Hooray for US Supreme Court

[desperado]

Coming as a breaking news at the moment from CNN

In second decision, U.S. Supreme Court rules point system which considers race as factor in University of Michigan undergraduate admissions is unconstitutional. Full story soon.

Small victory over PC crap.

[Crazy_Ivan]

copy-paste BBC article with messy layout

Mixed ruling on affirmative action


A majority of judges supported the university law school's system
The US Supreme Court has struck down a university admissions process which favoured ethnic minority candidates.
By a majority of six to three, the judges ruled that the University of Michigan's policy of awarding applicants from ethnic minorities extra points when deciding undergraduate places was unconstitutional.

However, the court backed by five votes to four the right of the university's graduate law school to take race into account when deciding whether or not to allocate a student place.

Correspondents say the case is a partial victory for affirmative action supporters, in that the general principle of favouring ethnic minority candidates has not been outlawed.

The rulings centred on a case brought by three white students whose applications for places at the university - one of them in the graduate law school - were turned down.

The students - who were backed by US President George W Bush - said the decisions to reject them amounted to illegal discrimination, and that if they had been members of a minority group they would have been accepted.

'Compelling interest'

In ruling against the university's points system, the judges decided that it was, in effect, a racial quota system under which a certain number of places were set aside by the university for minority candidates, and was therefore unconstitutional.

In the other case, Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor sided with the court's more liberal justices to decide in favour of the graduate law school's version of affirmative action.

She said the US constitution "does not prohibit the law school's narrowly tailored use of race in admissions decisions to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body".

The US Government's chief law officer, Solicitor General Ted Olson, had appeared in court to support the students' case and condemn the Michigan admissions plan as unconstitutional.

President Bush has described affirmative action as resembling "quota systems that... exclude people from higher education... are divisive, unfair and impossible to square with the constitution".

Quotas ruled illegal

Support for the university came from several civil liberties organisations and lawyers, including the American Bar Association.

The case was the most recent examination of US race relations since the court's decision in the Bakke versus Board of Regents case in 1978.

That case was brought by a white student, Allen Bakke, who argued that he had been passed over by the University of California at Davis medical school in favour of minority candidates.

In that instance, racial quotas were struck down, but universities were still permitted to consider race as a factor in admissions.

In other US Supreme Court rulings on Monday:


A California state law designed to help Holocaust survivors collect on insurance policies from Nazi-era Europe was struck down

A law requiring the nation's public libraries to filter out internet pornography was upheld, with judges ruling it did not violate free-speech rights

[Sam_The_Man]

She said the US constitution "does not prohibit the law school's narrowly tailored use of race in admissions decisions to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body".

I still don't understand why a 'diverse student body' (meaning 'more ethnic minorities') is so important. Aren't we all supposed to be colour-blind now?

I especially don't see where the educational benefits come from. Particularly as students selected by their race are, naturally, going to be stupider than those selected on academic merit. I'd've thought that studying with your equals would be more educational.

[namu]

Considering that there's more genetic diversity in half a dozen randomly chosen chimps than there is in all mankind, discriminating against or for any "race" is racist and isn't supported by any scientific or rational argument.

[Zarkazm]

Considering that there's more genetic diversity in half a dozen randomly chosen chimps than there is in all mankind, discriminating against or for any "race" is racist and isn't supported by any scientific or rational argument.
Heh, did you read about it recently too? I found that very interesting indeed. When Voyager introduced a black Vulcan I was actually annoyed. Now it seems it'd be more "realistic" if there were blue Vulcans too. ;)

[namu]

I also read about the Toba supervolcano, and the persistence of lactase mutation. Adding the two brings a nice explanation for the Deluge and why mankind has so little genetic diversity :D

[W0RF]

Considering that there's more genetic diversity in half a dozen randomly chosen chimps than there is in all mankind, discriminating against or for any "race" is racist and isn't supported by any scientific or rational argument.

Name one political decision that was based on a scientific or rational argument. :D :p

[Vers Vlees]

NEVER EVER FORGET why this system was incopertated. For over 400 years you excluded the minoritys especially the black out of your higher society and educational system. This is a compensation. To mix up your segregated soceity.
omg America land of the free and brave pfffft

[KJAX]

I still don't understand why a 'diverse student body' (meaning 'more ethnic minorities') is so important. Aren't we all supposed to be colour-blind now?

I especially don't see where the educational benefits come from. Particularly as students selected by their race are, naturally, going to be stupider than those selected on academic merit. I'd've thought that studying with your equals would be more educational.

Hello Sam.

First of all, I noticed that you live in England so this simply tells me you may not be fully aware of the U.S. political climate back in the Civil Rights Era that produced affirmative action anyway. On the other hand, you may only be partially aware of the climate.

Where do the educational benefits come from? Again, as David Souter pointed out, a quality education in the classrom is based on the diverse view points that its students are contributing. The idea, then, is that you need Blacks, Latinos, Native American, etc. in the college classroom contributing their viewpoints. Furthermore, the standard of the current education system do not take into account multiple domains of intelligence that would otherwise should on a typical college entrance exam that many members of these groups are just as intelligent as those in the majority group.

[W0RF]

NEVER EVER FORGET why this system was incopertated. For over 400 years you excluded the minoritys especially the black out of your higher society and educational system. This is a compensation. To mix up your segregated soceity.
omg America land of the free and brave pfffft

So because I'm white, I deserve to be placed at a deliberate disadvantage, for reasons that have nothing to do with my existence? How is that any less racist than substituting "black" for "white"?

[KJAX]

So because I'm white, I deserve to be placed at a deliberate disadvantage, for reasons that have nothing to do with my existence? How is that any less racist than substituting "black" for "white"?


Ahem. I believe the point of the policy is that because you are white that you are not at a disadvantage...or at the very least, the disadvantage isn't as great with you as it is with racial minorities.

[Vers Vlees]

Ahem. I believe the point of the policy is that because you are white that you are not at a disadvantage...or at the very least, the disadvantage isn't as great with you as it is with racial minorities.

w3rd you just beat me to it.

[MetalMickey]

So because I'm white, I deserve to be placed at a deliberate disadvantage, for reasons that have nothing to do with my existence? How is that any less racist than substituting "black" for "white"?

You seem to forget the imbalance that currently exists between minorities in education and whites in education. If the numbers were anything even approaching fair then your point would be a fair one. These policies, flawed as they are, seek to redress the imbalances that exist.

Anyway, what do people suggest as alternatives to these policies? Or are people happy to have blacks and hispanics outside higher education?

[UY]

The average IQ of blacks compared to whites on a standarized test is 10-15% lower. Does that mean they are inherently less gifted in the mental dept. than whites? I dont think so. Studies suggest their lower scores are mainly attributed to environmental conditions and there is strong evidence to support that....hence the programs designed with intent to offset these envornmental disadvantages.

Here is an interesting link to describe it further

http://www3.azwestern.edu/psy/dgershaw/lol/RaceIQ.html


The EO program isnt perfect but it is an effort to attempt to allow a person to excel despite their envirnmental handicap..if it applies...and it doesnt in all cases..but many.

A firm understanding of the intent of the program helps when trying to make sesne out of what appears to be reverse rascism on the surface...and is to some extent. I used to be very much against these programs until I probed into them...curious as to how racism was suppose to correct racisim.

From the article...

"One environmental theory is that blacks in America are in a social position similar to other caste-like minorities in the world – the Harijans (untouchables) of India, the Maoris of New Zealand and the Burakumi of Japan. The IQ differences between the deprived groups and the privileged groups in each country are about the same as the difference between blacks and whites in this country. The Burakumi are particularly interesting. In 1871, they were freed from their lowly status – due to their despised work as tanners – but they are still treated as outcasts in Japan. However, when the Burakumi immigrate to America, their children are treated as any other Japanese in the United States. Here the Burakumi childre[bdo as well on IQ tests and in school as other Japanese-Americans."

[W0RF]

Ahem. I believe the point of the policy is that because you are white that you are not at a disadvantage...or at the very least, the disadvantage isn't as great with you as it is with racial minorities.
Explain to me why this means I should be penalized for things beyond my capacity to control them, after a quarter century of keeping my head down and working my ass off to qualify for a certain job.

I don't disagree with racial disparity, but I think the problem should be corrected, not glossed over with a Harrison Bergeron mentality.

[MetalMickey]

but I think the problem should be corrected

How?

[KJAX]

Explain to me why this means I should be penalized for things beyond my capacity to control them, after a quarter century of keeping my head down and working my ass off to qualify for a certain job.

I don't disagree with racial disparity, but I think the problem should be corrected, not glossed over with a Harrison Bergeron mentality.

WORF, I can honestly say I can't explain it to you. I really don't know you or your experience well enough. All I can truly say is that if you are, in fact, White, that the disadvantage here in the U.S. is not as great for you as it is for a Black or Hispanic who is your same age, has the same SES, and has worked as hard as you.

Yes, it sucks that you feel that you are penalized for the wrongs that occurred generations ago but there is currently little or no solutions to what affirmative action offers.

[Sam_The_Man]

First of all, I noticed that you live in England so this simply tells me you may not be fully aware of the U.S. political climate back in the Civil Rights Era that produced affirmative action anyway. On the other hand, you may only be partially aware of the climate.

I'm aware of it. I think the 'reparation' idea is a stupid reason to exclude intelligent people from higher education on racial grounds.

Where do the educational benefits come from? Again, as David Souter pointed out, a quality education in the classrom is based on the diverse view points that its students are contributing. The idea, then, is that you need Blacks, Latinos, Native American, etc. in the college classroom contributing their viewpoints.

If you're doing a Political Science course, or History, or something along those lines, maybe. I have no idea what relevance it has if I'm doing, say, Mathematics. And that's without even questioning your assumption that the opinions one holds depends on one's race.

Furthermore, the standard of the current education system do not take into account multiple domains of intelligence that would otherwise should on a typical college entrance exam that many members of these groups are just as intelligent as those in the majority group.

Well, I don't know about the entrance exams, since we don't have them in Britain (or at least, not in any of the universities I applied to). But I don't think that racial quotas are a good way to fix this perceived problem.

Anyway, what do people suggest as alternatives to these policies? Or are people happy to have blacks and hispanics outside higher education?

I'm not happy to have blacks and Hispanics outside higher education, that should go without saying. But I'm certainly even less happy to have intelligent people outside higher education.

Alternatives? How about getting ethnic communities to produce people that can actually pass the tests on their own merits? Meaning less crime, more school attendance, destroying the culture that views intelligence as a bad thing, etc. How do you do that? Search me, and search pretty much every government, ever.

*edit* By the way, I wonder what happened to all those people that were going on about 'damn legislating from the bench' in the homosexuality thread?

[KJAX]

Alternatives? How about getting ethnic communities to produce people that can actually pass the tests on their own merits? Meaning less crime, more school attendance, destroying the culture that views intelligence as a bad thing, etc. How do you do that? Search me, and search pretty much every government, ever.


You make an excellent point here. Hispanic and Black communities do not have a high regard for intelligence in their cultures. However, the problems you speak of are more of a result of the lack of quality education being provided to people in the urban communities.

Crime in these communities is a result of the lack of jobs and the perception that making money via crime is easier that going to school and getting degree after degree in order to earn the same money. And remember, one has to have money, borrow the money, or have the grades to get the money in order to have an education beyond high school. Destroying the culture with an ill view of intelligence means providing that culture with the economic and educational means of lifting itself from the sensationalism of the crime life.

Is affirmative action a reparation? Yes and no. Yes, because it does provide compensation for the racial ills of the past. No, because ultimately, even affirmative action policies have standards that students must follow or be kicked out of college. Affrimative action isn't a free pass. The minorities in college under these policies do have to make the grade or be kicked out. What affirmative action ultimately does is provide minorities with a chance.

[UY]

People, we're not going to come up with a quick fix for a problem thats been part of our society for many , many, many years. On the positive...we do recognize that it "is" a problem and are taking different steps to get it all in harmony. It will take yet more time.

In the interim, both whites and blacks...and other minorites will continue to see unfair situations. Whats important is to keep moving in the right direction....and try to have patience with the setbacks. All people are created, in their humanity, equal by God. It is our fault certain races are held back by discrimination due to color of skin or preconceived notions. Only ours.

[KJAX]

People, we're not going to come up with a quick fix for a problem thats been part of our society for many , many, many years. On the positive...we do recognize that it "is" a problem and are taking different steps to get it all in harmony. It will take yet more time.

In the interim, both whites and blacks...and other minorites will continue to see unfair situations. Whats important is to keep moving in the right direction....and try to have patience with the setbacks. All people are created, in their humanity, equal by God. It is our fault certain races are held back by discrimination due to color of skin or preconceived notions. Only ours.

I totally agree, Preacher. But I also believe that dialogue on the issues is always a good thing. And although I don't agree with all the opinions that have been stated here, I do respect the way they have been stated and for that, I thank all the posters here in the thread.

[Techno JF]

It raises some other interesting issues at least. I'm a white American, but with traces of American Indian ancestry. Before I graduated from high school, I spoke with counselors at the college I would be attending, and I discovered that I could practically triple my scholarship money if I filled out a few forms for extra scholarships for American Indians.

In the end, I intentionally did not fill out any of those forms. I couldn't give myself a good reason for needing the money badly enough. However, I did decide to take a residual ACT exam to increase my score, which I did raise, allowing me to get an extra $800 dollars in tuition waivers every month. I told myself that if I was going to survive in this world, then it would not be because of genetics only.

[Iron Archer]

This sort of affirmitive action amounts to buying electoral--or otherwise--votes from minorities. It amounts to nothing more than the forced bussing that used to go on. One would logically conclude that minorities are not being considered to be as smart as anyone else, which is not true. Personally I believe in personal responsibility--if you want something bad enough, you will have to attain it on your own merit. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that great Americans such as Martin Luther King and Malcolm X would be insulted that their people are being portrayed as weak or intellectually handicapped.

Here's an interesting quote by Justice O'Connor: "''In order to cultivate a set of leaders with legitimacy in the eyes of the citizenry, it is necessary that the path to leadership be visibly open to talented and qualified individuals of every race and ethnicity,'' Admissions officers can "consider race or ethnicity more flexibly as a 'plus' factor'' when considering every applicant individually, she wrote.*source (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-affirm24.html)

The funny thing is that I'm betting this will be used both ways. Some admissions officers will be using race as a 'minus factor' black, white or otherwise.

[W0RF]

How?
WORF, I can honestly say I can't explain it to you. I really don't know you or your experience well enough. All I can truly say is that if you are, in fact, White, that the disadvantage here in the U.S. is not as great for you as it is for a Black or Hispanic who is your same age, has the same SES, and has worked as hard as you.

Yes, it sucks that you feel that you are penalized for the wrongs that occurred generations ago but there is currently little or no solutions to what affirmative action offers.
Alternatives? How about getting ethnic communities to produce people that can actually pass the tests on their own merits? Meaning less crime, more school attendance, destroying the culture that views intelligence as a bad thing, etc. How do you do that? Search me, and search pretty much every government, ever.
Sorry for the myriad of quotes, but they're all relevant in forming my response.

To start, Sam, I still think legislating from the bench is a bad idea, and this decision actually illustrates that. The undergraduate form of profiling was struck down, but the criteria for the law school were upheld, using what Justice O'Connor referred to in rather floofy language as something more reasonable in factoring in race. The undergraduate policy was obviously far more deeply flawed, but now that the court has ruled half-and-half on this issue, every race-based admissions process has to wonder if it's going to end up being challenged in court, and what will happen down the road when the criteria changes.

That said, I agree with you. This issue is not so much about race correction, but a broader social issue. Urban communities, which indeed are largely made up of blacks and Hispanics, are a mess which go largely unaddressed by local governments. Here in Columbus, black-on-black crime is shockingly high, and we have kids getting killed in their living rooms by stray bullets. I would link the news story but our local paper requires registration to view archives. Their environment (which yes, at some point in time was likely influenced by rave) is a major deterrent.

Mickey and Jax, you ask how, the answer is simpler than you think: education. Obviously the logistics are far more complicated (that's like saying Israel and Palestine would get along fine if they just stopped shooting each other), but that is where the great inequity lies. Somewhere along the line education became an entitlement rather than a privelege. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because in America there ideally should not be any weeding out of who does and does not deserve a decent education. Rather, the problem is, the entitlement led to government intervention, and the government is trying to set up enough schools for every kid in the nation on the back of the taxpayers. There's not really enough money to prop up that many schools, and the money that exists is not spread out well. Since many school districts use property tax or some other funding based on locality, low-income areas by default have crappy schools.

I guess my point is, while racism still exists, it is a mere shadow of what it was just 30 short years ago. At least, it is here in the Midwest. Most of my generation and those younger than me didn't live in a world where segregation and class were a part of their culture. They've been indoctrinated into the new paradigm and they don't see the world the way their parents and grandparents did. Most of the old vestiges of racism are held by older people desperately clinging to their ideals. The more they die off, the less of their "legacy" carries on in our culture.

But the seeds they planted have already taken root, as evidenced by communities divided along racial lines, and the chaos that engulfs our urban communities. The solution is not race correction, but revitalizing our communities, and fixing or replacing an education system that hasn't really worked in the 50 years it's been running anyway. Oh and maybe we can actually take care of some of this stuff ourselves, rather than wait for government to fix everything for us? Just an idea...

:edit: just found this column by George Will (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24688-2003Jun23.html) which says some of the same things.

[Sam_The_Man]

There's one thing that hasn't been mentioned, as far as I can tell. Being born into a poor area, studying hard, making the effort, bearing the tauntings and beatings of your peers, and eventaully rising out of the ghetto, does deserve some credit for having the will to do all that.

But a race quota gives exactly the same number of points to a black person in that situation and one who was born rich and had all the advantages, and no points to a white who came out of a similarly disadvantaged area to the first black one.

[KJAX]

It raises some other interesting issues at least. I'm a white American, but with traces of American Indian ancestry. Before I graduated from high school, I spoke with counselors at the college I would be attending, and I discovered that I could practically triple my scholarship money if I filled out a few forms for extra scholarships for American Indians.

In the end, I intentionally did not fill out any of those forms. I couldn't give myself a good reason for needing the money badly enough. However, I did decide to take a residual ACT exam to increase my score, which I did raise, allowing me to get an extra $800 dollars in tuition waivers every month. I told myself that if I was going to survive in this world, then it would not be because of genetics only.

Well folks, this will be my last post in this thread.

Techno, I appreciate you sharing your experience. Remember, you had the choice of going after those scholarships created in the name of your Native American heritage. And you simply choose not to.

Those minorities who do choose to go after that money are often unfairly labeled. It sounds like to me that you very much wanted to avoid those labels. But for most minorities, who are already labeled, it comes down to choosing the money.

Sam, the University of Michigan's law school point system was soundly defeated by the Supreme Court. I expect other point systems at other unversities to disappear or be challenged over the next year. Clearly, the point system isn't going to survive.

It would be very interesting to see how admissions policies differ between universities. Currently Texas and Florida state schools use percentage policies. Perhaps this is the best alternative to the racial quota policies. I don't know. I don't work in a college admissions office.

As a black man from a rural community, I graduated from my high school in the top 10% of my class and earned a scholarship to the university of my choice. My scholarship: The African American Achievement Award. It is my wish that you all to remember that not every minority lives in a urban, ghetto setting. Some of us do live in a poor rural setting and need the money that affirmative action programs provide.

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions, BuFs. Very tasteful done.

Peace.

[W0RF]

two points KJax:

1). The undergraduate program was struck down, while the law school criteria were upheld. There were two different rulings here, and I think it's important to note that, and the reasons for each.

2). Your scholarship money, while certainly well-earned and deserved, has nothing to do with admissions standards, which is where these de facto quotas are impressed upon people. Very little scholarship money even comes from federal sources, but private ones, which means they are not beholden to the same standard of color-blindness that the government must hold.

This has generated an interesting sidebar question: What do you all think would happen if somebody offered scholarship money for which only white people could apply?

[Sam_The_Man]

This has generated an interesting sidebar question: What do you all think would happen if somebody offered scholarship money for which only white people could apply?

Pff, I'm sure that's actually rhetorical. You'd have a complete outcry.

The thing is, none of the reasons for giving preference to blacks and Hispanics - historical injustices, generally poor backgrounds - apply to whites. While I think those are bad reasons, they do give some justification.

[W0RF]

Pff, I'm sure that's actually rhetorical. You'd have a complete outcry.

The thing is, none of the reasons for giving preference to blacks and Hispanics - historical injustices, generally poor backgrounds - apply to whites. While I think those are bad reasons, they do give some justification.
White people don't come from poor backgrounds? They don't live in urban areas? They're not subect to high crime rates? They don't come from broken homes? There are currently more whites than blacks on the welfare roll. It's not a telling statistic of racial proportions amongst the poor, but it makes a cogent point that racial lines and financial lines are not cut in the same places. Take care how you use the word "none".