an answer on
"the only people who say that you dont need graphics or that leet gameplay is running around in mini tubes seem to be people who have barely any experience with making games themself, and know absolutely nothing about the technical side, and related things,
yet they really think they are damn right, they think they are more right then all those pro's, they know more then for example cliffyb, etc etc,
what does this say about those people ? who do you think knows most, has most experience, and thus is most likely to have it correct ? who makes your games ? who creates your gameplay ?
your honestly arent going to say you know more then all those people do you ? then why do you think you are so terrrible right and they arent ?"
that ?
why is it that none of you people can answer this ?

|ChAoS|Merlin
3rd Sep 2003, 03:30 PM
My problem with the way Nalicity reviews maps is this:

To me a 0 map = Noob mapper

a 10 map = as good or better than the original maps

IMO this makes Dagnys map is about a 4, but to make fun of the guy because he actually thought he made a good map rather than simply tell him why it isnt that good and help him to improve his mapping skills or lack there of, I find it offensive that Mr. Prophet thinks its ok to paste a picture of himself making a gay comment to the mapper, rather than just realizing everyone has to build their way up to making great maps. One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch.

Funny the Prophet says "We are not better than you are" but calls himself Mr. Prophet and is refered to as Teh Prophet, feels he can put down and make fun of anyone he likes, and make statements like " This map really,really,really,really, sucks, or " High quality, Right" and so on.

From what I've read, I think rather than letting anyone submit maps for review, something should be said to let beginer mappers know not to submit a map unless they and my others feel it is atleast as good as the original maps. I wonder how Cliffy B would feel if he knew you guys thought Codex of Wisdom was a 5.5 and Imago a 7.

Mxtrmntr
3rd Sep 2003, 03:54 PM
Referring to the original maps/10 rating etc thing: Is it possible to mention "the original maps" as a whole concerning quality? I mean, a map like DM-Fetid or DM-Pyramid deserves a very low score, while Phobos and Codex are still very good after all these years. The NC scale has nothing to do with the original maps, they'd all fit into it at different places.

Mister_Prophet
3rd Sep 2003, 04:03 PM
My problem with the way Nalicity reviews maps is this

*sigh*

To me a 0 map = Noob mapper

To the accepted norm for NC community reviews, a 0 is a map that doesn't run or is a virtual waste of time (a subtracted box with one player start and that is all is an example of this)

a 10 map = as good or better than the original maps

Well to the rest of us, we understand that the stock maps are simply that, stock maps. I stopped playing them a long time ago, why? because there are better maps made for the game now. The average stock map would be worth around a 5 if I rated it, though a few are worse than that, and maybe 1 or 2 are better (codex was the only DM I continued to play from the stock selection for a long time after the game was released.

IMO this makes Dagnys map is about a 4

Fine.

but to make fun of the guy because he actually thought he made a good map rather than simply tell him why it isnt that good and help him to improve his mapping skills or lack there of

Yeah, we did that, he didn't want to listen and he, like you, assume it is flame.

I find it offensive that Mr. Prophet thinks its ok to paste a picture of himself making a gay comment to the mapper

You find it offensive? You? Who the hell are you to be offended by that pic? You are like a whiney religious bitch who protests whenever a show has gay kissing and you find it "offesive". Get the hell outta my face, YOU find it offensive. I bet if I ask Dagny he won't find it "offensive", you little cupcake Merlin.

rather than just realizing everyone has to build their way up to making great maps.

Yea because that concept is soooo lost to me right. No sh!t Mr. Wizard, thanks for your invaluable input. Everybody starts with a crappy map, but it's little puss-weasels like you who will jerk off every new mapper that comes your way because you are afraid of hurting their feelings. Some people can take criticism, others apparantly can't.


One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch.

Yep. I am a piece of rotten fruit laying back against a backdrop of rosey peaches right? Get your head out of the ground.

Funny the Prophet says "We are not better than you are" but calls himself Mr. Prophet and is refered to as Teh Prophet

Oh so I should drop the Mr. title and call myself by a cooler name, like a wizard or so? Would that make me seem less arrogant? You think I wear a crown and ceptor too? What really is "Funny" is that you are too stupid to notice a joke when it climbs up sticks its un-circumcized penis into your ear canal while chanting "The Juice Is Loose!".

feels he can put down and make fun of anyone he likes, and make statements like " This map really,really,really,really, sucks, or " High quality, Right" and so on.

Cry me a river sweetheart. Why am I always targeted for this crap? All of a sudden I'm the only guy in the community who tells it like it is? You have people all around you are doing it, why, OH WHY, do you feel the need to focus all your rage on me Mr. Wizard? Did I review a map of yours long ago and give you a bad score because it sucked and you are mad?


From what I've read

Give me a break, read it again punk.

I wonder how Cliffy B would feel if he knew you guys thought Codex of Wisdom was a 5.5 and Imago a 7.

Codex is an old map. Imago was reviewed along time ago. And you need to pick a better example to rant about. And only one reviewer gave Imago a 7. There are user comments on the map that differ considerably, mine especially.

Mister_Prophet
3rd Sep 2003, 04:13 PM
Ok Mr. Wizard, got a question for you, amazing if you answer it:

You say Dagny's map is a 4

You say Codex is a 10

What would you give Imago?

Zlal
3rd Sep 2003, 04:37 PM
My problem with the way Nalicity reviews maps is this:

To me a 0 map = Noob mapper

a 10 map = as good or better than the original maps

IMO this makes Dagnys map is about a 4, but to make fun of the guy because he actually thought he made a good map rather than simply tell him why it isnt that good and help him to improve his mapping skills or lack there of, I find it offensive that Mr. Prophet thinks its ok to paste a picture of himself making a gay comment to the mapper, rather than just realizing everyone has to build their way up to making great maps. One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch.

Funny the Prophet says "We are not better than you are" but calls himself Mr. Prophet and is refered to as Teh Prophet, feels he can put down and make fun of anyone he likes, and make statements like " This map really,really,really,really, sucks, or " High quality, Right" and so on.

From what I've read, I think rather than letting anyone submit maps for review, something should be said to let beginer mappers know not to submit a map unless they and my others feel it is atleast as good as the original maps. I wonder how Cliffy B would feel if he knew you guys thought Codex of Wisdom was a 5.5 and Imago a 7.

Notice the word average.

Codex -was- roughly a 7 -back- then. Nowadays, it would be given a 5, probably. Imago was given a 7. Nowadays, it would be given a 5-7

The thing is, codex was made when maps had to be of a certain polycount. Imago had less limitation and thruss is a better map visually than codex. Codex has better gameplay though.

Also, lay off the prophet. I can bitch just as well as he can.
The truth is, he has earnt that kind of respect, and rightly so. You and about three other sore losers can say "He is a ****wipe" all you like, but the fact is that he is a decent mapper, and a funny, sick, pervert ;)

|ChAoS|Merlin
3rd Sep 2003, 05:09 PM
Well in reply to your questions Prophet, #1 yes I did do a map which you gave a low score, but that was'nt the problem it deserved a low score, what it did'nt deserver was your gay style of humor, " This map scares teh Prophet." #2 if you consider Codex a 10 then as I have commented on your map Imago it is a 7 IMO really not a bad map at all, but If you think Codex is a 5, well then I would have to revise the rating on Imago and call it a 3. As far as not all the original maps being 10's that is BS, even if you dont like Fetid it was still considered a good enough map to be included in the game with all the others, Take some advice from your own Hourence dude and dont try to act as if you know more than the game makers themselves.

PS, the Merlin which I take my nick from is much more than a Wizard, he is a Prince of Amber and a Lord of Chaos. Read the Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny you may enjoy them.

darth_weasel
3rd Sep 2003, 05:37 PM
even if you dont like Fetid it was still considered a good enough map to be included in the game with all the others

Fetid and Pyramid weren't part of the tournament ladder though, so obviously they didnt think they were good as the rest

OO7MIKE
3rd Sep 2003, 05:43 PM
LOL guys

The map looks like crap. It might have some redeeming gameplay qualities...but it does look like crap.
I hope by now he migh have caught on not to say things about his own map that are not true. "high quality"
Give me a break.


http://home.comcast.net/~oo7mike/Mod/TehUgly.jpg

Zlal
3rd Sep 2003, 06:13 PM
Well in reply to your questions Prophet, #1 yes I did do a map which you gave a low score, but that was'nt the problem it deserved a low score, what it did'nt deserver was your gay style of humor, " This map scares teh Prophet." #2 if you consider Codex a 10 then as I have commented on your map Imago it is a 7 IMO really not a bad map at all, but If you think Codex is a 5, well then I would have to revise the rating on Imago and call it a 3. As far as not all the original maps being 10's that is BS, even if you dont like Fetid it was still considered a good enough map to be included in the game with all the others, Take some advice from your own Hourence dude and dont try to act as if you know more than the game makers themselves.

PS, the Merlin which I take my nick from is much more than a Wizard, he is a Prince of Amber and a Lord of Chaos. Read the Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny you may enjoy them.

You are the most arrogant ****-stuck-in-eyes poster I've ever had the displeasure of viewing posts of.

Codex is not a 10. We have said that already. Really, we have. Seriously. Yes. Prehaps if I repete myself, i won#'t have to post three ****ing times.

So, Tubes of **** is a 4, yet imago is a three?
How?
The gameplay is about the same, if you look at it without saying "OMFG I LOVE THEM SPAM MAPS!"
Imago looks better than tos too.
The difference is like looking at your granmother and then looking at -insert female goddes-

None of the original maps are 10. That is utter BS. Yes, BS yourself too. In no way are they 100% perfect. I mean, ffs, play morbias. ****. Ghey, simple, stupid gameplay, and it's looks might as well be TOS style. Look at... all the maps. I could find a error or a gameplay problem in nearly all.
I could ask hour or another one of the mappers at Nalicity who can get jobs as level developers, and probably know CliffyB, if they think that the original maps are 10s.

No. They are 5's, on average. And read that word this time, please. Prehaps wipe the crap from your face first :/

Btw, There are people out there are map better than the pros. Thats why the oringinals are worth 5's - because better maps have been made.


Also, there are people who know the game better than the makers. It is possible. I mean, game developers are onlu human, after all.
And you can argue all you want - I shall give proof if needed. I can link to maps and mods that outshine the original game.

FFS, READ IT, DON'T MAKE ME REPETE MYSELF.

Zlal
3rd Sep 2003, 06:15 PM
Oh, and just in case you didn't read much of that, Hourences IS a pro mapper.

darth_weasel
3rd Sep 2003, 06:18 PM
http://home.comcast.net/~oo7mike/Mod/TehUgly.jpg

that "pretty" shot isnt very pretty though :/ still a hell of an improvement over tubes of spam :)

OO7MIKE
3rd Sep 2003, 06:51 PM
LOL
That was the point. Slightly more complex geometry in an unfinished map.
186 poly count for that shot.

I think the point that is being missed here is that Taggart tried to oversell his map. It obviously doesn't stand to much of his claims. Using extreme words to describe his map is an overkill. It will definately get you some attention.........but you already know that. Enjoy it.

Zarkazm
3rd Sep 2003, 07:17 PM
To me a 0 map = Noob mapper

a 10 map = as good or better than the original maps
On NC, 0 means "total crap, doesn't deserve being called a map" and 10 means "perfect, everyone loves it."
That is why reviewers can't give a 10. The 10 is so special that it's practically impossible to score. It's an ideal.


what it did'nt deserver was your gay style of humor, " This map scares teh Prophet."
Haha. I visit NC because it amuses me, and this gay humour is one of the reasons.


As far as not all the original maps being 10's that is BS
No it isn't, you gross assumption that the makers consider all stock maps perfect is.


[/QUOTE]PS, the Merlin which I take my nick from is much more than a Wizard, he is a Prince of Amber and a Lord of Chaos. Read the Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny you may enjoy them. [/QUOTE]
So basically you are telling us that you are in fact even more arrogant than "Teh Prophet" as you obviously care very much that even we aknowledge the true greatness behind your nickname. Not just some stupid wizard, nooo, the Prince of Amber (weeee!!) and Lord of Chaos (!!!).

Nebel
3rd Sep 2003, 10:16 PM
High quality (http://nalicity.beyondunreal.com/map_hub.php?mid=783).

Balton
4th Sep 2003, 05:23 AM
As far as not all the original maps being 10's that is BS, even if you dont like Fetid it was still considered a good enough map to be included in the game with all the others, Take some advice from your own Hourence dude and dont try to act as if you know more than the game makers themselves.

PS, the Merlin which I take my nick from is much more than a Wizard, he is a Prince of Amber and a Lord of Chaos. Read the Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny you may enjoy them.

lol,
fetid, pyramid and a bunch of other awesomely bad maps were only included because there was still some space on the ut cd left.

about your nick: people like you mke my live tougher than it should be. if I ever become dictator I am gonna ban all disney movies including some magician "merlin". why not call yourself Houdini at least?
the chances of tumbleweed like sakhanov to assume that I am account fakeing here is also pretty high so please give your self another nick like ****tymaps.inc or so.

Mxtrmntr
4th Sep 2003, 05:29 AM
if I ever become dictator I am gonna ban all disney movies including some magician "merlin".

Boo! Die Hexe und der Zauberer owned!

(Well, ahem, kinda, or so. Anyway, of course, it's not like Disney invented the guy ;) )

Balton
4th Sep 2003, 05:32 AM
Boo! Die Hexe und der Zauberer owned!

(Well, ahem, kinda, or so. Anyway, of course, it's not like Disney invented the guy ;) )
but disney monopolized and commercialized him!

|ChAoS|Merlin
4th Sep 2003, 08:49 AM
"On NC, 0 means "total crap, doesn't deserve being called a map" and 10 means "perfect, everyone loves it."

Well the second most played map on the net is still Morbias I belive but I guess people dont love the the map as you call it a 2.

Haha. I visit NC because it amuses me, and this gay humour is one of the reasons.

Yes and in many of the user comments you will find alot of humor, but a reviewer should stay objective in his review of a map IMO.

Codex is not a 10. We have said that already. Really, we have. Seriously.

"We are not better than tho art" LOL.

PS, the Merlin which I take my nick from is much more than a Wizard, he is a Prince of Amber and a Lord of Chaos. Read the Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny you may enjoy them.So basically you are telling us that you are in fact even more arrogant than "Teh Prophet" as you obviously care very much that even we aknowledge the true greatness behind your nickname. Not just some stupid wizard, nooo, the Prince of Amber (weeee!!) and Lord of Chaos (!!!).

For all you knew, Merlin was my real name but you assumed that I was claiming to be the famous wizard Merlin, so I felt the need to correct you, OMG we were actually wrong about something imagine that.

[b]Btw, There are people out there are map better than the pros. Thats why the oringinals are worth 5's - because better maps have been made.

Ok God has spoken, he just does'nt know how to use the English language properly. LOL

about your nick: people like you mke my live tougher than it should be. if I ever become dictator I am gonna ban all disney movies including some magician "merlin". why not call yourself Houdini at least?
the chances of tumbleweed like sakhanov to assume that I am account fakeing here is also pretty high so please give your self another nick like ****tymaps.inc or so.

Did any of you finish High school, no wait your all 12. Learn how to spell and speak properly.

PS, Where are all these better maps and why are the originals still being played to hell and gone, Why I will tell you, because a fancied up Deck 16 is still Deck 16, and so on. Get a clue that the game is what makes UT great not the looks of a map. The standard for UT maps should not be raised just because UT2k3 is out, many people still have older slower Pc's and most of your 8-9-10 maps would'nt even run on them. Leave the Pretty maps to 2k3, and make the ones that are fun to play for UT.

Oh and Balton, "Kiss my Grits"

Mister_Prophet
4th Sep 2003, 10:05 AM
Well the second most played map on the net is still Morbias I belive but I guess people dont love the the map as you call it a 2.

I don't care what people play the most, most people are stupid. That is why there are 100 servers running CTF-AndAction and less than that running a good map like DM-Amon or so. The reason the major stock maps still get server time is because stock maps are what ships with the game. Everyone has them already and they are the most likely played due to the availablity and the fact that they run even on the lower spec systems. That isn't a quality selection, that is lack of options.

Yes and in many of the user comments you will find alot of humor, but a reviewer should stay objective in his review of a map IMO.

If you are basing your opinion of me based on two reviews (two maps that obviously sucked) then you are a complete tool. I am an objective reviewer, when being objective means something. I was objective in my review of Dagny's map.

"We are not better than tho art" LOL.

Yes. lol indeed. You really need to get off your ghey fagtard server and spend some real time with the real community.

Ok God has spoken, he just does'nt know how to use the English language properly. LOL

Once again you make yourself to seem more of a predictable ass-clown. Balton, and a number of the people here who you claim to have better English skills than, aren't of native English-speaking decent. Oh, that just made you seem like a dipshiit didn't it!? When someone is losing an arguement online, as you clearly are, they stop debating the topic at hand and just resort to pointing out grammar flops. Congradulations Merlin, you have just jumped the shark.

Did any of you finish High school, no wait your all 12. Learn how to spell and speak properly.

Welcome to the internet little boy, a "world-wide" web.

PS, Where are all these better maps and why are the originals still being played to hell and gone, Why I will tell you

No need, we already told you why.

Get a clue that the game is what makes UT great not the looks of a map.

Sure, like I'm going to listen to the author of DM-1on1-Turbine. You should be ashamed of yourself...claiming to cherish this game so much and then inflicting the world with that map. Ouch baby, very ouch.

The standard for UT maps should not be raised just because UT2k3 is out

*Sigh* They aren't raised because 2k3 is out, farkwad. 2k3 maps are handled differently because they are from a different game. The bar has been raised for UT the same way it has been raised for the last 2-3 years. Your still living in 1999. Welcome to the 21rst century of UT gaming.

many people still have older slower Pc's and most of your 8-9-10 maps would'nt even run on them.

Yeah we know, we tell them that, that is why playability is a factor in our reviews. And it isn't our fault some people don't upgrade their computers. Gaming doesn't wait because a few ass-holes can't afford to get a newer PC.

Leave the Pretty maps to 2k3, and make the ones that are fun to play for UT.

Until you either make a map worthy of our time or get a clue about how this game was meant to be played, you don't get to give any advice.

Mister_Prophet
4th Sep 2003, 10:09 AM
Ohhhh, looking through my review list I see that this merlin guy is infact Ghostwheel, the author of the map that I said "Scares the Prophet". That map is DM-1on1-Turbine.

Hourences
4th Sep 2003, 10:48 AM
-we rate quality not popularity
-pls show me some stats where it shows morbias is the second most played map, i would at least expect sh1t deck16
-we are all around 20
-you dont even know a second language prolly, so whats the prob if we make some typpos and stuff at times ? at least better as nothing, hint
-my counsillors and advisers say to me that markusvv misunderstood me, so what exactly did you mean ?:P
-this game and engine is 5-6 years old, means 98 % of the people can run ANY map ny now, no one has a 5 year old pc anymore

Hourences
4th Sep 2003, 10:51 AM
oh and the best thing, i find it amusing that some of your arguments seem to start changing, weakening, or getting weirder, whats the mather ?:)

|ChAoS|Merlin
4th Sep 2003, 11:21 AM
Well the dude said a 10 map was one people loved, so I guess Deck 16 is a 10 even tho it is full of problems and far from perfect, and BTW I did not do Frogtownstump, the map you slammed of mine was 1v1 Turbine, if you want to see one of my better attemps ( keep in mind I still only know about 1/2 of what you can do with Ued. Altho that wont matter to you I'm sure.) Checkout DM-Duel Drive, or DM-Reconship-XL7 both about 6's IMO, maybe 1.5's or even a whooping 2 for you guys.

Mister_Prophet
4th Sep 2003, 11:51 AM
Well the dude said a 10 map was one people loved, so I guess Deck 16 is a 10 even tho it is full of problems and far from perfect

Stop twisting crap around and pay attention. He was referring to the NC rating of a 10, which pertains to the myth of the perfect map. Every map has flaws and it would be arrogant to presume a certain map be a 10, that is why us reviewers are given a tally from 0-9.

And no, I won't look at your other maps. You are too much of a bitch for me to waste any more time reviewing your stuff. Maybe you can have someone else review it, and when they tell you the same stuff I told you, maybe then you'll realize that it isn't just me.

Zlal
4th Sep 2003, 12:35 PM
[QUOTE=|ChAoS|Merlin]

Well the second most played map on the net is still Morbias I belive but I guess people dont love the the map as you call it a 2.

[B]The second most played map is Morbias? I doubt that. Codex, phobos and deck are all played a lot - I would have though morbias was below them three.

Yes and in many of the user comments you will find alot of humor, but a reviewer should stay objective in his review of a map IMO.

It's hard to when you get faced with a bad map

For all you knew, Merlin was my real name but you assumed that I was claiming to be the famous wizard Merlin, so I felt the need to correct you, OMG we were actually wrong about something imagine that.

That isn't different from someone calling themselves the prophet and then being acused of being arrogant because of the name.



Ok God has spoken, he just does'nt know how to use the English language properly. LOL

Might want to check your own grammar first.... "does'nt" = wrong. "Doesn't" = right

Oh, and "OFMEERMERM!!!!! TTYPOO!!!! HE IS JUST TAH EHH!!!! FFGaG!"

TBH, that is one of the most idiot arguements ever. I am typing these fast, so I am bound to make a mistake or two. Making a huge deal out of it is something someone with a real "gay sense of humour" would do.


Did any of you finish High school, no wait your all 12. Learn how to spell and speak properly.

He is german.
Btw, it's you're, not your. Also, to be blunt, your use of words is pretty poor.

PS, Where are all these better maps and why are the originals still being played to hell and gone, Why I will tell you, because a fancied up Deck 16 is still Deck 16, and so on. Get a clue that the game is what makes UT great not the looks of a map. The standard for UT maps should not be raised just because UT2k3 is out, many people still have older slower Pc's and most of your 8-9-10 maps would'nt even run on them. Leave the Pretty maps to 2k3, and make the ones that are fun to play for UT.

Want to know why? Because 90% of online players are not part of the community. The 10% that are play the maps, or at least look out for them.
The standard isn't raised because ut2003 is out.
Most people have good PCs now.
Ut2003 maps look crap, even with the added polys.
And why can't UT maps look good? Talk about rasing the standards because of ut2003, i think you are doing that yourself.
UT maps can look excellant - so why shouldn't they? UT2003 maps can play well - so why should they? There is no difference.

Bot_40
4th Sep 2003, 12:56 PM
|Fag|Merlin...The Sims is the best selling game series of all time.
hmm, I guess that makes it a perfect 10/10 for you then. Have fun and enjoy :con:

Twrecks
4th Sep 2003, 03:55 PM
Checkout DM-Duel Drive, or DM-Reconship-XL7 both about 6's IMO, maybe 1.5's or even a whooping 2 for you guys.

I've looked at Duel drive and have a partial review on my HD. prolly 3~4 range max. But WTF would I know :p

Zarkazm
4th Sep 2003, 04:19 PM
For all you knew, Merlin was my real name but you assumed that I was claiming to be the famous wizard Merlin, so I felt the need to correct you, OMG we were actually wrong about something imagine that.
No I didn't. I leave the outragous assumptions to you. I didn't think about your nickname at all until you lectured us about it. You could call yourself "MyPenisIsTwiceTheSizeOfYours" for all I care.

|ChAoS|Merlin
4th Sep 2003, 05:11 PM
What is it with you guys? I say something about a dudes grammer and you flame me because he is German, but you say nothing to him for flaming me about a Nick, He suggested I call myself ****mapper or something like that, so I guess that means he has huge Balls.(Balton)

BTW, Prophet I never requested any one of my maps be reviewed, other people did, people I dont even know, and yes please if my other maps do get reviewed I hope it is by someone other than you, of the 2 you reviewed, 1 you just plain made fun of which I guess is your way, the other I have to say was not to bad but you still gave it a below par score, the 3rd map which was reviewed by someone else actually was givin a 3.5 which I tought was fair, but what was even better was the guy spoke to me as an equal who was not the best mapper in the world but atleast human.

Oh I also find it funny that all maps should be high quality now because nobody has a 5yr old Pc, but on the other hand almost everyone has Highspeed internet access now and still the way better custom maps do not dominate the net, hmmm maybe its because the gameplay of the originals is as good or better than almost any custom map ever made.

Anyway as I can see I am nothing but a FAG I will make this my last post. Peace out all.

PS, Twrecks I will be happy with any review and score you give my map as long as it doesn't(is that better) start out "This map scares the Twrecks" Thank you in advance.

Mister_Prophet
4th Sep 2003, 06:14 PM
What is it with you guys? I say something about a dudes grammer and you flame me because he is German[B]

Flame? are you kidding? I mean, is that seriously what you are posting this far along into the threa? wha wha frickity wha wha *sob*?

[B] but you say nothing to him for flaming me about a Nick.

Oh for craps sake, eat the Prophet's awesome sh!t. The first thing you did when you posted in this thread was call me a stupid ass-hole and slag NC as a BS reviewing site, with nothing to back it up of course, and now...you have the sense to lecture us about defending you against Balton's comment? STFU. You honestly think anyone on this site is on your side? Look around, I don't even think Dagny is reading this thread anymore.




BTW, Prophet I never requested any one of my maps be reviewed, other people did, people I dont even know

I reviewed your last map like in frikin April, who cares?

and yes please if my other maps do get reviewed I hope it is by someone other than you, of the 2 you reviewed, 1 you just plain made fun of which I guess is your way, the other I have to say was not to bad but you still gave it a below par score

1on1-Turbine was a crap map, I could have been alot meaner, but I actually pointed out why I thought it sucked, using solid technical references displaying why the map was scientifically full of suck.


the 3rd map which was reviewed by someone else actually was givin a 3.5 which I tought was fair

Of course it was fair, I didn't review it ;)

but what was even better was the guy spoke to me as an equal who was not the best mapper in the world but atleast human.

Does this go back to the whole "Prophet is an arrogant pri<k" scenario?

You are that guy in the desert, remember?

Oh I also find it funny that all maps should be high quality now because nobody has a 5yr old Pc, but on the other hand almost everyone has Highspeed internet access now and still the way better custom maps do not dominate the net, hmmm maybe its because the gameplay of the originals is as good or better than almost any custom map ever made.

I find it funny that you are still posting. Realize you have been owned and give up.

Anyway as I can see I am nothing but a FAG

Fag? I don't care if you are gay, but you are an annoying little punk.

I will make this my last post.

I wish upon a star....

PS, Twrecks I will be happy with any review and score you give my map as long as it doesn't(is that better) start out "This map scares the Twrecks" Thank you in advance.

Yea Twrecks, if you say "the" before your name, it implies you are a arrogant fu<kweasel, so be careful when typing your review.

|ChAoS|Merlin
4th Sep 2003, 07:02 PM
Ok one more, If anyone actually reads your post and they dont think you come of as an arrogant a-hole then they are as stupid as you are.

Fag? I don't care if you are gay, but you are an annoying little punk.


I am neither little or a punk, loser, you were crapping yellow when I was in the navy, and if you ever want to meet face to face we will see who the punk is, hide behind your little following of sheep and act like a big man, in reality I'm sure with out a doubt you are a snot nosed little geek who would cry for your mommy if you ever met me.

Zarkazm
4th Sep 2003, 08:13 PM
Anyway as I can see I am nothing but a FAG I will make this my last post.
You nearly made it.

Mister_Prophet
4th Sep 2003, 08:19 PM
I should have made a bet, I may have won some gas money.

oh yea, you'd love to meet me in real life Merlin;) Tough sh!t Navy man right? Funny how all these little bastards always end up being in the military or some guy who works out or knows kung-fu or something. Riight "Merlin":)

LoserMan
4th Sep 2003, 08:22 PM
So, as hilarious as this thread is...

Perhaps it's time to give up; the n00bs don't want to be educated, they want to be dillholes.

Twrecks
4th Sep 2003, 10:34 PM
THREAD CLOSED