wAreZ wAr (WhAt YoU wAnT vS. mOrAlS)

[Malkor]

Why do people even try to justify pirating software, games, etc...?

Lame Argument #1: It's too expensive! No way I can afford it! Why should I hafta pay if I can just get it for free.

Lame Argument #2: Why do you care? Its not like Im stealing it, its already been stolen, Im just downloading it like other people to use it.

Lame Argument #3: They arent losing anything! The distributors and dealers (stores) already payed them! So why should I care?

......

Good Reason not to PIRATE #1: You've stolen someone elses creativity without paying for it, Its illegal, you goto jail, 'nuff said.

[Cactus]

arrrgh... i'm the dread pirate robert...

[JTRipper]

How did they get that handcuff around your hook, Robert the Porky? ;)

[Chrysaor]

I suppose the argument I'd use is that I won't make any money off of their software, the reason they charge so much for it is because companies can make buttloads of cash by enhancing their product. I don't see my bank account swelling with the success of any of my maps.

This is all in consideration that I would ever d/l a warez program..:rolleyes:

[SpiritWalker]

But you have to understand that there are OUTRAGES increases in the profit margin.. for instance a CD.. (audio) costs LESS than $4 to manufacture.. and that includes shipping to the retailer.. now where I live a CD runs roughly $20.00 sometimes less like 16-18 depending on if if feel like hanging out at the Walmart ..
but still look at the profit margin..
sorry but I don't feel like paying almost 10 times the cost on some software.. take PC games.. UT when it came out what was it 49?.. now the UTGOTY version is 10.. why.. it's not like the game is any different?? well it's not selling as well... and that's the whole deal.. if people want something.. the other people that make it will get EVERYPENNY they can from you .. and THEN lower the price..
take RTCW.. 49.00 bucks.. bust buy prolly pays 19.. their suppliers pay prolly 13..
and on down the ladder...
mine works just fine.. 'cept I don't have a pretty lable

[JTRipper]

Some valid points, but a couple things neglected or not considered.

Chrysoar - not to imply you might ever consider DLing warez ;), but whether or not you ever make a buck off using it, they spent an enourmous amount of cash making it. I'll use a game as an example (not the same as Max, I know). A team of say 3 programmers, 3 artists, 5 level designers, and a producer to make an even dozen. Pretty small. Let's also say that the game is a year and a half in development, and the average production salary is about $60,000 (which it is). That's $1,080,000 in salaries, only for production salaries, and not giving the lead positions any more pay. No officers, accountants, financing, or any other overhead are counted there. Now, to look at a program like Max, the kind of 3d programmers they need are a trifle more than $60k (possibly double or triple that, not sure), and I have no idea what the development cycle is. No, they don't need level designers <g>, but you get the picture. So yes, they charge a whopping bundle of cash for it, but it's not just because it's targetted at folks who make money off it.

And Spiritwalker, those profits you refer to do a lot that you might not readily notice. The CD, and the profit margin in particular, is to thank for a lot of the music out today. Once upon a time, it was hideously hard to get a contract in the music business. If a company wasn't very sure they could at least break even on a band, there was no chance. When CD's first came out, there were a lot of problems in production, and the average run of CD's was almost $15 a disk to publish. I think you're old enough to remember when CD's were $25-$30 to buy. More reliable and cheaper ways to make them brought production costs down, but the price didn't come down in proportion. The result was that record companies were seeing a profit they never had before, and all of a sudden were able to start signing bands that would have been considered too great a risk before. They can continue to do this because of the CD profits.

[edit]Who's the liar who voted no? ;)

[fragswill]

I usually get warezed games on lans, just to be able to play with the rest.. but they have a habit of staying on the harddrive. :(

[oosyxxx]

Originally posted by fragswill
I usually get warezed games on lans, just to be able to play with the rest.. but they have a habit of staying on the harddrive. :(

LOL@the unhappy face.

[BangOut]

My twin brother likes warez.

[lucifix]

i would dl some, like the older fps games, if i didnt have a ****ty 56k, but people that get evey new game that comes out is only hurting the buisness and themselves in return........

[Frostblood]

Thats right. There is a huge markup, and for music it is just greedy. But a top quality game costs millions of dollars...most mods today ( let alone commercial games ) have 10-20 team members, they would all need to be payed £30,000+ per year, plus advertising, hardware/software ( v expensive ), publishing costs...many games nowadays don't actually make much profit, and just tide the team over until they hit the jackpot.

[Balton]

the music industry lost 30% of their income. now the say programs like napster or so are hurting them so hard. But infact its more the ****ty music that they are trying to make us buy! the top ten charts have 3 decent till good songs. the rest is some crap. So if they would throw all those no-talent musicians out and pay the good ones better... but than they wouldnt have enough money and the real artists would!


now abotu programs. some programs like maxx are too expensive as long as you dont make money with it. If you are good and know maxx you can produce animated movies iwth it or lots of other stuff. means such a license will pay-off! You as little home user who is learning this program will become a "possible customer". So someday you might pay... and that pays off!

[Balton]

Originally posted by Frostblood
Thats right. There is a huge markup, and for music it is just greedy. But a top quality game costs millions of dollars...most mods today ( let alone commercial games ) have 10-20 team members, they would all need to be payed £30,000+ per year, plus advertising, hardware/software ( v expensive ), publishing costs...many games nowadays don't actually make much profit, and just tide the team over until they hit the jackpot.

if you think a game is good buy the real version. So we will have the chance for other great games!

[Frostblood]

If the music industry kicked out all the manufactured bands, britneys and boy bands they would be left with almost nothing to make money with. Nu-metal and such makes up a small proportion of the charts, and most never gets in, while every pop band goes straigt to no 1...30 years ago they would have been laughed out of the studio.

[@kuma]

Imagine if you could warez crack & hookers.....

the world would be a safer place for all mankind

Uh - warezing games is bad, k?

[Balton]

Originally posted by Frostblood
If the music industry kicked out all the manufactured bands, britneys and boy bands they would be left with almost nothing to make money with. Nu-metal and such makes up a small proportion of the charts, and most never gets in, while every pop band goes straigt to no 1...30 years ago they would have been laughed out of the studio.

britney and boy bands are supposed to be for teenies. Later they will buy hip hop this gangster rap **** or even worser stuff alá Sarah Connor :mad: Sorry, but these "manufactured" bands wont bring in new styles concerning music or anything else. They are jsut brining some made up synth loops with some half whakcy vocals and ofcourse "fashy" clothes. oh yeah, the better manufactured bands are covering songs from old legends. Im my opinion there has to be a limit for all this popy crap. I might sounds very nihilistic but thats not true... maybe I show you a lsit of my mp3s ( oh-oh ) to convince you. Btw. band s like radiohead or smashing pumpkins are deserving much more attention than a britney. Britney is jsut so often on the screen cos she has a top body!

[Balton]

Originally posted by @kuma
Imagine if you could warez crack & hookers.....

the world would be a safer place for all mankind

Uh - warezing games is bad, k?

crack & hooker = drugs and payed girls? LOL

about warezing games. dling roms is warezing games too :p

[Frostblood]

I couldn't agree more!

People always say that rock music is damaging to children but the constant exposure to pop music does far more damage...it gives entirely the wrong impression, that looks and fashion are all that matter...and that the best thing you can do with your life is sing someone elses songs badly...whereas I can't see how anything other than the most satanic heavy metal which is a tiny majority could harm anyone...

[@kuma]

abandonware aka roms/old games is a different thing

its not black & white otherwise there would be clear legal precedents (spelling?) governing it & the Whiter Than White GSI wouldn't be running ClassicGaming.com

as it is, if a game's no longer availible through retail or from the publisher then I see no reason for not downloading it. There's no loss of revenue to the manufacturors of the game, the only people who lose out are the re-sellers and guys on ebay... Cry me a river :p

[Frostblood]

Of course, nooone would dispute that if it is nolonger available then its not wrong.

[Balton]

Originally posted by @kuma
abandonware aka roms/old games is a different thing

its not black & white otherwise there would be clear legal precedents (spelling?) governing it & the Whiter Than White GSI wouldn't be running ClassicGaming.com

as it is, if a game's no longer availible through retail or from the publisher then I see no reason for not downloading it. There's no loss of revenue to the manufacturors of the game, the only people who lose out are the re-sellers and guys on ebay... Cry me a river :p


hehe, I didnt cry. I played all those old games on slot machines in italy. Each bar has those arcade slot machines. And a bar down there is more where you drink in the morning your capucino and something small to eat. Where the kids buy their ice cream or chewing gums or those tiny chips bags. where the old mans are sitting reading newspapers and smoking where in the summer the tourists are trying to order something in an awful italian(no no not me I quite speak it well)
and ofcourse the night life! I played the whole metal slug serie in such a bar! And ofcouse lots of flipper machines and some old stuff. mainly capcom neogeo and snk. All good!

btw. do you know where I might find the bucky o'hare rom???

[Rabid Wolf]

Originally posted by @kuma
and guys on ebay... Cry me a river :p
truer words were never spoken

[JTRipper]

Originally posted by Frostblood
People always say that rock music is damaging to children but the constant exposure to pop music does far more damage...it gives entirely the wrong impression, that looks and fashion are all that matter...and that the best thing you can do with your life is sing someone elses songs badly

I thought the lesson was that if you had the firmest butt at the audition, you'd get tits and money for dancing in tight clothes? Damn, if I can't keep it straight, how are kids supposed to?

[StoneViper]

everything on my HDD is either been warezed or duplicated from an someones official cd.

[JTRipper]

That's not the question. Do you think it's alright that everything on your drive is warezed?

[Chrysaor]

hehe, Never fear! GMax is here!

[StoneViper]

Originally posted by JTRipper
That's not the question. Do you think it's alright that everything on your drive is warezed?

oh absolutelly. Photoshop is business class software. It was meant for businesses buying it to use it professionally. whether or not i use the program at home for personal use they won't be getting any more money for it anyway. The same goes for 3dsmax.

If you are asking me if it is wrong for businesses to warez them then yes, it is wrong, for morals sake anyway. I mean the business will be making money off of it, that is why you may pay 600 dollars for 100mb worth of photoshop.

[StoneViper]

Originally posted by Chrysaor
hehe, Never fear! GMax is here!
yeah i have that too, the reason it's free is because they left out key components 3dsmax has. like reading, importing, and exporting certain kind of modelling files needed for very high quality professional modeling; the kind software companies must have and use.

[Dai]

gaymax suckshttp://forums.beyondunreal.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

[Hourences]

just download everything you find, except Unreal 2 :)

[fragswill]

I download a lot of mp3s, but if there's something i like i buy the cd. My music consumption has increased a lot since i got adsl.

[Rabid Wolf]

Originally posted by Balton.de



hehe, I didnt cry. I played all those old games on slot machines in italy. Each bar has those arcade slot machines. And a bar down there is more where you drink in the morning your capucino and something small to eat. Where the kids buy their ice cream or chewing gums or those tiny chips bags. where the old mans are sitting reading newspapers and smoking where in the summer the tourists are trying to order something in an awful italian(no no not me I quite speak it well)
and ofcourse the night life! I played the whole metal slug serie in such a bar! And ofcouse lots of flipper machines and some old stuff. mainly capcom neogeo and snk. All good!

btw. do you know where I might find the bucky o'hare rom???
aaaah, yes, the wonderful world of the "sala giochi"s...

as of the o'hare rom:
which do you mean? the arcade version or the nes version?
the arcade I don't know where to get, but it was an old konami mc68k machine, I'm not quite sure what you'd run that on nowadays anyway.
the nes rom I got myself if you need it.

[Frostblood]

Since I started getting mp3's my CD purchases have increased as well...I think the whole file sharing concept could be good for the music industry if only they played it propaly...like releasing a few tracks as MP3 pre-release and cutting costs by a few £ an album...they would have orders flooding in, especially if they used the ad campaigns they like so much, and it would be better for the consumer as well.

[SaintBeam]

As long as people refuse to make the necessary distinctions between:
1. wanting to pay for.
2.being able to pay for.
3.being able to afford to pay for.
4.The presumed loss based on not recieving payment for, even though nothing was actually lost.
5. And whether the legal aspect of the issue is the definitive "say so" on the matter.
And unless one is willing to address these differences individually, there will be no agreement on the issue.

Q and A.
The bottom line considerations for me on this issue are intent, harm and "the golden rule".
1.Is it my intent to cheat someone out of something?: No.
2.Am I harming or causing loss to anyone?: No.
3.Would I be alright with someone doing the same thing to me under the same circumstance?: Yes.
It would therefore be illogical for me to consider it wrong.
Why bring up God in the issue?: The question of entitlement was raised which in my case is directly connected to the blood sworn covenant promises of God's word. That of course is a seperate issue altogether.

[RedEye(Co30)]

and guys on ebay... Cry me a river

Hey! I'm a starving student, and selling Mechwarrior 3: Pirate's Moon on ebay got me a month's worth of groceries. Thereby preventing me from having to scavenge through dumpsters or even worse, come to your house and beg. ;)

[@kuma]

ok, ok now you've gone and made me feel guilty by putting a human face to the machine

I do care... but not that much :p

[Flatliner]

Originally posted by Balton.de

now abotu programs. some programs like maxx are too expensive as long as you dont make money with it. If you are good and know maxx you can produce animated movies iwth it or lots of other stuff. means such a license will pay-off! You as little home user who is learning this program will become a "possible customer". So someday you might pay... and that pays off!

True

What annoys me about corporations: You buy a program or game on CD and cant copy it. (This alone violates the EULA on their part for not letting you make a copy of the software) Yet if the CD gets buggered, you have to pay a fee for the replacement or then rebut the software. The only around this is to break the copy protection.

Before the companys can question someone with warez morals, they had better sure as hell question theirs.

Small producers are more deserving of getting pay.

[Malkor]

I don't think being a gigantic company or being a small business matters, you pirate software, someone is losing out! How would you like someone to steal your class work and call it their own, or copy your project for class? Not a very good feeling I bet, eh?

For 3D Studio max r3 (current version), which is several thousand dollars ($USdom), just think about how hard that development team had to work in order to make a program that creats 3D objects on a whim! Think about the cost of their developmental research it took to discover and engineer the technologies in order to bring you that faboulous new piece of pirated software you have just installed. Same thing with Adobe Photoshop 6 (current version), and Flash 5 (current version). There are so many pirated softwares out there on the net, I'm sure it is tempting, but just think, FBI is tracking your ass and its just a matter of time until it catches up to you, your mistakes always catch up to you. I know -> 6am March 17, 2001, FBI woke me up with a gun in my face, b/c I let users on mIRC use my PC as a dump for anything and everything they wanted, lemme tell you though man that was the scariest **** in my life! Everyday I wake up afraid the FBI is gonna come charging in to take me away for 30 years. As of right now the investigation is still undergoing, so I don't know what's going to happen to me. Proxies, Firewalls, Shell Accounts, none of those protect you adequately enough...what do you expect? The FBI knows everything! They knew everything about me! If you dont believe me goto the FBI website ( http://www.fbi.gov ) and request your FBI file....I think they might charge you $10 for the processing, but you have the right to request it, they'll send it to you, and you'll be suprised whats in there. Stuff you thought only you knew about. No joke!

I personally have registered my Winzip, my WinRar, my StuffIT! Expander, my Netscape 6 (POS that it is though... ;) ) and all my other programs. I DO have 3D Studio Max r3, but I obtained it legally. I have Bryce 5, again legally. The list goes on. I have over $17,000 worth of legal software that I have either purchased the license my self, or my company has for me.

For all you wArEz fiends out there, instead of sitting in front of your computer 24/7 365, get off your lazy asses, get a job, finish school (if applicable) earn money via a career (job, hobby, etc...) and buy the software!

[StoneViper]

Originally posted by Hourences
just download everything you find, except Unreal 2 :)

i forgot to mention. i have respect for certain games. All unreal games i buy

[StoneViper]

Originally posted by Frostblood
Since I started getting mp3's my CD purchases have increased as well...I think the whole file sharing concept could be good for the music industry if only they played it propaly...like releasing a few tracks as MP3 pre-release and cutting costs by a few £ an album...they would have orders flooding in, especially if they used the ad campaigns they like so much, and it would be better for the consumer as well.

i've never heard anyone say it better than you. i agree totally!

Originally posted by Flatliner

...

What annoys me about corporations: You buy a program or game on CD and cant copy it. (This alone violates the EULA on their part for not letting you make a copy of the software) Yet if the CD gets buggered, you have to pay a fee for the replacement or then rebut the software. The only around this is to break the copy protection.

Before the companys can question someone with warez morals, they had better sure as hell question theirs.

Small producers are more deserving of getting pay.

there are always crackers for copy protection. everything has been cracked before the initial public release. i always use Nero for copying cd's with high copy protection. it failed me once where clonecd then took over. cdrwin is also a great burning utility. These programs will always copy the full cd, even the cd protection: a true duplicate of the original. If it fails you i will be surprised. They have always work for me.

[BangOut]

I pay for about 1/2 the games I own. I paid for Win2k. The rest is warez. It 0wnzme.

[StoneViper]

Originally posted by BangOut
I pay for about 1/2 the games I own. I paid for Win2k. The rest is warez. It 0wnzme.
yeah i bought winME, but bootlegged win2K and winXP. i thought at first that official means better as far as operating systems go. i think i was wrong.

[JTRipper]

Originally posted by Flatliner
What annoys me about corporations: You buy a program or game on CD and cant copy it. (This alone violates the EULA on their part for not letting you make a copy of the software) Yet if the CD gets buggered, you have to pay a fee for the replacement or then rebut the software. The only around this is to break the copy protection.

Before the companys can question someone with warez morals, they had better sure as hell question theirs.

"Corporations" are actually aside from your point, and that's something I never thought of. But you're right.

I don't follow you on the small producers thing though. Care to elaborate?

[lucifix]

Originally posted by Frostblood
Since I started getting mp3's my CD purchases have increased as well...I think the whole file sharing concept could be good for the music industry if only they played it propaly...like releasing a few tracks as MP3 pre-release and cutting costs by a few £ an album...they would have orders flooding in, especially if they used the ad campaigns they like so much, and it would be better for the consumer as well. honestly since i got my pc, nov. 01, i havent bought a single cd........and having a cd burner helped too ;)

[Malkor]

Originally posted by BangOut
I pay for about 1/2 the games I own. I paid for Win2k. The rest is warez. It 0wnzme.

If you're not careful the FBI is gonna 0wnze you! Serious...

[Frostblood]

I hardly think they would be concerned with that, they have more important things to do, like tracking down aliens and sentient viruses and such like...

Also, you are allowed to make one copy for backup purposes. It says so in the liscense info on most games.

[BangOut]

Then I'm playing with everyone's backup copy :rolleyes:

[JTRipper]

Originally posted by Frostblood
I hardly think they would be concerned with that, they have more important things to do, like tracking down aliens and sentient viruses and such like...

Also, you are allowed to make one copy for backup purposes. It says so in the liscense info on most games.


We've been shipping you Brits too much of our TV. ;)

That's what [edit]not RW, Flatliner[/rdit] said, his point was that copy protecting it to prevent you from backing it up is a violation of thier own EULA.

[Claw]

Originally posted by The Spiritwalker
But you have to understand that there are OUTRAGES increases in the profit margin.. for instance a CD.. (audio) costs LESS than $4 to manufacture.. and that includes shipping to the retailer.. now where I live a CD runs roughly $20.00 sometimes less like 16-18 depending on if if feel like hanging out at the Walmart ..
but still look at the profit margin..
sorry but I don't feel like paying almost 10 times the cost on some software.. take PC games.. UT when it came out what was it 49?.. now the UTGOTY version is 10.. why.. it's not like the game is any different?? well it's not selling as well... and that's the whole deal.. if people want something.. the other people that make it will get EVERYPENNY they can from you .. and THEN lower the price..
take RTCW.. 49.00 bucks.. bust buy prolly pays 19.. their suppliers pay prolly 13..
and on down the ladder...
mine works just fine.. 'cept I don't have a pretty lable

That's why I usually buy old games - unless I really want one.
You didn't say it straight, but it kinda sounds like you favour warez. Isn't that odd for a capitalist? I mean, complaining about the industry pressing every penny they can get out of the customers... that's their prerogative.
Breaking the law isn't yours though.

I think different of course. The customers and the companies are more or less at war, and both sides will take to illegal or unethical methods if they think it's worth the risk; it has been proved countless times including many 'respectable' companies.

Besides, I bought such an awful lot of bad progs, running unstable, data loss, etc. and when I find one prog won't work on my rig or isn't at all like promised, that's my problem entirely.

[Flatliner]

Originally posted by Malkor
I don't think being a gigantic company or being a small business matters, you pirate software, someone is losing out! How would you like someone to steal your class work and call it their own, or copy your project for class? Not a very good feeling I bet, eh?

I personally have registered my Winzip, my WinRar, my StuffIT! Expander, my Netscape 6 (POS that it is though... ;) ) and all my other programs. I DO have 3D Studio Max r3, but I obtained it legally. I have Bryce 5, again legally. The list goes on. I have over $17,000 worth of legal software that I have either purchased the license my self, or my company has for me.

For all you wArEz fiends out there, instead of sitting in front of your computer 24/7 365, get off your lazy asses, get a job, finish school (if applicable) earn money via a career (job, hobby, etc...) and buy the software!

Someone stealing a project is plagiarism, I am sure that they are not trying to sell it to you, unless you are buying it off them. And besides, how common is it to share the resources that you use for a project? If someone cheats of a test or project that you have so be it, thats upto them, not my worry.

"wArEz fiends", meaning me? If so - How does this apply to me when I was expressing an opinion, I agree that software should be purchased, I just dont like big corporations none. As for sitting in front of the computer all day, I certainly do not have the time required to use every program that I could possibly buy to the value of $1,000, let alone $17,000. I dont have the time.

Finish school - Already qualified for Client Support, end of this year I will be a fully qualified Network Engineer.
Get a job? Never worked for anyone in my life and that is why I have my own business.
I will spend my money on the software that I want and use, not run around buying every bit of software that I see. If a business gets me a copy of something, then thats good.

Originally posted by JTRipper
"Corporations" are actually aside from your point, and that's something I never thought of. But you're right.

I don't follow you on the small producers thing though. Care to elaborate?

Sort of like the Robbin Hood concept, give to the poor I guess. You would want to pay some one that depends on the income, rather than someone who already gets a pre-determined wage for a living by working for a company. That and the software is usually cheaper (can be better too), seems like these companys have more of an idea of fairness to the customer.

A bit like the small shop down the road, you would rather support it than some large chain of shops.

Thats what I think anyway.

[jreister]

I think there is a difference with playing around with 3DStudioMax to create an object for a map and working with that program commercially. Most copied programs usually are lying around somewhere collecting dust. I would always buy a good game like UT or Unreal 2 but I won´t buy 9000$ for some trying on Maya.

[JTRipper]

Originally posted by Flatliner
Sort of like the Robbin Hood concept, give to the poor I guess. You would want to pay some one that depends on the income, rather than someone who already gets a pre-determined wage for a living by working for a company. That and the software is usually cheaper (can be better too), seems like these companys have more of an idea of fairness to the customer.

A bit like the small shop down the road, you would rather support it than some large chain of shops.

Thats what I think anyway.

That's what I thought, thanks for the clarification though. The only reason that person gets a pre-determined wage (and in some cases, royalties) is that the company is able to recover R&D costs when people buy the project. It's true that a coder or two in thier spare time can turn out small and even not-so-small quality programs cheaper. I absolutely agree that thier time & contribution deserves to be paid, and my hat's off to your support of indepent devs. I just think that companies who have shelled out cash to make something deserve to make the cash back (and a profit). Er, assuming it's not crap, that is.

[@kuma]

6am March 17, 2001, FBI woke me up with a gun in my face,

If it's true then it's more likely to do with kiddy porn than ripped copies of photoshop

[Hourences]

fbi for warez, lol, and certainly not for 10 gig or something, 10 gig is nothing, 50 is nothing, 200 gig or more starts too be a bit

[Malkor]

Well, let's just say your guess was somewhat right, I can't keep track of everything that got put on my server, also, I had 5 40 gig HDD I used in conjunction with my server so... :-/.

It's been about 6 months now, no word yet...I'm hoping they forgot about me due to the 9-11 travesties.

[Flatliner]

I'll tell you what is the absolute worst though, when a shop sells pirated stuff.

ie. they will copy their movies/software and still sell them full price so as to make a ridiculous profit. But the stuff that they are selling is basically worthless, it just rips off both the consumer and the maufacturer. The people that do this are the worst :mad: