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Evil_Cope
22nd Feb 2002, 03:53 PM
Large maps. not large as in compared to 1on1, not large as in filesize...


large as in takes more than 7 people easily. 32players+ even.


we all know that most are poop. just look at the badkarma star wars pack... or rather dont. the lighting is criminal.


but... are large maps necessarily bad? i mean, is it possible for a large map to offer good gameplay, theme, atmosphere, graphics etc?

just so you know, there are such things as team player starts for team deathmatch now, and we can include the other gametypes such as ctf dom and *shudder* Ass.

Rukee
22nd Feb 2002, 04:09 PM
Of course large maps can be great!!
Just look (http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?scope=0&section=0&file=82591) at DM-Toberus}{ !!

Chrysaor
22nd Feb 2002, 04:15 PM
Ruk, you're on permanent pimpage mode :p

No it's not possible in my book. Lavagiant comes close in playability and ProjectX2 comes even closer because of looks as well, but I don't think we'll see a large map that's extremelly possible, at least not on this engine. If CTF were so that you had to carry a flag back to it's home base, as opposed to walking over it, and there were some sort of Flag only radar, it would help out the big maps.

Evil_Cope
22nd Feb 2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Rukee
Of course large maps can be great!!
Just look (http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?scope=0&section=0&file=82591) at DM-Toberus}{ !!


2/10

SpiritWalker
22nd Feb 2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Rukee
look [/url] at DM-Toberus}{ !!

= sureboT

Mxtrmntr
22nd Feb 2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope
Large maps. not large as in compared to 1on1, not large as in filesize...


large as in takes more than 7 people easily. 32players+ even.


we all know that most are poop. just look at the badkarma star wars pack... or rather dont. the lighting is criminal.


but... are large maps necessarily bad? i mean, is it possible for a large map to offer good gameplay, theme, atmosphere, graphics etc?

just so you know, there are such things as team player starts for team deathmatch now, and we can include the other gametypes such as ctf dom and *shudder* Ass.

Of course it's possible for them to offer good theme, atmosphere and graphics. But it's quite difficult, if not impossible, for those maps to get gameplay that's as good / fun as in a really good 1on1 or "normal" map. One of the best REALLY big maps is certainly CTF-Shadar, but I couldn't think of many others that are as good as that one.

Zarkazm
22nd Feb 2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Chrysaor
If CTF were so that you had to carry a flag back to it's home base, as opposed to walking over it

Weapons Factory. Optional.

And Dark Magic (www.planetunreal.com/ucz) plans to implement this feature too. Will, in fact. Plus the option to pick up your own flag at any time. Scoring only possible with both maps at your flagbase of course.

Chrysaor
22nd Feb 2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Zarkazm


Weapons Factory. Optional.

And Dark Magic (www.planetunreal.com/ucz) plans to implement this feature too. Will, in fact. Plus the option to pick up your own flag at any time. Scoring only possible with both maps at your flagbase of course.

Does DarkMagic have plans on making huge ass maps?

Evil_Cope
22nd Feb 2002, 07:08 PM
only in a good way ;)


seriously though, in darkmagic you need room to spread your wings and fly. etc.

for 1on1 magicy stuff, you want godz really. its just a bit more limited, but they have nice models i guess.

Zarkazm
22nd Feb 2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Chrysaor
Does DarkMagic have plans on making huge ass maps?

Plans? :lol:

You might call it that.

Zarkazm
22nd Feb 2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope
for 1on1 magicy stuff, you want godz really. its just a bit more limited, but they have nice models i guess.

I didn't like the flying around each other throwing energy balls impression I got by their movie much. I hope there'll be more.

Chrysaor
22nd Feb 2002, 09:11 PM
Oh whoops, lemme rephraze that, is Dark magic going to have Huge-Ass maps, not Huge ass-maps. And especially not Maps of Huge ass.

lucifix
22nd Feb 2002, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Chrysaor
Oh whoops, lemme rephraze that, is Dark magic going to have Huge-Ass maps, not Huge ass-maps. And especially not Maps of Huge ass. /me imagines getting fragged on a Huge-Ass..

hm...sounds nice!

jreister
22nd Feb 2002, 09:20 PM
If they are like the Chaos UT maps

cough!me rejects to be respawned,cough

QUALTHWAR
22nd Feb 2002, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope


but... are large maps necessarily bad? yes

Originally posted by mister_cope


i mean, is it possible for a large map to offer good gameplay, theme, atmosphere, graphics etc?
no

Rabid Wolf
23rd Feb 2002, 02:04 AM
tell me more about these team spawnpoints. do they work in dom? if so, where can I get them?

Eyuva 'S' NRG
23rd Feb 2002, 06:06 AM
I enjoy 16+ player free for alls, unfortunately most large maps have ass backwards layouts where the map designer was thinking of building an actual place, instead of a grand gameplay arena.

Best UT map for this is DM-Tempest 100%. Nobody has yet to design something as remotely good for FFA as DM-Tempest.

Just play any of those ultra gay maps on the Cave of the Pheonix server to see what I mean. That server could be great if the admin would get over his incredibly sucky taste in maps.

fragswill
23rd Feb 2002, 07:04 AM
Depends on three things: Do you intend it to be playable on anything else than your own machine, do you intend it to be played online and do you have the time/patience to make it good enough? Not counting the above, yes it is possible.

@kuma
23rd Feb 2002, 07:59 AM
large maps can work, but you have to make them either tight corridor fests or ultrasimple like lavagiant. And 32 players on one map is not going to work with UT.

tempest is probably as big as it should go IMO but then I never did like 16 player+ FFA's

Zarkazm
23rd Feb 2002, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Chrysaor
Oh whoops, lemme rephraze that, is Dark magic going to have Huge-Ass maps, not Huge ass-maps. And especially not Maps of Huge ass.

Well, there's CTF-Stoneforts, although Bot_40 insists it sucks. You should see the basic terrains for Stoneforts][ or Wasteland ;)

And I trust most of you'll have to buy a new pc soon anyway to run Unreal2. Pentium3 is stoneage :p

As for the big maps, the trick is to have a simple terrain and a complex insides part. Localized details and sight obstacles so you'll not see too much of anything at any time.

The problem with Dark Magic is: you can fly, so if you fly high enough, you get to see the whole map... the outside part at least. A feat for Rukee's rig :p

AMmayhem
23rd Feb 2002, 10:11 AM
I remember (actually I still play it occasionally) an Unreal 1 map that needs all 15 bots before it's at its best, it's called DM-Cold Rocks Hold. AS-Bridge is a large map, and I think that's sweet as hell. So yes I think large maps are possible, not as easy to come by, but possible.

Evil_Cope
23rd Feb 2002, 04:53 PM
Assault sucks Major ass frankly. sad but true.


BUT.


some similar, hopefully less sucky gametype would be a good thing. wouldnt it? i think so.


suggestions for fixing Assault MORE THAN WELCOME

Zarkazm
23rd Feb 2002, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope
Assault sucks Major ass frankly. sad but true.


BUT.


some similar, hopefully less sucky gametype would be a good thing. wouldnt it? i think so.


suggestions for fixing Assault MORE THAN WELCOME


If I got another idea to improve Assault, I shall post it as a proposal for Quest.

-Penfold-
23rd Feb 2002, 06:01 PM
Hey, I once read a review (here at nalicity of course) about a decent and very large map (large space wise, and I'd guess large file size wise)

Anyone know the name of it?

Mxtrmntr
23rd Feb 2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by -Penfold-
Hey, I once read a review (here at nalicity of course) about a decent and very large map (large space wise, and I'd guess large file size wise)

Anyone know the name of it?

Again, CTF-Shadar comes to my mind...but I guess there are enough other large maps with decent scores...

BangOut
23rd Feb 2002, 08:23 PM
Cope, assault doesn't suck. I know, the truth hurts.

Shadar had criminally bad gameplay... not an example of a good large map.

-Penfold-
23rd Feb 2002, 08:31 PM
Mxtrmntr,

Thanks for the reply, but I think it was a DM map. And i guess it was HUGE (one of, if not the largest (space-wise) that had yet been reviewed, i think). I think it was somewhat real-world-ish. Maybe it'd be good for some change-of-pace zoomable-instagib, to break up fast play now and then and introduce more suspense.

Chrysaor
23rd Feb 2002, 09:44 PM
I hear Frogtown is really big...

ProjectX2 has decent gameplay.

Evil_Cope
23rd Feb 2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
Cope, assault doesn't suck. I know, the truth hurts.

Shadar had criminally bad gameplay... not an example of a good large map.


we talking about the same gametype here? ;)

Eyuva 'S' NRG
24th Feb 2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by @kuma
large maps can work, but you have to make them either tight corridor fests or ultrasimple like lavagiant. And 32 players on one map is not going to work with UT.

tempest is probably as big as it should go IMO but then I never did like 16 player+ FFA's

Personally I think Tempest is the best map for mass killing, pure adrenaline fun. Nice flow, looks good, (although a tad ghey on the lighting), no teleporters, and finally, it's made by the Cliffmeister. Just kidding, I know Cliffy made some serious stinkers. Never got the hang of Shrapnel. At least I think it was him that made that map. I just hate the layout in it.

32 players, heh. It's funny once in a while to load up DM-Fractal Reactor with 32 players. Just for ****s and giggles though.

Eyuva 'S' NRG
24th Feb 2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by mister_cope
Assault sucks Major ass frankly. sad but true.


BUT.


some similar, hopefully less sucky gametype would be a good thing. wouldnt it? i think so.


suggestions for fixing Assault MORE THAN WELCOME

eliminate the one route to the objective premise. Too many assault maps are boring because they force the attacker to storm an impregible fortress, with only one route to the objective.

DM-Overlord (unless you know how to impact jump) is such a classic example of bad gameplay design, it ain't even funny. I cant even play that map without the ugly reality of a horrible gameplay in my face. Pity too, since the map actually was designed well.

Zarkazm
24th Feb 2002, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by Eyuva 'S' NRG
eliminate the one route to the objective premise. Too many assault maps are boring because they force the attacker to storm an impregible fortress, with only one route to the objective.

Good point. I'd actually like maps where the attackers can apply different means of intrusion, like stealth or brutal force. I also dislike how crossing a certain line activates an alarm telling everyone I just cleared objective x/y.
There should be pseudo-realistic defense mechanisms, alarms, scripted guards in case of large maps.

The defenders then should be able to sneak into the base or whatever it is, deactivating alarms or brutally destroying defense mechanisms to prepare a direct assault.

For that matter, I would also like more and different autocannons in assault maps. I don't mean strategically placed cannons that will injure attackers so badly when passign a bottleneck that the defenders don't have much trouble with 'em.
I mean like, many autocannons that force the attackers to keep their heads down and move from cover to cover rather than just running over open areas real fast.

In short, I want more tactical play rather than running through the map shooting like Rambo.

JTRipper
24th Feb 2002, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by lucifix
/me imagines getting fragged on a Huge-Ass..

hm...sounds nice!

Depends on the ass, I would think.

AMmayhem
24th Feb 2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Eyuva 'S' NRG
eliminate the one route to the objective premise. Too many assault maps are boring because they force the attacker to storm an impregible fortress, with only one route to the objective.

That's a good point. Frigate has more than one way in, across the dock, or under water. But even then, if you made more than one route, you'd have to make them either equally difficult, or one being a little bit harder, but closer. It would be kind of pointless to have more than one path if everyone's still going to take one because it's easier.

BangOut
24th Feb 2002, 03:56 PM
Quick question: who of you all have actually played a lot of Assault rather than just giving up on it and slagging it soon thereafter?

Mxtrmntr
24th Feb 2002, 04:09 PM
Coldsteel series = l33t :tup:

didn't play a lot of other assault maps tho, some of them were quite nice, but none of them were as good as the Coldsteel maps.

Zarkazm
24th Feb 2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
Quick question: who of you all have actually played a lot of Assault rather than just giving up on it and slagging it soon thereafter?

Alot doesn't quite describe it, but quite a number. And yeah, I Liked Cold Steel too. Or was it Colder Steel? Something like it. well placed cannon. Still, all maps are too strightforward imo. 2-3 routes isn't what I mean. I mean more like, imagine a huge fortress with tons of autocannons around, scripted guards in many places. But also lots of weaknesses. Power generators you can destroy to turn the massive autocannon defenses off. You can hack the electronic lock if you manage to get close to the main gate. You can try to come in through the sewers, too. Inside you can try to sneak past the guards or kill them. Several paths to the 'goal' but also alarms and obstacles wherever you look. And the defenders try to keep you out. They may try to secure certain strategically important points, or reinforce the automatic guards. Or they try to look outside to see where you're coming in.
Huge mapping effort, obviously.

The significant point is: Many secondary objectives which aren't necessary but will give you an advantage. You can go for 'em or try to rush the goal ignoring them. You can try stealth or brute force. Most Assault maps I've played didn't seem to give me many options. Defenders would mostly try to hold key points near the objectives, because all or nearly all objectives were necessary. And I don't care about automatic "Objective XY has been reached" messages. Lame.

AMmayhem
24th Feb 2002, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Zarkazm
Alot doesn't quite describe it, but quite a number. And yeah, I Liked Cold Steel too. Or was it Colder Steel? Something like it. well placed cannon. Still, all maps are too strightforward imo. 2-3 routes isn't what I mean. I mean more like, imagine a huge fortress with tons of autocannons around, scripted guards in many places. But also lots of weaknesses. Power generators you can destroy to turn the massive autocannon defenses off. You can hack the electronic lock if you manage to get close to the main gate. You can try to come in through the sewers, too. Inside you can try to sneak past the guards or kill them. Several paths to the 'goal' but also alarms and obstacles wherever you look. And the defenders try to keep you out. They may try to secure certain strategically important points, or reinforce the automatic guards. Or they try to look outside to see where you're coming in.
Huge mapping effort, obviously.

The significant point is: Many secondary objectives which aren't necessary but will give you an advantage. You can go for 'em or try to rush the goal ignoring them. You can try stealth or brute force. Most Assault maps I've played didn't seem to give me many options. Defenders would mostly try to hold key points near the objectives, because all or nearly all objectives were necessary. And I don't care about automatic "Objective XY has been reached" messages. Lame.

You mean more of an offensive mission where the point is to enter an enemy base and do as much damage as you can in X minutes. That does sound like a cool idea. :tup: Instead of your "take over a train," or "destroy big cannon" missions.

BangOut
24th Feb 2002, 07:35 PM
Q3A:TA, Tribes 2, RtCW, and Renegade all offer these more advanced elements of Assault, but UT opened the door for it

Zarkazm
24th Feb 2002, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by AMmayhem


You mean more of an offensive mission where the point is to enter an enemy base and do as much damage as you can in X minutes. That does sound like a cool idea. :tup: Instead of your "take over a train," or "destroy big cannon" missions.

Not quite, althought that might be fun too. I meant to say the map shouldn't be centered around 2-3 specific routes. Instead, a pseudo-realistic defensive should be created which has several weaknesses build in. You could not only use diffferent routes, but also change direction inbetween and create distractions. The goal would still be the same, but I guess there could be different ways of achieving it.

I didn't say it's simple.

Zarkazm
24th Feb 2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
Q3A:TA, Tribes 2, RtCW, and Renegade all offer these more advanced elements of Assault, but UT opened the door for it

I am playing the wrong game then :lol:

Nah really, I thought about trying Tribes2. Most I hear about it sounds interesting. And I may buy any of the others, too.
But I wanted to say it's possible to do that for UT. Custom scripts help, of course.

BangOut
24th Feb 2002, 08:05 PM
Tribes 2 is total crap, RtCW is okay, Renegade is pretty much **** right now, and Q3A:TA is okay....

Maybe someone will make a modified U2 or UT2 assault mod

Zarkazm
24th Feb 2002, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
Tribes 2 is total crap, RtCW is okay, Renegade is pretty much **** right now, and Q3A:TA is okay....

Maybe someone will make a modified U2 or UT2 assault mod

Opinions on Tribes seem to differ greatly. And I own Q3A. I don't like the feel of the game. And I'm not a hardcore UT lover Quake hater. Not until after I played Q3A that is.

I wait for UT2. I love UT, so I got no reason not to love UT2 too. And there're gonna be vehicles after all.

Evil_Cope
25th Feb 2002, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
Quick question: who of you all have actually played a lot of Assault rather than just giving up on it and slagging it soon thereafter?



my standpoint is that if you need to play lots to get into it, its a **** gametype. :P

thje suggestions about non-linearity are good points though. we shall have to try and implement some of them into darkmagic sometime. :)


btw, no-one interested on coming on board and doing some mapping? probably not. doesnt help to ask though...if we are ever going to rival the realism communities we need more mappers. :)

BangOut
25th Feb 2002, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope
my standpoint is that if you need to play lots to get into it, its a **** gametype. :P

DMUT

Evil_Cope
25th Feb 2002, 09:16 PM
most people are instantly hooked by darkmagic. :P and as its not finished yet, any critiscism would be apreciated actually Bangout.

so... whats wrong with it?

BangOut
25th Feb 2002, 09:26 PM
I lost my industrious nature. Send $$$ and I'll tell you.

Evil_Cope
25th Feb 2002, 09:30 PM
you havent played it, its blindingly obvious. bite me.

BangOut
25th Feb 2002, 09:35 PM
Yes, it's blindingly obvious that I wouldn't download a mod from someone who's constantly berating me.

GoldenMouse
25th Feb 2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by mister_cope




my standpoint is that if you need to play lots to get into it, its a *** gametype. :D

the suggestions about non-linearity are god points though. we shall have to try and implement some of them into darkmagic sometime. :)


btw, no-one interested on coming on board and ding some mapping? probably not. doesn't help to ask though...if we are ever going to revel the realism communities we need more mappers. :)

I would, but....

I'm only now becoming a decent mapper. It takes me forever to actually get one out, esp. because I have school to deal with. I have only played a little DM.

Evil_Cope
25th Feb 2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
Yes, it's blindingly obvious that I wouldn't download a mod from someone who's constantly berating me.


you earn it all bangy dear. ;) nice excuse for ignorance btw.

BangOut
25th Feb 2002, 10:02 PM
Would you like to see my new art? you can show it to the hateful kids at the bus stop

Evil_Cope
25th Feb 2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by BangOut
Would you like to see my new art? you can show it to the hateful kids at the bus stop


your new art? if its the long promised nipple avatar, maybe. if its the long promised dom-britney, not as such.

if its spam. spam on.

BangOut
25th Feb 2002, 10:18 PM
better get a ream of paper so you can print it out

AMmayhem
26th Feb 2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by GoldenMouse
I would, but....

I'm only now becoming a decent mapper. It takes me forever to actually get one out, esp. because I have school to deal with. I have only played a little DM.

Same here. :hmm: