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QUALTHWAR
22nd Feb 2002, 09:41 PM
Temp Reviews (http://web.tampabay.rr.com/qualthwar/reviews/reviews.htm)

Chrysaor
23rd Feb 2002, 03:20 AM
Cool, thx for the review Q :)

4.5 for flow :-/ ugh. Glad you like the map tho :)

QUALTHWAR
23rd Feb 2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Chrysaor
Cool, thx for the review Q :)

4.5 for flow :-/ ugh. Glad you like the map tho :)

Well, i would like to see that part of it changed. Flow for a CTF map doesn't really apply like it does for a DM map. Pretty much all CTF maps will get a low flow score from me, because they really don't flow like a DM map does. CTF is geared to be a.... let's get from point A to point B map, not a.... let's loop around endlessly while we blast away and see how many frags we can get.

I would like to see Flow removed from the CTF review and replaced with something else. Don't get me wrong, there is some flow to a CTF, but it's not the same as a DM.

Zarkazm
25th Feb 2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by QUALTHWAR
I would like to see Flow removed from the CTF review and replaced with something else. Don't get me wrong, there is some flow to a CTF, but it's not the same as a DM.

Can't you just take the different purpose into account? I mean, the way you do it a perfect CTF map will still be rated down for lack of flow where it isn't wanted?
Surely CTF needs somethink akin to flow. A CTF-Flow. Short: Flow.

QUALTHWAR
27th Feb 2002, 04:23 PM
Hereís how I think of the importance of Flow: When you play a DM match, you are constantly dying and spawning. After you spawn, you want to be able to move or flow to a location to pick up another frag or two. This is very important in DM. If youíre stuck way out in no-manís land, it takes awhile to get back to where all the fighting is and youíre losing valuable points. But if you can spawn and flow in the direction of gunfire, or flow over to get your favorite weapon (which, by the way, means a lot to some people) and not waste much time doing it, then youíve kept your rhythm going.

With CTF, you donít need this same type of connectivity. So what if you spawn over here or over there. You just start making your way towards the flag, or you find yourself in a good spot to ambush someone, or whatever. You are part of a team and when you die off, your team loses an arm, but they sprout a new one when you respawn. In CTF, the goal isnít to see how many people you can blow away before the match ends, itís getting 3 flags from point A to B. You could go a whole match and not fire a shot and win the game. Itís a different environment, different feel when youíre CTFing; flow becomes less important.

Having said that, I still think you need some sort of flow with CTF, but itís different. Some people who make DM maps are constantly thinking about how well the map is connected together. Itís first and foremost on their mind. When a mapper makes a CTF map, there are other concerns besides connectivity, because itís not as much as an issue.

Iím open to any suggestions about how to analyze flow in CTF maps.

Hourences
27th Feb 2002, 05:28 PM
in a dm map you have to be able of play with the oponent, hunt him down, you have to be able of predicint the next move of your oponent, and that oponent will have to be able of knowwing his being hunt down, and has to be able of escaping too, and that kinda stuff, weapons are everywhere so thats not a prob of getting, if its isnt your favo weapon then thats your prob, you cant lay the whole map full of biorifles just for in case of someone wants a biorifle
in ctf you have the same, you need to be able of predicting the next move of your oponent, if you are in defence for isntance, you need to be able of controling your base, so like in ctf-coret wich is imo the map with the best gameplay from the original maps, if you are on deffence there you know where the enemy is gonna come, you hear the doors if he comes low, or you can see him trough the glass if he comes high, if he escapes with your flag over the high route you will be able of localizing him cause you hear the jumppad, but the enemy knows you heard it, so he jumps of the high floor again, and now goes low. but then you notice hes not gonna come over the high way, so you run to the low way, wich is easy too reach, yet far enough to give the enemy a far chance of escaping
so yah flow is different, but works around the same thing, it keeps flowing, and you are always be able of getting to another route in no time, you are always be able of predicting the next move of your enemy, and while doing that giving the enemy a faire chance of doing the same, and its not only getting from a to be, its getting from a to z by going trough points b c d e f g h, then change route and go to i j k l m n o p, then predict the enemy, by going to q r s t v w and then attacking the enemy base by points x y
otherwise people could just make a 10.000 units long cube and putting 2 flags at both ends of the cube (face :P) and that will be 1 hell of a boring map then

prob you see alot by ctf map is the connection and flow in the middle areas, last map i played wich was decent but had **** flow was spoondogs hydro32, now if you play there, and you are on defence, but the enemy has your flag, you wil respawn and translocate as fast as possible behind your flag again, and then imagen you know the enemy fc took the lower route, then the only chance of intercepting the enemy fc again is in the middle area (in ctf-hyro32, jsut as example) but if you loose there, your flag is history, you dont have a second chance, or you cant play aroudn with the enemy, its sooooo godamn straigh, and a right line is always boring, same thing, what if they have your flag, and you respawned, but you dont know wich route they took ? then you have no chance of knowing it in hydro32, cause there are only 2 ways, and certianly for the lowe way, the only time the flag comes in open air again is in the middle, for the rest nothing, no windows liek coret, no sound events, nothing, thats ghey then
or if you attack, you run to the lower route, but you face an enemy, ok no prob, you frag the guy, and you going on trough the lower route, only prob, that guy just warned his teamates, with a team bind INCOMING LOW, so now all the defenders are going to the lower areas and are gonna wait for you, and then you are history, in a map like coret ( although not the best example oin this case) you could say''aah that guy is prolly gonna warn his teammates so i will now switch my route and im going over the higher route now'', and that will only take a few sec in a good map, but in ghey maps you have to run another 5 minutes back to get to the other route again, thats ghey

now thats flows imo

pheer the text too :)

QUALTHWAR
3rd Mar 2002, 01:41 PM
Flow, according to the Review Schema, and Iím paraphrasing, because I donít have the thing in front of me, is how well the map is connected together. Can you constantly move around the map with ease and without even thinking about it? Thatís the gist of it. But itís the word ďaroundĒ in the phase ďconstantly move around the map with easeĒ thatís the stumbling block.

Many, if not most, DM maps have a basic square for a layout. Sure, they have this room jutting out here, and that thing jutting out there, but for the most part, the layout is square. By the same token, most CTF maps have an elongated layout. A rectangle, if you will. Itís this ďrectangleĒ that changes things with respect to the word ďaround.Ē You can constantly move around in a square, but with a rectangle, youíre doing more up and down, linear movements. This all but takes away the ďaroundĒ part.

This is my point in a nutshell. While CTF has Flow, itís different. Itís the linear layout that makes it different. Itís this ďdifferenceĒ that makes me feel as though we need a different rating system for CTF.

Trynant
3rd Mar 2002, 11:13 PM
hmm... IMO flow is different between games.

In a Deathmatch is about how well you can get from one place to another.

CTF isn't different in that respect but the places you get to are the flags.

Flow in a ctf game is important. In capture the flag you need to be able to grab the flag and go back while at the same time the enemy has to be able to get to you. Flow in ctf revolves around the flag. A ctf map with bad flow will result in a map where movement is hindered by obstacles and dead ends. Good flow in a ctf map is one where flag carriers can't play endless hide and seek and players move from one base to the other with ease. Flow is very important to me in any match. If you cant move around then you're playing a map with bad flow.... or somebody's sniping you :p .

Chrysaor
3rd Mar 2002, 11:59 PM
I do almost exclusively CTF. I relate it to DM with an ultimate objective. CTF is different for that, but my rule of thumb has always been Frag, then Flag. The flagroom, the center and the enemy flagroom, every good map makes a distinction between the three, that allow for interplay almost DM fashion. The flagroom in Coret is perfect. It offers multiple routes that intersect often, and that's what I strive for in my maps. You do need some sense of order, so that predictability of enemy players' movements remains high, but you can't do something like CTF-2Hallways that doesn't connect to anything but either flagroom, that doesn't have any flow. Allowing playes to choose their movements a certain amount of times intermitently is CTF flow.