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[tHG]Dark Ranger
16th Feb 2002, 11:49 AM
I played the multiplay demo of C&C Renegade and I have to say it did not even come close to meeting my expectations. I was sadly dissapointed. This game was on my to own list. Not anymore.

Of course Renegade will probably never measure up to UT2 either unless there's some miraculous game engine overhaul for a Renegade 2.

I also hope UT2 doesn't slip and make the same mistake as Operation Flashpoint. OFP maps were big and beautiful but not enough players to justify the size. OFP gameplay was too realistic and the weapons sounds (where did they get those toy gun sounds??)


Back to Renegade: Renegade tried and failed in my opinion. This is only a demo but the demo usually will provide a good indication of what to expect when the game is released. The game concept is brilliant but there is no shine to the game....

Player models and animation -a big!!! big!!! Thumbs Down for Renegade. I think UT2 has or will have this one nailed down though. The sounds sound like cheap imitations. It could produce alot of these sounds with my K2000 Synth keyboard.

Vehicles (some of them) are fun to drive but they really serve no strategic purpose for such a small map.

I was driving a tank and shelled an infantry player 4 to 5 times and he kept going. ?

The demo map was also way too cramped and should have been bigger.


Textures for Renegade big thumbs down. I think UT2 also has this one covered and she be ok.

Heres my point: I did not buy a GF3 to experience outdated graphics. and rusty gameplay, same old same old animations.
Exceptions can be made and Im referring to Medal of Honor. Graphics is a little out dated but gameplay is intense. Renegade is missing the Big I- Intense Gameplay..like fast and furious yet smooth.

Im being hard on Renegade but the good thing abut this game is the concept is workable they just need to overhaul the game engine or replace it with something that will do justice for the game concept.

Game play for Renegade another thumbs down. Why does it take 2 clips to take a soldier out when your 10-15 feet away and nailing him dead on? There is a problem with the hit detection or something. The collision detection has some bugs also such as players sticking through vehicles or buildings.

I could go on.....

Point is, I expected a little bit ( a little bit is not asking for a whole lot) more from this game and I definitely expect alot more from Unreal Tournament 2. I hope someone from DE will take a look at this game Renegade and learn from some of the mistakes Renegade made with the vehicles.

Please comment..Do you think UT2 will make some of the same mistakes as Renegade?

Law
16th Feb 2002, 12:05 PM
Renegade and UT2 are not comparable. They have vehicles and some FPS aspects in common, but Renegade is an FPS-RTS hybrid and UT2 will be a fast-paced FPS.

Digital Extremes has the experience necessary to make a great game, and this was Westwood's first real shot at making something other than a RTS game. There's no reason to believe UT2 will be a failure because Renegade was.

[tHG]Dark Ranger
16th Feb 2002, 12:33 PM
No Law, I dont believe UT2 will be a failure but anything can happen. The possibilty exists when your'e adding a new dimension to a game-Vehicles. I hope they will get the vehicle game play right. Vehicles will be a first for DE. The first step I think in accomplishing that is developing maps that are suited for the vehicles. And yes I know as DE indicated they have no intentions of having the game be a vehicle-dominant game

Comparison wise UT2 and Renegade will share some similar game concepts such as stations, bases etc.. Your'e right on about Renegade being a hybrid of sorts... RTS.

I was dissapointed with the Renegade demo and I hope that will not be the case for UT2 even though they are different games in most aspects.

[IsP]KaRnAgE
16th Feb 2002, 02:34 PM
according to them, vehicles will ack as special weapons in some cases. Basically vehicles will be balance with weapons so you can't own a match just because you hopped in a hover bike or what not.

DeRailer
16th Feb 2002, 11:12 PM
I would not say Renegade has failed. Since the less than 50 dedicated servers gather a constant figure of 2000-2500 players, during off-peak or not. As a matter of fact, I think it has been very successful. Everytime after a successful blast through the enemies base, it always gave me a great sense of satisfaction unlike what any UT games can do. Players are yelling "Great Game!" half the times during the game, how can that be bad?

Renegade tried and failed to be a Tribes 2. This is only a demo but the demo usually will provide a good indication what to expect when the game is released.
Renegade nevertried to be T2, being an player for both games, i can assure you they are very different. Renegade is more like a "successful" online battlezone, T2 is capture the flag with vehicles and huge wide open spaces.

Player models and animation -a big!!! big!!! Thumbs Down for Renegade. I think UT2 has or will have this one nailed down though.
Agreed, although they don't seem to sux that bad imo.

Vehicles (some of them) are fun to drive but they really serve no strategic purpose for such a small map.
I think you had not play much of the demo. Vehicles serves a critical role just like in the original cnc rts; Destroys oppenents base. You can never get pass opponent's guardtower without decent co-operations from your tank riding teammates.
For UT2, vehicles will only be in the bigger outdoor maps. I think UT2's vehicle system will work out pretty fine like T2 ctf.,Bbt they also depends on the kind of vehicles themselves.

I was driving a tank and shelled an infantry player 4 to 5 times and he kept going. ?
They can be quite a few reasons behind this:
1) Your playing on a non dedicated server.
2) Your opponent is on 56k
3) You didn't do it UT style: Target the ground so the splash damage hits. work wonders.

The demo map was also way too cramped and should have been bigger.
It's one out of the many that will be released. Surely others will satisfy your need?

Textures for Renegade thumbs down. I think UT2 also has this one covered and she be ok.
I will tell you the exact opposite: the textures are sharp and detailed. Put everything on max and run them under high resolution. The below shot taken by me with anistropic filtering disabled
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=1066289

Game play for Renegade another thumbs down. Why does it take 2 clips to take a soldier out when your 10-15 feet away and nailing him dead on? There is a problem with the hit detection or something. The collision detection has some bugs also such as players sticking through vehicles or buildings.
Well, i think all need is a little practice to take down a player. I have no problem with it now constantly aiming for the head. It also takes a little practice to hit more experience players.
Collision detection has some bugs? I heard of this problem from some players but experience none myself. Make sure video mode is set to 32bit colors.

Seeing how "successful" Renegade had been, I trust UT2 to be even better. :D
Nay they are two very different game. Just that UT2 will have a vehicles and plays like Unreal Tournament. //drool of link-gun

[tHG]Dark Ranger
17th Feb 2002, 01:11 AM
Well Derailer we are all entitled to our opinions. This is definitely one game , Renegade, I will not buy-guaranteed. This demo was definitely a wake up call.

Although its likely we wont see a demo for UT2 I'll still buy UT2 before trying a demo, because I anticipate more from UT2 over its older game.

If Renegade could have got FPS gameplay at least as half way decent as Medal of Honor I would have been satisfied. Renegade the game may not fail as far as sales go and other people liking the game, but it has failed miserably!!! for me.

Yeah its not really a Tribes 2 game plus Tribes 2 maps were bigger compared to Renegade demo map ...I just keep referencing the vehicle stations. I guess that sticks in my mind alot.

Sure vehicles serve a role in Renegade but you cant use them strategically. So whats the point of having them when poor game design planning is an issue.

I will say Renegade's Game concept/objective is Great!!! but the gameplay, player modelling animation, hit/damage detection, sounds and everything else really hurts the game. Yes the vehicles are fun to hop in etc...but I dont want to spend money on a game that doesnt even reach its potential. The game was released too soon. I should say will be released too soon.

I think odds are pretty good that someone will make a mod thats better than this game.

IntRed
17th Feb 2002, 04:40 AM
well, the concept is pretty nice of renegade, the result a bit disappointing, online there is lots and lots of lag, and in most cases you get thrown out of the server after 3 to 5 minutes, but if you're lucky this won't happen. Also very disappointed that online play only works with gamespy arcade ,though a very good marketing move, for the player its just annoying. Graphics are a bit dated, but we're really spoiled with games as rtcw and moh:aa. Gameplay is excellent really, if you're on a lag-free server you can have the best time of your life with a tank or buggy imo :)
It stands out of the rest, but there is to much room for improvement. Heck i've seen better mods for hl, but you can't blame them its the first time they enter the fps arena (westwood that is). I've also noticed some mayor bugs in the game, this could be due to the map or due to the vehicle code, or both. Nothing a patch or two couldn't fix, but i'm disappointed they released it this way.

DeRailer
17th Feb 2002, 04:43 AM
If your concern about the strategic deployment of vehicles, isn't "placing the Heavy Artillaries on the top of the cliff", "forming a massive mammoth tanks roadblock" strategic? Both in a way can cripple opponent's credits as well as manpower, and that is imo enough. Unless your defination of "strategy" with vehicle is a little different.
Now i do respect your opinion as I felt they are applied to many gamers as well. But no game pleases everyone, not even counterstrike.

NeoNite
17th Feb 2002, 08:15 AM
The game is to be released sept-oct (?) this year, and already you're worried it might fail...

congratulations.

[tHG]Dark Ranger
17th Feb 2002, 11:43 AM
N3o
No in all honesty I dont think UT2 will fail. I hope game play is balanced. I titled the thread wrong/incorrectly.

Its really hard to say when you add vehicles to the game. There is the map size issue as well the game objective.I wonder if there will be vehicles in all of UT2's maps.

I dont know how it well turn out because I havent seen any demos of UT2 except for the video clips and that vehicle racing across the desert looked smooth. Anyone know what the server limits are going to be like for UT2?

Derailer. Yeah you can't please everyone. As far as driving the mobile artillery vehicle to the top of the cliff for support: I myself wouldn't call that a cliff. I dont know what to call it. For one the map is too small and boxed in to get vehicles at a strategic point.
Well I'll say its just a very poor representation of a cliff. The map is also too small for vehicles.

Overall I think the game engine for Renegade could use a major overhaul or it needs to be seriuosly tweeked. I believe the engine was built from the ground up and there's alot of room for improvement.

...MOH graphics are a little outdated but that game is still halfway decent to play.

Vladimir_sukhov
18th Feb 2002, 12:28 AM
I don't think UT's gonna fail. Digital ec\xtremes are quite experienced in designing and vehicles concepts can be handled alternatively. They have a good and dedicated team.

My personal opinion : UT2 will break all UT's records, hopefully:)

NeoNite
18th Feb 2002, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Dark Ranger
N3o
No in all honesty I dont think UT2 will fail. I hope game play is balanced. I titled the thread wrong/incorrectly.

Its really hard to say when you add vehicles to the game. There is the map size issue as well the game objective.I wonder if there will be vehicles in all of UT2's maps.



;) Don't worry I was only testing your beliefs ;) Personally I think UT2 will be a whole new experience. People always tend to make the same mistake over and over again, and that's comparing the new concept with the old. Ut2-Ut.
I don't think it'll be a T2 clone, it still ought to have arcade style gameplay (turbo gameplay, raising gamespeed, aircontrol etc)
The vehicles will simply give the whole thing a new "dimesion", a new feel.
Maybe it won't be that bad ;)

NeoNite
18th Feb 2002, 04:48 AM
Oh yeah :) Before I forget:

Both of you, Dark ranger and Vladimir, welcome to Buf :D

Sparky
21st Feb 2002, 03:59 AM
Westwood cut the Multiplayer version's graphics down to keep it running speedy, the single player environment officially looks 10,000x better... not that it would have any chance against UT2 in the first place.

gramps
21st Feb 2002, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Sparky
Westwood cut the Multiplayer version's graphics down to keep it running speedy,

ugh, that's the Dynamix way of solving problems. :tdown: what kind of solution is that? they should make sure their netcode improves, rather than tone down other things to adapt to a mediocre part of their engine. :/

[tHG]Dark Ranger
21st Feb 2002, 06:17 PM
I have no doubt at all that UT2 has the eye candy department, animations and all that other good stuff under control.

But I hope the game is not missing the BIG I- Intense gameplay= fast and furious fun. This is one reason why I go back to playing Medal of Honor Online over and over again. Medal of Honor also has the weapon animations down fairly well. Alot of things in Medal of Honor are a little outdated but the game compensates for this with the Big I. I dont see anything that Renegade compensates for other than driving the vehicles.

I did expand my comments on the first post( added and edited). Please take a peek if your interested. Here are some of the comments:

Heres my point: I did not buy a GF3 to experience outdated graphics. and rusty gameplay, same old same old animations.
Exceptions can be made and Im referring to Medal of Honor. Graphics are a little out dated but gameplay is intense. Renegade is missing the Big I- Intense Gameplay..like fast and furious yet smooth. MOH is not always smooth but its alot of fun!!!

Im being hard on Renegade but the good thing about this game is that the concept is workable they just need to overhaul the game engine or replace it with something that will do justice for the game concept.

NeoNite
21st Feb 2002, 06:22 PM
Dark Ranger, I still play Doom. Can you believe that? Want to know why? Cause the game is magic :) it has this ..certain something.. that keeps pulling you in, for more... :)
That's probably what you were trying to say ;)

[tHG]Dark Ranger
21st Feb 2002, 06:31 PM
Yes you got it. Magic and a little bit of shine..just a little bit

One of my problems is I tend to use UT as a benchmark to measure other new FPS and this really should not be done, because sometimes its like comparing apples to oranges...different engines, sometimes different objectives and gameplay. It doesnt always add up when you take this approach.

Yes I can believe you still play Doom. I stopped playing UT a few months ago.

Here's one for you...
I was driving home from work today and I spotted a bumper sticker on another guys car: It said LAG SUCKS!! in big print.

No kidding on that bumper sticker
LOL

NeoNite
22nd Feb 2002, 05:33 AM
:( Damn why stop playing ut? Cause of the mos online? Bored of the gameplay? Tried every single mutator and mod and every combination possible? :)

DeRailer
22nd Feb 2002, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by Dark Ranger
I have no doubt at all that UT2 has the eye candy department, animations and all that other good stuff under control.

UT2 is backed by a advance and solid engine that had constantly evolve over time. The latest 848 build of the Unreal Engine had already been proven to be one of the benchmark of the future. With textures going as high as 1024*1024, UT2 will look amazing now and in the future.


But I hope the game is not missing the BIG I- Intense gameplay= fast and furious fun. This is one reason why I go back to playing Medal of Honor Online over and over again. Medal of Honor also has the weapon animations down fairly well. Alot of things in Medal of Honor are a little outdated but the game compensates for this with the Big I. I dont see anything that Renegade compensates for other than driving the vehicles.

Personal Opinions: being snipers throughout the game is not my idea of fun. Fast and intense gameplay doesn't go well together here. The map, "bridge" is overplayed. These are the few things I'm not so happy about MoH:AA, and probably why I had not played MoH a week after I purchase the game. Many times the game turned into sniper warfare or Bazooka blast fest. It's unneccessary madness. I turned to DoD 2.0 for the more balance WW2 game as they are similar in style.
imho, I felt Renegade is more balance, have more teamwork and actually more intense to some point. Disarming the nuclear beacon before it explode in your face, running through wide open space covered by enemies snipers. Rocket launcher duel with a more powerful GDI Gunner. I think the game is beautifully balanced. Vehicles ain't fun for all; most of the time I'll prefer to be a trooper to aid my team with tactical firepower, or a chance to infiltrate the base.
Preferences of gameplay is really a matter of personal opinions. And for me, after playing so much of the demo, i say I've enjoy Renegade better than moh online.


Heres my point: I did not buy a GF3 to experience outdated graphics. and rusty gameplay, same old same old animations.
Exceptions can be made and Im referring to Medal of Honor. Graphics are a little out dated but gameplay is intense. Renegade is missing the Big I- Intense Gameplay..like fast and furious yet smooth. MOH is not always smooth but its alot of fun!!!

I have a Geforce 3 as well, but I used the card to play even older games like half-life(DoD and tfc being some of them). Even though i love my G3 to death, I admit I'm not one of those who put graphic in front of gameplay, and I felt Renegade's gameplay is good. For me, Renegade has that certain "magic". Moh and renegade probably differs a lot in terms of intensity: MoH being more atmospheric(1 on 1 is exceptionally intense), with Renegade having the bigger battles.


Im being hard on Renegade but the good thing about this game is that the concept is workable they just need to overhaul the game engine or replace it with something that will do justice for the game concept.

Sorry but I disagree, there are players who like Renegade style of play, replacing any of the game concept will move it further away from the C&C universe than it already is, and Renegade will be "just another fps". Renegade has gone gold, and I'm happy it has a solid release date on the 26th Feb.

[tHG]Dark Ranger
22nd Feb 2002, 04:49 PM
Derailer- Yep its all a matter of opinion in most cases. You see it your way... Thats how you see it on Renegade and the others.

Renegade is not a horrible game I just expected much more.

Renegade to me is Team a Fortress version 1.5 with vehicles and RTS/FPS game concept. Team Fortress came out years ago and thats how Renegade feels- outdated. The game should have been better. Whenever Team Fortress comes out I dont expect it to be as stale as Renegade.

DOD for me is far too realistic. I like the previous version of DOD. MOH can turn into sniper fest depending on who is playing and how the server is set up. That grenade in the new version of DOD is devastating though. I was a Beta Tester for the latest version of DOD and I feel they did a good job on the new version but the game is not for me. MOH is for me.

N30 I am burned out on UT. Did try a few of the UT mods a while back.

Of course you are going to find alot of players out there that like and even love Renegade, and then there are those who will not buy the game like myself. Another reason the game is not for me is because it doesn't reach far enough for its potential. The demo shuld have been better in all categories.

I wonder how many people designed this game Renegade. Anyone know? Yeah I know I could research it. Point is Ive seen FPS designed by a handful of people like 4 or 5 people and the graphics and game play makes Renegade look stale. One game(s) Im referring to is Team Factor and Kreed. Kreed not Breed. Breed is a different game but it looks good also.

Kind in mind my comments only reflect the demo multiplay aspect of Renegade. Single play may be a whole different matter.

DeRailer
23rd Feb 2002, 09:42 AM
I perfectly understands how you felt Dark Ranger. When i heard about MoH:AA to be released as a PC game last year, i was filled with hope. The boast of using gun's ironsight, prone position and teambase multiplayer all put under the feature list on the official website but alas, they either did not make it into the final version, or are poorly done. Thats a major disappointment for extreme realism fans like myself. They still have those features list under their site. :p Even the screenshot of the garand's ironsight is still there. For a team of 20+ people, i do expect those features to be completed, even if they have to delay the release.
As for renegade, i'm not so sure about the number of people working on the game, but i still felt the game's graphic department is well done. They got most of the animation done, from reloading animations of first person and 3rd person views, When troopers were hit they fell to the ground as they would in a movie. Smokes and explosion being exceptionally impressive if you raise the particles effect to the max. As a matter of fact, I've not seem another game engine that can handle so many explosions and special effects and yet runs well. For this, the renegade engine is impressive.

DeRailer
24th Feb 2002, 12:13 AM
another look at the engine:
I took this shot when I was reloading the rocket launcher; one weapon that I found to be the most beautiful weapon in the game together with the laser chaingun. Notice the attention paid to the textures on the weapon model, and how beautifully the weapon is craft. And most importantly, the model does not cause much drop in fps when equiped or when fired unlike other fps.

[tHG]Dark Ranger
27th Feb 2002, 06:17 PM
http://www.alloutgames.com/Reviews/renegade.html

The link above is a different review from the informaion below.


Here's why I say thumbs down on Renegade:

from a review..."For all its ambition, though, C&C: Renegade is not the breakthrough game it's namesake was. It is, in many ways, a very unpolished game; surprising considering it's been in development for 3 to 6 years (depending on who you ask). From graphics to story to sound, it's not hard to think of other games that have done almost every aspect of the game better. Even the best part of the game -- the ingenious team-based multiplayer mode -- ultimately serves to show how good this game could have been…but wasn't. "

Couldn't have said it better....

If UT2 can get the vehicles and map sizes down right: thumbs up

DeRailer
1st Mar 2002, 06:20 AM
It's all about opinions, Renegade is a hit or miss for most after hitting so many review sites, and most are judging heavily from Single Player, hell even I think Renegade's SP sux major a**. But I cannot agree with other opinions about MP other than my own it seems. So maybe to some point I've became bias, but of course that doesn't stop me from giving relevant points and materials.
A lot of review sites who gave this a bad review because of the SP sux although the MP rules, got themselves a pretty bad name. Look at how they review RTCW, a game in development for how many years? you guess. It's SP sux, as mentioned by most that did an extensive roundup and those who judge the game fairly, but nothing stops review site from giving the game a score of above 90% every time. Renegade in a way, seem to headed for the same direction, but was bashed because of graphic? Most of them did not even mention the engine's capabilty of rendering real huge maps in the SP without breaking down and hurting performence, most did not bother to explain how the new engine can render all those hundreds of model details in the SP as well. A lot of site those site reviewers did not even mention this is the FIRST game in particular that can render the most intensive particles effect in D3D video mode. This site review, is the more pathetic one: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/ but not the worst.
This game with MP alone is what I felt, can sell on it's own. The game got crap review, but nothing stops the gamers from buying it. EB had been reporting of insufficient stocks due to popular demands.
Sorry if I sound like too much of a fanboy(see sig :p). But Renegade is one of those very few thinking shooters that I can really get down with and enjoy since Tribes2. I also haven't had this much fun online since TFC and UT. Westwood will be providing free add ons in the future, and the first includes air vehicle from C&C. How can any refuse.

[tHG]Dark Ranger
1st Mar 2002, 10:50 PM
I think this conversation is pretty much dead...

Well I hope we dont have this conversation about UT2 when it comes out. Of course I dont think that will be the case, because UT2 will probably appeal to casual gamers all the way to the hardcore. You can never please everyone though..there's always going to be someone out there who's dissappointed.

DeRailer
1st Mar 2002, 11:53 PM
Ya, this is an endless topic. Just let it rest.
I'm confident that UT2 will not fail. DE listens to the community, there are bound to succed with the current UT community.

Trynant
3rd Mar 2002, 10:59 PM
I think none of you have played halo here. That's a game that shows you what a good FPS looks like and would have offered a fresh perspective on vehicles, outdoor environments, and current graphics of today. If DE does anything like Bungie, UT2 won't fail.

DeRailer
4th Mar 2002, 03:51 AM
I have, but was turned off by the controls. It'll be an excellent shooter for the PC, but with a controller as a Console primary input device, Bungie had reduced any intense actions occuring on the z-axis.

Trynant
4th Mar 2002, 02:50 PM
true, true.
The multiplayer level design is sloppy compared to UT and looking up and down is not an issue... but that's only for the console version.

Halo IS coming out for PC. There's no doubt about that.
Hmm... demos are only beta versions, I take Devil May Cry as an example. They changed a lot in the final version. But I don't think the real game of Renegade will change graphics if it's released soon.

Look at it this way. There's always U2.:cool:

[tHG]Dark Ranger
4th Mar 2002, 06:41 PM
I have played Halo and I think its decent- a good game. I was wrong about Halo and wrong about Renegade. I was way off on Halo. I thought Halo was not going live up to the harcore gamers expectations because the dev. kept pushing the release date back further and further...thats usually not a good sign when they keep delaying a game.

I never did think Renegade would measure up to Halo but I was hoping Renegade overall would have been much better than marginal. Just didnt happen for me.

Now UT2 is up to bat..........I expect way more from UT2 over its previous version UT.

A1 have a release date on Halo for the PC?......those Rumble(force feedback) effects for Halo on the Box rock!!! also.

Trynant
10th Mar 2002, 03:20 PM
those Rumble(force feedback) effects for Halo on the Box rock!!! also

no argument there.

Actually I'm more worried about the release date for U2... sheesh that STILL hasn't come out yet. I have to be stuck with halo and unreal tournament until some good games come out. Good luck beating the game on legendary :cool: .

[tHG]Dark Ranger
10th Mar 2002, 08:38 PM
U2= this Christmas for a release date.